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 Cheesecat wrote:
Capital punishment is gak it's more expensive than being sentenced to life in prison, has little to no effect on deterring crime, innocent people are sometimes killed because of it, it's barbaric and you're potentially getting rid of a person who if rehabilitated properly might have become a law-abiding contributing member of society.

It ends up being more expensive because of the many legal appeals, clemency appeals etc. that take place before the execution. Also many of those sentenced to death would be serving life without parole in the alternative, so I don't see how they can be a "law-abiding contributing member of society".

Rehabilitation is a fantasy.

You can't explain that to some people.

Yet many countries do do it right, Hmm.

Out of sheer morbid curiosity I'd like to see you attempt to support that claim.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Rehabilitation is a fantasy.

And i'd imagine the DC for a Sanity check is pretty high after what these women went through.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Rehabilitation is a fantasy.

That's an awfully broad stroke KK...

I'm sure you mean Rehab for those who commit heinous crimes is a fantasy and you're not talking about things like white-collar crimes. Right?

 Monster Rain wrote:
Out of sheer morbid curiosity I'd like to see you attempt to support that claim.

The fact that america has so bad a prison policy that many people who do come in just get trained by criminals for more crime. Like it or not, We cant lock someone up for life or kill them for stolen good. You have to rehabilitate them or they will come back.
Norway does it pretty well
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Out of sheer morbid curiosity I'd like to see you attempt to support that claim.

The fact that america has so bad a prison policy that many people who do come in just get trained by criminals for more crime. Like it or not, We cant lock someone up for life or kill them for stolen good. You have to rehabilitate them or they will come back.
Norway does it pretty well
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

I don't suppose the fact that there is an application process to go to that prison has any bearing on the numbers stated in that article.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Norway does it pretty well
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

Ignoring the biases of the publication you quoted you might like to note the different social, political, legal and cultural landscape of Norway.

The Guardian's position on US prisons, the death penalty and life on parole can be summed up as follows;
States that execute people, a process that takes years after jumping through every legal loophole, are cruel and barbaric and its far too costly.
&
States that imprison people for lengthy periods because they committed a crime (usually when someone else has lost their life) is far too expensive and a drain on society.

Not to mention that their opinion pieces are often littered with inconsistencies, incorrect or just downright misleading information that the community routinely calls them out on

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Rehabilitation is a fantasy.

Citation needed, although I should have been more specific in my initial post, rehab where possible not everyone can properly reintegrate into society.


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 Monster Rain wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Out of sheer morbid curiosity I'd like to see you attempt to support that claim.

The fact that america has so bad a prison policy that many people who do come in just get trained by criminals for more crime. Like it or not, We cant lock someone up for life or kill them for stolen good. You have to rehabilitate them or they will come back.
Norway does it pretty well
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

I don't suppose the fact that there is an application process to go to that prison has any bearing on the numbers stated in that article.

Yet, It still makes your earlier statement false.

Not even remotely, guy.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
Capital punishment is gak it's more expensive than being sentenced to life in prison, has little to no effect on deterring crime, innocent people are sometimes killed because of it, it's barbaric and you're potentially getting rid of a person who if rehabilitated properly might have become a law-abiding contributing member of society.

It ends up being more expensive because of the many legal appeals, clemency appeals etc. that take place before the execution. Also many of those sentenced to death would be serving life without parole in the alternative, so I don't see how they can be a "law-abiding contributing member of society".

I think capital punishment has to be expensive as you're sentencing someone to death so you want the best resources available. But the second part is true but still I would rather have people locked for life then have them executed only to find out later that they were innocent..


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 Monster Rain wrote:
Not even remotely, guy.

You agreed with KK that rehab is a fantasy yet there are many countries that have had some successes with rehab, therefore rehab isn't a fantasy.

These three males (I agree, and refuse to call them men) are disgusting and don't deserve the life they were given. They should not have been put on this earth, and in reality, need to be sent back off of it. For those 2 or 3 of you in the thread getting squeamish, grow up: nobody is talking about going around, senselessly killing people and reverting to cavemen times: we're talking about permanently getting rid of life-threatening creatures so that nobody else will chance suffering at their hands. Is there vengeance involved? Yes, nobody here will deny that. But the fact that you want to take a stand and look appalled at everyone looking out for their fellow man (or in this case, woman) by having these living pieces of garbage not removed...it's you guys who are disgusting. I won't name names-you each know who you are. Accept the fact that these guys deserve to visit the great beyond. I'm like Frazzled-I love to joke in my posts, but here, I'm not. These creatures need to go, and you guys need a spine.


I'm also not in favor of auto death penalties as RITides brought up-check out the West Memphis 3 case: three innocent guys, almost given the death penalty despite overwhelming proof of their innocence. Finally went free last year after 15+ years on death row. However, in this Ohio case there's overwhelming proof of guilt-these filthy mongrels don't deserve to continue living.

Violence begets more violence. You killing people for "Justice(I refuse to call it that because killing isn't justice) is just a disgusting. You are looking to see these men dead to satisfy your urge to see harm inflicted on them. Not justice, HARM. do they deserve it? In all likelyhood, yes they do. But you need to take a stand and say "No, I will not harm another person for my perverted sense of justice. I will be better then these men"


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 Alfndrate wrote:

Good news! The state saves on incarceration! The police have determined that Ariel Castro's brothers had nothing to do with this.

Interesting, Kinda shows what the mob mentality can do. Many people where advocating no trial and just shooting them.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
These three males (I agree, and refuse to call them men) are disgusting and don't deserve the life they were given. They should not have been put on this earth, and in reality, need to be sent back off of it. For those 2 or 3 of you in the thread getting squeamish, grow up: nobody is talking about going around, senselessly killing people and reverting to cavemen times: we're talking about permanently getting rid of life-threatening creatures so that nobody else will chance suffering at their hands. Is there vengeance involved? Yes, nobody here will deny that. But the fact that you want to take a stand and look appalled at everyone looking out for their fellow man (or in this case, woman) by having these living pieces of garbage not removed...it's you guys who are disgusting. I won't name names-you each know who you are. Accept the fact that these guys deserve to visit the great beyond. I'm like Frazzled-I love to joke in my posts, but here, I'm not. These creatures need to go, and you guys need a spine.


I'm also not in favor of auto death penalties as RITides brought up-check out the West Memphis 3 case: three innocent guys, almost given the death penalty despite overwhelming proof of their innocence. Finally went free last year after 15+ years on death row. However, in this Ohio case there's overwhelming proof of guilt-these filthy mongrels don't deserve to continue living.

Appeal to emotion.

Satisfy my urge to see harm? Best check your tone. I'd be happy to see nobody in life get hurt, but unfortunately men like these exist. It's not out of bloodthirstiness, it's out of pragmatism. Nowhere do I mention lighting them on fire, ripping them apart, feeding them to sharks, or anything else-just that they need to be removed. I don't care how they do it, but it's something that needs to be done. I hope that you'd feel differently if it was your sister they held in captivity for a decade. I direct you back to the final sentence of my first paragraph.

The second we rationalize killing people out of pragmatism is the second we stop seeing people as people and as animals.
These people may be scum. But we will start seeing ALL humans as animals if we go down this path.]
And I hate my sister.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The second we rationalize killing people out of pragmatism is the second we stop seeing people as people and as animals.
These people may be scum. But we will start seeing ALL humans as animals if we go down this path. Like the nazis.

And I hate my sister.

That's a slippery slope.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
These three males (I agree, and refuse to call them men) are disgusting and don't deserve the life they were given. They should not have been put on this earth, and in reality, need to be sent back off of it. For those 2 or 3 of you in the thread getting squeamish, grow up: nobody is talking about going around, senselessly killing people and reverting to cavemen times: we're talking about permanently getting rid of life-threatening creatures so that nobody else will chance suffering at their hands. Is there vengeance involved? Yes, nobody here will deny that. But the fact that you want to take a stand and look appalled at everyone looking out for their fellow man (or in this case, woman) by having these living pieces of garbage not removed...it's you guys who are disgusting. I won't name names-you each know who you are. Accept the fact that these guys deserve to visit the great beyond. I'm like Frazzled-I love to joke in my posts, but here, I'm not. These creatures need to go, and you guys need a spine.


I'm also not in favor of auto death penalties as RITides brought up-check out the West Memphis 3 case: three innocent guys, almost given the death penalty despite overwhelming proof of their innocence. Finally went free last year after 15+ years on death row. However, in this Ohio case there's overwhelming proof of guilt-these filthy mongrels don't deserve to continue living.

Overwhelming proof of their innocence was not presented at their original trial. Their original trial was a miscarriage of justice, and the fact that they weren't executed is what gave them time to prove their innocence.

I'm absolutely certain that many people felt equally strongly that "vengeance" was justified against them for being child killers, despite the truth being that they were innocent.

Many people believe that the death penalty is inherently unjust, in large part because there are many cases where guilt is not so clear, or only initially appears clear, and death is something you can't take back. I might like to see a given scumbag criminal dead, or might personally feel that vengeance is justified, as a society we've got an obligation to attempt to be better than our desire for vengeance.

Opining that people who disagree with the death penalty are spineless is pretty insulting, and I'd like to ask that my fellow Dakkanauts try to be a little more respectful and open-minded than that. If you can't argue your position and attempt to convince people that you're correct without insulting them, then you shouldn't be posting in OT.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The second we rationalize killing people out of pragmatism is the second we stop seeing people as people and as animals.
These people may be scum. But we will start seeing ALL humans as animals if we go down this path. Like the nazis.

And I hate my sister.

That's a slippery slope.

He wants to pretend he lives in a land of sunshine and sparkles.

And Hotsauce, even if you hate your sister, I hope you'd have the decency to be extremely enraged if something like this happened to her. If you didn't, then that's even more disgusting of you.

And I'm done-I'm not risking a ban over this.

I do, I would be pissed. But i would be more concerned with her well being to care about the scum.
Let me put it why i think the execution idea is wrong.
I think, that by use wanting to kill someone out of vengeance is a slippery slope. I do not think it comes out of pragmatism in the slightest, I think it comes from a primal urge to see harm inflicted on others for wrong doings. I do not think this is different from what the criminals did or do. Because it is from a "Justice" standpoint does not mean it is excusable. Lots of horrible horrible things have been done in the name of justice, war. The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
These three males (I agree, and refuse to call them men) are disgusting and don't deserve the life they were given. They should not have been put on this earth, and in reality, need to be sent back off of it. For those 2 or 3 of you in the thread getting squeamish, grow up: nobody is talking about going around, senselessly killing people and reverting to cavemen times: we're talking about permanently getting rid of life-threatening creatures so that nobody else will chance suffering at their hands. Is there vengeance involved? Yes, nobody here will deny that. But the fact that you want to take a stand and look appalled at everyone looking out for their fellow man (or in this case, woman) by having these living pieces of garbage not removed...it's you guys who are disgusting. I won't name names-you each know who you are. Accept the fact that these guys deserve to visit the great beyond. I'm like Frazzled-I love to joke in my posts, but here, I'm not. These creatures need to go, and you guys need a spine.


I'm also not in favor of auto death penalties as RITides brought up-check out the West Memphis 3 case: three innocent guys, almost given the death penalty despite overwhelming proof of their innocence. Finally went free last year after 15+ years on death row. However, in this Ohio case there's overwhelming proof of guilt-these filthy mongrels don't deserve to continue living.

Apparently there isn't. Overwhelming proof, that is, for at least two of the three.

Trial by media indeed.

 whembly wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Rehabilitation is a fantasy.

That's an awfully broad stroke KK...

I'm sure you mean Rehab for those who commit heinous crimes is a fantasy and you're not talking about things like white-collar crimes. Right?

I dunno have you seen your tax statements recently? I should have limited my statement to violent offenders/kidnappers. The truly fethed up individuals.

As to humans being animals, hotsauce we are animals. An extremely smart, ruthless animal that has dominated it's planet against all comers despite possessing no natural advantage except walking on two legs, thumbs and a larger then average brain. An animal all the same. So I have no problem with putting down a member of our species that has proven it cannot live healthily amongst us. Murderers, rapists, child molesters, the guy who's the subject of this thread. They deserve their day in court, maybe even a couple, with all the best investigative techniques, newest forensic technology and all the evidence that can be found for or against their innocence and to be tried by a jury of their peers. If it's then determined that they need to be "removed" then good. Make it quick, painless and efficient, death has proven to be 100% effective in preventing repeat offenders. If the family takes some small satisfaction in vengeance from the execution good for them, I wish them peace and solace as they continue on without what they've lost. It has no bearing to me, or the belief that certain crimes warrant the highest punishment we can give as a species that dies.

And I disagree, and animals with rational thought, We should not revert to old patterns.But there is not point, we are beating a dead pony, no one is going to convince the other.

Remember, Onil and Pedro Castro have been cleared of any charges in relation to this situation. The police have determined that they had no idea as to what their brother was doing. Granted they will probably still see some time behind bars because they had other warrants out for their arrest

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

I didn't. I just pointed out that it is the law of the land, and there are some states that allow execution by certain means. These means have been legally approved. If we are a country of laws, then we follow should follow the laws we created.

Otherwise, why bother with this whole society business? I would have to wear the loin cloth and wield a stone axe right with you.

I recall a self-professed Vampire that ran for office, and part of his platform was to condemn child molesters to death by impaling. Not sure why this thread reminded me of that.

I may, based on this conversation, write my congressman and ask if we can burn people at the stake in instances such as the ones being discussed in this thread. I'm sure it would pass the house of representatives.

For some reason I read that as "bum people at the stake".

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

I didn't. I just pointed out that it is the law of the land, and there are some states that allow execution by certain means. These means have been legally approved. If we are a country of laws, then we follow should follow the laws we created.

Otherwise, why bother with this whole society business? I would have to wear the loin cloth and wield a stone axe right with you.

I recall a self-professed Vampire that ran for office, and part of his platform was to condemn child molesters to death by impaling. Not sure why this thread reminded me of that.

I may, based on this conversation, write my congressman and ask if we can burn people at the stake in instances such as the ones being discussed in this thread. I'm sure it would pass the house of representatives.

For some reason I read that as "bum people at the stake".

Would fit in the with the vampire impaling thing.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Let me put it why i think the execution idea is wrong.
I think, that by use wanting to kill someone out of vengeance is a slippery slope. I do not think it comes out of pragmatism in the slightest, I think it comes from a primal urge to see harm inflicted on others for wrong doings.

Well, I'm glad your predetermination into others motivations are settled then. You're wrong, of course, but keep telling yourself that.

By the way, just another example of how imprisoning someone forever is worse than death, Jodi Arias stated, after being convicted, "I said years ago that I'd rather get death than life, and that still is true today, I believe death is the ultimate freedom, so I'd rather just have my freedom as soon as I can get it."

It seems to me that forcing someone to live 25+ years in a cage is far crueler and less humane than just killing them. Of course, when she said this, you know what the authorities did? They put her on suicide watch. Because clearly we need to punish her in a way of our choosing, rather than allow her to be done with it.

(From this article)
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/09/justice/arizona-jodi-arias-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

American Prisons are really worthless at rehabilitation, because there is no incentive to rehabilitate. The incentive is to keep prisoners coming back, because repeat customer = big $$$$ for the prison system.

The for-profit prison system is a joke.