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Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Tau and IoM fight the nids in different ways. The IoM uses a large amount of human forces and tries to grind it's way through an enemy. Fighting nids, it's probably a net loss for the IoM, so that's why they use all kinds of tricks to kill a hive fleet. (destroying worlds, poisons ext) The tau are different, there force is very mechanized and they don't in fight the whole horde. They focus on taking out the command structure. (anyone else think it's strange how nids have comanders?)

Do you really think the IoM relies only upon destroying worlds or introduces poisons?

There's a reason the Deathwatch have Kill-Teams, Nomotog. Many Deathwatch Kill-Teams end up tracking and killing Tyranid command beasts over their service.

That's what the ect was for. The IoM seems to get really smart when it comes to nids using a lot of crazy ways to stop them. Though the bulk of there force is still the IG, or the PDF(spelling?). There is also the shadow of the warp that the nids do. Cutting off communication allows them to eat IoM worlds in secret before the IoM can get it's fighting force together. You know it actually looks like the IoM is the per4fect target for the nids. Any other side would fair much better vs the nids.

I don't know about any other side faring much better against the Tyranids, but the Imperium is a good target for pretty much any of the Xenos factions in 40k.

The tau have been fairing better so far. First contact for the IoM was really bad, but first contact for the tau wasn't as bad. Eldar could probably jump from planet to planet avoiding the nids. Necrons would kill the nids with little problems. Orks.. I don't know. An ork world would last longer fighting a fleet, but they wouldn't be able to win. Only side that might fair worse would be the single planet empires.

Kroothawk wrote:Hmm, guess it's again time for another Tau genocide fantasy thread by a dedicated tau hater, oh well...

Yes. That's exactly what this thread is about.


Some interesting thoughts, I quite like the idea of the Nicassar creating a psychic faint to lure them away. Though hordes of suicidal drones would be an excellent counter to their bio-harvesting, just a case of if they can scrape together enough of the blighters.

Also Brother Coa, thanks for that picture never seen it before, looks excellent.

nomotog wrote:The tau have been fairing better so far. First contact for the IoM was really bad, but first contact for the tau wasn't as bad.

"First contact" for the IoM was an entire Hive Fleet. The Tau have faced splinters from a Hive Fleet, and even then they got pretty heavily trounced by and large.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:The tau have been fairing better so far. First contact for the IoM was really bad, but first contact for the tau wasn't as bad.

"First contact" for the IoM was an entire Hive Fleet. The Tau have faced splinters from a Hive Fleet, and even then they got pretty heavily trounced by and large.

They lost one research station and part of a Sept world. Though the big thing is that they didn't lose the Sept world. The first time is always the worst. After you know what the nids are and how you find them, they lose the element of surprise there biggest weapon.

They lost one research station, part of a Sept world, and what amounted to a sectoral fleet.

I'd also like to point out that if a delayed Imperial Guard/Navy contingent hadn't arrived they likely would have lost the Sept world.

daveNYC wrote:
(it's been pretty established that Orks are everywhere)

Somehow I don't think an Ork would survive the millions of years drifting through space to get to another Galaxy. Actually, make that billions, since there's no Warp travel in the void.

Anyway, I think Tau would adapt pretty well. They're one of the only races to use Drones as frontline combat troops, and given an enemy that feeds on organic matter they'd probably develop an entire range of Drone troops and drop turrets to hold the Nids back, denying them precious biomass. Every vehicle they had could be piloted by a drone. Suicide Drone space ships. Drone-controlled Battlesuits. They have a weapon against Tyranids the Imperium could never have.

obvioustrollmode on/ Remember, an entire Hive Fleet was shattered trying to take one star system. The most plot armoured star system in the Galaxy apart from Terra, but a single star system nonetheless./obvioustrollmode off

Kanluwen wrote:I don't know about any other side faring much better against the Tyranids, but the Imperium is a good target for pretty much any of the Xenos factions in 40k.

Not sure about this, but wouldn't the Fleet do well to avoid the Eye of Terror? The normal Nids mightn't have minds to corrupt, but they wouldn't be immune to the mutations.

Durza wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I don't know about any other side faring much better against the Tyranids, but the Imperium is a good target for pretty much any of the Xenos factions in 40k.

Not sure about this, but wouldn't the Fleet do well to avoid the Eye of Terror? The normal Nids mightn't have minds to corrupt, but they wouldn't be immune to the mutations.

To quote a ancient philisopher:

If a Tyranid tentacled horror is corrupted in the Eye of Terror, would anyone notice?

Harriticus wrote:
Meanwhile the Eldar would have been toast had Kraken hit Iyanden full force, instead it had split and the other tendril hit Ichar IV.

First, Hive Fleets have always tendriled. It spreads out the Shadow of the Warp, which cuts off distress cries from worlds in between the Tendrils... its a very effective strategy for consuming biomass...

Second The Eldar have proven very effective at dispatching Tyranids, and their record is certainly better than the Imperium. Remember that Iyanden is a single craft world, they were cut off from reinforcements by the Shadow in the Warp, and were aided really only by a Corsair Fleet of Iyanden decent. Also its important to note that the Tendril which hit Iyanden was a "massive tendril" of one of the larger hive fleets to invade the Galaxy. Sure it nearly eliminated Iyanden, but it was fighting only a single Craftworld. Ulthwe, Biel Tan, Saim Han and Alaitoc, the 4 other major Craftworlds were not even involved in the conflict.

Earlier, Hive Fleet Naga got curb stomped by Iyanden and two minor Craftworlds, losing only 7 exodite worlds and 2 maiden worlds. Sure all of Malan'tai was destroyed, but that was at the hands of a single, and new type of Zoanthrope. You can bet the Eldar won't ignore Zoanthropes anymore...

Tau technological adaptation forces Nid biological adaptaion, which causes the nids to expend more biomass on the construction of troops reducing the number that can be produced. If the IoM was capable of nimbly altering their technology to an adapting enemy force composition, they too could face smaller Nid hordes.

Defeating the nids is simple biomass accounting. Either make it more expensive to produce all of the nids, thereby reducing the total number you have to defeat, or keep them from aquiring new stores of biomass, by destroying the battlegrounds you lose.

"Losing only 7 Exodite worlds and 2 Maiden worlds" is not a good thing.

Habitable worlds are rare. It's why the Imperium is actually kind of hesitant in declaring Exterminatus, despite people's ideas to the contrary.

TrollPie wrote: Every vehicle they had could be piloted by a drone. Suicide Drone space ships. Drone-controlled Battlesuits. They have a weapon against Tyranids the Imperium could never have.

Never have?
They had that. Didn't stay loyal, didn't they?

A full hive fleet would eat the Tau empire. For Breakfast. Until GW decides the range is nice and sells and throw in another force, something
that was done per necrons, per Dark Eldar and per Cadians before. I'd guess Tau are safe until finally failing the 'plot-armor' save....

gabrielhorus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:The Tau would be more than able to hold off the Tyranids. The Tau Custodian class capitol ships can obliterate an Imperial fleet without backup. The Tau have four to unleash against invaders and they are building more.

Most Bioships would die to these vessels before they could release spores. The Tau response to landings would be a defensive line and a strategy I like to call "It's Rainin' Drones".

Wishful thinking. Or you're simply a troll. Custodians obliterating an entire Imperial Fleet? What kind of fleet was this, two escorts and a single bulk transport? Either way, what you've said is fictional.

Remember when the Imperial fought Behemoth? It required the entire Ultramarines fleet, their system ships, and a Segmentum Fleet, to take down one Hive Fleet, and they were only victorious because the Dominus Astra sacrificed itself to win the day, and even then the fleet was nearly obliterated. Good luck Tau is all can say. Actually, no, I would hope them to be obliterated by a Hive Fleet and expunged from the universe.

The Imperial navy sacrificed a massive number of ships to take down one Custodian, solo. This would be over the size of a standard battlefleet as this was a full crusade.
Also, Imperial fleets have a bad habit obeying the order "engage the enemy more closely". Valid in the case of the Space Marines and their boarding parties, but it brings them into range of the Tyranid melee ships. The Tau would stay back and take advantage of their superior weaponry.

Source or it didn't happen. In fact, I can tell you right now that you're fabricating nonsense. An entire Crusade fleet against a single Tau vessel without it's escort? A Custodian was deemed a threat, and was hunted down, and destroyed, the Imperial losses weren't battlefleet sized.
This second part is interesting though. Have you ever heard of the Imperium launching Space Marine Boarding parties? No, you haven't, because the vast majority of Tyranid ships can't be boarded. Warriors of Ultramar has the Imperium fight the Tyranids much the same as any other enemy, not charging in to have a game of fisty-cuffs, so you're just making stuff up.

I don't see the Tau surviving an entire full on hive fleet assault. They just don't have the numbers imho.

1hadhq wrote:

TrollPie wrote: Every vehicle they had could be piloted by a drone. Suicide Drone space ships. Drone-controlled Battlesuits. They have a weapon against Tyranids the Imperium could never have.

Never have?
They had that. Didn't stay loyal, didn't they?

A full hive fleet would eat the Tau empire. For Breakfast. Until GW decides the range is nice and sells and throw in another force, something
that was done per necrons, per Dark Eldar and per Cadians before. I'd guess Tau are safe until finally failing the 'plot-armor' save....

If nothing had plot armour, Space Marines would have gone extinct long ago, the Necrons would all wake up in unison and destroy everything, the SoB would have been turned in to table ornaments by Chaos Lords a few moments after being founded and GW wouldn't have a successful game.
And people who think Tau drones will all suddenly rebel and destroy their empire are forgetting this has happened once in the same setting because at the time Terminator was pretty popular, and that well programmed computers don't rebel.
Also, there are about 30 fully developed planets in the Tau Empire and 70 minor planets or allied worlds. That's alot. It's just because the Imperium is so big it makes everything else seem small by comparison. The total population of the Tau is most likely in the hundreds of billions. A ridiculously large proportion of that is in the Fire Caste. It's nothing compared to the Imperium, but it's density and Caste system means it's far from an easy meal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

snake wrote:I don't see the Tau surviving an entire full on hive fleet assault. They just don't have the numbers imho.

Single Imperial Star Systems have survived Tyranid Hive Fleet assaults and their numbers are a fraction of that of the Tau Empire.

iproxtaco wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:The Tau would be more than able to hold off the Tyranids. The Tau Custodian class capitol ships can obliterate an Imperial fleet without backup. The Tau have four to unleash against invaders and they are building more.

Most Bioships would die to these vessels before they could release spores. The Tau response to landings would be a defensive line and a strategy I like to call "It's Rainin' Drones".

Wishful thinking. Or you're simply a troll. Custodians obliterating an entire Imperial Fleet? What kind of fleet was this, two escorts and a single bulk transport? Either way, what you've said is fictional.

Remember when the Imperial fought Behemoth? It required the entire Ultramarines fleet, their system ships, and a Segmentum Fleet, to take down one Hive Fleet, and they were only victorious because the Dominus Astra sacrificed itself to win the day, and even then the fleet was nearly obliterated. Good luck Tau is all can say. Actually, no, I would hope them to be obliterated by a Hive Fleet and expunged from the universe.

The Imperial navy sacrificed a massive number of ships to take down one Custodian, solo. This would be over the size of a standard battlefleet as this was a full crusade.
Also, Imperial fleets have a bad habit obeying the order "engage the enemy more closely". Valid in the case of the Space Marines and their boarding parties, but it brings them into range of the Tyranid melee ships. The Tau would stay back and take advantage of their superior weaponry.

Source or it didn't happen. In fact, I can tell you right now that you're fabricating nonsense. An entire Crusade fleet against a single Tau vessel without it's escort? A Custodian was deemed a threat, and was hunted down, and destroyed, the Imperial losses weren't battlefleet sized.
This second part is interesting though. Have you ever heard of the Imperium launching Space Marine Boarding parties? No, you haven't, because the vast majority of Tyranid ships can't be boarded. Warriors of Ultramar has the Imperium fight the Tyranids much the same as any other enemy, not charging in to have a game of fisty-cuffs, so you're just making stuff up.

I don't know about the Tau but as far as the Imperium goes, yeah, they send Space Marines to board Tyranid ships all the time. This is a bit of fluff from Epic Hive War page 34:

"The fight has not been entirely in vain. In a number of systems Space Marines have boarded Tyranid ships while they were still dormant after exiting the warp. These boarding parties entered the pulsing vitals of the immense alien craft, gathering information about the Tyranids and destroying thousands of aliens while they lay in frozen hibernation. The information gathered by these brave Space Marines has proved vital to the Imperium's search for a way to defeat the Tyranid menace."

TrollPie wrote:Single Imperial Star Systems have survived Tyranid Hive Fleet assaults and their numbers are a fraction of that of the Tau Empire.

No single Imperial star system has survived the force of an entire Hive Fleet purely using its own forces. The Tau don't have the numbers to wage such a war - if their Drones were so easy to mass manufacture and easily capable of controlling tanks and battlesuits, then they'd have conquered far more than they actually have through dint of vast numbers of quickly replacable forces. Drones are not as potent as you are making them out to be.


Also, all the plot armour talk is kind of ridiculous. It essentially ends up being, in, say, the case of the Astartes, people saying that they could never possibly be that potent a force (which leads to the problem of them not being that good and being effectively useless as a force, or being that good and as such being hugely useful).

I would say the eldar have more chance of survival then the tau nuff said.

I'm right, you're wrong. Hahaha.

Edit: Haha, Seriously though. I see a lot of arguments for the fact that the Tau couldn't win, because they couldnt win the IoM way. That is true, they couldnt win that way, cause they arent the IoM. Just because they would lose one way, does not mean they could not win another way. This is flawed logic, and it makes any argument using it flawed as well.

TrollPie wrote:


And people who think Tau drones will all suddenly rebel and destroy their empire are forgetting this has happened once in the same setting because at the time Terminator was pretty popular, and that well programmed computers don't rebel.


Also, there are about 30 fully developed planets in the Tau Empire and 70 minor planets or allied worlds. The total population of the Tau is most likely in the hundreds of billions. A ridiculously large proportion of that is in the Fire Caste. It's nothing compared to the Imperium, but it's density and Caste system means it's far from an easy meal.
.

Crons still be "terminator" to some degree, so we'll see what happens when they return...

The total population of the Tau is only shown in ....their first dex... and probably much lower than some fans want it to be.
Just 100 planets? high chance the nids eat the important ones and the "empire" crumbles in a few months. You don't need to annex every place in an "empire" to end said "empire".

IIRC the Eldar weren't used to save the Tau, so there is still hope to survive the nids by the grace of the 'elder' races....

As stated already, the Tau have no hope of standing up to a fully fledged Hive Fleet, but they have handled a Splinter fleet in the past.

But they probably won't need to stand against a hive fleet alone, Ultramarines and other nearby Imperial Forces will be working hard to kill tyranids, however I wouldn't put it past them to 'direct' some tyranids towards the Tau as they have done to Orks before.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:The Tau would be more than able to hold off the Tyranids. The Tau Custodian class capitol ships can obliterate an Imperial fleet without backup. The Tau have four to unleash against invaders and they are building more.

Most Bioships would die to these vessels before they could release spores. The Tau response to landings would be a defensive line and a strategy I like to call "It's Rainin' Drones".

Wishful thinking. Or you're simply a troll. Custodians obliterating an entire Imperial Fleet? What kind of fleet was this, two escorts and a single bulk transport? Either way, what you've said is fictional.

Remember when the Imperial fought Behemoth? It required the entire Ultramarines fleet, their system ships, and a Segmentum Fleet, to take down one Hive Fleet, and they were only victorious because the Dominus Astra sacrificed itself to win the day, and even then the fleet was nearly obliterated. Good luck Tau is all can say. Actually, no, I would hope them to be obliterated by a Hive Fleet and expunged from the universe.

The Imperial navy sacrificed a massive number of ships to take down one Custodian, solo. This would be over the size of a standard battlefleet as this was a full crusade.
Also, Imperial fleets have a bad habit obeying the order "engage the enemy more closely". Valid in the case of the Space Marines and their boarding parties, but it brings them into range of the Tyranid melee ships. The Tau would stay back and take advantage of their superior weaponry.

Source or it didn't happen. In fact, I can tell you right now that you're fabricating nonsense. An entire Crusade fleet against a single Tau vessel without it's escort? A Custodian was deemed a threat, and was hunted down, and destroyed, the Imperial losses weren't battlefleet sized.
This second part is interesting though. Have you ever heard of the Imperium launching Space Marine Boarding parties? No, you haven't, because the vast majority of Tyranid ships can't be boarded. Warriors of Ultramar has the Imperium fight the Tyranids much the same as any other enemy, not charging in to have a game of fisty-cuffs, so you're just making stuff up.

I don't know about the Tau but as far as the Imperium goes, yeah, they send Space Marines to board Tyranid ships all the time. This is a bit of fluff from Epic Hive War page 34:

"The fight has not been entirely in vain. In a number of systems Space Marines have boarded Tyranid ships while they were still dormant after exiting the warp. These boarding parties entered the pulsing vitals of the immense alien craft, gathering information about the Tyranids and destroying thousands of aliens while they lay in frozen hibernation. The information gathered by these brave Space Marines has proved vital to the Imperium's search for a way to defeat the Tyranid menace."

Not quite.

Sending a Strike Ship to sail right up to a Tryanid ship, firing boarding pods into a combat zone in the heat of battle, is very different from the situation described above. Those ships were dormant, the Tyanids inside were sleeping in cryo,and those situations were few and far between.

Actually if the Imperium knows they're coming I'm sure those situations would be rather common. I would have to find them but I'm pretty sure there are stories of marines boarding ships during combat to destroy the hive ships before they get close enough to a planet to destroy it. But I don't think it's recent fluff.

Anyway, it does happen and not that rarely. If I remember correctly they even did that during the invasion of Ultramar.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Single Imperial Star Systems have survived Tyranid Hive Fleet assaults and their numbers are a fraction of that of the Tau Empire.

No single Imperial star system has survived the force of an entire Hive Fleet purely using its own forces. The Tau don't have the numbers to wage such a war - if their Drones were so easy to mass manufacture and easily capable of controlling tanks and battlesuits, then they'd have conquered far more than they actually have through dint of vast numbers of quickly replacable forces. Drones are not as potent as you are making them out to be.


Also, all the plot armour talk is kind of ridiculous. It essentially ends up being, in, say, the case of the Astartes, people saying that they could never possibly be that potent a force (which leads to the problem of them not being that good and being effectively useless as a force, or being that good and as such being hugely useful).

Tau do have the ability to make drones easy. I base this on the fact that everyone gets a drone. Everyone. Form diplomats to battle suits to farmers. The tau have drones coming out of the wazoo. I doubt they can drive tanks though, or they would have them out driveing tanks.

The Tau drones won't rebel like the Iron Men did because Tau drones don't carry a true AI (Silica Animus) onboard. They're simply very smart computers, but are not self-aware/self-sentient constructions.

That said... I don't think the Tau, alone, could withstand an entire Hive Fleet coming up from below the galactic plane to eat their empire, and their empire alone. If we stage it as just the Tau vs just the Tyranid Hive fleet.... we will call it Hive Fleet Cthulhu, in keeping with the Lovecraftian themes of all other named Hive Fleets... the Tau simply don't have the numbers.

The Tau are already struggling with a few other xeno species on single worlds/single systems in the Jericho Reach that have absolutely no interest in joining the Greater Good, primarily because whatever these xenos are don't communicate with the Tau in any way, and just eat them, apparently magically. No details of these creatures are given, as Deathwatch is written from a human perspective and no Imperial elements are on these worlds, but it seems there is some sort of crystal-ghost race on a few worlds the Tau really want... but are having a hell of a time taking.

The Tyranid will not join the Greater Good. The concept of mutual support and benefit doesn't exist to them... all they have is the Hunger. You can't even really speak to a Tyranid biomorph... they have mouth-parts, but no known language, at least in so far as can be deciphered. Most of them don't even have enough brain-space to engage with telepathically (and those that do bring down the brunt of the Hive Mind, so the telepath's head pops). There's no foothold for an Ethereal to gain here, and a Water Caste delegation will be assumed to be an offering of sushimi to a Hive Tyrant.

As for the Tau Navy? Well... yeah, it's good but... each ship only holds so many guns. There are about a million Nids in a fleet per gun. A gun might kill half of that on their approach... but that's still 500,000 Nids now crawling all over your hull, eating your cannons, your power relays, your airlocks. Fly enough bio-acid-bleeding Tyranids at the ships, and eventually, well, it's like your windscreen after a summer's drive. Covered in bug-goo. Bug-goo that opens your ship to the void.

The Tau simply don't have the numbers... and as has happened with Imperial forces in other areas, once the Tyranid are defeated by one means, the next wave/generation of biomorphs will have adapted. Getting crisped by Tau plasma-pulse? Build heat-resistant bugs. Getting torn up by drone swarms? Build swarms of smaller bugs that are camouflaged against the camera optics of the drones (ie, heat-baffled or camo-skinned or light-bending).

Or, easier for the Tyranid.... send in your Warriors to the front to engage the Tau in ranged combat while your ripper swarms and carnifex and lictors and all your other close-combat monstrosities get them in the flanks, or from below. Crisis suits are awesome, but relatively few in number compared to the legions of troops Hive Fleet Cthulhu can bring to the battlefield. It becomes simply a numbers game at this point (which everyone loses when it comes to the Nids, with the exception of the Necrons).

The Tau would need to adopt an extremely mobile battle doctrine to defeat the Hive Fleet, avoiding combat on the ground (which the Tau will lose simply by attrition) and instead keep the fight in space, and from range. I don't believe the Tau have anything like Blackstone Fortresses or other super-weapons in space, so the best they can hope for is lightning strike raids, harrying actions and such, but will need to basically sacrifice their planets, even if they can evacuate all of its residents.

nomotog wrote:Tau do have the ability to make drones easy. I base this on the fact that everyone gets a drone. Everyone. Form diplomats to battle suits to farmers. The tau have drones coming out of the wazoo. I doubt they can drive tanks though, or they would have them out driveing tanks.

Oh sure, they can make a lot of them and easily. Just not as easily as suggested, otherwise the Tau would simply be undergoing continual and quick expansion without pause. They will not be able to create enough to out-fight a Tyranid Hive Fleet in attrition.

They also still need Tau operators around, otherwise they'd just send in entire armies of Drones.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

nomotog wrote:Tau do have the ability to make drones easy. I base this on the fact that everyone gets a drone. Everyone. Form diplomats to battle suits to farmers. The tau have drones coming out of the wazoo. I doubt they can drive tanks though, or they would have them out driveing tanks.

Oh sure, they can make a lot of them and easily. Just not as easily as suggested, otherwise the Tau would simply be undergoing continual and quick expansion without pause. They will not be able to create enough to out-fight a Tyranid Hive Fleet in attrition.

They also still need Tau operators around, otherwise they'd just send in entire armies of Drones.

Not to split hairs but it's their drone technology that's enabled them to expand as quickly as they have. From Hammerheads on up to Tau and starships (Manta have 16 drone controlled turrets), Tau vehicles have fully integrated drone technology. The fluff talks about automated factories which enable them to quickly adapt craft to their needs (BFG) and the codex has an excerpt from an imperial source that talks about advanced production and agriculture tech that meets or ::gasp:: exceeds IoM tech.

The Tau have gone through 3 phases of massive expansion and could not have accomplished this without drones since the number of Tau is relatively small. IA:3 talks about how extensively drones are used and even the codex allows for units for drones without a controller. IA:3 has heavy gun drones that may be taken in units of 2-6 as their integrated FoF tehcnology and preprogramming allow them to accomplish basic missions without a controller; there's nothing more basic than "Go here and kill any enemy along the way." There are other types of drones like sentry turrets and tech drones as well.

Psienesis wrote:The Tau drones won't rebel like the Iron Men did because Tau drones don't carry a true AI (Silica Animus) onboard. They're simply very smart computers, but are not self-aware/self-sentient constructions.

Theres this upcoming model ' I may point at: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270/403994.page#3448421
Rebellion? Re-programming loyality routines I say....