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A possible reason why Americans are "bloodthirsty" in comparison to other posters on this board.

If it's any consolation Trex, I actually get what you are saying.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
While guns aren't the only explanation for homicides, one thing that I think can/should be looked at is a comparison between the US and Switzerland. According to Wikipedia, Switzerland has just as much of a gun-rich culture as the US (as in, they are not averse to seeing/owning firearms), however they do have fewer gun deaths per year compared to the US.

So what gives? They would seem to be on the same level as the US is most every respect, except for the wealth divide. I mean, they have better working healthcare systems in place, I'd bet they have better education systems (as in free/cheap university fees), etc. All of which means greater economic "freedom" for everyone there.

The wealth divide is considerable driver, I agree. But I'd argue that a large part of the difference between the gun cultures of the two countries. Having an assault rifle stored and disassembled for use as part of government run training for national defense is very different to having a pistol in the home (or on your person) in case something happens. I mean, in 2012 there was more than 3,400 people killed in arguments - that's about four times as many as were killed in gangland violence. Now we can't say that a firearm directly contributed to all of those killings, but we can certainly say that having a gun nearby in a heated moment increases the chance of a really rash decision being made.

And funnily enough Switzerland has, among Europe, the health care system that's closest to your own, and much closer now that ACA is in place (mandatory insurance, minimal government provision of healthcare). The end result is nowhere near as expensive as the US system, but compared to other countries in Europe you're looking at paying a lot more for basically the same results. The calls we've seen in the last few years that call for it to be lauded are almost entirely political in nature.

Couple that with the fact that they would seem to have clear guidance on their National gun laws vs, city/municipality laws (ie. what applies federally is also guaranteed to apply locally, unlike the US)

I think that's a really good point. One of the issues that gets lost in the debate is that clarity and consistency in laws is at least as important as the tightness of any restrictions.


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 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Maybe some other factors include;
- lack of gang violence

As I've said possibly a dozen times now, gang violence is way overestimated as a driver of the US murder rate. Out of the more than 12,000 murders in the US, gangland killings are responsible for about 800.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_10_murder_circumstances_by_relationship_2012.xls

- homogenized culture

Racial issues are responsible for very few murders. Seriously, go look at the numbers.

- better mental health services

There is absolutely nothing to suggest Switzerland or any other country has superior mental health services to the US. Mental health is poorly funded and organised everywhere.

- population size

Umm, having more people doesn't somehow make them more murderous.

Its the human race here. Violence is in our nature. It can be verbal. It can be physical. Literature can inflame violence. Religion can instigate violence. It does not matter what country, continent, race, sex, ethnic, or age. Human beings are quite capable of violence. I am quite quite capable of extreme violence and remain calm. A few others on here in Dakka are the same way. You are quite capable to act in extreme violence. We're human. Welcome to the human race and its creative way to kill our fellow humans. Without violence then we as a Nation should not exist as the same to those European nations formed 1900 and upward

 whembly wrote:
Not those Aussie Spidies...

I remember when I was a kid and there was a spider that set it self up on the kitchen roof. A huntsman, so about the size of your palm, but harmless. Mum wanted to kill it or at least get it out of the house, but Dad said it was harmless. I called it 'wolfie' and said good morning and good night to it every day. After a week it disappeared, and we kind of forgot about it.

About a month after that we woke up in the morning and there were tiny baby spiders covering the ceiling of the kitchen, living room and dining room. Millions of them.

Never saw a spider last long in the house after that.

 Jihadin wrote:
Its the human race here. Violence is in our nature. It can be verbal. It can be physical. Literature can inflame violence. Religion can instigate violence. It does not matter what country, continent, race, sex, ethnic, or age. Human beings are quite capable of violence. I am quite quite capable of extreme violence and remain calm. A few others on here in Dakka are the same way. You are quite capable to act in extreme violence. We're human. Welcome to the human race and its creative way to kill our fellow humans. Without violence then we as a Nation should not exist as the same to those European nations formed 1900 and upward

What are you even talking about now? What post are you responding to? How is this post relevant to anything? You just come across like a completely uncivilized psychotic. Are you purposefully trying to be obtuse as possible?

 sebster wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Not those Aussie Spidies...

I remember when I was a kid and there was a spider that set it self up on the kitchen roof. A huntsman, so about the size of your palm, but harmless. Mum wanted to kill it or at least get it out of the house, but Dad said it was harmless. I called it 'wolfie' and said good morning and good night to it every day. After a week it disappeared, and we kind of forgot about it.

About a month after that we woke up in the morning and there were tiny baby spiders covering the ceiling of the kitchen, living room and dining room. Millions of them.

Never saw a spider last long in the house after that.

Discovery Channel had a mini series about those situation. One house that was in North Carolina was over ran by Brown Recluse. Another house in a northern state I believe was built over a garter snake

Experts said the home was likely built on a winter snake sanctuary - called a hibernaculum - where snakes gather to hibernate for the winter.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/snake-house-horrors-idaho-family-driven-home-finding-thousands-serpents-article-1.128936#ixzz34UHQqFF2

Relapse wrote:


A friend of mine from Australia that moved here told me of the great fun he used to have as a child teasing Funnel Spiders with a stick. The fun lasted until his father caught him at it one day.

.

He is a very lucky man and living proof that children are dum.

We need to just use real police off duty, a color of the law job, they roll into the schools, maybe two to three or more depending on the school size and work there during the hours that school is in progress. Gun free zones are the problem, not strict gun control...
If the Police doing the job happen to be SWAT or Patrol Rifle, then they work at the school in their full kit. End of school violence. At college campus allow conceal carry, and again, the school hires off duty cops to patrol on foot with full kit.

 trexmeyer wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Its the human race here. Violence is in our nature. It can be verbal. It can be physical. Literature can inflame violence. Religion can instigate violence. It does not matter what country, continent, race, sex, ethnic, or age. Human beings are quite capable of violence. I am quite quite capable of extreme violence and remain calm. A few others on here in Dakka are the same way. You are quite capable to act in extreme violence. We're human. Welcome to the human race and its creative way to kill our fellow humans. Without violence then we as a Nation should not exist as the same to those European nations formed 1900 and upward

What are you even talking about now? What post are you responding to? How is this post relevant to anything? You just come across like a completely uncivilized psychotic. Are you purposefully trying to be obtuse as possible?

I quite like the post, I think Jihadin summed up humanity well.

 Jihadin wrote:
Its the human race here. Violence is in our nature. It can be verbal. It can be physical. Literature can inflame violence. Religion can instigate violence. It does not matter what country, continent, race, sex, ethnic, or age. Human beings are quite capable of violence. I am quite quite capable of extreme violence and remain calm. A few others on here in Dakka are the same way. You are quite capable to act in extreme violence. We're human. Welcome to the human race and its creative way to kill our fellow humans. Without violence then we as a Nation should not exist as the same to those European nations formed 1900 and upward

Actually, as already established over dozens of gun threads, it does matter what country you are from (and within that country it does matter what sex and ethnicity you have). The rates of violence and murder vary greatly. The question is what social factors impact on one country or group within that country to make them more likely to be violent, more likely to murder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
Discovery Channel had a mini series about those situation.

Wasn't really that much of a situation in our case. I went to school. Apparently Mum sprayed the gak out of the ceiling, fogged up half the house, used like two cans of spray. Next day she went back for the survivors. And no spider was ever allowed to last more than about 10 seconds in our house ever again.

 sebster wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Its the human race here. Violence is in our nature. It can be verbal. It can be physical. Literature can inflame violence. Religion can instigate violence. It does not matter what country, continent, race, sex, ethnic, or age. Human beings are quite capable of violence. I am quite quite capable of extreme violence and remain calm. A few others on here in Dakka are the same way. You are quite capable to act in extreme violence. We're human. Welcome to the human race and its creative way to kill our fellow humans. Without violence then we as a Nation should not exist as the same to those European nations formed 1900 and upward

Actually, as already established over dozens of gun threads, it does matter what country you are from (and within that country it does matter what sex and ethnicity you have). The rates of violence and murder vary greatly. The question is what social factors impact on one country or group within that country to make them more likely to be violent, more likely to murder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
Discovery Channel had a mini series about those situation.

Wasn't really that much of a situation in our case. I went to school. Apparently Mum sprayed the gak out of the ceiling, fogged up half the house, used like two cans of spray. Next day she went back for the survivors. And no spider was ever allowed to last more than about 10 seconds in our house ever again.

So your mum gave a violent end to the spiders.

edit

Now the family continues to do so

 sebster wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Its the human race here. Violence is in our nature. It can be verbal. It can be physical. Literature can inflame violence. Religion can instigate violence. It does not matter what country, continent, race, sex, ethnic, or age. Human beings are quite capable of violence. I am quite quite capable of extreme violence and remain calm. A few others on here in Dakka are the same way. You are quite capable to act in extreme violence. We're human. Welcome to the human race and its creative way to kill our fellow humans. Without violence then we as a Nation should not exist as the same to those European nations formed 1900 and upward

Actually, as already established over dozens of gun threads, it does matter what country you are from (and within that country it does matter what sex and ethnicity you have). The rates of violence and murder vary greatly. The question is what social factors impact on one country or group within that country to make them more likely to be violent, more likely to murder.

Except that, on a species level, we humans seem to be nowhere near as creative as when we are creating new, inventive ways to kill each other.

Sure, sharpening a stick and hardening it in a fire was "originally" invented to kill animals for food, but very quickly "Ugg" became chief of his clan, because he figured out that the pointy end when into "throg" very easily, and he stopped moving. Unfortunately for Ugg, he was dethroned by Muck, who figured out that certain rocks could be hardened, and they made red stuff come out of Ugg even easier than his burnt stick.... And so on, and so forth.

I mean, how many inventions can we directly or indirectly attribute civilian uses from it's original "war time" purpose?

 Jihadin wrote:
So your mum gave a violent end to the spiders.

edit

Now the family continues to do so

Well I moved out about 15 years ago, and spend most of that time living in harmony with spiders and all other animals - a state commonly referred to as being a lazy ass bachelor. Now I'm married to an Italian, and they kill anything that enters the house like its some kind of religious conviction


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Except that, on a species level, we humans seem to be nowhere near as creative as when we are creating new, inventive ways to kill each other.

No argument here on that point. Just that in a conversation about actual violence, it's worth noting how much society and circumstance can affect that instinct.

 sebster wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
So your mum gave a violent end to the spiders.

edit

Now the family continues to do so

Well I moved out about 15 years ago, and spend most of that time living in harmony with spiders and all other animals - a state commonly referred to as being a lazy ass bachelor. Now I'm married to an Italian, and they kill anything that enters the house like its some kind of religious conviction


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Except that, on a species level, we humans seem to be nowhere near as creative as when we are creating new, inventive ways to kill each other.

No argument here on that point. Just that in a conversation about actual violence, it's worth noting how much society and circumstance can affect that instinct.

First Sebster. Don't ever, ever and I mean ever piss off your wife. ITALIAN

A violent act though does not have to mean just "killing another human". It also involve destroying property like your fire axe wielding teen you had there a bit back. Exterminatus on insects, even violent thoughts can be construed as violent reaction. Even a violent outburst when your star football player totally bolo's a easy kick into a goal.

I mention before
A individual is product of his environment. The individual thought process though is an unknown. You cannot predict when someone brain goes off the reservation. To complicate things more is the availability of potential weapons within reach. That can be anything. Fire arms though is the media magnet. Unless its something off the wall. Like a nail gun. or

In January 2013, police were called to a trailer park in Snohomish County, Washington after residents heard fighting from a neighbor’s home. When police arrived, they found 192-lb Lange apparently passed out on her 175-lb boyfriend—with her chest completely smothering his face. Although some might consider death by breasts the best way to go, it seems the boyfriend did not enjoy his final moments, as witnesses heard him screaming for Lange to get off, and investigators discovered clumps of her hair in his dead hands.

Lange was charged with second-degree murder.

A guy shot up my university at the time with handguns. I would be OK with a complete ban on them for everyone without a reason to own one. They changed the laws about them at the time, but I'm not sure what they did or if it had any effect.

I haven't had a university be shot up since as far as I know, so chalk another one up for gun control, I guess.

(You do not need a handgun to defend yourself from huntsman spiders, as they are friends. Gigantic friends that can fit in tiny spaces and then fall out alarmingly when they have the opportunity. Once I turned on a garden tap and a huntsman fell out of it.

Sydney Funnelwebs are another thing entirely, and IMO the best reason to prevent global warming is to avoid the Sydney Funnelweb habitation zone moving any further south. Maybe people should be allowed to own handguns in NSW.)

I once filled a water bottle up (the metal kind) and about an hour later took a mouthful. Tasted funny so I opened the bottle and poured out a the water. Tiny, tiny spiders came out. So, so many of them. *shudders*

 Jihadin wrote:
First Sebster. Don't ever, ever and I mean ever piss off your wife. ITALIAN

I piss her off about seven times a day. What can you do?

I mention before
A individual is product of his environment. The individual thought process though is an unknown. You cannot predict when someone brain goes off the reservation. To complicate things more is the availability of potential weapons within reach. That can be anything. Fire arms though is the media magnet. Unless its something off the wall. Like a nail gun. or

Sure, did you remember the one about the grown man who started strangling a kid over a Call of Duty game? They weren't even in the same house, the guy had to put down his controller, walk about five minutes, open the door and he was still pissed enough to start strangling this kid. Incredible stuff, really.

Anyhow, as random as any individual instance might be, across a whole population it works out pretty consistently. We can say with great confidence, for instance, that the US will have about 11,000 to 12,000 murders this year. A small number will be planned, and the rest will be people under some kind of stress reacting in the worst possible way. Now, I think it is reasonable to accept that there is some greater level of stress in the US (the wealth inequality as mentioned earlier), but I don't believe Americans are somehow more likely to react poorly to stress than any other developed country - you guys aren't just inherently more murderous.

And so we have to look at what difference there is in the US that makes you two or three times more likely react in the worst possible way and murder someone. You mention the availability of weapons and that anything can be a weapon, but at what point do we recognise that guns are more effective at the job, and therefore more likely to trigger a response? I mean, people mention a nail gun, but those things are unwieldy as anything...

And you can say that guns are the media magnet, but most of those murders will be carried out with gun, and only a dozen or so will get mass media coverage.

 sebster wrote:

And you can say that guns are the media magnet, but most of those murders will be carried out with gun, and only a dozen or so will get mass media coverage.

That dozen will saturate the 24-hour news cycle for days or even weeks on end though.

 Jihadin wrote:

In January 2013, police were called to a trailer park in Snohomish County, Washington after residents heard fighting from a neighbor’s home. When police arrived, they found 192-lb Lange apparently passed out on her 175-lb boyfriend—with her chest completely smothering his face. Although some might consider death by breasts the best way to go, it seems the boyfriend did not enjoy his final moments, as witnesses heard him screaming for Lange to get off, and investigators discovered clumps of her hair in his dead hands.

Lange was charged with second-degree murder.

Are we talking 38DD's here or larger? You need to be able to cover the nose and mouth completely.

I need pictures.

For research.

 kronk wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

In January 2013, police were called to a trailer park in Snohomish County, Washington after residents heard fighting from a neighbor’s home. When police arrived, they found 192-lb Lange apparently passed out on her 175-lb boyfriend—with her chest completely smothering his face. Although some might consider death by breasts the best way to go, it seems the boyfriend did not enjoy his final moments, as witnesses heard him screaming for Lange to get off, and investigators discovered clumps of her hair in his dead hands.

Lange was charged with second-degree murder.

Are we talking 38DD's here or larger? You need to be able to cover the nose and mouth completely.

I need pictures.

For research.

Kronk, she was 192lbs... If you saw pictures, the term "what has been seen cannot be unseen" comes to mind

5'6" and 200lbs, they were probably pretty hefty Kronk.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
None of the reasons I have seen given for infringing on the second have been good enough though.

Yelling ''fire'' in a crowded theater is good reason to restrict free speech. There is not any equivalent reason for restricting the 2nd.

I'm not talking about 2nd amendment rights, I'm talking about rights in general. A good example for guns is you are not allowed to bring a gun into a crowded building.




Would you be OK with having to register to own guns?

No, I'm not ok with having to register to own guns, or that I in fact own guns, or that I own X, Y, and Z guns.


And why would being in a crowded building be a compelling reason not to carry a gun?

 -Shrike- wrote:
- The purpose of the firearms is geared towards a militia, rather than private use.

Could you expand upon this point please

austrailia, didnt have a gun problem before the 96 laws were passed,

they didnt have one after the laws were passed,

crediting the laws for solving a problem you never had, is silly.

Here in canada, we have had gun mass murders as well, and have passed very restrictive laws against them, also with the express intent of solving the mass murder problem.

yet we have still had mass murders, and OFC there is a crowd that simply repeats the same mantra of "make more gun laws"

If more gun laws would have prevented this oregon shooting, then why did they not prevent the moncton shooting in canada a few weeks ago?

Canada already has every anti gunners dream laws passed, yet the solution to every single shooting is just more laws...

and the "solution" to the oregon shooting is to emulate canadas laws... even though canada, with all the laws people are proposing in the states and THEN some, still has the same thing happening from time to time.

The reality is, these shootings are extremely rare, and kill far less people then far more mundane objects like cars, swimming pools, bats/fists/knives and so on.

The reality is that anti gun people are not only as a rule grossly mis informed on guns, but they are outright hoplophobic.

Good to see you anti gunners actually being honest and admitting it is in fact about banning guns, not "reasonable" gun control laws though. At least be honest about what the end game is with all of this.

 -Shrike- wrote:
- The purpose of the firearms is geared towards a militia, rather than private use.

Ummmm.... no.

You know how that lame interpretation came about? Here's what happened.

After the civil war ended, you had the terrorist wing of the Democratic party (the KKK) running amok, doing their best to intimidate the recently freed slaves.

It just so happened that some of these recently freed slaves had firearms. There must have been a few times where the Klan got shot up pretty good. Well, we can't have that now. We mustn't have colored folk shooting up the white guys and voting however they want. Enter the "militia only" interpretation of the 2nd amendment. Here's a good way to disarm all those pesky black people so the former slaveowners can run things like they want.

So rest easy, libs and Democrats. You have your KKK forefathers to thank for this freedom-hating interpretation of the constitution.

Don't believe me?

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/law_review_articles/heller_2nd_amendment.pdf

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

In January 2013, police were called to a trailer park in Snohomish County, Washington after residents heard fighting from a neighbor’s home. When police arrived, they found 192-lb Lange apparently passed out on her 175-lb boyfriend—with her chest completely smothering his face. Although some might consider death by breasts the best way to go, it seems the boyfriend did not enjoy his final moments, as witnesses heard him screaming for Lange to get off, and investigators discovered clumps of her hair in his dead hands.

Lange was charged with second-degree murder.

Are we talking 38DD's here or larger? You need to be able to cover the nose and mouth completely.

I need pictures.

For research.

Kronk, she was 192lbs... If you saw pictures, the term "what has been seen cannot be unseen" comes to mind

Look, sometimes you just need a little cushion for the pushin'.

192 lbs doesn't seem all that huge.

I'm 210 and not even close to being a "big guy"

 Grey Templar wrote:
192 lbs doesn't seem all that huge.

I'm 210 and not even close to being a "big guy"

Yeah, but that kind of weight is COMPLETELY different on women

It's also completely different to be that weight at 5'6" instead of 5'10"+.