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I'm sure the game gets better as the resource limit goes up, but I think if someone is just starting out, these are the limitations he or she will face.

Is the game considered unplayable at this level or just roughtly balanced?

The problem is, Vandalands have not spent lumber or gold with this setup while Zabar runs out of everything by just picking up these units unupgraded.

So if the unit prices are ignored and heroes can't buy banners, horns and items, is the game roughty playable?

Vandalands has cheap troops, and an army rule to have them get more of those cheap troops.

Zabar has more costly troops that are better equiped and cannot amass them as well as other factions.


The Warbands are great starting points, but not great ending points.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I'm sure the game gets better as the resource limit goes up, but I think if someone is just starting out, these are the limitations he or she will face.

It's something you experience with almost every wargame. Though in my experiences, Brushfire plays extremely well with warbands. The Warbands with the quickstart rules explain what you need so that you may learn the basics of the game. Once you start buying more, then you move into the bigger rulebook. Getting used to the extra resources is certainly something that someone will have to get used to, just like someone learning Malifaux has to get used to the addition of a soulstone cache.

Is the game considered unplayable at this level or just roughtly balanced?

It's completely playable the balance might be a little rough but there were only 2 warbands that proved to be a bad matchup. Balance was still all roughly there.

The problem is, Vandalands have not spent lumber or gold with this setup while Zabar runs out of everything by just picking up these units unupgraded.

So if the unit prices are ignored and heroes can't buy banners, horns and items, is the game roughty playable?

Cy answered a chunk of this quote, but remember with a warband vs warband game you're only seeking to teach the basics. So you need to learn about activations, phases, making attacks, defending against attacks, squad creation on the fly, heroic and tactical actions. You don't need banners, horns, or items to make the game playable. it plays just fine without these

I think we will start with the Warbands.

The next level we can play is an 50 resource game. We don't have enough models yet to go further up.

There is no harm in playing at this size, or using proxies to try out higher levels.


We provide base size templates in the back of the rulebook for that reason.

 Cyporiean wrote:
There is no harm in playing at this size, or using proxies to try out higher levels.


We provide base size templates in the back of the rulebook for that reason.

*cough* Paperfire >_> *cough*

Can Shock stop a squad from using it's "may always make a ___ Charge Reaction" ability?

Hamster Berserker's charge causes shock. Do they can charge Otter Asigarus(with guns) and provided they win the HM test stop the Asigarus from counterfireing?

I suspect not, because the activation for the counterfire happens after the shock test. The hamster's ability says shock test have to be made before the charge reaction. Therefore the shock test maybe take away their activation, but they can still activate trough their always coutnerfire ability.

On the other hand if the shock triggers in the asigaru's counterfire activation it may stop the activation before the counterfire.

So how is it works?

If a model has a means to make a 'Free Activation', they can use it after being Shocked.

I'd suggest to add the text of shock that it has no effect if the target squad has been already activated.

Or add it to an FAQ.

Hrm... I'm wondering if it'd be wise to try and get in some 2nd Ed games at AdeptiCon...

It'd be doable, I'd just have to make some 2nd Ed Stat cards for whatever we're playing with.

Well, I was going to try and figure out a way to put the rules pdf on my Kindle to throw into my case, but I was thinking if we could just make a quick, simple pdf of a hero of like level 2 or 3, and then print the stat blocks for a few of the units, it'd be a way to gain some level of play testing feedback without "much" work.

Second (first) Question: This is slightly related, but how many badges come with the OTL booth at GenCon?

 Alfndrate wrote:

Second (first) Question: This is slightly related, but how many badges come with the OTL booth at GenCon?

4 Freebies, but I can get extras.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Second (first) Question: This is slightly related, but how many badges come with the OTL booth at GenCon?

4 Freebies, but I can get extras.

Do vendor badges cost more or less than a regular attendee badge? If they cost roughly the same and we need 2 more badges, could we not go looking into booking time at the Playtest Hall? It's 150 bucks and comes with 2 GM badges. The 2 people with those badges wouldn't be able to get into the exhibitor's hall early, but it would give us a chance to try and get some (read: potentially a lot) of playtesting feedback on 2nd ed.

They're cheaper.

If someone wants to run Brushfire events at Gencon in an area other then the exhibtor hall, they are welcome to. But I'm not going to deal with it.

I also don't think Gencon presents the best location for playtesting 2nd Edition.

 Cyporiean wrote:
They're cheaper.

If someone wants to run Brushfire events at Gencon in an area other then the exhibtor hall, they are welcome to. But I'm not going to deal with it.

I also don't think Gencon presents the best location for playtesting 2nd Edition.

I mean wargame playtesting seems like it would have to be something done more in a game store or a home location, but I figured if they were similar in price, it'd definitely be something to look into as playtest feedback with actual people that don't know the game could be extremely valuable. But if vendor badges are cheaper, feth that!

Also as to GenCon events, perhaps we can talk later... I know it costs money to run events, but if we have booth space to run demos, it won't be as big of an issue as it was in 2012.

Its not that is costs us money (that'd be less of an issue), its that it costs the players money: $4min.

I don't like charging people to try out a game.

We've got a 20'x10' booth, so lots of room over last year's 5'x5' subbooth..

A bare-bones version of the rulebook would be nice until the release. As in it's current form, it's quite inefficent to print out with many empty pages and that brown frame. I like the frame but to print it before every game or so...

Yeah... I should buy a better phone.

I have managed to play two rounds of V2 Brushfire today. Here comes the feedback!

The book looks amazing. I have printed it before the game and even in black and white, it looks really nice. The art is great. The style is incosistent tough.

The cards where missed. Are you guys planning to release the cards in PDF format?

In the secound match we have realized that horns are only ment to be used once per mach. I'd suggest to make this clearer in the book. It is says "horns can only be used once", but until that point everything says "once per turn", so I'd suggest to reword that line to mention "horns can be olny used once during a game".

The game was so much better after this got revealed.

There was two things the book doesn't seems to answer tough. What happens if models in a squad have different movement values and what if they have different charge ranges?

I believe the squad can move with the shortest move speed, but I can only guess the charge one. I think the book mentions that if one model can make the charge then all can, but I don't see this clearly from that.

Also we have run into the situatuon once: when squads clash in close combat and all defending models in the first line are slain but the attacker still has attacks left and the defender choose to counterstrike. Now there is a gap between the two squads and nobody can attack because there is no B2B left.

Funniest moment: My opponent choose to run trought his devon brigardiers on my hyperion fire and slained several rat raiders and my warlord before they turned into ash.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I have managed to play two rounds of V2 Brushfire today. Here comes the feedback!

The book looks amazing. I have printed it before the game and even in black and white, it looks really nice. The art is great. The style is incosistent tough.

Thanks. Things will begin to get more consistent from here on out, as Heath will be doing pretty much all of the art from now on.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

The cards where missed. Are you guys planning to release the cards in PDF format?

Yes, I just haven't gotten to updating them yet. I hope to have them ready in a few weeks, most likely I'll do one faction at a time.. Ribenguo, Vandalands, and Aquitar getting priority.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
In the secound match we have realized that horns are only ment to be used once per mach. I'd suggest to make this clearer in the book. It is says "horns can only be used once", but until that point everything says "once per turn", so I'd suggest to reword that line to mention "horns can be olny used once during a game".

We'll get that clarified.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

There was two things the book doesn't seems to answer tough. What happens if models in a squad have different movement values and what if they have different charge ranges?

Each model will continue to use its own speed/charge range, but will have to keep within Cohesion with its Squad Mates. We'll add a paragraph or three talking about different stats in a squad.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Also we have run into the situatuon once: when squads clash in close combat and all defending models in the first line are slain but the attacker still has attacks left and the defender choose to counterstrike. Now there is a gap between the two squads and nobody can attack because there is no B2B left.

This can sometimes happen, just means the next turn both squads have an equal opportunity to charge depending on who gets initiative.

One more thing...

The hyperion fire uses a 3 inch template to calculate hits and an 50mm token to lock off an area. Again, the the clash of the measuring systems.

Also the book needs a few template-attack examples.

The grenade is hard to get. I know it works as a shot, but it's called grenade. It maybe comes from those other games but grenades supposed to be template attacks, so it's a little headscratching. I'd suggest to rename it Bundlerbuss Pistol or Dragon Pistol or something gun like. It would be much more straightforward.

The smoke bomb should mention that it can be used multiple times. Everything else is one-shot around it. I know it is a "Bundle of Smoke Bombs", but still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Also we have run into the situatuon once: when squads clash in close combat and all defending models in the first line are slain but the attacker still has attacks left and the defender choose to counterstrike. Now there is a gap between the two squads and nobody can attack because there is no B2B left.

This can sometimes happen, just means the next turn both squads have an equal opportunity to charge depending on who gets initiative.

In this situation, the defender still looses it's activation?

 WhiteRoo wrote:

The hyperion fire uses a 3 inch template to calculate hits and an 50mm token to lock off an area. Again, the the clash of the metric systems.

We'll see about clarifiy this, a few games end up using Small or Large for denoting template size: Small being 3", and Large being 5".

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Also the book needs a few template-attack examples.

Should be do able.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The grenade is hard to get. I know it works as a shot, but it's called grenade. It maybe comes from those other games but grenades supposed to be template attacks, so it's a little headscratching. I'd suggest to rename it Bundlerbuss Pistol or Dragon Pistol or something gun like. It would be much more straightforward.

A number of games don't consider Grenades to be Templates, since the blast is pretty small.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

The smoke bomb should mention that it can be used multiple times. Everything else is one-shot around it. I know it is a "Bundle of Smoke Bombs", but still.

I'll reword it for clarity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WhiteRoo wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Also we have run into the situatuon once: when squads clash in close combat and all defending models in the first line are slain but the attacker still has attacks left and the defender choose to counterstrike. Now there is a gap between the two squads and nobody can attack because there is no B2B left.

This can sometimes happen, just means the next turn both squads have an equal opportunity to charge depending on who gets initiative.

In this situation, the defender still looses it's activation?

If you choose to activate them to make the charge reaction, they are activated.

If part of your squad is not going to be affected by the charge, you might want to consider not activating them as part of the charge reaction.

I think the problem is with the grenade that it is placed out of context. If it would be so much clearer around the ranged weapons. Also the Aquatar Badger Grenadier has it, so it is listed in a wierd place. Also there is two template weapons listed after it.

Is smoke bombs and/or hyperian fire deviates? Smoke bombs aren't aimed at anything particular -except the ground of course - so they will not hit enemy units, therefore deviate... except that's seems wrong.

Also Hyperian Fire is really useful just to lock down a particular route. will it deviate if I just want to drop it? Or can I just drop it down whitout aiming it at someone?

There are also the Climbing Claws and Signal Lamp in that section, neither of which are weapons or templates.

The Jar of Hyperian Fire and Bundle of Smoke Bombs do not Deviate, this will be noted.

Ranged weapons have range listed which is a big giveaway about their shot-like nature. The grenade doesn't have this. I'd suggest to add "the grenade is a range weapon that can be only used for counterfire" or X" Range, for counterfite only.

Then the hyperian fire and the smoke bomb can be aimed at nothing particular?

I had a question earlyer somewhere about if template attacks have to be initially aimed at valid targets where I got the answer that they have to.

I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'd just like to highlight this contradiction. So some template attacks have to have targets and some don't?

First off I’d like to apologize in advance. I may come off overly critical or harsh and I don’t want anyone to take it the wrong way. Also, I will openly admit that I have not played any games of Brushfire in either iteration so my observations are all theory, which you may take or leave. Finally please don’t be offended if I question the rational/purpose behind some rules or design decisions, for I am just trying to get an idea of the process that went into putting Brushfire together. I just want to see you guys put out a great game.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Zabar has more costly troops that are better equiped and cannot amass them as well as other factions..

I'm going to call shenanigans on this.

The Shaka War-Hogs have similar base equipment to the Axony Kernish Terriers who cost only 5 food.

But...

The Soqotran Corsairs are the ones that really confuse me. They are extremely similar to the 3 choice rules option type 5 food base troops appearing in numerous armies including Weasel Fusiliers, Rat Raiders, Mouse Conscripts, Chugokuan Color Guard, and Otter Ashigaru, yet the Soqotran Corsairs are the only one that costs any Lumber or Gold.


I've been trying to gather my thoughts in my free time for about a week and it looks like the discussion came up, so...

My rant today will be on Zabar, specifically on building a Zabaran army. So now it’s time for a story.

One day, not long ago, a handsome young man named Galen (that’s me) was wandering through the On the Lamb Games website, and, not finding any new Endless WIPs to drool over, found himself browsing through the Brushfire models in the online store. He saw the Hyena Witch Doctor figure and said “That model looks like one of my D&D characters, if I played Brushfire perhaps I would have to play Zabar. Shortly thereafter Galen ran into another model he liked, the veiled assassins. Galen was happy to find veiled assassins in the Mercs list and planned to put them together in an army one day.
Skip ahead a few months. Galen had the 2nd Edition PDF and decided to build a Zabar force like he had envisioned. After throwing in a good portion of Shaka War-Hogs (qty:12) and Hyena Witch Doctors (qty:8), Galen then took some Veiled Assassins (Qty:8). Using Brushfire 2nd ed. and the current Brushfire Mercs pdf this force came to 100/100/148, so naturally he looked for options to spend the rest of his food and lumber. After a quick glance it was apparent that there were NO options for spending food without spending gold in the Zabar list. He could spend some lumber on a banner, horn, and ladders, but exemplars, siege weapons, etc were out of reach without dropping some troops.

Zabaran List:

10X Shakka war-hog

8X Hyena witch doctor

8X Veiled Assassin (Merc)

cost: 100/100/148
28 Figures

It seemed odd to Galen that he could not spend all his food and so he tried to build a different army as a point of reference, making sure to include some Veiled Assassins.

Below is what he came up with -Note: at this point I am not factoring in Heroes unless they affect unit points costs

Aquitar force:

5X Badger-at-claw
Badger in the Iron Claws

9X Weasel Fusiliers
Badger Grenadier

5X Mongoose Legionaire
Aquicois Bazaine

10X Veiled Assassins (Merc)

This List comes to 150/90/150 before any Horns/Banners. It included 29 basic troopers, but also had room for 3 exemplars. On paper it seems better and more interesting than the Zabar list.


Lets take a closer look as Zabar list building. Here is the breakdown of the Zabaran army list focusing mostly on the units.

Zabar:
3- Named exemplars
1- Non-unique exemplar
1- Heavy cav 5/5/5
1- Infantry 5/5/5
1- Infantry 10/5/5
1-Horde 5/5/5

You will notice only ONE unit option in the Zabaran list that takes more food than lumber/gold to purchase. Zabar is also the only faction that doesn’t have at least one unit that costs only food. In fact, if I counted correctly, every other faction has at least two units that cost only food (counting mammaluke for Scyzantium.) This means that if the Zabaran player wants to use all of his/her food and desires unit upgrades, exemplars, siege weapons, mercs, or even banners then they MUST purchase the 10/5/5 infantry in sufficient numbers to compensate. If I want to upgrade my Shaka War-Hogs to have targes or to include the exemplar Oruc & Hizir I must either build my list without spending all my food or purchase enough Veldt Hounds to free up enough lumber/gold to make the upgrade. This makes for very derivative lists and quickly limits a players options in list building.

At this point I don’t necessarily want to say Zabar is weak or suffering competitively from this issue, though I am wary of the possibility, but I do think that the current Zabaran list is boring to build and lacks the options to make it fun to play long term.

Perhaps there was an intent to limit Zabar's access to siege equipment and fortifications, but I don't think it works well as written. Perhaps bringing unit costs down to 5/2/2 or making one unit cost food and lumber, while another only costs food and gold would still force Zabar players to make the hard choices without completely hamstringing them. Perhaps Zabar just needs some added specialist or elite units to help round out their options. One other option is to make Zabar exemplars cost food/lumber/gold in equal measure to balance out with the units. Making that 0/30/30 priced exemplar cost 20/20/20 instead would make me feel better about taking it in the current Zabar list.

I could keep rambling but I'll see what people have to say first.

Adjusting some Resource Costs on Zabar:
Unit - F/L/G
Hyenas - 5/0/0
Shaka - 5/5/0
Corsair - 5/0/5
Veldt - 10/0/0

Galen wrote:At this point I don’t necessarily want to say Zabar is weak or suffering competitively from this issue, though I am wary of the possibility,

Don't tell RiTides that... his Hamsters were massacred by the Shaka

Thanks for the feedback you two!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'd just like to highlight this contradiction. So some template attacks have to have targets and some don't?

The biggest thing to remember is when a general rule meets a specific rule, the specific rule is the one you use. So, if the general rule says, "template attacks must hit a target, or else they deviate" (or something to that extent), then all templates must hit a target. Then when you get down to specific template attacks like Jars of Hyperian Fire, or Smoke Bombs, if it says, "theses don't deviate" then in that instance you would use that specific rule . I believe we can certainly clarify this, but just a friendly reminder about some wargame stuff, since you've stated in the past that you're new to wargames

 Alfndrate wrote:

Galen wrote:At this point I don’t necessarily want to say Zabar is weak or suffering competitively from this issue, though I am wary of the possibility,

Don't tell RiTides that... his Hamsters were massacred by the Shaka

The shaka-wave build with hogs only costing 5 food is pretty scary good. A bad match-up for hamsters since the heavy cav rules mean the shakas are always going to get the charge, barring a trebuchet launched hamster ball or the hedgeknight ability (which is why I take those, to try to get the charge with hamsters). Not sure if the heavy cav rules have remained the same in 2nd edition but they were downright scary...

My original question about template attack aiming was if you can aim it to nothing. Maybe you want it to deviate on the off-chamce that it will go further forward hitting someone who is out of the base range.

Or you want to hit Tatamata of Ribenguo with his Gajin being active. Since template attacks affect all models under them no matter being friendly or not, aiming a template to Tatamata will count as a hit(no deviation). The attacker doesn't attacks Tatamata directly - well he/she does it on purpose of course - but it's a template attack, you doesn't have to aim it at Tatamata, just where he is.

It looks like to me that you can smash the hiperion fire where Tatamata is, and it doesn't going to deviate. Also, cannons and Trebuches can be aimed at him.

What happens if some unit starts it's activation on the hyperion fire? I guess it has to roll Vy check to see if it can stop the flames, but it stands in fire...

Can you stack fire for more off-turn damage? Like having two Vandalands Warlord on Sabotage and flame up the same squad twice? I think they will have to roll Vy against both, but they will only have to roll Vy once when they going to activate. How this works with poison?