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Dude's, as long as I get a psychic hood or get to make some punks peril, I will *flex* and be happy with the new codex. The thing I am DEFINITELY tired of though is this song and dance of "oh you used a power? nope" from what seems like every army in the game when we get nothing similar. The two powers which were exceptionally cool in this codex got FAQ'd into oblivion to the point where they are barely useful. Warp Time? Joke. Lash? I played 4 games today at my FLGS - take a guess how many times my sorcerer decided to not hit with my non-wounding, ballistics skill rolling "shooting attack". When powers like Jaws of the World Wolf don't roll hits, but remove models or half of a squad without needing to roll to hit.

I call shenanigans. Give me a psychic hood. Let me force mishaps or perils on people. Let me randomly fire someone else's psychic powers. Let me do *something* with my awesome-sauce Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes and Characters besides suck down points and FAIL their way across the table.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Lmao, I'm like, lmao

It has no place in the game and has no place in the fluff

Yes there is... Fluff wise there are daemon planets and daemonic incursions that happen without Chaos space marines.

The fact that 40k focuses on armies like GK, SOB, or the combined volume of SM... Armies that by fluff total fewer than 2 million troops across the galaxy... Makes it easily justifiable that an army composed of something as plentiful as daemons would be more common. To put it another way a players' army represent ~100 soldiers out of millions in a warzone... and from that standpoint if 100 demons can coalesce and form a fighting unit without the presence of a Chaos Space Marine and contribute to that battle zone in a meaningful way they are justified by themselves.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.

No one clamored for Tau, Necrons, or SoB back in the day either. The point I'm insistent on is more daemons would never be possible so long as they were part of the CSM codex because there simply wasn't the room for it.

Saying a mini-WD codex is the solution is a throw away and doesn't accomplish the main goal of justifying GW large capital investment into a large but otherwise secondary miniature line. It was a case of Daemons get a codex or they don't get new plastic miniatures.

terranarc wrote:I don't mind consistent refinement. Can you expand on certain aspects? Of course. They expanded greatly on demons and then decided to split it off leaving CSM in the dust. My issue with more expansion every codex is the crap you get in the current GK dex. Dreadknights? Psiguns? Psiammos? Psibereagles? Psilencer? No thanks.

Spot the guy who apparently never read Daemonhunters, or played second edition - only two of those five items (Dreadknights and Psilencers) are actually new with the GK book.

Njal Stormcaller had the first psi-familiar back in the 2nd edition Space Wolves codex.
Psiguns (by which I'm guessing you mean psycannon, as I'm not familiar with any others in the GK book) were a wargear card in Dark Millennium in second addition.
Psychic ammunition was an upgrade in Daemonhunters.

Actually, the only reason 40K got a Daemons Codex was because they were already producing the models for Fantasy, as they'd split chaos into 3 branches there. So why not cash in on 40K too.

So while they won't make space-Skaven, space-Dwarves or any other derivative fantasy line, they'll poop out a "new" codex line because they're here to sell miniatures. That's why we got a 40K codex. It's the only miniatures that sell to both sides with the exact same figures, so they're doubling up on profit. When that profit line has run its course, we'll see if they discontinue the 40K codex.

...... are there any actual rumors on the codex coming out?

My understanding of the rumor mill is CSM Dex in May. There will be two different ones with 4 chapters each. One is the godded CSM (Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons) the other is traitors (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, forgot 4th). There are rumors that rules for traitor guard and traitor vanilla legions, cultists etc. will be there in respective Dex.

How has this demon wishlisting gone on this long? It idiotic.

GW WILL NOT include demons in ANY future CSM codex. Stop being naive.

We'll probably get generic demons that get different abilities via marks, as has been suggested earlier. Sorry word bearers, GW doesn't care.

Salacious Greed wrote:Actually, the only reason 40K got a Daemons Codex was because they were already producing the models for Fantasy, as they'd split chaos into 3 branches there. So why not cash in on 40K too.

Well, there was a precedent for a Daemon army list - I direct your attention to the "Daemon World" army list in the classic Chaos codex - still the best version of the army book yet produced, back in second edition.

odorofdeath wrote:How has this demon wishlisting gone on this long? It idiotic.

I might have to agree. Daemons and Chaos Marines may be the same "faction" and may have been in the same book long before, but I think we are veering way off course the topic of the new CSM

Hearing some great rumours about chaos, hope they come true. I heard that there will be thousand sons, and slaaneshi terminator upgrades released by forgeworld.

odorofdeath wrote:How has this demon wishlisting gone on this long? It idiotic.

I think that's a bit strong. The only universality when it comes to Games Workshop, Chaos Mortals and their demonic allies is--that is very likely to change over the years. This has held true in Fantasy--as well as 40k.

Blackeye wrote:My understanding of the rumor mill is CSM Dex in May. There will be two different ones with 4 chapters each. One is the godded CSM (Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons) the other is traitors (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, forgot 4th). There are rumors that rules for traitor guard and traitor vanilla legions, cultists etc. will be there in respective Dex.

that won't happen as reliable rumormongers have said one book

its been said it would be in may for a bit now. any new news/idea when in may?

early may?
late may?

news on models?

....news on anything?

marmaduke wrote:its been said it would be in may for a bit now. any new news/idea when in may?

early may?
late may?

news on models?

....news on anything?

Maybe the tumbleweeds floating about may have some info

Dysartes wrote:

terranarc wrote:I don't mind consistent refinement. Can you expand on certain aspects? Of course. They expanded greatly on demons and then decided to split it off leaving CSM in the dust. My issue with more expansion every codex is the crap you get in the current GK dex. Dreadknights? Psiguns? Psiammos? Psibereagles? Psilencer? No thanks.

Spot the guy who apparently never read Daemonhunters, or played second edition - only two of those five items (Dreadknights and Psilencers) are actually new with the GK book.

Njal Stormcaller had the first psi-familiar back in the 2nd edition Space Wolves codex.
Psiguns (by which I'm guessing you mean psycannon, as I'm not familiar with any others in the GK book) were a wargear card in Dark Millennium in second addition.
Psychic ammunition was an upgrade in Daemonhunters.

This. People whine about everything about the Grey Knights Codex, including stuff that was around way before 5th or even 4th edition. It makes me die a little inside every time I read it.

marmaduke wrote:its been said it would be in may for a bit now. any new news/idea when in may?

early may?
late may?

news on models?

....news on anything?

It looking more and more like May, which is coming from several sources now. Does it really matter what part of May the release comes, though? After 5 years does a couple weeks really matter? I'd say early in the month is usually when new books come out, with model releases spread out over the whole month.

Anything model related is pure speculation, aside from what the most reliable rumormongers like harry and Hastings have said. But even if they seen models it does necessarily make them a 1st wave release. For instance, there is said to be a plastic dreadnought in the starter, but that doesn't mean there will be a multipart version available at the codex release. (For what it's worth I tend to doubt that a multipart dreadnought won't be available separate from the starter box dread.)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

This. People whine about everything about the Grey Knights Codex, including stuff that was around way before 5th or even 4th edition. It makes me die a little inside every time I read it.

People do this for every army. Look at the current stuff in this very thread about Daemons. People hold whatever codex was available when they started as sacrosanct; anything prior is irrelevant and anything after is blasphemy.

aka_mythos wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Lmao, I'm like, lmao

It has no place in the game and has no place in the fluff

Yes there is... Fluff wise there are daemon planets and daemonic incursions that happen without Chaos space marines.

The fact that 40k focuses on armies like GK, SOB, or the combined volume of SM... Armies that by fluff total fewer than 2 million troops across the galaxy... Makes it easily justifiable that an army composed of something as plentiful as daemons would be more common. To put it another way a players' army represent ~100 soldiers out of millions in a warzone... and from that standpoint if 100 demons can coalesce and form a fighting unit without the presence of a Chaos Space Marine and contribute to that battle zone in a meaningful way they are justified by themselves.

Space Marines have been there from the beginning, it's not the same thing. GK have been there since RT, SoB have debatably been around since Rogue Trader.
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.

No one clamored for Tau, Necrons, or SoB back in the day either. The point I'm insistent on is more daemons would never be possible so long as they were part of the CSM codex because there simply wasn't the room for it.

Saying a mini-WD codex is the solution is a throw away and doesn't accomplish the main goal of justifying GW large capital investment into a large but otherwise secondary miniature line. It was a case of Daemons get a codex or they don't get new plastic miniatures.

People wanted SoB, there was a picture of one in the RT rulebook but they weren't called SoB then. The thing about Tau and Necrons is that at least they appealed to a different target market. They all fit in their own little niche in the WH40k lore. Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

Anyway, from the looks of it, the new Starter set is supposed to include Plaguebearers so the new Chaos codex should include them. And then nothing of value is lost.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

Anyway, from the looks of it, the new Starter set is supposed to include Plaguebearers so the new Chaos codex should include them. And then nothing of value is lost.

That is patently false. There are plenty of Daemon players who could care less about CSMs or want powerarmored pals with their Daemons. To think you speak for an entire playerbase of an army is so absurd, I find it really hard to believe you actually think this, and are more likely just bitter about daemons not being in the CSM codex.

There is nothing concrete saying plaguebearers are in the starter box. The only person who claimed this was ghost21, so I hardly think that's reliable info. The only mention of plaguebearers was from Hastings, who just said he had seen plastic plaguebearers, but never gave any indication they were part of a CSM release. GW works on many projects at once, and it's far more likely plastic plaguebearers will be released when daemons get a codex update.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

[MOD EDIT - Now that wasn't very polite, was it?]



Sorry, could'n resist.

[MOD EDIT - please try to resist in the future though - thanks!]

You must not be very familiar with 9GAG, this image wasn't an insult at all,its a gag, or should i say an advanced smiley.

Blackeye wrote:My understanding of the rumor mill is CSM Dex in May. There will be two different ones with 4 chapters each. One is the godded CSM (Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons) the other is traitors (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, forgot 4th). There are rumors that rules for traitor guard and traitor vanilla legions, cultists etc. will be there in respective Dex.

sure do hope the 4th would be word bearers if this is true

but i agree with some people above, the last topic got closed because of too much offtopic talk, so please just stick to news & rumors about the Chaos Legions really hoping for something good here

Cadaver wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

Anyway, from the looks of it, the new Starter set is supposed to include Plaguebearers so the new Chaos codex should include them. And then nothing of value is lost.

That is patently false. There are plenty of Daemon players who could care less about CSMs or want powerarmored pals with their Daemons. To think you speak for an entire playerbase of an army is so absurd, I find it really hard to believe you actually think this, and are more likely just bitter about daemons not being in the CSM codex.

There is nothing concrete saying plaguebearers are in the starter box. The only person who claimed this was ghost21, so I hardly think that's reliable info. The only mention of plaguebearers was from Hastings, who just said he had seen plastic plaguebearers, but never gave any indication they were part of a CSM release. GW works on many projects at once, and it's far more likely plastic plaguebearers will be released when daemons get a codex update.

This is actually pretty new, I never have come across people who don't want Daemons rolled back into a Chaos codex.
I actually do believe that Daemons should be in a Chaos codex, so? And I'm not really bitter, I just think that the Daemons codex should be rolled into a Chaos codex-where they belong.

Also intredasting about there not being plastic plaguebearers in the starter set, that's too bad. Doesn't bother me too much since I play Khorne though haha

:edit: What's up Austin Texas, do you go to UT? I don't have any of my models with me but am curious as to where you can play warhams in Austin

Slayer le boucher wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

[MOD EDIT - Now that wasn't very polite, was it?]

[img]http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/1/12/15607-Artwork,%20Chaos,%20Copyright%20Games%20Workshop,%20Slaves%20To%20Darkness.JPG[/mg]

Sorry, could'n resist.

[MOD EDIT - please try to resist in the future though - thanks!]

Lmao, I knew someone was going to bring this up. You could have Daemon armies fight eachother for the enjoyment of the Chaos gods. But they had to fight eachother. So I will amend my statement to "it wasn't up until recently that you could have an all-Daemon army fight outside the Realms of Chaos".

Vladsimpaler wrote:Lmao, I knew someone was going to bring this up. You could have Daemon armies fight eachother for the enjoyment of the Chaos gods. But they had to fight eachother. So I will amend my statement to "it wasn't up until recently that you could have an all-Daemon army fight outside the Realms of Chaos".

*sounds buzzer*

Still factually incorrect, old chap. If I may quote myself from earlier in the thread:

Dysartes wrote:Well, there was a precedent for a Daemon army list - I direct your attention to the "Daemon World" army list in the classic Chaos codex - still the best version of the army book yet produced, back in second edition.

So, by my estimation, we have definite evidence for Daemon army lists in 1st, 2nd and 5th edition (possibly 4th, but I'm not clear on when the Daemon codex was released). The only edition without a Chaos Daemons army list is 3rd.

Care to try again with your assertion?

Vladsimpaler wrote:

This is actually pretty new, I never have come across people who don't want Daemons rolled back into a Chaos codex.
I actually do believe that Daemons should be in a Chaos codex, so? And I'm not really bitter, I just think that the Daemons codex should be rolled into a Chaos codex-where they belong.

Also interesting about there not being plastic plaguebearers in the starter set, that's too bad. Doesn't bother me too much since I play Khorne though

Believe what you want but whether you or anyone around wanted Daemons, they are bigger now than they were when they were crammed into a shared codex with CSM. Regardless of IF that's where the majority of people believe Daemons should be, the simple fact is that it requires so much of Daemons to be left out, and that its only been that they now have their own book that GW's been able to revisit some of the original units and idea from "Realms of Chaos." For me fully representing Chaos Daemons without leaving anything out is just enough of a reason. Would it be beyond amazing if Chaos could have everything in one big book?-Sure, but that's not realistic. So you're left with only two possibilities one where something is marginalized and one where a niche army gets a full codex. While I don't think Codex Daemons was handled particularly well, they are conceptually easily more distinctive and justifiable than any given Space Marine variant codex.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Lmao, I knew someone was going to bring this up. You could have Daemon armies fight each other for the enjoyment of the Chaos gods. But they had to fight each other. So I will amend my statement to "it wasn't up until recently that you could have an all-Daemon army fight outside the Realms of Chaos".

I don't think that matters much given how much it was about flavorful choices back then and how many limited and small army concepts have been allowed to grow to much more. YOU cling to absolute language stating something is a particular way but then speak with condescension when someone presents facts to the contrary. You fixate on the detail that it was only daemons vs. daemons, but it was a larger leap to allow a single unit like GK to become a full army than to simply allow an army to fight other armies than how it was originally intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Space Marines have been there from the beginning, it's not the same thing. GK have been there since RT, SoB have debatable been around since Rogue Trader.
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

Space marines may have been there, but chaos daemons were introduced in WD in the same way that 90% of space marines tanks and units beyond the basic power armored variety... so I see Chaos and Chaos Daemons as no different. GK started as a smaller concept and was allowed to grow. Daemons are a much bigger one that are easily more justifiable for similar or more significant growth.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
People wanted SoB, there was a picture of one in the RT rulebook but they weren't called SoB then. The thing about Tau and Necrons is that at least they appealed to a different target market. They all fit in their own little niche in the WH40k lore. Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

No ones forcing anyone to do anything. The simple fact is every codex revises the way you play an army. With each edition every army is faced with rule driven obsolecene. CSM marginalized Daemons while Codex Chaos Daemons allowed you to do much more. Regardless of Codex Daemons the marginalization of Daemons in Codex Chaos Space Marine was going to happen so those players would lose the ability to which you speak without a separate book. So people who played Daemon heavy armies were faced with a choice, a choice few of us get... play a watered down version with what you have or simply buy a different book to the exclusion of the other book.

GW's own internal investors report on the expansion of product lines for Daemons was that they are an army targeted at a different market by allowing an easy transition for WFB player to 40k... that's a different target market.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

It's happened often enough that there's a chapter of Space Marines dedicated to specifically dealing with just such an occurence, if you want to look at it like that.
Admittedly CSM doing it is more common, but it's not like rifts are a massively unheard-of or even rare thing.

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.

Your first comment I totally disagreed with I think the Daemon dex does have a place. If you where doing something where someone was trapped in the EoT Daemon world army lists would be rather common.

But the only reason I see for the Daemon Dex is marketing went "Wow Chaos players sure like Daemons... I got it lets make a Daemon Dex and make plastic kits for them, we will sell a bucket load of them!" Might of been a better idea of they kept them cross codex CSM/Daemons.

If they'd just bring back the "Ally" Rules for Chaos/Chaos Daemons. We could have an actual reason for them to be separate books and placate the chaos crowd. Just give chaos some summoning rules for them, and daemons maybe a restriction on how many CSM they could take...

ZebioLizard2 wrote:If they'd just bring back the "Ally" Rules for Chaos/Chaos Daemons. We could have an actual reason for them to be separate books and placate the chaos crowd. Just give chaos some summoning rules for them, and daemons maybe a restriction on how many CSM they could take...

Allies made too much sense which is why they dropped it for normal games in both fantasy and 40k

Was going to post since it would be beating a dead horse but... Didn't Grey Knights use to only be a elite choice for Imperial Armies back in the day? In all honesty their is more argument for grey knights not being a standalone army in the game, then Codex: Deamons.

If Deamons have no place as a stand alone army in the game, then Grey knights sure as hell don't.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:If they'd just bring back the "Ally" Rules for Chaos/Chaos Daemons. We could have an actual reason for them to be separate books and placate the chaos crowd. Just give chaos some summoning rules for them, and daemons maybe a restriction on how many CSM they could take...

Ally rules are way to abusable IMHO. "Oh hey. So I can take the most broken units from TWO armies and put them in the same list? Why wouldn't I want to do this?"

My personal experience with allied rules were not that great, as it just diluted the game.
=U

Grey Knights were an army back in the day, but differed little from regular Marine armies. They had a specialist Terminator Squad, but that was about it. They had the same Medics and Tech-Marines and whatnot like everyone else.

In 2nd Ed, when 40K got organised, they became a single 5-man Termy unit as part of the Imperial Agents army list (which was basically a random ally army list, containing everything from Inquisitors to Electro-Priests to Sisters of Battle). In 3rd they were originally a 5-man Terminator unit only playable against Chaos, but eventually got the Daemonhunter Codex to expand them into full list.

Really there’s nothing wrong with a Daemonic Legions Codex (I think their implementation was rather silly, but the concept was fine). What was wrong was taking Daemons out of the Chaos Codex.

I agree with the theory that the Daemons/CSM split was a marketing decision. Whilst a Daemons-only army list might be justifiable, it would have been better off as a WD army list or part of a EoT style expansion book IMO.

The split left both factions worse for ware. Daemons were removed from the CSM book but nothing was added to fill the void. Additionally, the Daemons book is incredibly shallow and there’s not enough content (or quality rules) to justify a “separation of powers”. I think the best solution would be to re-add daemons to the CSM codex and update Daemons for 6th via a WD update.

Lockark wrote:Was going to post since it would be beating a dead horse but... Didn't Grey Knights use to only be a elite choice for Imperial Armies back in the day? In all honesty their is more argument for grey knights not being a standalone army in the game, then Codex: Deamons.

If Deamons have no place as a stand alone army in the game, then Grey knights sure as hell don't.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:If they'd just bring back the "Ally" Rules for Chaos/Chaos Daemons. We could have an actual reason for them to be separate books and placate the chaos crowd. Just give chaos some summoning rules for them, and daemons maybe a restriction on how many CSM they could take...

Ally rules are way to abusable IMHO. "Oh hey. So I can take the most broken units from TWO armies and put them in the same list? Why wouldn't I want to do this?"

My personal experience with allied rules were not that great, as it just diluted the game.
=U

That reasoning is why we got a watered down piece of trash SoB codex. So I'm not exactly happy with its loss either. Make it specific units than.