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Grots R OP wrote:

pretre wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Because you take risks to make a fun game?

Also this. There is a good possibility of S10. That's not a bad thing. In 2k games, I commonly take 3 Zzap with 3 Runts for times when I need those Zzaps to hit.

.08 * 15 shots per game. You will get 1.2*.5= .6 str 10 hits per 5 rounds assuming no Zapp guns are destroyed. .5 str 10 hit for 105 points?(no codex). a warboss w PK is alot more useful imo and you get 6 str 10 hits for the same price. Which isn't my point.

The point is that this is a proof reading error. The editors/author rewrote the Zapp gunn auto hit rule, then didn't adjust its stats or play test it, they just left it broken. That is nothing but laziness. I only play friendly games myself and I bring alot of "dumb" setups like meganobs and what not . But I realize that meganobs are a terrible unit-I just like them in their siny yellow bad moon outfits, but the fact that they come default "with stikkbombs" is on par stupid with Zzap guns being 15 points more than kannons.

You sound fun to play against. /Sarcasm.

Really, you prioritize mashing your opponent over actually enjoying yourself? You skip all ideas of fluff or chance and just take the solid choice?

Remind me never to play you.

pretre wrote:I think I'm missing something here, but isn't that the point?

That is why it is silly, though. They took they time to write a rule that specifies nothing happens. Even weirder, it specifies that nothing happens because of a rule that is not present.

Editing to add:
Which is to say, Brood Telepathy specifically tells you to ignore a rule that does not exist for the models it applies to.

pretre wrote:

Grots R OP wrote:I know, but they used to auto hit. They took that away and they left the stats and the cost the same, maybe play testing/engineering is to blame not the editors. I am sure if you ask the engineers they will blame the editors though. lol.

You could say the same for Plasma Guns in every single book in 4th and 5th edition; they're costed on AP2 just like Zzap guns.

You're just wrong here. The designers, dumb or not, think more highly of AP2 than most players do. That's why zzaps are so expensive, as are plasma pistols, guns, etc.

They are a 15 point downgrade, no sale.

The decapitator.
Master of appearing from the shadows, cutting someones head off and dissapearing.
Can't assault the turn he appears on the field.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Grots R OP wrote:

pretre wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Because you take risks to make a fun game?

Also this. There is a good possibility of S10. That's not a bad thing. In 2k games, I commonly take 3 Zzap with 3 Runts for times when I need those Zzaps to hit.

.08 * 15 shots per game. You will get 1.2*.5= .6 str 10 hits per 5 rounds assuming no Zapp guns are destroyed. .5 str 10 hit for 105 points?(no codex). a warboss w PK is alot more useful imo and you get 6 str 10 hits for the same price. Which isn't my point.

The point is that this is a proof reading error. The editors/author rewrote the Zapp gunn auto hit rule, then didn't adjust its stats or play test it, they just left it broken. That is nothing but laziness. I only play friendly games myself and I bring alot of "dumb" setups like meganobs and what not . But I realize that meganobs are a terrible unit-I just like them in their siny yellow bad moon outfits, but the fact that they come default "with stikkbombs" is on par stupid with Zzap guns being 15 points more than kannons.

You sound fun to play against. /Sarcasm.

Really, you prioritize mashing your opponent over actually enjoying yourself? You skip all ideas of fluff or chance and just take the solid choice?

Remind me never to play you.

Seriously kid, I am not gonna troll you, it's just some basic math man, no reason to call names.

Like I said I bring fun units all the time-for fun. But I expect a professional game designer that wants my money and purchase to at least do more math on their game and proof reading on their codexes than I do. Zzap guns sound cool, I wish they were better at what they are supposed to do. The truth is that they are inferior to Kannons. AP2 does nothing against vehicles. If they were AP1 weapons then I might stop by the store and buy some Zzap gun models. But if you are smart with your money then you don't buy 1 str 10 hitfor $75.00. That make sense?

McNinja wrote: No. In the modern day military, you train for both, and if you show an aptitude for shooting, you can opt to be a sniper. You don't train as a sniper then learn how to be a Marine.

In the modern military you serve for four years. Maybe twenty or so if you are a lifer, but only ten or fifteen of that twenty is going to be in a line unit.

Space Marines serve for decades, even hundreds of years. They need to be masters of every facet of warfare, not just one.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Space Marines serve for decades, even hundreds of years. They need to be masters of every facet of warfare, not just one.

I don’t think the different aspects of warfare are an issue — just the order in which they now do them.

I find it somewhat ironic that so many people are mentioning nonsensical 'mistakes' in the Ork codex, when the Orks are not supposed to make any sense. Even the fluff from the Necron codex mentions that the Orks operate completely outside the realm of logic.

pretre wrote:You're just wrong here. The designers, dumb or not, think more highly of AP2 than most players do. That's why zzaps are so expensive, as are plasma pistols, guns, etc.

That is because AP2 weapons hurt space marines too easily.

Skriker

BlapBlapBlap wrote:You sound fun to play against. /Sarcasm.

Really, you prioritize mashing your opponent over actually enjoying yourself? You skip all ideas of fluff or chance and just take the solid choice?

Remind me never to play you.

So, what's so fun about a Zzap gun? That argument keeps getting brought up whenever kannon vs zzap gun is discussed.

You basically have a gun you expect to do ok (S7, AP2). Sometimes it will do worse by rolling less strength. Sometimes it will do worse by rolling more strength but killing a grot. It will never do better than expected, because that additional strength doesn't do anything 95% of the time.

Is rolling two dice that much fun? Is it worth 30 points upgrade over the strictly better kannons?

Rather than downgrading kannons to zzap gunz, you could just field and additional unit of gretchin and ask your opponent for permission to have your Warboss shoot them in the face with his shoota. That way, you have better big gunz, you get to roll your two dice and you even have a better chance of killing gretchin. Win-win.

Jidmah wrote:So, what's so fun about a Zzap gun? That argument keeps getting brought up whenever kannon vs zzap gun is discussed.

I personally like it gives me AP2 at pretty long range for Orks. 3 Zzaps + 3 Runts keeps me going. Basically, I can use it to take out terminators (something the rest of my army is only so-so at) or armor and if I get a good result when shooting at something (6+ against infantry or 8+ vs vehicles), I use the runts to make it count. Losing 1 grot out of 6 really doesn't bother me, if I roll high. In fact, I cheer as that grot has done a great job for the cause.

I also run Kannons for the reliability, but you can't beat the expression on someone's face when you Zzap the crap out of their terms or blow up a land raider (both things that I've done in RTT games with my zzaps).

Friends and I were having a chat prior to an evening of DnD about the IG Codex, IA & other bits & pieces and we hit on an thought-provoking part of the Guard Codex.

Many people claim that the Vendetta is under-pointed being just 30 more than the standard Valkyrie. What if it's actually the Valkyrie that is over-pointed? If you consider it, 100 points + rocket pods = same cost as the Vendetta already. That's quite a blunder. You're better off getting chimeras for your squads which are far cheaper and two of them will hit just a bit less than a single Valkyrie with door gunners. Thinking of what you get for the points the Valkyrie starts to look weak and over-pointed. Perhaps it should have been just 80 points with door gunners included in the cost? That way even when upgraded it's still a bit cheaper than the Vendetta but the advantage of the three twin-linked lascannons makes the Vendetta worth the extra points.

Just our thoughts...

2 Chimeras can't move 12" and still fire ML and 2 MRP while ignoring DT in transit. Course it is a lot less, but still.

My gut instinct has always been a Valkyrie's about 5-10 points undercosted and a vendetta is 10-15. With Chimeras around 5 points underpointed.

On the other hand, Ogryns, Stormtroopers and a few others, are overcosted.

So, anyhow, that's my rationalisation for fielding Ogryn's along with a Vendetta and Valkyrie. - I'm just playing 'fair.'

I didn't say it was a good rationalisation.

Was making an army list and noticed this in codex space marines:

Land speeder 1, replace heavy bolster with heavy flamer upgrade land speeder to typhoon with multi melta ponits total 60 points

Land speeder 2,replace heavy bolster with multi melta upgrade to typhoon pattern with heavy flamer points total 70

Land speeder 1 hf mm 60 points > land speeder 2 hf mm 70 points.

Wtf? Games workshop, just think for a second.

The last thing I will mention on Zzap guns and it's not because my point is to debate Zzap guns vs Kannons. Are they fun? I guess thats an opinion, I am on jidmah's side in thinking that they are not fun because I don't like paying more points( and real life money) for an inferior weapon that makes it easier to beat me-to me that's not fun.

My point is that Zzap guns were better than Kannons when they autohit. Now they are worse, yet cost more. I don't see this as an intentional weapon design. I see it as lazy engineering/editing/unprofessionalism/Slop, what have you.

Someone, be it editors, engineers, play testers,the ceo, the janitor, someone at GW changed the rule from autohit to BS3. Ok fine, change the price too. I mean the price should be 50% less since it now only hits half as much right? That's my point. It's your job as a game designer to check these things.

A Zzap gun with autohit is a pretty solid weapon. 15(3 per turn) str 6-8 autohits for 90?(no codex) points. That is basically 3 lootas that get 1 shot per round and never miss-OK I might take that in my army. However in their current form, they are no where near that good, besides there is a weapon that costs less and is better at the same thing-kannons. If they would have actually thought about this, then I might actually buy one, as is GW loses a sale on zzap guns.

Even with autohit on the Zzap gun though, it is not meant to be aimed at AV14. There is a reason in the game of craps that a "hard 10" pays back alot of money-because 10's are rare when rolling 2 dice . In vegas this is known as a sucker bet-because only a sucker would take it.

Pony_law wrote:Was making an army list and noticed this in codex space marines:

Land speeder 1, replace heavy bolster with heavy flamer upgrade land speeder to typhoon with multi melta ponits total 60 points

Land speeder 2,replace heavy bolster with multi melta upgrade to typhoon pattern with heavy flamer points total 70

Land speeder 1 hf mm 60 points > land speeder 2 hf mm 70 points.

Wtf? Games workshop, just think for a second.

Incorrect. I have the Codex in front of me and it states that to swap a Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer is free, but to then upgrade to give it a Multi–Melta actually costs 20 points, which brings it to a total of 70. No difference.

Grots R OP wrote:Even with autohit on the Zzap gun though, it is not meant to be aimed at AV14. There is a reason in the game of craps that a "hard 10" pays back alot of money-because 10's are rare when rolling 2 dice . In vegas this is known as a sucker bet-because only a sucker would take it.

Ahh, but the odds of a 10, 11, 12 are much better.

If you define "much" as a 8% chance to do something then yes.

I don't.

You have a 8% chance of rolling a 10 exactly,

you have a 16% chance of scoring a str 10 hit by rolling a 10,11, or 12.

16% chance to get 3 str 10 shots per game.

Which basically equals a 16% chance to wreck av14. so a 16% chance to get a 16% chance = a 2% chance to wreck AV 14 per game.

if that is the "much" you are talking about you can keep it. I guess blowing up a landraider with a Zzap gun is fun for you guys. Particularly because you are still waiting for it to happen.

Grots R OP wrote: If you define "much" as a 8% chance to do something then yes.

I don't.

You have a 8% chance of rolling a 10 exactly,

you have a 16% chance of scoring a str 10 hit by rolling a 10,11, or 12.

16% chance to get 3 str 10 shots per game.

Which basically equals a 16% chance to wreck av14. so a 16% chance to get a 16% chance = a 2% chance to wreck AV 14 per game.

if that is the "much" you are talking about you can keep it. I guess blowing up a landraider with a Zzap gun is fun for you guys. Particularly because you are still waiting for it to happen.

You, uh, need to check that math again. I'm not arguing about zzap guns, they're bad, but a 16% chance per turn does NOT equal a 16% chance per game. A zzap gun battery has about a 65% chance to get S10 at least once during a game; they get 6 rolls, each with a 16% chance to be S10. It's just like rolling 6 2+ saves, odds are that you'll fail at least one, and you may well fail 2, or 3 if you're REALLY unlucky.

One thing in the CSM codex which has always irked me.

Arhiman - the guy costs 250 points, and he is the one that created the Rubric marines (thousands sons). But the thousand sons rule says that each squad must be accompanied by an aspiring sorceror. Problem is, Arhiman is so powerful he is not just any aspiring sorceror, he is a chaos sorceror lord (and a named one too). So, he fails to qualify.

So, creator of the rubric marines wants some thousand sons to accompany him in a squad, he MUST get an aspiring sorceror to tag along as well... Kinda dumb huh.

Codex Space Marines

Land Speeder Storm being a Fast Attack Slot.

This damn thing is already an easy Kill Point and not terribly useful overall. I would still take them for the hell of it in scout heavy armies if they were a dedicated transport. This is mostly because any army that I would want to field them in would also have a large number of land speeders to back them up or just fit in with the general theme.

Also not being able to deploy the transport in DoW makes the unit even more worthless.

Yeah Zerker, my example is only true for one gun not 3 which roll their str individually. For 3 guns it would be a little higher than 2%. Also note that I am saying "destroy" meaning a 5 or 6 on the vehicle chart.

Grots R OP wrote:Yeah Zerker, my example is only true for one gun not 3 which roll their str individually. For 3 guns it would be a little higher than 2%. Also note that I am saying "destroy" meaning a 5 or 6 on the vehicle chart.

Zzaps don't roll their str individually, batteries roll for the entire group.

Eldenfirefly wrote:One thing in the CSM codex which has always irked me.

Arhiman - the guy costs 250 points, and he is the one that created the Rubric marines (thousands sons). But the thousand sons rule says that each squad must be accompanied by an aspiring sorceror. Problem is, Arhiman is so powerful he is not just any aspiring sorceror, he is a chaos sorceror lord (and a named one too). So, he fails to qualify.

So, creator of the rubric marines wants some thousand sons to accompany him in a squad, he MUST get an aspiring sorceror to tag along as well... Kinda dumb huh.

Well the commanders job is an overall commanding job, meanwhile the platoon leaders are the ones that get the troops moving in the right way to achieve the overall goals of the commander. So this makes perfect sense. Ahriman is throwing his mojo around and leading the *army*, meanwhile the aspiring sorcerer is keeping the rubric marines focused and functioning.

Skriker

Grots R OP wrote: If you define "much" as a 8% chance to do something then yes.

I don't.

You have a 8% chance of rolling a 10 exactly,

you have a 16% chance of scoring a str 10 hit by rolling a 10,11, or 12.

16% chance to get 3 str 10 shots per game.

Which basically equals a 16% chance to wreck av14. so a 16% chance to get a 16% chance = a 2% chance to wreck AV 14 per game.

if that is the "much" you are talking about you can keep it. I guess blowing up a landraider with a Zzap gun is fun for you guys. Particularly because you are still waiting for it to happen.

You need a roll of 15 or more to penetrate a landraider, meaning either S10+5, S10+6 or S9+6
The probability of a roll of 10 or better is .1666
The chance to roll a 5 or 6 after rolling a 10 or better is .1666 * .3333 = 0.0555

The probability to roll exactly 9 is .1111
The chance to roll a 6 after rolling a 9 is .1111 * .1666 = 0.0185

Total chance to penetrate a landraider when hitting: 0.0741 or 7.41%
Total chance to destroy a landraider when hitting: 0,0247 or 2.47%

Chance to hit with one gun, using an ammo runt: 75%
Chance to hit once with three guns: 14,06% -> 0,34% to destroy
Chance to hit twice with three guns: 42,19% -> 2.06% to destroy
Chance to hit three times with three guns: 42,19% -> 3.09% to destroy

Total:
5,49% chance to destroy a landraider with three zzap gunz in one turn.
24,6% chance to destroy a landraider with three zzap gunz in five turns.
19.66% chance to never roll a strength of 9 or higher in five turns.

Note that these number assume that the landraider is always in range, out of cover and you can always use ammo runts. Thus, the real numbers are conciderably lower.

And, just for the heck of it::
Chance of three kannons immobilizing a landraider in one turn: 6,25%

Jidmah wrote:5,49% chance to destroy a landraider with three zzap gunz in one turn.
24,6% chance to destroy a landraider with three zzap gunz in five turns.
19.66% chance to never roll a strength of 9 or higher in five turns.

Note that these number assume that the landraider is always in range, out of cover and you can always use ammo runts. Thus, the real numbers are conciderably lower.

And, just for the heck of it::
Chance of three kannons immobilizing a landraider in one turn: 6,25%

Interesting. So although neither one is good against land raiders, Zzap and Kannons have roughly the same chance of doing something against one in one turn. (5.49 vs 6.25)

I think that Zzap are much more important as a source of AP2 in an army that doesn't have much reliable AP2. Man do I wish they still auto-hit though.

Skriker wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:One thing in the CSM codex which has always irked me.

Arhiman - the guy costs 250 points, and he is the one that created the Rubric marines (thousands sons). But the thousand sons rule says that each squad must be accompanied by an aspiring sorceror. Problem is, Arhiman is so powerful he is not just any aspiring sorceror, he is a chaos sorceror lord (and a named one too). So, he fails to qualify.

So, creator of the rubric marines wants some thousand sons to accompany him in a squad, he MUST get an aspiring sorceror to tag along as well... Kinda dumb huh.

Well the commanders job is an overall commanding job, meanwhile the platoon leaders are the ones that get the troops moving in the right way to achieve the overall goals of the commander. So this makes perfect sense. Ahriman is throwing his mojo around and leading the *army*, meanwhile the aspiring sorcerer is keeping the rubric marines focused and functioning.

Skriker

For 250 points, Ahriman should have enough mojo to multitask.

The ork Kombi rokkit. 5 pts for a weapon that hits once every 3 games. Worse, its on a Nob and its a shoota/rokkit so you loose +1 attack for having pistol/ccw.

probably not the worst, but still annoying the fact that Forge World upgrades arent in the CSM codex, iv got the Forge World deadnought with sonic blaster so if i play it theres a discussion on points and stuff