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Thermite can be an item for ruining assault weaponry during the movement phase or something.

If you don't want to take a cannon/chaingun/whatever, you can pop a thermite grenade to it's barrel watch the thing melt while massacring the crew.

Or to ruin a MAV/Gunship really fast from melee distance.

And make a railroad spike crossbow/gun for the FSV.

Why is "Extended Reach" is on the cards of units that are using Pike? Also, having a Pike Reach and Extended Reach is wierd, as extended reach is no longer extends Reach. Actually the text is written in a way to be, but that is not necessary I think.

Because 'Extended Reach' is only a part of the weapon profile for Pikes, and like other weapon specific special rules it goes on the card.

Reach allows you to make an attack through a model of the same base size or smaller.
Extended Reach extends Reach to allow you to make an attack through a model of a base size 10mm Larger then you.

 Cyporiean wrote:

Extended Reach extends Reach to allow you to make an attack through a model of a base size 10mm Larger then you.

Exactly. You should add "...up to" to that sentence, and the Pike would be able to drop one keyword.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some questions/thoughs from today's match:

These are the things I don't know if the current book answers or not, and other thoughts I had about the game. So I write these as, "The book should mention this" should be added wher it's appropriate.

Flight: Can a unit with flight "land" on an assault terrain?

Flee and Shoot: Can a squad flee and shoot if they bump into something while fleeing? They can flee, until the bump, but they can soot back, if they can't move the full distance?

Sky Marines: It seems to me that Sky Marines are the new best of Wandaland units. For 10 food only you get a unit with really good stats, dual pistols, medium armor, 4 hp, I keep forgetting that they are light cavalry, and elite. Because they only cost food, you can fatherland them really well. These guys are too good to be not busted maybe... Considering that Vandaland is supposaed to be melee focused.

Tamatama's name has a typo in his card.

The Hamster Berserker card says it only has one axe.

My friend pointed out that nothing says in the book that you cannot form chain-squads... I mean you can activate the Warlord, and Dishonor Guards with him, and since those are Rat Raiders, any other type of Rat Raiders as well. I know you can't because I ask this here before, but if you think about it, activating the Warlord with Rat Raiders is against the basic rules. The Rat Raider's Dishonor Guard overrides that and this is where it get's complicated.

When you activate a squad while it is in melee and you want to stay and fight, you can move your units around to make someone stand in the place of a fallen unit, so you can have more attacks. These are what moves exactly? They are not charges, as the squad cannot charge because other units of the squad are in melee, you can do this in the movement phase maybe, but these are not movement phase moves because that would invoke reactions from the enemy... Point is I cannot find any description about these movements if there is any.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Flight: Can a unit with flight "land" on an assault terrain?

I believe the answer is Yes, but I'd have to doublecheck with Matt.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Flee and Shoot: Can a squad flee and shoot if they bump into something while fleeing? They can flee, until the bump, but they can soot back, if they can't move the full distance?

We will likely rephrase the Birdmen of the Plains/Marchlands ability so that it is 'Flee and then Counterfire', in which case you are moving first and then firing. So if you 'Bump' into an Enemy Unit while doing so you would not be able to fire.. so you should consider stopping before you do that.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Sky Marines: It seems to me that Sky Marines are the new best of Vandaland units. For 10 food only you get a unit with really good stats, dual pistols, medium armor, 4 hp, I keep forgetting that they are light cavalry, and elite. Because they only cost food, you can fatherland them really well. These guys are too good to be not busted maybe... Considering that Vandaland is supposaed to be melee focused.

They are pretty awesome.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Tamatama's name has a typo in his card.

The Hamster Berserker card says it only has one axe.

Will get that fixed.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

My friend pointed out that nothing says in the book that you cannot form chain-squads... I mean you can activate the Warlord, and Dishonor Guards with him, and since those are Rat Raiders, any other type of Rat Raiders as well. I know you can't because I ask this here before, but if you think about it, activating the Warlord with Rat Raiders is against the basic rules. The Rat Raider's Dishonor Guard overrides that and this is where it get's complicated.

I'll see about having this clarified somewhere, but it might just be part of an FAQ.

You have Dishonor Guard Rat Raiders, Ordenstaat Rat Raiders, and a Warlord. The Warlord may activate with the Dishonor Guard, but not may not activate with the Ordenstaats. The Ordenstaat may activate with the Dishonor Guard, but not with the Warlord. The Dishonor Guard may activate with Either the Ordenstaat or the Warlord, but not both due to the other unit's restrictions.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

When you activate a squad while it is in melee and you want to stay and fight, you can move your units around to make someone stand in the place of a fallen unit, so you can have more attacks. These are what moves exactly? They are not charges, as the squad cannot charge because other units of the squad are in melee, you can do this in the movement phase maybe, but these are not movement phase moves because that would invoke reactions from the enemy... Point is I cannot find any description about these movements if there is any.

'Consolidation' is what its called in Warhammer 40k, Brushfire does not have this rule. If you want to move up you would have to do it during your movement phase, there is no minimum charge distance.

Flying units can 'land' on assault terrain in the same manner anyone else can, by assaulting it. They need to make room for themselves or fall back to a b2b position. As flight units they take no damage for failing to assault.


I'm not understanding why Flee and Shoot would not allow a counterfire if you 'bump' When you flee into other models, you stop short. You would then make ranged attacks against the squad you fled from. The current wording essentially states that both occur at once. Resolve the Counterfire and then make the Flee movement. This is how its intended to be resolved, we'll clarify that.

Also, when you flee, you walk your full speed value, not 'up to'. Only other objects make you stop short.


For movement, it should be pointed out that you only trigger the reactions from the enemy if you move [i]out[i] of B2B. The models in B2B may move, i call it 'rolling', around the enemy they are in B2B with. The other members of the squad that are not in B2B can move freely in the Movement Phase and then attack in the Melee Phase.

Other interesting thing was there where towers and low walls on the last map and we both decided to favor the low walls instead of the towers. (granted we thought that it gives 3 AR shield as the wall does)

We stick with the low walls because of it's hiding ability.

Before the playtesting ends, I would like to mention this:

I was comparing the Sky Marines to the Shrew Hussars for my Vandalands army, and it turns out the Sky Marines cost half of the Hussars and they are at least as powerful as them.

Movement: Both is Light Cavalry with the Hussars have 16 inch of Rush range while the Marines have 15 trough their ability. But the Hussars actually has to move on land, trough forests and walls and other things, while the Marines fly.

Ranged Combat: Both units uses dual pistols in range, but the Sky Marine's RS is one point higher.

Melee: The Hussars use sword and pistol in melee, and have an extra attack from their Kiwi Steed while the Marines only use dual pistols. But the Marine's MS is one point higher, not as these units wouldn't rush all the time anyway.

Survival: They both have the same amount of VY points with the Marines have better ES if they haven't rushed, and Medium Armor to begin with, while the Hussars only have light armor.

TS/HM: The Hussars have better TS, so much that they often have the highest TS in the army(second only to the Hedge Knight). Therefore they are good ambushers that the Marines not, however the Marines are Elite units, effectively making their HM score unnecessary.(Really, what is HM good for on a non-hero unit except for shock resistance?)

Skills: The Marines Assault Assistance Pack is incredibly useful while the Hussars Birdmen of Plains rarely sees any play. It keeps them from being charged at least.

Upgrades: The Hussars can be upgraded with Medium Armor. Marines come with medium armor and can be upgraded with rifles. A fully upgraded Marine costs as much as a basic Hussar.


I like the Hussars and I'd hate to see them turn obsolete.

Other questions I stumbled upon:

What kind of phase an Assault is? I suppose it replaces the melee phase, but the book only states that Assault happens at the beginning of the melee phase and it doesn't says it replaces it. Therefore models that make a successful assault(with melee attacks during that assault) can make their normal attacks after that.
If you think about it models that make a successful assault because there is enough room on the assault terrain can perform their normal attacks after the assault, so following this logic, models that make a successful assault by cutting free space for themselves, can also make their normal attacks. I'm aware that it doesn't supposed to work like this, but I'm trying point out the foggy parts in the rules.

What happens if the model is physically too big to fit on the wall even if the headcount would allow it?

Can you make a full rush to the base of an assault terrain and assault it? This would mean the model moves more than it's maximum movement by at least it's base size as it moves from the base of the Assault Terrain to the top of it.

As Charge is part of the Melee Phase and you assault at the beginning of it, can you assault and then charge a model on the top of the Assault Terrain Piece?

Does a Sky Marine gets the 1 DE damage if it fails an assault? It only has flight in the Movement Phase after all, but it does have a jetpack.

And wallrunner Kiwis...
I can see that a Valkyr may assault an Assault Terrain, but how does a Kiwi does it?

I haven't been able to convince any friends to play a game of Brushfire, but I have put some army lists together and pushed proxies around the table. In the process I came up with two questions/comments.

I'm not 100% sure I understand the siege weapon rules. Does each seige weapon have to activate separately, as its own squad? The way I am reading the rules I could not, for example, have a squad of 5 fusiliers activate together with two manning a ballista and the other three firing rifles, because the squad is operating the siege weapon instead of taking their normal phases. I could have two activate to operate the ballista and then activate the other three as a different squad to move and fire as normal. Effectively models in base with a siege weapon activate as a separate squad from any like units nearby. Is this correct?


Secondly,
I am having a hard time justifying putting Soqotran Corsairs in any of my Zabar lists. I don't feel like I'm getting enough for what I'm paying in resources. I tried adding a squad to my list and I always feel I would be happier with a combination of other Zabar units and Mercs. A 15 man Corsair squad costs 75F/ 0L/ 75G, while for less food and gold, 60F/ 60G, I could get 6 Veldt Hounds, and 10 Veiled Assassins. The veldt hounds being more accurate shooting with excellent special rules.

The stat line and base equipment for the Corsairs is very close to 5F models in other factions such as Veiled Assassins, Chugoku Color Guard, Otter Ashigaru, Rat Raiders, etc. The Corsair's cost also makes the Cannoneers special rule a bit of a disappointment. I can have one Corsair man a ballista, costing me 5F / 0 / 5G or just take one Witch Doctor and one Veiled Assassin for 5F / 0 / 6G, a savings of a whole 1G to operate the ballista. Cannons fair even worse in comparison. Two Corsairs cost 10F/ 0/ 10G to man a cannon, where as I can have three hyenas man it for 15F/ 0/ 0, or two Hyenas and a Veiled Assassin for 10G/ 0/ 6G which actually saves me 4G.


I can think of three reasons why they may be more expensive than their resource cost seems to justify:

1. The options they bring to the table are not something Zabar is supposed to have easy access to and therefore a premium has been put on the Corsairs. Being in Zabar does give them pathfinder which could be part of a Zabar price consideration. If this is the case I understand, even if I find it a bit unfortunate.

2. The combination of a ranged build, a close combat build, the horde rules, and pathfinder combines to make something more than the sum of its parts. I could easily fail to understand the importance of certain rules interactions

3. The buccaneer option (2 pistols) could be just that good. This is the only rules/equipment option the Corsairs possess that is not closely mirrored by another factions 5F basic troop. The Civitan Marines can get a similar rule but are elite and cost more food.

If the Corsair's current cost is not justified I would suggest not changing their resource cost, but instead tweaking the unit's rules slightly. Possible changes I thought might be appropriate include giving them one pistol as standard equipment, and/or increasing a few stats, like +1 RS, +1 ES, +1 TS/HM

Just dropping in briefly to say we are still driving back from Gen Con. We have a few more hours of this followed by unloading of the van before we will be able to fully digest the last couple of posts/provide answers.

Keep up the feedback

I can't wait to see photos and hear stories from Gen Con, but no one is trying to rush you Have a safe trip home.

On the siege weapon question, I think each siege weaopn must activate as its own squad, meaning that I couldn't activate 2 ballistas together as one squad. Is that how the rule works?

 Galen wrote:
I can't wait to see photos and hear stories from Gen Con, but no one is trying to rush you Have a safe trip home.

On the siege weapon question, I think each siege weaopn must activate as its own squad, meaning that I couldn't activate 2 ballistas together as one squad. Is that how the rule works?

Basically (cue Misk correcting me ).

You activate a number of models that it takes to man the siege engine, those models go through their turn with the penalties/restrictions induced by using the Siege Engine. Instead of firing their normal weapon, they fire the siege engine.

We're still winding down from Gencon, so I'll just quickly respond to these last few posts.

@Whiteroo
We'll see about adjusting the Hussars and the Sky Marines. There are really two issues there, balance and identity. Simply changing the point costs, or the like would not give the two units distinct identities, theyre still both the fast short range shooty units for the Vandals. Currently, I am leaning toward giving the Hussars a bonus to their AP, giving the Kiwi attack AP2, turning them into shoot/charge units, instead of simply shoot/harrass units. The exact solution has not been set in stone though.

Assault is taken in place of the Melee Phase, I'll get that clarified.

For the physically too big, we're really talking Loxodon and any other 60mm+ sized models, for these, we will say they cannot assault, or in the case of loxodon, can simply attack models on the top of assault terrain as if they were in b2b. (Shingeki no Kyojin/Attack on Titan style)

Yes, models can rush and assault. As you cannot charge terrain, consider this 'free movement' is just replacing the charge movement. Also, Charge is not part of the melee phase in 2nd Ed, it would take place before the Melee Phase, and as it would not bring you into b2b with an enemy, it is essentially skipped.

We'll see about tweaking the Sky Marine. the AAP was named for the RPG setting, not for 2nd Ed, and was not considered when naming the Assault mechanic. The idea for those is that they have crummy jetpacks. Like made of a metal plate/backpack with one shot rockets strapped to them. Something to help them control their jump from the airships to the ground. This is of course not saying they would not ignore the damage.

On a unit by unit basis, we'll go through and declare if a unit can Assault or not. Kiwis and Junglefowl should not be wallrunning! Thanks, Now all I can think of is the Spider-Mobile.

@Galen
On the siege question: First Line, Second Paragraph Operating Siege Weapons: "When a Squad activates in B2B with a Siege Weapon, they may choose to operate it instead of following their normal phases." One could activate additional models in B2B with a Siege Weapon, but they would be wasting their activation. Save those models and activate them separately.

You are not intended to operate more than one siege weapon at a time, so I'll get a notation of that in the siege rules.

Taking mercs can definitely send your list building for a loop, but here are some possible reasons to take Corsairs over say, Veldt hounds.

At 5/5, Cannoneer Corsairs are a little more flexible, you can get more of them in the army than veldt hounds, and with the rifling special rule, both are relying upon those rerolls to really get their licks in, and with 15 for 75FD, vs, 7 for 70FD, you're getting more than twice the attacks in around the same points.

As cannoneers, they also allow you to get more siege on the table, without wasting more models operating it. Though not thematic, one corsair per ballista is a cheap way to put siege on the table, or a lvl 1 Lioness and a Corsair with every cannon also keeps the cost down.

If the Corsairs are given a pistol, their Swashbuckler option loses part of its impact. A Speed increase could be in the cards for them, as small/light pirates, they could earn that boost.

Just like the Hussar/Sky Marine discussion, we'll see about giving them a better identity.

 miskatonicalum wrote:


@Galen
On the siege question: First Line, Second Paragraph Operating Siege Weapons: "When a Squad activates in B2B with a Siege Weapon, they may choose to operate it instead of following their normal phases." One could activate additional models in B2B with a Siege Weapon, but they would be wasting their activation. Save those models and activate them separately.

You are not intended to operate more than one siege weapon at a time, so I'll get a notation of that in the siege rules.

Good. This is how I was reading the rules. I just thought it was best to double check and confirm my assessment. I like the idea of bringing a lioness or possibly a cheetah tracker to up the accuracy on siege weapons.

Second Edition's rules are now finalized, thank you for your assistance. We've just sent out the link to redeem a copy of Journey to the East to everyone who has purchased the initial playtest pdf. If you do not get the e-mail within 48hrs you most likely have your WargameVault settings set to not receive special discounts.

Second Edition's Cards will become available in about 2 weeks.

I had a quick look to the rules and I like the changes so far.

Isn't the shotgun is a little bit too powerful? (15", DE: 3, AP: 1, Pistoleer) Especially compared to the dual pistols they used. +2 DE per turn. (if you perform ranged-charge-melee in a turn)

I mean on the Sky Marine it's basically a +1 AP dual-strike Poleax. With the new Assault Assistance Pack, it's 3 DE, 1AP twice a turn per marine. I can't wait to try it out but even the Aquitar Trapper's Hand Mortar is not this powerful.

Also, the definition of Pistoleer should mention that you are supposed to roll MS when using that weapon as a melee weapon. If that is still true. How does that works by the way? Are they doing pistol-whip attacks?

If you've never been hit with the butt of a shotgun/rifle, I don't suggest you make a habit of it, and just assume it hurts . (Yes they're doing a pistol-whip like attack)

 Alfndrate wrote:
If you've never been hit with the butt of a shotgun/rifle, I don't suggest you make a habit of it, and just assume it hurts . (Yes they're doing a pistol-whip like attack)

But maybe it doesn't hurt like a Poleax strike. Unless these shotguns have attached poleaxes under the barrel or something.

Actually, do that.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
If you've never been hit with the butt of a shotgun/rifle, I don't suggest you make a habit of it, and just assume it hurts . (Yes they're doing a pistol-whip like attack)

But maybe it doesn't hurt like a Poleax strike. Unless these shotguns have attached poleaxes under the barrel or something.

Actually, do that.

The Fusiliers already have an axe bit they can add to their crossbows and rifles

And the pistol isn't being "fired" in the melee phase, it's just being used and the easiest description is a pistol whip.

The cost of a Sky Marine is 10/10/10 in the book and 10/0/0 in it's card.

For 10/10/10 I'd say it's okay to them have that hand cannon named shotgun, but deploying that for 10/0/0 would be a little bit broken I think.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The cost of a Sky Marine is 10/10/10 in the book and 10/0/0 in it's card.

For 10/10/10 I'd say it's okay to them have that hand cannon named shotgun, but deploying that for 10/0/0 would be a little bit broken I think.

That's a typo Thanks for pointing it out!

Aye, the book is correct, they are 10/10/10. I'll update the Skymarine card shortly.

Well, playtesting has ended for 2nd edition if you notice any glaring issues or omissions that literally break the game, let us know. As for suggestions on tweaks, we're always willing to listen, but things might not be changed as quickly or at all, unless it's a major issue.

Any time a new revision of the rules goes out on wargames vault, users are notified of the update and a download link.

I've just came across this while planning a city-based map.

There are no rules to follow when you face general obstacles like climbing to a first floor balcony, jump from rooftop to rooftop, having a general height advantage while shooting, climbing up or down on a piece of terrain that is not a wall, breaking down doors, melee fighting when one side stands on a higher ground and so on.

Also there are no options to push models around.

In general, I'll try to houserule these as they come up based on what the book has already.

Its difficult to cover every dynamic action players might think of, but here would be my suggestion if you're doing more Mordheim style fights:

Climbing Up or down would be a 1" reduction in movement if you're going up a flight of stairs or other reasonable climb. If you're leaping from the ground floor to a balcony, your base speed (you could still rush to move further)

Jumping from rooftop to rooftop - 1" reduction in movement, can only be made if the distance is less than the model's Speed value.

Hills represent any 'general height advantage' if you're on a roof, give the same bonus/effects one would get from standing on a hill.

Climbing down objects that only gave a 1" reduction in movement going up give no restriction.

Climbing down objects that are more leaping to balconies, (use up base speed) would require the same going down.

Breaking down doors - here I have no particular thought, maybe give the door a VY value, but only allow melee or damage that affects fortifications damage it. Arrows and bullets are not going to take down a door in any quick fashion.

Melee fighting on hills - no effectual difference. Mostly because i hate Star Wars Episode 3.

All Pushing effects were removed because they were excessively complex and frustrating, aka, not fun to deal with.

When I design muti-level buildings I try to mark ladder/stairs points that models use to move from one area to another. For now I've just been house ruling that it's 1" to go up to the next floor.

I also assumed that you could jump from one level to the next, with out a ladder point of some sort.

I just got the latest Brushfire books from Wagames Valut and started to read the basics again. On page six the card example picture is messed up.

The Axony Bull Regular's card doesn't says that it has a Rifle.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The Axony Bull Regular's card doesn't says that it has a Rifle.

Was fixed with the second printing of the card.

I have just downloaded the latest from Wargame Valut and I found it in that.