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nomotog wrote:
Well that's the worlds themselves. Worlds that almost go rouge just by talking with the tau. Talking with the IoM it's self, it's SMs, it's IG, its IN. That is where things get hard. Some times they can work things out temporary. Some times... Well there is a reason that tau diplomats wear shields.
Really I think we can define withstanding as: After the fleet is gone, the tau are living on the tau home world. If they can manage that, that should count as withstanding.

Then no. By that definition they can not withstand a Nid invasion.

Could a Vindicare defeat an Eversor in battle? Not if you made him stand there and try and punch it out.

CpatTom wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Well that's the worlds themselves. Worlds that almost go rouge just by talking with the tau. Talking with the IoM it's self, it's SMs, it's IG, its IN. That is where things get hard. Some times they can work things out temporary. Some times... Well there is a reason that tau diplomats wear shields.
Really I think we can define withstanding as: After the fleet is gone, the tau are living on the tau home world. If they can manage that, that should count as withstanding.

Then no. By that definition they can not withstand a Nid invasion.

Could a Vindicare defeat an Eversor in battle? Not if you made him stand there and try and punch it out.

That analogy doesn't work, because the Vindicare would kill the Eversor at range, not run away with his Executor pistol bewteen his legs.

You are forcing the Tau to fight a way that they wouldn't normally fight to fit the parameters of a question.

That is exactly the same thing.

Edit: Now throw an IG blob behind the Vindcare and what would he do? Hopefully fall back behind the wall of expendable idiots with sticks and let them take care of it, or mop up if they cant.

CpatTom wrote:You are forcing the Tau to fight a way that they wouldn't normally fight to fit the parameters of a question.

That is exactly the same thing.

You used the analogy of a Vindicare slugging it out with an Eversor. The Vindicare would fight at range, with his rifle. A Tau army would fight at range, with its guns. The analogy does work. Your conclusions of running away don't, as neither would do that (a Vindicare would not fight in melee or run, Tau would not run giving up their homeworlds). Remember the Tau philosophy of life - it is better to burn short and bright. Running is not doing that.

The Tau have no problems fighting Tyranids, so don't take it as people giving Tau gak. As it says in the Tyranid codex, they did fight off a minor hive fleet, even if it was with the help of the Imperium. The problem with fighting a main hive fleet is the sheer size of it. Behemoth was a the smallest of the major hive fleets, and look what it dod to the Ultima Segmentum!

The Taus problem with fighting a major hive fleet is there simply are not enough Tau.

First the Tau wouldn't attract a larger Hive Fleet due to the dampened warp presence. So, there goes that to begin with.

I'm pretty sure the Tau philosophy of life is service to the Greater Good. And running from the big hungry mob is in fact doing that: No Tau, no Greater Good.

Remember the Tau Philosophy of war: "The Mont'ka is a carefully planned attack designed to wipe out critical enemy defenses or units in single, well-placed strikes. Once the strongest points of enemy resistance are crushed, the remainder of the force can generally be finished off more easily. The Kauyon is essentially an ambush, where the enemy is drawn by use of a "lure" into a carefully prepared killing zones."

Mont'ka would require an ability to destroy the hive mind with a precise strike at a singular point. Under Current fluff that is out, unless there is someway to kill a Hive Mind I'm unaware of.

Kauyon it is then, so fall back, set traps, fall back, set traps... Fall back behind the IoM. Invent terraforming tech. Rebuild the Tau Empire if you really wanted to. (Although I doubt they would unless they awoke the Necrons, then they would probably run away, again).

CpatTom wrote:First the Tau wouldn't attract a larger Hive Fleet due to the dampened warp presence. So, there goes that to begin with.

Hive fleets simply devour everything in their path, so a dampened warp presence means nothing if they happen to be in the path.

CpatTom wrote:I'm pretty sure the Tau philosophy of life is service to the Greater Good. And running from the big hungry mob is in fact doing that: No Tau, no Greater Good.

They are also communists. As we have learned from history, communist nations tend to sacrifice large numbers of their populace for the "greater good".

CpatTom wrote:Kauyon it is then, so fall back, set traps, fall back, set traps... Fall back behind the IoM. Invent terraforming tech. Rebuild the Tau Empire if you really wanted to. (Although I doubt they would unless they awoke the Necrons, then they would probably run away, again).

The Tau are on the eastern fringe. The majority of the existing hive fleets have come from galactic east, they would have to fight through the IOM in order to hide behind it.

CpatTom wrote:First the Tau wouldn't attract a larger Hive Fleet due to the dampened warp presence. So, there goes that to begin with.

Where do you get the idea warp prescence is what draws Tyranids? Food does. Ripe, juicy planets ready to be eaten. They send vanguard forces (ie Lictors and Genestealer broods) all over the galaxy, which then tells the Tyranids where the best food is. A cluster of over a hundred munchable worlds will attract a big hive fleet eventually. They've been lucky so far that it hasn't.

The fluff about the astronomican attracting them is new, and not all encompassing.

Orblivion wrote:
1. Hive fleets simply devour everything in their path, so a dampened warp presence means nothing if they happen to be in the path.

2. They are also communists. As we have learned from history, communist nations tend to sacrifice large numbers of their populace for the "greater good".

3. The Tau are on the eastern fringe. The majority of the existing hive fleets have come from galactic east, they would have to fight through the IOM in order to hide behind it.

1. They are attracted to the Astronomicon's warp presence(Nid Codex IIRC, so I dont want to believe it cause it is new isnt a very good argument), as well Nids are put off by blanks (For The Emperor, Bl, not sure if this is corroborated anywhere, but I dont know anywhere it is contradicted as well), so it would not be unreasonable to think that the Nids prefer tasty meats with psychic presences (I think its cause the Nids can hear them scream on the insides, tastier that way).

2.They aren't Communists. "Communism is a social, political and economic movement that aims at the establishment of a classless and stateless communist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production." They have a caste system, and a governmental structure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism.

3. The IoM is not going to waste resource attempting to shoot down all the Tau in the face of a full Hive Fleet Nid invasion. Why would they do that? That is not sound military strategy. You don't start a war before you have to fight a war. The fact that these Nid guys keep trampling through my yard is a good enough reason for the Tau to move for me.

CpatTom wrote:

Orblivion wrote:
1. Hive fleets simply devour everything in their path, so a dampened warp presence means nothing if they happen to be in the path.

2. They are also communists. As we have learned from history, communist nations tend to sacrifice large numbers of their populace for the "greater good".

3. The Tau are on the eastern fringe. The majority of the existing hive fleets have come from galactic east, they would have to fight through the IOM in order to hide behind it.

1. They are attracted to the Astronomicon's warp presence(Nid Codex IIRC, so I dont want to believe it cause it is new isnt a very good argument), as well Nids are put off by blanks (For The Emperor, Bl, not sure if this is corroborated anywhere, but I dont know anywhere it is contradicted as well), so it would not be unreasonable to think that the Nids prefer tasty meats with psychic presences (I think its cause the Nids can hear them scream on the insides, tastier that way).

2.They aren't Communists. "Communism is a social, political and economic movement that aims at the establishment of a classless and stateless communist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production." They have a caste system, and a governmental structure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism.

3. The IoM is not going to waste resource attempting to shoot down all the Tau in the face of a full Hive Fleet Nid invasion. Why would they do that? That is not sound military strategy. You don't start a war before you have to fight a war. The fact that these Nid guys keep trampling through my yard is a good enough reason for the Tau to move for me.

1. Point still stands. If the hive fleet's path towards the Astronomican takes them past the Tau homeworld, it will not be ignored.

2. And yet as far as I know they have been designed with historical communist nation parallels.

3. The IOM is a religion based government, sound military strategy is not going to take precedence over "purge the xenos". Specific commanders might make concessions to ignore a xenos threat in light of a larger xenos threat during combat situations, but if we're talking about the bulk of the Tau race moving into IOM territory, there is no way it will be tolerated.

1. True, they will eat them if they go that way.
2. Draigo isn't Sysiphus.

3. Fine, they would attack the Tau, because the IoM is commanded by failed tactical minds. The Tau would fight with desperation to break contact, and eventually escape.

The Nids have a field day with an unprepared IoM, and would gain the Bio-mass momentum (Especcially considering the tau did nothing to slow them through their system, because the IoM was never going to let them through, so the Tau would need the Nids right on their tail) to make a legitimate push towards Terra. Forces would have to be recalled to deal with the Nid threat. Now the Imperium lacks the power to exert its influence over a large portion of the Galaxy, and the differing forces fighting against it expand their spheres of control.

Or the IoM drafts an agreement with the Tau to allow for passage to somewhere better than the IoM wants to give up, but worse than the Tau want, in the promise that Tau forces will contest their own worlds slowing the Hive Fleet and allowing for the Imperium to set up successful defenses. This would reduces the Imperium strain dealing with the Nid threat, and allows for the relocation of the Tau Empire somewhere that the IoM has a hand in choosing.

The IoM has a lot of experience with politics and military engagements. They would probably have some smart guys on this one.

CpatTom wrote:1. They are attracted to the Astronomicon's warp presence(Nid Codex IIRC, so I dont want to believe it cause it is new isnt a very good argument), as well Nids are put off by blanks (For The Emperor, Bl, not sure if this is corroborated anywhere, but I dont know anywhere it is contradicted as well), so it would not be unreasonable to think that the Nids prefer tasty meats with psychic presences (I think its cause the Nids can hear them scream on the insides, tastier that way).

There's only 2 hive fleets that have paid attantion to the astronomican, Scylla and Charybdis, which are heading right for it. All other hive fleets are doing their own thing.

Black Library isn't really a good source for fluff, since authors do their own thing. In studio material, Tyranids have made no distinctions between psychic and non-psychic prey. They don't hunt by psychic prescence, they follow their vanguards, which assess biomass levels and target defenses.

They hear the psychic scream because the hive mind sits in the warp. They basically see the same thing navigators do. There's nothing to dissuade Tyranids from the Tau Empire. The reasons they haven't been wiped out by a huge hive fleet is plot armour, nothing more. If they were wiped out by Gorgon, GW wouldn't have a model range to sell.

Let's agree on the following:
1.) We could imagine a Hive Fleet so big it will swallow the galaxy in whole, posing a problem to all reaces living there.
2.) We could imaging a Hive Fleet so small that any decent military can deal with it.

Orblivion wrote:They are also communists. As we have learned from history, communist nations tend to sacrifice large numbers of their populace for the "greater good".

Let's put it politely: Your knowledge on Tau equals your knowledge on history/politics

Kroothawk wrote:Let's agree on the following:
1.) We could imagine a Hive Fleet so big it will swallow the galaxy in whole, posing a problem to all reaces living there.
2.) We could imaging a Hive Fleet so small that any decent military can deal with it.

Orblivion wrote:They are also communists. As we have learned from history, communist nations tend to sacrifice large numbers of their populace for the "greater good".

Let's put it politely: Your knowledge on Tau equals your knowledge on history/politics

I'll admit my knowledge of the Tau is rudimentary at best.

But are you suggesting that the Soviet Union didn't sacrifice wall after wall of conscripted bodies at the Nazi's in WW2? US casualties in WW2 estimated at just under half a million, same for the UK. Russian casualties are estimated at around 26 million. It is estimated that 13 million of those casualties were civilians, but how many of the 13 million "military" casualties were conscripts given nothing more than a uniform and a direction to run in? Now I will grant you that the Soviet Union did not follow the true meaning of communism, but that is how they labeled themselves, and therefore that is how they will be remembered.

Nids are attracted to warp presence. It's part of how they tell dead rocks from living planets. It's also used with gene stealers. A stealer cult acts a warp beacon to a hive fleet. Tau having low warp might help, but it would help a lot more if they did regular testing for gene stealers and moving them to dead planets to act as a giant flank.

You can talk all you want about tau being Communist and communist being bla bla bla, but it is the case that tau value life. They value there peoples lives they even value the lives of there enemies.

Orblivion wrote:But are you suggesting that the Soviet Union didn't sacrifice wall after wall of conscripted bodies at the Nazi's in WW2?

I am suggesting that Tau are no communists. Maybe have a look at my sig

BTW there are other communist states beside the USSR. And UK and USA weren't invaded by a foreign army during WW2 to be fair, so civilian casualties (and victims to a cold winter) were naturally lower. That said, I am not disputing that Stalin and Hitler had a low respect for the lifes of their own soldiers.

nomotog wrote:Nids are attracted to warp presence. It's part of how they tell dead rocks from living planets. It's also used with gene stealers. A stealer cult acts a warp beacon to a hive fleet. Tau having low warp might help, but it would help a lot more if they did regular testing for gene stealers and moving them to dead planets to act as a giant flank.

You can talk all you want about tau being Communist and communist being bla bla bla, but it is the case that tau value life. They value there peoples lives they even value the lives of there enemies.

It still won't stop the Tyranids from being attracted to the Tau. Genestealers are the way good targets are found. Look at how Kryptman re-directed Leviathan, the concentration of Genestealers attracted the fleet, because that signifies a good source of food. When the time comes, the Tau's high concentration of edible planets will be a veritable banquet.

Orblivion wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Let's agree on the following:
1.) We could imagine a Hive Fleet so big it will swallow the galaxy in whole, posing a problem to all reaces living there.
2.) We could imaging a Hive Fleet so small that any decent military can deal with it.

Orblivion wrote:They are also communists. As we have learned from history, communist nations tend to sacrifice large numbers of their populace for the "greater good".

Let's put it politely: Your knowledge on Tau equals your knowledge on history/politics

I'll admit my knowledge of the Tau is rudimentary at best.

But are you suggesting that the Soviet Union didn't sacrifice wall after wall of conscripted bodies at the Nazi's in WW2? US casualties in WW2 estimated at just under half a million, same for the UK. Russian casualties are estimated at around 26 million. It is estimated that 13 million of those casualties were civilians, but how many of the 13 million "military" casualties were conscripts given nothing more than a uniform and a direction to run in? Now I will grant you that the Soviet Union did not follow the true meaning of communism, but that is how they labeled themselves, and therefore that is how they will be remembered.

Of which roughly 4,5 millions were POWs ( of which roughly 3 millions died ). Even the 13 millions figure is possibly inflated. Other sources give 11 millions ( Mikhalev ) or even "just" 9 millions.
Contrary to popular belief the Red Army wasn't full of ill trained conscripts which were nothing but cannonfodder. This picture might hold true in the most desperate phase of catastrophical losses during the early war but that's it. Compare that to total number of German and Soviet military deaths, roughly 5,5 millions for germany, which does exclude the german allies ( italy, hunary, romania and Finland add roughly another million together ). While the difference in casualties is still considerable one has to keep in mind that a large part of these casualties happened in 1941, when the red army was severaly unprepared to counter the Wehrmacht's thrust into the SU ( the german wiki states alone 3 million casualties and 3 million pows for Barbarossa alone ).

The Soviet Union, USSR ( union of socialist soviet republics ) called itself, as the name implies, a socialist republic and not a communist one because otherwise
the dictatorial regime would have been hard pressed to rationalise it's very existence.

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:Nids are attracted to warp presence. It's part of how they tell dead rocks from living planets. It's also used with gene stealers. A stealer cult acts a warp beacon to a hive fleet. Tau having low warp might help, but it would help a lot more if they did regular testing for gene stealers and moving them to dead planets to act as a giant flank.

You can talk all you want about tau being Communist and communist being bla bla bla, but it is the case that tau value life. They value there peoples lives they even value the lives of there enemies.

It still won't stop the Tyranids from being attracted to the Tau. Genestealers are the way good targets are found. Look at how Kryptman re-directed Leviathan, the concentration of Genestealers attracted the fleet, because that signifies a good source of food. When the time comes, the Tau's high concentration of edible planets will be a veritable banquet.

Ok I don't get exactly what you mean. You seem to agree that fleets are attracted to genestealers and that you can redirect a fleet, but that won't help?

CpatTom wrote:
Tau leaders would figure some way to get the IoM involved in fending off the hive fleet. Given that a Hive fleet the size posed in the problem above would, as the Emperor's Faithful on Dakka have pointed out, either eat through the Tau Empire and threaten the eastern fringe of Man, or chase the Tau into the Imperium, where all the tasty alternatives to blue men are.

So, Tau pick up. Stop by to say high to the Ultramarines, and then make a bee line to another fringe of the Galaxy that the IoM will have to leave undefended to turn back the tide of Tyranid approaching from the east.

The Tau take the long game.

Why would Imperium help Tau?
Last time Ethereal tried to talk with Space Marine he got his head blown up, and he didn't even ask one question.


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Orblivion wrote:
They are also communists. As we have learned from history, communist nations tend to sacrifice large numbers of their populace for the "greater good".

Tau are communist but only ideologically. Peace, unity, equality and tolerance are all the main stream of communist ideology + let all of us work toward the "Grater Good" of the galaxy - like people in USSR or Yugoslavia worked together toward Grater Good of their nations.
Tau would never sacrifice million of troopers like Imperium does to save billions of citizens. They would just flee all together and find new place to live.

Brother Coa wrote:
Tau are communist but only ideologically. Peace, unity, equality and tolerance are all the main stream of communist ideology

The Tau don't want equality.

CpatTom wrote:First the Tau wouldn't attract a larger Hive Fleet due to the dampened warp presence. So, there goes that to begin with.

nomotog wrote:Nids are attracted to warp presence.

Not really. Do they care for the empyrean, the warp itself? If nids chased warp presence, every demonic infestation would attract them.

Nids care only for one thing and thats bio-mass.

Densly packed clusters of inhabitable worlds are a major target for nids.
The Tau empire provides that.
Thus the hivemind will sooner or later come for dinner.
The idea of re-direction works if you have to deal with small splinters. A hungry fully blown fleet may just eat everything in its path.

nomotog wrote:
Ok I don't get exactly what you mean. You seem to agree that fleets are attracted to genestealers and that you can redirect a fleet, but that won't help?

You have to provide a target. Empty rocks wouldn't keep them busy. If the Tau don't change their pace, nothing except THEIR worlds may be close enough for a very hungry hive fleet. Because the re-direction game can be played in multiplayer mode too....

Brother Coa wrote:
Why would Imperium help Tau?
Last time Ethereal tried to talk with Space Marine he got his head blown up, and he didn't even ask one question.
Nobody said anything about asking for help.

To expand on the idea, The Tau would pick up and leave for another fringe of the IoM, as I posted earlier.

CpatTom wrote:
Fine, they would attack the Tau, because the IoM is commanded by failed tactical minds. The Tau would fight with desperation to break contact, and eventually escape.

The Nids have a field day with an unprepared IoM, and would gain the Bio-mass momentum (Especcially considering the tau did nothing to slow them through their system, because the IoM was never going to let them through, so the Tau would need the Nids right on their tail) to make a legitimate push towards Terra. Forces would have to be recalled to deal with the Nid threat. Now the Imperium lacks the power to exert its influence over a large portion of the Galaxy, and the differing forces fighting against it expand their spheres of control.

Or the IoM drafts an agreement with the Tau to allow for passage to somewhere better than the IoM wants to give up, but worse than the Tau want, in the promise that Tau forces will contest their own worlds slowing the Hive Fleet and allowing for the Imperium to set up successful defenses. This would reduces the Imperium strain dealing with the Nid threat, and allows for the relocation of the Tau Empire somewhere that the IoM has a hand in choosing.

The IoM has a lot of experience with politics and military engagements. They would probably have some smart guys on this one.

I'm a millionare. Just because the USSR says it is Communist does not mean it is true.

1hadhq wrote:

CpatTom wrote:First the Tau wouldn't attract a larger Hive Fleet due to the dampened warp presence. So, there goes that to begin with.

nomotog wrote:Nids are attracted to warp presence.

Not really. Do they care for the empyrean, the warp itself? If nids chased warp presence, every demonic infestation would attract them.

Nids care only for one thing and thats bio-mass.

Densly packed clusters of inhabitable worlds are a major target for nids.
The Tau empire provides that.
Thus the hivemind will sooner or later come for dinner.
The idea of re-direction works if you have to deal with small splinters. A hungry fully blown fleet may just eat everything in its path.

nomotog wrote:
Ok I don't get exactly what you mean. You seem to agree that fleets are attracted to genestealers and that you can redirect a fleet, but that won't help?

You have to provide a target. Empty rocks wouldn't keep them busy. If the Tau don't change their pace, nothing except THEIR worlds may be close enough for a very hungry hive fleet. Because the re-direction game can be played in multiplayer mode too....

The idea is that the fleet follows the genestealers. So you move all the infected you can find to a trap. A rock of a world with heavy defense. The hive attacks that planet and dosen't realize it's a trap till it's late.

nomotog wrote:Nids are attracted to warp presence. It's part of how they tell dead rocks from living planets. It's also used with gene stealers. A stealer cult acts a warp beacon to a hive fleet. Tau having low warp might help, but it would help a lot more if they did regular testing for gene stealers and moving them to dead planets to act as a giant flank.

You seem to be confusing it a bit here. They're not attracted to warp prescences, they're attracted to the psychic beacon their vanguard organisms project. The Tau having no psychic prescence of their own means nothing. The vanguard tells the hive fleets that food is there, and they go there.

The reason they don't wipe the Tau out with a big hive fleet is again, they still want to have a Tau range to sell.

No, they wouldn't. The reason they dont is because it is Deus Ex Machina vs Deus Ex Machina. The Nids "evolve" solutions to everything, and the Tau "invent" solutions to everything, so they would continue one upping each other forever.

Not quite, Tau have only slightly over 100 worlds. Even losing 20 worlds would be a blow to them, and Tyranids have something that Tau can't fight against - limitless number of bodies.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's pretty clear the Tyranids will wipe out all life in the galaxy. They've already done it to a different galaxy.

Surprisingly, I agree. They may have even wiped out multiple other galaxies.

CpatTom wrote:No, they wouldn't. The reason they dont is because it is Deus Ex Machina vs Deus Ex Machina. The Nids "evolve" solutions to everything, and the Tau "invent" solutions to everything, so they would continue one upping each other forever.

And they do this because they want to sell models.

That's the overall bottom line it always comes to. The Tyranids have spores they could absolutely choke a planet with. Venomthropes? Yeah, the spores they release would, if released on a planet wide scale, kill every living thing on the planet. Every type of animal would have its organs liquefied and they'd drown in their own fluids, and the Tyranids would just need to drop down, plant their capillary towers, and use Hive Guard to fend off any lingering threats that were in bunkers or sealed vehicles. The idea that this race would need to deploy ground troops does not make sense.

Other races have technology to make ground assaults pretty redundant as well.

But they want to sell models.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It's pretty clear the Tyranids will wipe out all life in the galaxy. They've already done it to a different galaxy.

Surprisingly, I agree. They may have even wiped out multiple other galaxies.

The rulebook specifically states a dozen galaxies.

Orblivion wrote:
They are also communists. As we have learned from history, communist nations tend to sacrifice large numbers of their populace for the "greater good".

Really, the Tau fight the opposite of this, weak Communist parallels or not. The Tau fight in a meticulous, surgical manner that is meant to minimize casualties. Their style of combat is much more similar to the Eldar then to Mankind, Tyranids, or Orks, who rely on weight of numbers and take enormous casualties on a regular basis.

Fine, the 12 galaxy large fat man of 40k will get his blue seahorse sandwich.

If gorgon shows anything though, its that the Nids couldnt keep up with the Tau, so I still hold the Tau wouldnt just sit there and wait to get eaten. Thats stupid and irrational. Two things the Tau aren't. Just my opinion of course.

That or pull a page out of the BA play book and start doing the Space Mummy Fist bump. New mummy fluff totally makes it possible (rumored of course) haha, how happy are all the Necron players after that wait, haha.