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You never addressed GoI.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you bother to read the second line of the Deep Strike rule, it tells you arring by Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserve.

SJ

Now there is a gross misquote taken out of context.

DEEP STRIKE

I'll underline it:

Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

SJ

Fixed the highlightfor you.

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you bother to read the second line of the Deep Strike rule, it tells you arring by Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserve.

SJ

Now there is a gross misquote taken out of context.

DEEP STRIKE

I'll underline it:

Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

SJ

Fixed the highlightfor you.

You didn't fix anything. Per proper grammar, the parenthesis effects the passage after the comma, not the passage before that comma. GW might have intended otherwise, but they did write it in this specific manner. Yet, in doing so, they did in fact reconcile all of the different wording throughout the many rulebook allowing Deep Strike to work the same for everyone (which is my guess that it was in fact intended). <See what I did there?>

SJ

On the other hand:

sometimes referred to as deep strike reserves (the sometimes being what you intentionally left out of the quote the first time)

Does not mean the same thing as:

every time referred to as deep strike reserves

Sometimes means "occasionally, rather than all of the time." which tells me there are times when Deep Strike is not referred to as Deep Strike Reserves, yet someone always insists it means every time when debating this rule.

Lusiphur wrote:
On the other hand:

sometimes referred to as deep strike reserves (the sometimes being what you intentionally left out of the quote the first time)

Does not mean the same thing as:

every time referred to as deep strike reserves

Sometimes means "occasionally, rather than all of the time." which tells me there are times when Deep Strike is not referred to as Deep Strike Reserves, yet someone always insists it means every time when debating this rule.

You are over thinking it to prove your point, rather than just reading it as written (also known as RAW). See what I did there, again?

SJ

Overthinking it? What?

So by reading it RAW, you mean completely ignoring the word "sometimes" counts as RAW? Really?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you bother to read the second line of the Deep Strike rule, it tells you arring by Deep Strike is also known as Deep Strike Reserve.

SJ

Now there is a gross misquote taken out of context.

DEEP STRIKE

I'll underline it:

Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

SJ

Fixed the highlightfor you.

You didn't fix anything. Per proper grammar, the parenthesis effects the passage after the comma, not the passage before that comma. GW might have intended otherwise, but they did write it in this specific manner. Yet, in doing so, they did in fact reconcile all of the different wording throughout the many rulebook allowing Deep Strike to work the same for everyone (which is my guess that it was in fact intended). <See what I did there?>SJ

I disagree with your grammar assessment. You seek to exclude the conditional aspect of the sentence so you seek to use some amorphous determination of grammar to fit your goal.

I honestly feel that you are taking this one small phrase and taking it out of context by removing the condition at the beginning. And I honestly think you are over-thinking it.

Or should my Necron Deathmarks be able to use Hunters from Hyperspace when the Veil of Darkness and Obyron move them around the board?

Every rule interaction is taken on a case by case basis. In the Case of Deep Strike, there are a number of legacy rules between the different codexes and the current rulebook that use the phrases such as "by Deep Strike", "the rules for Deep Strike", "from Deep Strike Reserve", "Deep Strike", etc.. The current rules for Deep Strike are built around starting a unit in reserve with the intention of Deep Striking, followed by rules on how to enter play by Deep Strike. The second line of the Deep Strike rule informs us that sometimes the phrase Deep Strike Reserve is used in reference to a unit Deep Striking. However, there is no indication that Deep Strike + Reserve = Deep Strike Reserves. What is apparent is that Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves, regardless of whether or not the unit in question started in reserve. This is the same issue as Assault Cannons not being Assault Weapons, or Heavy Flamers not being Heavy Weapons. A unit that Dee Strikes has arrived by Deep Strike using the Deep Strike rules (sometimes refered to as Deep Strike Reserve). This allows older Deep Strike special rules from models, equipment, or formations to function with the current rule set. It also opens up combos such as using Homing Beacons to ignore scatter while jumping out of a fast moving aircraft.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Every rule interaction is taken on a case by case basis. In the Case of Deep Strike, there are a number of legacy rules between the different codexes and the current rulebook that use the phrases such as "by Deep Strike", "the rules for Deep Strike", "from Deep Strike Reserve", "Deep Strike", etc.. The current rules for Deep Strike are built around starting a unit in reserve with the intention of Deep Striking, followed by rules on how to enter play by Deep Strike. The second line of the Deep Strike rule informs us that sometimes the phrase Deep Strike Reserve is used in reference to a unit Deep Striking. However, there is no indication that Deep Strike + Reserve = Deep Strike Reserves. What is apparent is that Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves, regardless of whether or not the unit in question started in reserve. This is the same issue as Assault Cannons not being Assault Weapons, or Heavy Flamers not being Heavy Weapons. A unit that Dee Strikes has arrived by Deep Strike using the Deep Strike rules (sometimes refered to as Deep Strike Reserve). This allows older Deep Strike special rules from models, equipment, or formations to function with the current rule set. It also opens up combos such as using Homing Beacons to ignore scatter while jumping out of a fast moving aircraft.

Again, I disagree. It is only apparent if you do not read the entire sentence to provide full context of conditions applied to the entire situation. Deep Strike from Reserves is Deep Strike Reserves to differentiate it from situations where a unit is arriving by the rules of Deep Strike, but never was in Reserves, ala Gate of Infinity.

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Every rule interaction is taken on a case by case basis. In the Case of Deep Strike, there are a number of legacy rules between the different codexes and the current rulebook that use the phrases such as "by Deep Strike", "the rules for Deep Strike", "from Deep Strike Reserve", "Deep Strike", etc.. The current rules for Deep Strike are built around starting a unit in reserve with the intention of Deep Striking, followed by rules on how to enter play by Deep Strike. The second line of the Deep Strike rule informs us that sometimes the phrase Deep Strike Reserve is used in reference to a unit Deep Striking. However, there is no indication that Deep Strike + Reserve = Deep Strike Reserves. What is apparent is that Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves, regardless of whether or not the unit in question started in reserve. This is the same issue as Assault Cannons not being Assault Weapons, or Heavy Flamers not being Heavy Weapons. A unit that Dee Strikes has arrived by Deep Strike using the Deep Strike rules (sometimes refered to as Deep Strike Reserve). This allows older Deep Strike special rules from models, equipment, or formations to function with the current rule set. It also opens up combos such as using Homing Beacons to ignore scatter while jumping out of a fast moving aircraft.

Again, I disagree. It is only apparent if you do not read the entire sentence to provide full context of conditions applied to the entire situation. Deep Strike from Reserves is Deep Strike Reserves to differentiate it from situations where a unit is arriving by the rules of Deep Strike, but never was in Reserves, ala Gate of Infinity.

If you say so, just mark your interpretation as HYWPI.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Every rule interaction is taken on a case by case basis. In the Case of Deep Strike, there are a number of legacy rules between the different codexes and the current rulebook that use the phrases such as "by Deep Strike", "the rules for Deep Strike", "from Deep Strike Reserve", "Deep Strike", etc.. The current rules for Deep Strike are built around starting a unit in reserve with the intention of Deep Striking, followed by rules on how to enter play by Deep Strike. The second line of the Deep Strike rule informs us that sometimes the phrase Deep Strike Reserve is used in reference to a unit Deep Striking. However, there is no indication that Deep Strike + Reserve = Deep Strike Reserves. What is apparent is that Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves, regardless of whether or not the unit in question started in reserve. This is the same issue as Assault Cannons not being Assault Weapons, or Heavy Flamers not being Heavy Weapons. A unit that Dee Strikes has arrived by Deep Strike using the Deep Strike rules (sometimes refered to as Deep Strike Reserve). This allows older Deep Strike special rules from models, equipment, or formations to function with the current rule set. It also opens up combos such as using Homing Beacons to ignore scatter while jumping out of a fast moving aircraft.

Again, I disagree. It is only apparent if you do not read the entire sentence to provide full context of conditions applied to the entire situation. Deep Strike from Reserves is Deep Strike Reserves to differentiate it from situations where a unit is arriving by the rules of Deep Strike, but never was in Reserves, ala Gate of Infinity.

If you say so, just mark your interpretation as HYWPI.

I will when you do in regards to this issue.

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Every rule interaction is taken on a case by case basis. In the Case of Deep Strike, there are a number of legacy rules between the different codexes and the current rulebook that use the phrases such as "by Deep Strike", "the rules for Deep Strike", "from Deep Strike Reserve", "Deep Strike", etc.. The current rules for Deep Strike are built around starting a unit in reserve with the intention of Deep Striking, followed by rules on how to enter play by Deep Strike. The second line of the Deep Strike rule informs us that sometimes the phrase Deep Strike Reserve is used in reference to a unit Deep Striking. However, there is no indication that Deep Strike + Reserve = Deep Strike Reserves. What is apparent is that Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves, regardless of whether or not the unit in question started in reserve. This is the same issue as Assault Cannons not being Assault Weapons, or Heavy Flamers not being Heavy Weapons. A unit that Dee Strikes has arrived by Deep Strike using the Deep Strike rules (sometimes refered to as Deep Strike Reserve). This allows older Deep Strike special rules from models, equipment, or formations to function with the current rule set. It also opens up combos such as using Homing Beacons to ignore scatter while jumping out of a fast moving aircraft.

Again, I disagree. It is only apparent if you do not read the entire sentence to provide full context of conditions applied to the entire situation. Deep Strike from Reserves is Deep Strike Reserves to differentiate it from situations where a unit is arriving by the rules of Deep Strike, but never was in Reserves, ala Gate of Infinity.

If you say so, just mark your interpretation as HYWPI.

I will when you do in regards to this issue.

I have no need to, as I play it per RAW. Your overly restrictive interpretation causes other rules to fail, which is why your interpretation cannot be correct, only a house rule.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Every rule interaction is taken on a case by case basis. In the Case of Deep Strike, there are a number of legacy rules between the different codexes and the current rulebook that use the phrases such as "by Deep Strike", "the rules for Deep Strike", "from Deep Strike Reserve", "Deep Strike", etc.. The current rules for Deep Strike are built around starting a unit in reserve with the intention of Deep Striking, followed by rules on how to enter play by Deep Strike. The second line of the Deep Strike rule informs us that sometimes the phrase Deep Strike Reserve is used in reference to a unit Deep Striking. However, there is no indication that Deep Strike + Reserve = Deep Strike Reserves. What is apparent is that Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves, regardless of whether or not the unit in question started in reserve. This is the same issue as Assault Cannons not being Assault Weapons, or Heavy Flamers not being Heavy Weapons. A unit that Dee Strikes has arrived by Deep Strike using the Deep Strike rules (sometimes refered to as Deep Strike Reserve). This allows older Deep Strike special rules from models, equipment, or formations to function with the current rule set. It also opens up combos such as using Homing Beacons to ignore scatter while jumping out of a fast moving aircraft.

Again, I disagree. It is only apparent if you do not read the entire sentence to provide full context of conditions applied to the entire situation. Deep Strike from Reserves is Deep Strike Reserves to differentiate it from situations where a unit is arriving by the rules of Deep Strike, but never was in Reserves, ala Gate of Infinity.

If you say so, just mark your interpretation as HYWPI.

I will when you do in regards to this issue.

I have no need to, as I play it per RAW. Your overly restrictive interpretation causes other rules to fail, which is why your interpretation cannot be correct, only a house rule.

SJ

Just curious, what other rules does it cause to fail?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

I have no need to, as I play it per RAW. Your overly restrictive interpretation causes other rules to fail, which is why your interpretation cannot be correct, only a house rule.

SJ

Indeed you do if you ignore a portion of a sentence which establishes the conditions for the whole sentence.

And, as Blacktoof said, what breaks?

I didn't say break, I said fail, such as every reference to using Deep Strike rules to arrive on the table that does not include the unit starting in reserve.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I didn't say break, I said fail, such as every reference to using Deep Strike rules to arrive on the table that does not include the unit starting in reserve.

SJ

Not weighing in on that part of the debate or anything, but since when did the rules become so infallible that anything causing another rule to break/fail must be immediately wrong? Isn't GW still writing the rules? Don't they still suck at it?

I don't view that stance as proof of a rule's function one way or the other.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I didn't say break, I said fail, such as every reference to using Deep Strike rules to arrive on the table that does not include the unit starting in reserve.

SJ

If a rule causes something to fail, then it is broken or breaks. It's a simple concept.

And considering there is a section of Deep Strike called "Arriving from Deep Strike" and those that DO reference things like this, such as Gate of Infinity, mention that they immediately arrive using the rules of Deep Strike, it just sounds like you're looking for a way to break it instead of just following the paths they lay out.

So what is actually the resolution to the question? I've kind of got lost in the sematics discussion of Deep strike.

Does Skies of Fury allow a unit to disembark from a zooming SR?

Or is the existence of two specific prohibitions, both separate, negating SoF as it only refers to 1? ie movement vs zooming.

I would add that I know that a lot have people have pointed out that the Necron Rules specifically calls out zooming, however, as far as I can recall, that rule only refers to disembarking from a zooming flyer and not to a transport moving more than 6". So would it not follow that Necrons cant disembark either?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
So what is actually the resolution to the question? I've kind of got lost in the sematics discussion of Deep strike.

Does Skies of Fury allow a unit to disembark from a zooming SR?

Or is the existence of two specific prohibitions, both separate, negating SoF as it only refers to 1? ie movement vs zooming.

I would add that I know that a lot have people have pointed out that the Necron Rules specifically calls out zooming, however, as far as I can recall, that rule only refers to disembarking from a zooming flyer and not to a transport moving more than 6". So would it not follow that Necrons cant disembark either?

Cheers

Andrew

The answer to the OP is yes, a unit can disembark from a zooming transport per Skies of Fury, and can use a homing beacon to prevent scatter. That is the RAW answer.

SJ

Really? Then why did we spend 6 pages arguing this?

wrong.
We already clearified, that the BRB still applies regarding disembarking from a zooming flyer.

The answer to OPs question is as follows:

1) The locator beacon can be used.
Reason: The unit is placed as if deepstriking, therefore all rules for deepstriking units apply.
The discussion about reserves or not is irrelevant, since the beacon does not require the unit to be comming from reserves.

2) The unit may do so even if the flyer moved more than 6'', but not while zooming.
Reason: The BRB has 2 relevant rules, no disembark after moving more than 6'' and no disembark from zooming flyers.
Skies of Fury overrules the first rule but not the second.
We also agreed, that most of us would still play it like it allowed disembarking from a zooming flyer, fluff and stuff.

Now please somebody close this mess of a thread, all arguments have been exchanged and the discussion is turning into a never ending story.

@AndrewC:
The necron flyer does allow units to disembark, since zooming is always moving more than 6'' - but moving more than 6'' is not always zooming.

 AndrewC wrote:


I would add that I know that a lot have people have pointed out that the Necron Rules specifically calls out zooming, however, as far as I can recall, that rule only refers to disembarking from a zooming flyer and not to a transport moving more than 6". So would it not follow that Necrons cant disembark either?

It is never possible to disembark from a zooming flyer, so the movement rule must concern hovering. As necron rule specifically lets passengers disembark from a zoomer there is no conflict.

Skies of Fury does nothing to the restriction of a zooming flyer. The yes side claims that it depends on how far the flyer moves whether it zooms or hovers, but that is not the case.

To summarize, Jeffersonian got it incorrect.

Naw wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:


I would add that I know that a lot have people have pointed out that the Necron Rules specifically calls out zooming, however, as far as I can recall, that rule only refers to disembarking from a zooming flyer and not to a transport moving more than 6". So would it not follow that Necrons cant disembark either?

It is never possible to disembark from a zooming flyer, so the movement rule must concern hovering. As necron rule specifically lets passengers disembark from a zoomer there is no conflict.

Skies of Fury does nothing to the restriction of a zooming flyer. The yes side claims that it depends on how far the flyer moves whether it zooms or hovers, but that is not the case.

To summarize, Jeffersonian got it incorrect.

Skies of Fury does not need to point out it can be used while zooming in addition to hovering because the blanket permission to be use at speeds over 6" includes moving 18"-36".

SJ

do us all a favour and just read the past 5 pages. again. and again. and again. until you understand. and then again, just to make sure.

 AndrewC wrote:
So what is actually the resolution to the question? I've kind of got lost in the sematics discussion of Deep strike.

Does Skies of Fury allow a unit to disembark from a zooming SR?

Or is the existence of two specific prohibitions, both separate, negating SoF as it only refers to 1? ie movement vs zooming.

I would add that I know that a lot have people have pointed out that the Necron Rules specifically calls out zooming, however, as far as I can recall, that rule only refers to disembarking from a zooming flyer and not to a transport moving more than 6". So would it not follow that Necrons cant disembark either?

Cheers

Andrew

You can use most locator beacons to not scatter, except Blood Angels because GW, it seems.

No consensus on skies of fury during zooming. Discuss with opponent ahead of time.

Well SJ you completely lost all credibility now.

SoF overrides the flyer restriction since it is more specific such as Necron NS.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Well SJ you completely lost all credibility now.

SoF overrides the flyer restriction since it is more specific such as Necron NS.

How did I lose credibility when you just restated what I stated?

SJ

He is right though, you both just lost credibility.

Both him and you for sure.

Rather amusing. Popcorn?