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Rbb wrote:It was a huge smack in the face to me when my World Eaters lost their bloodthirster and bloodletters.

That may be so, but if they were ported back in there would be little point to having a Daemons-only 'dex, as it would be better to play the Legions one and get access to more units as a result.
I think modular "basic" daemons are the way to go; they're not terrible as they are, but they do need a bit of oomph.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Rbb wrote:It was a huge smack in the face to me when my World Eaters lost their bloodthirster and bloodletters.

That may be so, but if they were ported back in there would be little point to having a Daemons-only 'dex, as it would be better to play the Legions one and get access to more units as a result.
I think modular "basic" daemons are the way to go; they're not terrible as they are, but they do need a bit of oomph.

It would seem simple just to add in marks (whoa whoa that may be too obvious and practical for GW! )

For example
MoK: +1 A, FC
MoS: +1 I, Fleet
MoN: +1 T, Poison Attacks
MoT: +1 Invl, Shooting Attack
Undivided: Jump Pack (for you furies fans )

Or something

kenshin620 wrote:
MoK: +1 A, FC
MoS: +1 I, Fleet
MoN: +1 T, Poison Attacks
MoT: +1 Invl, Shooting Attack
Undivided: Jump Pack (for you furies fans )

Or something

This is one of those things so neat and simple that we'll -never- see it in a real codex, sadly.

But on that note, I think Undivided should keep the Leadership re-roll and and gain either Counter-attack or Stubborn to highlight their greater organization.

Sephyr wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:
MoK: +1 A, FC
MoS: +1 I, Fleet
MoN: +1 T, Poison Attacks
MoT: +1 Invl, Shooting Attack
Undivided: Jump Pack (for you furies fans )

Or something

This is one of those things so neat and simple that we'll -never- see it in a real codex, sadly.

But on that note, I think Undivided should keep the Leadership re-roll and and gain either Counter-attack or Stubborn to highlight their greater organization.

Hmmm I thought undivided (lesser) daemons tend to be weaker than their marked brethren though

It probly be interesting Units with the MoN were immune to enemy poisoined attacks.

Cyvash wrote:It probly be interesting Units with the MoN were immune to enemy poisoined attacks.

Isnt the fluff justification for poison attacks is more of a catch all term for anything that is good at killing non vehicles? For all we know poison attacks against daemons could be some anti daemon bullets or something. Maybe I'm wrong though

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Rbb wrote:It was a huge smack in the face to me when my World Eaters lost their bloodthirster and bloodletters.

That may be so, but if they were ported back in there would be little point to having a Daemons-only 'dex, as it would be better to play the Legions one and get access to more units as a result.
I think modular "basic" daemons are the way to go; they're not terrible as they are, but they do need a bit of oomph.

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

And yeah, it would be nice if we actually got more Legion units to make up for the fact that we lost Daemons that we had had for more than 2 DECADES.

It's simply that by having Daemons in codex CSM both are limited by the space in the codex given the current format. Just to keep them in CSM they had to lose so much just because of those space limitations making a separate book the only option to give them that room. A separate codex then demands distinctiveness to be justifiable and that means they can't be as much of a part of CSM or else no one would have a reason to play the separate book.

Was it money grab? Of course, but no more than anything else GW does. It's none the less justifiable even if not desired.

I don't think it would be bad to put them back in the book as the regular daemons. You would just have to limit the numbers and probably the types too, so that there would still be a point to the Daemons codex.
Like I said, limiting the Daemons to 0-1 per FOC slot.
Something like this:
HQ - 0-1 Greater Daemon (all 4 types listed)
Elites - 0-1 unit of Bloodletters OR Plaguebearers OR Daemonettes
FA - 0-1 unit of Bloodcrushers OR Seekers OR Plauge Riders (? I honestly do not know the name of Nurgle one in this case)

I think this would allow for some Daemonic flavor to the cult legions without making the daemonic presence overwhelming. And thus keeping the Daemon Codex as a viable choice without resorting to "cookie cutter daemons".

But the CSM codex didn't gain anything when they lost daemons. There were no new units added. If they did add the ability to mark daemons or buy upgrades for them I would be happy. After seeing how they did the GK codex I'm very enthusiastic for the next Csm book. After the bland codex we've had for the past 5 years, almost anything would be better.

I just say let them INVENT NEW UNDIVIDED DAEMONS.

Seriously, I love daemons, lets have more types! Not some crap all "lesser daemons" But daemons that could be used as undivided, and marked.

There'd be a generic "Template" For the gods. Slap a mark on, get stats/specials. Done
For undivided, we get some new ones that are actually named something interesting, not Lesser, but actual new daemons.

DraconicGuardian wrote:I don't think it would be bad to put them back in the book as the regular daemons. You would just have to limit the numbers and probably the types too, so that there would still be a point to the Daemons codex.
Like I said, limiting the Daemons to 0-1 per FOC slot.
Something like this:
HQ - 0-1 Greater Daemon (all 4 types listed)
Elites - 0-1 unit of Bloodletters OR Plaguebearers OR Daemonettes
FA - 0-1 unit of Bloodcrushers OR Seekers OR Plauge Riders (? I honestly do not know the name of Nurgle one in this case)

I think this would allow for some Daemonic flavor to the cult legions without making the daemonic presence overwhelming. And thus keeping the Daemon Codex as a viable choice without resorting to "cookie cutter daemons".

Not going to happen, GW has eliminated 0-1 options (w/ the exception of wargear) from all of their books, they aren't going to add them in, nor are they going to dilute the Daemons as a standalone army by adding their units into another armies book.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Not going to happen, GW has eliminated 0-1 options (w/ the exception of wargear) from all of their books, they aren't going to add them in, nor are they going to dilute the Daemons as a standalone army by adding their units into another armies book.

0-1 may be gone

But "Unique" isnt

The generic demon stat line would be ideal. Greater demon statline in elites. Demon statline in troops. Call it a day. Leave it to the player to make his demons whatever he wants.

aka_mythos wrote:It's simply that by having Daemons in codex CSM both are limited by the space in the codex given the current format. Just to keep them in CSM they had to lose so much just because of those space limitations making a separate book the only option to give them that room. A separate codex then demands distinctiveness to be justifiable and that means they can't be as much of a part of CSM or else no one would have a reason to play the separate book.

Was it money grab? Of course, but no more than anything else GW does. It's none the less justifiable even if not desired.

You know and I know that this is a pretty weak response to gutting out the Chaos Marines, so I'm going to leave it at that.

I don't mind much of GW's choices and they're typically fairly good, but it's pretty hard to believe that anyone thinks that it was a good idea that Daemons and Marines were separated into different codices (except for yes-men)

chaos0xomega wrote:

DraconicGuardian wrote:I don't think it would be bad to put them back in the book as the regular daemons. You would just have to limit the numbers and probably the types too, so that there would still be a point to the Daemons codex.
Like I said, limiting the Daemons to 0-1 per FOC slot.
Something like this:
HQ - 0-1 Greater Daemon (all 4 types listed)
Elites - 0-1 unit of Bloodletters OR Plaguebearers OR Daemonettes
FA - 0-1 unit of Bloodcrushers OR Seekers OR Plauge Riders (? I honestly do not know the name of Nurgle one in this case)

I think this would allow for some Daemonic flavor to the cult legions without making the daemonic presence overwhelming. And thus keeping the Daemon Codex as a viable choice without resorting to "cookie cutter daemons".

Not going to happen, GW has eliminated 0-1 options (w/ the exception of wargear) from all of their books, they aren't going to add them in, nor are they going to dilute the Daemons as a standalone army by adding their units into another armies book.

Aren't Death Company 0-1 unless you take Astaroth?

Rbb wrote:But the CSM codex didn't gain anything when they lost daemons. There were no new units added. If they did add the ability to mark daemons or buy upgrades for them I would be happy. After seeing how they did the GK codex I'm very enthusiastic for the next Csm book. After the bland codex we've had for the past 5 years, almost anything would be better.

well they didn't do it to make you happy as it was obviously to the advantage of the daemons who gained a lot. Everyone admits the current Codex CSM was a wasted opportunity and that GW should've done more. GW's lack of effort with Chaos Space Marines for the last couple editions is a great shame, that even if you preferred the 3.5 edition codirects you would have to admit games workshop did little to expand the concept of chaos and merely refined some of the details. While all the most interesting codices of this addition have been the ones that have expanded on their core concepts.

aka_mythos wrote:

Rbb wrote:But the CSM codex didn't gain anything when they lost daemons. There were no new units added. If they did add the ability to mark daemons or buy upgrades for them I would be happy. After seeing how they did the GK codex I'm very enthusiastic for the next Csm book. After the bland codex we've had for the past 5 years, almost anything would be better.

well they didn't do it to make you happy as it was obviously to the advantage of the daemons who gained a lot. Everyone admits the current Codex CSM was a wasted opportunity and that GW should've done more. GW's lack of effort with Chaos Space Marines for the last couple editions is a great shame, that even if you preferred the 3.5 edition codirects you would have to admit games workshop did little to expand the concept of chaos and merely refined some of the details. While all the most interesting codices of this addition have been the ones that have expanded on their core concepts.

I don't mind consistent refinement. Can you expand on certain aspects? Of course. They expanded greatly on demons and then decided to split it off leaving CSM in the dust. My issue with more expansion every codex is the crap you get in the current GK dex. Dreadknights? Psiguns? Psiammos? Psibereagles? Psilencer? No thanks.
The concept and story of CSMs have already been created but I'd prefer it if they expand and refine on what they have already instead of blindly adding in new things, regardless of sillyness, just to have new models.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

And yeah, it would be nice if we actually got more Legion units to make up for the fact that we lost Daemons that we had had for more than 2 DECADES.

Tentatively agreeing. Traditionally (at least, AFAIR) Daemons never summoned themselves. They were minions (or equal) to the Chaos Marines, who sacrificed mass quantities of humans to bring them to them.

Could be wrong though. I don't remember daemons popping out of the sky in my third edition codex though.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

Wrong sir! Wrong!

Codex Chaos Daemons has its place in the game.

terranarc wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Rbb wrote:But the CSM codex didn't gain anything when they lost daemons. There were no new units added. If they did add the ability to mark daemons or buy upgrades for them I would be happy. After seeing how they did the GK codex I'm very enthusiastic for the next Csm book. After the bland codex we've had for the past 5 years, almost anything would be better.

well they didn't do it to make you happy as it was obviously to the advantage of the daemons who gained a lot. Everyone admits the current Codex CSM was a wasted opportunity and that GW should've done more. GW's lack of effort with Chaos Space Marines for the last couple editions is a great shame, that even if you preferred the 3.5 edition codirects you would have to admit games workshop did little to expand the concept of chaos and merely refined some of the details. While all the most interesting codices of this addition have been the ones that have expanded on their core concepts.

I don't mind consistent refinement. Can you expand on certain aspects? Of course. They expanded greatly on demons and then decided to split it off leaving CSM in the dust. My issue with more expansion every codex is the crap you get in the current GK dex. Dreadknights? Psiguns? Psiammos? Psibereagles? Psilencer? No thanks.
The concept and story of CSMs have already been created but I'd prefer it if they expand and refine on what they have already instead of blindly adding in new things, regardless of sillyness, just to have new models.

let's just hope chaos get's an official thunderstike assault gun, seeing as it would help alot

helium42 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

Wrong sir! Wrong!

Codex Chaos Daemons has its place in the game.

Lmao, I'm like, lmao

It has no place in the game and has no place in the fluff

Tentatively agreeing. Traditionally (at least, AFAIR) Daemons never summoned themselves. They were minions (or equal) to the Chaos Marines, who sacrificed mass quantities of humans to bring them to them.

While I hate the CSM/CD split mixup, this is just plain wrong.

Warpstorm randomly generated, random psyker possessions (that could cause a warp rift), not to mention Chaos Daemon Princes along with Greater daemons being able to personally rip normal space a new spacehole and generate warp rifts. Can produce them without need of chaos marines at all.

Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

It's happened often enough that there's a chapter of Space Marines dedicated to specifically dealing with just such an occurence, if you want to look at it like that.
Admittedly CSM doing it is more common, but it's not like rifts are a massively unheard-of or even rare thing.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

A tiny hole is made each time a ship heads into the warp. Now there is a of ships that enter the warp everyday. And many oftentimes even leave with daemons, or leave huge rips in space (Rare, but hey there's plenty of ways besides CSM that rips open things). Warp storms are also Surprisingly Common, to the point that many cities within such sectors have preparation plans for the Hive Cities in case of storm.

As for Common Occurrences.. How often does Gray knights come out to fight everyone and everything with Draigo and a bunch of paladins?

Guess I'll brush up on my fluff then. I'm totally out of the loop of everything, it seems.

Many times, daemons are summoned by mere cultists, with no need for CSM anywhere near.

Just a thought, but if GW continues to like dual kits, and we hear about kits for Legion s, how much sense would a Raptors/Night Lords kit make? All it would need would be 5 extra torso fronts and two sets of heads.

Not a rumor, but it would make sense.

MajorWesJanson wrote:Many times, daemons are summoned by mere cultists, with no need for CSM anywhere near.

Just a thought, but if GW continues to like dual kits, and we hear about kits for Legion s, how much sense would a Raptors/Night Lords kit make? All it would need would be 5 extra torso fronts and two sets of heads.

Not a rumor, but it would make sense.

Uh, why again would Raptors and Night Lords necessarily share any bits at all? They are totally different.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

It's happened often enough that there's a chapter of Space Marines dedicated to specifically dealing with just such an occurence, if you want to look at it like that.
Admittedly CSM doing it is more common, but it's not like rifts are a massively unheard-of or even rare thing.

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.