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ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That reasoning is why we got a watered down piece of trash SoB codex. So I'm not exactly happy with its loss either. Make it specific units than.

SoB being trashy has more to do with White Dwarf codexes than losing allies. Ask any BA player that.

Now I suppose a more better example of allies would be the Beasts of Chaos....I'm sorry I meant Beastmen Army book who lost the ability to have some nice heavily armored troops and daemons (along with a lot of other things )

Why does chaos tend to have the factions that get shafted I suppose its their chaotic nature

helium42 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

Wrong sir! Wrong!

Codex Chaos Daemons has its place in the game.

AGREED!

/proud Chaos Daemons player

Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

Its a big galaxy and we're playing over a several thousand year period (not every one of our games need to be set during M41), often enough. Not to mention that there is this large chunk of space called the Eye of Terror, where the warp bleeds into real space and daemonic incursions occur into imperial (and presumably other) worlds regularly. Never heard of it? Huh.... How about the smaller brother known as the Maelstrom? No? Maybe one of the other HUNDREDS/thousands of warpstorms in the galaxy?

It's happened often enough that there's a chapter of Space Marines dedicated to specifically dealing with just such an occurence, if you want to look at it like that.
Admittedly CSM doing it is more common, but it's not like rifts are a massively unheard-of or even rare thing.

If by chapter you mean at least 2... (You forgot about the Exorcists).

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.

Sounds like sour grapes to me. In reality we were clamoring for Lost and the Damned and they gave us this instead, but I like my Daemons without marines thank you very much. Kindly keep your hands off them.

My understanding of the rumor mill is CSM Dex in May. There will be two different ones with 4 chapters each. One is the godded CSM (Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons) the other is traitors (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, forgot 4th). There are rumors that rules for traitor guard and traitor vanilla legions, cultists etc. will be there in respective Dex.

My understanding is that its one book for the 8 legions, and the second book for renegades, cultists, and generic traitors ala lost and the damned.

Space Marines have been there from the beginning, it's not the same thing. GK have been there since RT, SoB have debatably been around since Rogue Trader.
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

Did you miss the part about the Daemon World army list from over a decade ago?

They all fit in their own little niche in the WH40k lore. Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book.

WRONG!!! OMG, are you just making stuff up now?I have not now nor have I ever played Chaos Marines, and yet I own a Daemon army... In fact, i've invested hundreds of dollars as of late to triple its size... Daemons fills a niche just as the Tau and Necrons do, so thats just a complete bogus argument too. Just give up man, you're not getting your daemons back. Don't take the UNVERIFIED RUMOR that the starter set contains a unit of daemons in it to mean that you're getting daemons in your codex...

And in case you're wondering, the reason why the Daemons were removed from the CSM book is the Slaaneshi Daemon Bomb army. Yes, i know most of you youngins have long forgotten about one of the most abused and broken army lists from the 3.5 ed codex, but its the truth. Marines were increasingly playing second-fiddle to the daemons in their own codex, the design studio resolved the issue by separating the two.

The split left both factions worse for ware. Daemons were removed from the CSM book but nothing was added to fill the void. Additionally, the Daemons book is incredibly shallow and there’s not enough content (or quality rules) to justify a “separation of powers”.

What!? Are you kidding me? Its a great book, it has its flaws but it was and is a very playable army and it has a good amount of content relative to other books released around the same time. 9 special characters of which 7 are HQ, plus another 8 non special character HQs, 4 Elites Choices, 5 Troops Choices, 4 Fast, and 2 Heavy. Thats actually more content than the CSM book has, although rather than just having a weak Fast section the Daemons have both a weak fast and a sub-par heavy.

As for nothing 'filling the void', what void? The daemons didn't really provide the book with anything that they didn't already have aside from an overly-abused style of play which opponents had no effective answer to.

What!? Are you kidding me? Its a great book, it has its flaws but it was and is a very playable army and it has a good amount of content relative to other books released around the same time. 9 special characters of which 7 are HQ, plus another 8 non special character HQs, 4 Elites Choices, 5 Troops Choices, 4 Fast, and 2 Heavy. Thats actually more content than the CSM book has, although rather than just having a weak Fast section the Daemons have both a weak fast and a sub-par heavy.

You mean the exact same stuff that Chaos Daemons Fantasy had gotten at the exact same time?

The only reason you have more is because there was plenty taken away from CSM, and you had two books that gave the same stuff.

candy.man wrote:I agree with the theory that the Daemons/CSM split was a marketing decision. Whilst a Daemons-only army list might be justifiable, it would have been better off as a WD army list or part of a EoT style expansion book IMO.

It’s not a ‘theory’; it’s what happened. On his blog, Gav stated that the generic ‘Lesser’ and ‘Greater’ daemons were the compromise he got when he wanted to keep Daemons in the current ‘Chaos’ Codex. We have a Codexaemons because of bean-counters, not because of any great thematic design decision.

candy.man wrote:The split left both factions worse for ware. Daemons were removed from the CSM book but nothing was added to fill the void. Additionally, the Daemons book is incredibly shallow and there’s not enough content (or quality rules) to justify a “separation of powers”. I think the best solution would be to re-add daemons to the CSM codex and update Daemons for 6th via a WD update.

I'd like that as well. Want your Deep Striking Daemon army? Take a Herald as your lead HQ. Want a World Eater army with proper Blood Letters, take a Khorne Marked Lord and take tham as Troops. Easy.

I'd like that as well. Want your Deep Striking Daemon army? Take a Herald as your lead HQ. Want a World Eater army with proper Blood Letters, take a Khorne Marked Lord and take tham as Troops. Easy.

I'd love to have the option for some Flamers to spark up my Thousand Sons as well, but I think we all know that won't happen. Maybe Word Bearers... but probably not. Honestly, I would settle for a generic, modular Demon frame for both Lesser and Greater.

The only good thing about not having the deamons back in the Legion codex, would be that there is thus more room for new units.

But i still hope that you can take "Marked" Deamons,
Like give Summoned Deamons a Khorne "Aspect" or "Mark" and they gain +1 WS and Ferocious Charge and so on.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Cadaver wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

Anyway, from the looks of it, the new Starter set is supposed to include Plaguebearers so the new Chaos codex should include them. And then nothing of value is lost.

That is patently false. There are plenty of Daemon players who could care less about CSMs or want powerarmored pals with their Daemons. To think you speak for an entire playerbase of an army is so absurd, I find it really hard to believe you actually think this, and are more likely just bitter about daemons not being in the CSM codex.

There is nothing concrete saying plaguebearers are in the starter box. The only person who claimed this was ghost21, so I hardly think that's reliable info. The only mention of plaguebearers was from Hastings, who just said he had seen plastic plaguebearers, but never gave any indication they were part of a CSM release. GW works on many projects at once, and it's far more likely plastic plaguebearers will be released when daemons get a codex update.

This is actually pretty new, I never have come across people who don't want Daemons rolled back into a Chaos codex.
I actually do believe that Daemons should be in a Chaos codex, so? And I'm not really bitter, I just think that the Daemons codex should be rolled into a Chaos codex-where they belong.

Also intredasting about there not being plastic plaguebearers in the starter set, that's too bad. Doesn't bother me too much since I play Khorne though haha

:edit: What's up Austin Texas, do you go to UT? I don't have any of my models with me but am curious as to where you can play warhams in Austin

The point you seemed to be making was that there was not interest in a pure daemon army prior to the daemon codex being released. I was disagreeing with that statement, not that people didn't want daemons in a CSM codex. Of course CSM players want their deamons, I sure do! That being said, I also want a pure daemon option, and there are many daemon players that are not CSM players.


I'm quite a few years past college age, but I did not go to UT. Dragon's Lair is the best gaming store in town, but there are a few others around, they just aren't as big. You can also check out the local Austin forum here if you want to chat with the local gamers around here, but you'll need to register to access the forums.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Grey Knights were an army back in the day, but differed little from regular Marine armies. They had a specialist Terminator Squad, but that was about it. They had the same Medics and Tech-Marines and whatnot like everyone else.

In 2nd Ed, when 40K got organised, they became a single 5-man Termy unit as part of the Imperial Agents army list (which was basically a random ally army list, containing everything from Inquisitors to Electro-Priests to Sisters of Battle). In 3rd they were originally a 5-man Terminator unit only playable against Chaos, but eventually got the Daemonhunter Codex to expand them into full list.

Really there’s nothing wrong with a Daemonic Legions Codex (I think their implementation was rather silly, but the concept was fine). What was wrong was taking Daemons out of the Chaos Codex.

Thank you for the history leason.

But yah. We're fairly on the same page in all honesty. Thow I don't consider the Generic Deamons "taking Daemons out of the Chaos Codex", but more "Removing their flavour". A issue I'm sure everyone agrees the whole 4th ed book suffers from.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That reasoning is why we got a watered down piece of trash SoB codex. So I'm not exactly happy with its loss either. Make it specific units than.

The SoB WD has issues with it sure, but I don't think "lack of ally rules" is the issue. I describe it as "Lack of any rules that are interesting, compelling, and overly competitive. I've seen people run prety strong armies with the WD, but it's very bear bones and you only can realy only get one good list out of it.

I also should of made my self more clear. Ally rules IN THE WARHAMMER GAMES. If everything was updated in one go like in the other smaller games, then yah ally/merc rules work. Since you know ahead of time how everything will balance/interact when it goes out. The problem is in WHFB/WH40k we get army updates, so what can be balenced at 1st becomes broken when another books gets updated.

=U

Im a new csm player welk waiting on my model to arrive at the shop here but when the does finally come out how will i know

My solution to the Daemons or no Daemons debate:

Keep the Daemons separate, keep the Lesser/Greater Daemon choices in the CSM book as they are now (restat/repoint/rebalance as appropriate). When summoning the Daemons, roll a d6:
1- Generic/Mark of Chaos Undivided
2-Mark of Slaanesh
3-Mark of Nurgle
4-Mark of Khorne
5-Mark of Tzeentch
6-Players Choice
The daemons will be summoned with the upgrade based on the dice roll. If the summoning unit has a mark (other than mark of chaos undivided), then summoned daemons will automatically have that mark as well.

The nature of these upgrades/marks is up to a game designer to decide, IMO, they should NOT be the same thing as the traditional Daemonette/Plaguebearer/Bloodletter/Horror, but they should certainly be fluffy and reasonable. This system keeps with the theme of chaos (randomness) and is fluffy, as most times in the fluff the nature of the daemons being summoned is seemingly unknown until after they manifest. Its luck of the draw really.

Some how I doubt Berserkers praying at their Icon of Khorne would be happy to find demonettes using their newly opened blood portal... skull door..... whatever.

Oh yeah. Random daemon summoning. Great idea.



That was sarcasm.

I would far rather see them markable as a buyable upgrade when you are paying for the unit than having random daemons popping out. Tactically and thematically, I just don't like that idea.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh yeah. Random daemon summoning. Great idea.



That was sarcasm.

Good grief, me and you agreeing on something for once!

I just want the "Chaos" element to the book to be real, and not "D6" based all the time. I dont mind the old Crazed rules for Dreadnought, but loathe Possessed.

It looks like chaos0xomega continues his trend of making posts I dislike with every molecule of my wargaming spirit.

The SoB WD has issues with it sure, but I don't think "lack of ally rules" is the issue. I describe it as "Lack of any rules that are interesting, compelling, and overly competitive. I've seen people run prety strong armies with the WD, but it's very bear bones and you only can realy only get one good list out of it.

Not the reasoning I was using. I was mainly thinking along the lines they really desperately wanted to get rid of the last bit of ally rules, and completely trashed the SoB to a WD-Dex.

I just want the "Chaos" element to the book to be real, and not "D6" based all the time. I dont mind the old Crazed rules for Dreadnought, but loathe Possessed.

I wouldn't mind Possessed if the rules were all GOOD ones, not 1-3 good ones and 3 other horrible ones. Though I'd prefer a purchase system for most of them, with a random D6 roll for an extra bonus on top.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh yeah. Random daemon summoning. Great idea.

That was sarcasm.

Good grief, me and you agreeing on something for once!

I just want the "Chaos" element to the book to be real, and not "D6" based all the time. I dont mind the old Crazed rules for Dreadnought, but loathe Possessed.

Bu-bu-but, don't you like it when your army plays for you and "helps" your strategies right out the window?

That random stuff worked back when everyone had to contend with it, and there was a level of humor in the game. Its an antiquated means of representing a units inconsistencies and really should have died, two editions ago.

I don't really care about Daemons, I use them to represent my Nightblade's aspirants who beam in against Power Armored enemies and if they defeat them, salvage their armor...but that's it. I've been told I should just use C:SM or C:SW to play my Nightblades, but I like mixing in elements from my World Eaters, and my friends let me use the drop pod rules so I'm pretty happy just using C:CSM.

I'd like official rules to use Drop pod assault rules for Chaos Space Marines, and mutable generic daemons/ G Daemons would be cool.

I wonder what, if anything GW is going to do to the 'basic' Chaos Space Marine statline and abilities that will differentiate them from Space Wolf Grey Hunters and the like, how will they change/improve Cult Marines?

I'm a little nervous at the thought of my World Eaters becoming subject to Rage like I've read they were "Back Before I played" though if having that meant that there was very little chance of psychic powers effecting them at all...I'd be OK with it. And I'd like to see Thousand Sons that weren't ruberics/robots (Deathguard are the zombies of the bunch...Ksons are more like automatons), or maybe have sorcerors able to cast a spell which improves weapon strength and AP on nearby friendly units? I know Chaos isn't know for synergistic cooperative things, but it could be interesting.

I'll probably never ever use Deathguard, simply cause I don't like Nurgle...and I don't like Mortarion either. Same reason I would never play Word Bearers, was cause I hate their daddy most (Thumbs up to ADB for confirming in First Heretic what I'd always thought about that wienie.)

Noise marines...while the shooting is appealing, I don't like the Emperor's children (or Slaanesh), and I don't care for the fluff behind the noise marines.

I want to get 2 dreads for my World Eaters...but the prospect of GW releasing a Plastic CSM Dread has me waiting (that, and I don't know how things will change). I'm really at the "Paint and Wait" stage.

Any new rumors, or are we just at the wishlisting stage, now?

kronk wrote:Any new rumors, or are we just at the wishlisting stage, now?

Been at the wishlisting stage for quite some time now.

ph34r wrote:It looks like chaos0xomega continues his trend of making posts I dislike with every molecule of my wargaming spirit.

Amen-the D6 idea for daemons is terrible. I'm playing an Emperor's Children army, summon daemons...and they're Plaguebearers?! WTF. Okay, who screwed up with the summoning...Lucius, dude...not cool. Somebody needs a coke-flavored spanking (I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, don't ask).

And yeah, this thread got abysmally useless. Can we have a MOD lock it until Kroot or someone else of similar rumor-posting ability has more to tell us? I've sifted through the last 4-5 pages (I think) to hopefully catch a bit of information I've missed, and it's all junk. I may have posted something within those 4-5 pages, but it's all still wishlisting and garbage (including my own post, probably-just so you guys know I'm not just harking on all of you).

Brother SRM wrote:

kronk wrote:Any new rumors, or are we just at the wishlisting stage, now?

Been at the wishlisting stage for quite some time now.

Again, actually.

So, this is closed up until such a time as there are actual rumors, pictures, news, etc.

In the meantime, feel free to wishlist, discuss, dream, etc. over in a thread in 40K General...