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 Ashiraya wrote:
If you call the cops and alert them, and they fail to act on your alarm, they can get in serious trouble.

In Sweden anyway. I can't imagine it's much different in Germany.

Well, the exact opposite is true in the US (where courts have consistently held that the police have no duty to protect you), so that may be where the disconnect is.

Regardless, the "serious trouble" they're getting into in this case apparently involves a meeting and then a declaration from the mayor that those darn German women really should do a better job of protecting themselves from this sort of thing.

Seaward wrote:
Well, the exact opposite is true in the US (where courts have consistently held that the police have no duty to protect you)

Wait, seriously? What? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

I can see why you see the need to walk around with guns now. O.o

You should get that sorted out, seriously.

Around here, it is pretty much the point of the police!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Seaward wrote:
Well, the exact opposite is true in the US (where courts have consistently held that the police have no duty to protect you)

Wait, seriously? What? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Yeah, seriously, unfortunately. They are responsible for protecting the public at large, not any one specific person, so are shielded for liability if they do not help specific people.

 motyak wrote:
Another mod said no using the term SJW to dismiss a whole side of the argument/set up strawmen/etc. When I just read ITT someone advocating for just letting people drown, the term xenophobe seems like it fits right in.

 motyak wrote:
Don't turn this into a "lol SJW rahrahrah" thing, that's just trying to insult and shut down a large number of people who take part in these discussions by applying a term to them which is used in a derogatory fashion. Don't do it, it's not polite and it's not how you have an honest discussion.

Pretty sure I was clear about using that term as a derogatory thing

There's a lot of things being said in here that are bordering on rude, so cut it. Now.[

Derogatory terms like racist and xenophobe are frequently thrown around to insult people and shut down their arguments, in the same manner that you say SJW is used. And yet you permit the former.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
The crowd was composed of up to 1,000 heavily intoxicated men ... gathered expressly for the purpose of debasing women by sexually assaulting them

So, the same as every other Friday night in a city then...

My thoughts too. Drunk people molesting people is hardly unique for immigrants. The scale here is bigger than "usual", to be sure, but there's plenty of low-life scum who would do similar things if they thought they could get away with it.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Germany may be shocked, but plenty of Americans saw this coming. Good job on the cultural Seppuku, Merkel!

Here's a thought: don't blame other nations for trying to clean up your mistakes. Or did Germany bomb Iraq to rubble all of a sudden, causing the problems in the Middle-East in the first place.

I thought it was largely the Arab Spring that so many people here were praising which led to this.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Seaward wrote:
Well, the exact opposite is true in the US (where courts have consistently held that the police have no duty to protect you)

Wait, seriously? What? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

I can see why you see the need to walk around with guns now. O.o

You should get that sorted out, seriously.

Around here, it is pretty much the point of the police!

Police forces across Europe are overwhelmed and lack the resources to deal with huge influxes of people. There is literally nothing they can do to stop this (see video below) short of deploying hundreds if not thousands of Riot Police en masse along with water cannon and that takes time, planning and resources.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Seaward wrote:
Well, the exact opposite is true in the US (where courts have consistently held that the police have no duty to protect you)

Wait, seriously? What? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

I can see why you see the need to walk around with guns now. O.o

You should get that sorted out, seriously.

Around here, it is pretty much the point of the police!

There is a very good reason for this though. The police literally cannot protect you in many situations. Thus making them have a legal obligation to do something which is impossible can cause major problems.

If they had an obligation to protect everybody, the following situation could happen. Old lady lives outside of town. Someone begins breaking into her house and she calls police. They are twenty minutes away. She ends up being murdered long before the police arrive. Her son could then sue the police for failing to protect her. That's why we have the police not have an obligation to protect you.

Police exist to enforce the law. Protecting people is secondary.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Police forces across Europe are overwhelmed and lack the resources to deal with huge influxes of people. There is literally nothing they can do to stop this (see video below) short of deploying hundreds if not thousands of Riot Police en masse along with water cannon and that takes time, planning and resources.

That's what happens when you allow more people in than your country can absorb and assimilate properly.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Seaward wrote:
Well, the exact opposite is true in the US (where courts have consistently held that the police have no duty to protect you)

Wait, seriously? What? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

I can see why you see the need to walk around with guns now. O.o

You should get that sorted out, seriously.

Around here, it is pretty much the point of the police!

There is a very good reason for this though. The police literally cannot protect you in many situations. Thus making them have a legal obligation to do something which is impossible can cause major problems.

If they had an obligation to protect everybody, the following situation could happen. Old lady lives outside of town. Someone begins breaking into her house and she calls police. They are twenty minutes away. She ends up being murdered long before the police arrive. Her son could then sue the police for failing to protect her. That's why we have the police not have an obligation to protect you.

Police exist to enforce the law. Protecting people is secondary.

Which is why there's not a duty to protect someone, but rather a duty to try to protect someone. In your scenario, the police would not be culpable because there wasn't anything they could do, but at least they'd tried.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Police exist to enforce the law. Protecting people is secondary.

And you wonder why your government is so incompetent...

 Breotan wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Police forces across Europe are overwhelmed and lack the resources to deal with huge influxes of people. There is literally nothing they can do to stop this (see video below) short of deploying hundreds if not thousands of Riot Police en masse along with water cannon and that takes time, planning and resources.

That's what happens when you allow more people in than your country can absorb and assimilate properly.

Which wouldn't be happening if the rest of Europe weren't chickening out of helping.

I'm sure if you look up- the actual case law/statutes in your country, you'll find the police have no legal duty to protect you, or are legally protected from being sued.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

And you wonder why your government is so incompetent...

That's an unfair characterization... have you seen the size of the US?

We don't live in a Police State™.

Wow people in this thread really showed their true colors.

drown in the aegean

Holy lord that is probably why I don't trust people.

If they had an obligation to protect everybody, the following situation could happen. Old lady lives outside of town. Someone begins breaking into her house and she calls police. They are twenty minutes away. She ends up being murdered long before the police arrive. Her son could then sue the police for failing to protect her. That's why we have the police not have an obligation to protect you.

Police exist to enforce the law. Protecting people is secondary.

The police can't protect everyone. I mean to counter this I could say a Lifeguard has the duty to act and protect. If someone breaks a rule we aren't going to say oh this person is drowning, but I am dealing with an injury, so I can't do anything. Priortization usually happens and if we fail to save their life (IE they flatlined, and we did all we could do) then you won't get sued. Because under the good samartian laws you are not obligated to save someone if they are dead. You have the duty to act, if you screwed up, you will be charged and fined, sued etc. If you don't then you have nothing to worry about.

Police in the united states exist to enforce the law and protect people second. That is not true for the rest of the world.

In a perfect world it would be protecting people first, and then enforcing the law.




In general the United States has quite a few interesting things, but that doesn't really matter for this thread. Germany is facing this problem and my questions still have gone unanswered from before. Mostly in prevention, how do we deal with this? What would the punishments be at best?

 whembly wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

And you wonder why your government is so incompetent...

That's an unfair characterization... have you seen the size of the US?

We don't live in a Police State™.

Apparently you live in a State where "every man for himself" is firmly entrenched enough that even law enforcement officially gets in on it.

Unless you have a policeman on permenant protection detail with every single citizen then protecting people as a priority is impossible.

The police can only react after the fact, that's all they can be expected to do.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
The crowd was composed of up to 1,000 heavily intoxicated men ... gathered expressly for the purpose of debasing women by sexually assaulting them

So, the same as every other Friday night in a city then...

My thoughts too. Drunk people molesting people is hardly unique for immigrants. The scale here is bigger than "usual", to be sure, but there's plenty of low-life scum who would do similar things if they thought they could get away with it.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Germany may be shocked, but plenty of Americans saw this coming. Good job on the cultural Seppuku, Merkel!

Here's a thought: don't blame other nations for trying to clean up your mistakes. Or did Germany bomb Iraq to rubble all of a sudden, causing the problems in the Middle-East in the first place.

Sorry, I missed the part where I personally had anything to do with any of this, in any way shape or form possible, considering that I've never been a proponent of the Iraq war nor a proponent of intervening in the affairs of Arab Muslim nations. On top of that, I don't even vote, and my payment of taxes is completely involuntary. Perhaps you could explain that part?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless you have a policeman on permenant protection detail with every single citizen then protecting people as a priority is impossible.

The police can only react after the fact, that's all they can be expected to do.

Bull. If the police arive on the scene and catch someone raping someone in flagrante delicto they can totally intervene before it gets worse. Further, the inability to protect everyone at once is not a valid reason not to try.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
The crowd was composed of up to 1,000 heavily intoxicated men ... gathered expressly for the purpose of debasing women by sexually assaulting them

So, the same as every other Friday night in a city then...

My thoughts too. Drunk people molesting people is hardly unique for immigrants. The scale here is bigger than "usual", to be sure, but there's plenty of low-life scum who would do similar things if they thought they could get away with it.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Germany may be shocked, but plenty of Americans saw this coming. Good job on the cultural Seppuku, Merkel!

Here's a thought: don't blame other nations for trying to clean up your mistakes. Or did Germany bomb Iraq to rubble all of a sudden, causing the problems in the Middle-East in the first place.

Sorry, I missed the part where I personally had anything to do with any of this, in any way shape or form possible, considering that I've never been a proponent of the Iraq war nor a proponent of intervening in the affairs of Arab Muslim nations. On top of that, I don't even vote, and my payment of taxes is completely involuntary. Perhaps you could explain that part?

Part of the responsibility of a democracy is to own up to mistakes made in the past, even if one weren't in favour of them. Considering your posting history on Dakka I think it's safe to say that you're not in favour of helping anyone, anywhere, ever.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless you have a policeman on permenant protection detail with every single citizen then protecting people as a priority is impossible.

The police can only react after the fact, that's all they can be expected to do.

Not true. They can be proactive through the use of foot patrols. Having an active street presence lets them be more proactive and react faster. The problem is that Police numbers and budgets have tended to be cut year on year, so they lack the resources to do this.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
The crowd was composed of up to 1,000 heavily intoxicated men ... gathered expressly for the purpose of debasing women by sexually assaulting them

So, the same as every other Friday night in a city then...

My thoughts too. Drunk people molesting people is hardly unique for immigrants. The scale here is bigger than "usual", to be sure, but there's plenty of low-life scum who would do similar things if they thought they could get away with it.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Germany may be shocked, but plenty of Americans saw this coming. Good job on the cultural Seppuku, Merkel!

Here's a thought: don't blame other nations for trying to clean up your mistakes. Or did Germany bomb Iraq to rubble all of a sudden, causing the problems in the Middle-East in the first place.

Sorry, I missed the part where I personally had anything to do with any of this, in any way shape or form possible, considering that I've never been a proponent of the Iraq war nor a proponent of intervening in the affairs of Arab Muslim nations. On top of that, I don't even vote, and my payment of taxes is completely involuntary. Perhaps you could explain that part?

Again, trying to see what Iraq has to do with North Africa, which is, you know, thousands of miles away.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Police forces across Europe are overwhelmed and lack the resources to deal with huge influxes of people. There is literally nothing they can do to stop this (see video below) short of deploying hundreds if not thousands of Riot Police en masse along with water cannon and that takes time, planning and resources.

That's what happens when you allow more people in than your country can absorb and assimilate properly.

Which wouldn't be happening if the rest of Europe weren't chickening out of helping.

What does the rest of Europe have to do with your country's decision to allow more people in than it can handle?

There's this idea of European solidarity, though it is much battered and abused this last decade or so, I'm hoping it with see a resurgence.

Oh, and on the Mayor's comments, they are really dumb, but it's one statement taken out of context from the end of a longer response. It's not the only thing she's recommending. Still, there have been stupid statements from other left wing politicians - I'm especially embarrassed by the response of the Green Party, since I'd like to be a *proud* green voter for once in my life...

 Breotan wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Police forces across Europe are overwhelmed and lack the resources to deal with huge influxes of people. There is literally nothing they can do to stop this (see video below) short of deploying hundreds if not thousands of Riot Police en masse along with water cannon and that takes time, planning and resources.

That's what happens when you allow more people in than your country can absorb and assimilate properly.

Which wouldn't be happening if the rest of Europe weren't chickening out of helping.

What does the rest of Europe have to do with your country's decision to allow more people in than it can handle?

The same amount of people split over all of Europe wouldn't be nearly as taxing. There just aren't any options, beyond forcing people back into an active warzone.

Plus, who said anything about taking more people than we can handle? We're coping just fine, so far.

 Da Boss wrote:
There's this idea of European solidarity, though it is much battered and abused this last decade or so, I'm hoping it with see a resurgence.

This. The UK and France in particular, but many EU countries have benefited immensely from being part of the EU. It's not just free handouts though, it's responsibilites too.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Part of the responsibility of a democracy is to own up to mistakes made in the past, even if one weren't in favour of them. Considering your posting history on Dakka I think it's safe to say that you're not in favour of helping anyone, anywhere, ever.

Counterpoint: I was most in favor of helping the Israelis deal with their Islamic terrorism problem, and the region hasn't really been quite as well behaved since I left.


Usually when we accuse an entire group of people of doing something committed by a subset of that group, it's considered racist, xenophobic, or otherwise bigoted. It's good to see that on Dakka it's OK, as long as the target group is Americans, generally.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless you have a policeman on permenant protection detail with every single citizen then protecting people as a priority is impossible.

The police can only react after the fact, that's all they can be expected to do.

Not true. They can be proactive through the use of foot patrols. Having an active street presence lets them be more proactive and react faster. The problem is that Police numbers and budgets have tended to be cut year on year, so they lack the resources to do this.

Solution: Halve the military budget (at the very least - the US seriously doesn't need a military budget larger than Norway's GDP) and disperse the saved money into civic improvements such as healthcare, education and police funding. Yes, believe me, ~300 billion dollars extra in those areas can make a difference, even in a country that large.

Congratulations, the country has been improved.

I can imagine that the first politician to suggest this would be burned at the stake.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Part of the responsibility of a democracy is to own up to mistakes made in the past, even if one weren't in favour of them. Considering your posting history on Dakka I think it's safe to say that you're not in favour of helping anyone, anywhere, ever.

Counterpoint: I was most in favor of helping the Israelis deal with their Islamic terrorism problem, and the region hasn't really been quite as well behaved since I left.


Usually when we accuse an entire group of people of doing something committed by a subset of that group, it's considered racist, xenophobic, or otherwise bigoted. It's good to see that on Dakka it's OK, as long as the target group is Americans, generally.

You weren't speaking on behalf of yourself, you said that "plenty of Americans" had seen this coming. You made yourself the voice of "plenty of Americans". You don't get to speak on behalf of people in their capacity as members of a certain nation and then discard that when it comes back to bite you in the ass.

@AlmightWalrus.

The same amount of people split over all of Europe wouldn't be nearly as taxing. There just aren't any options, beyond forcing people back into an active warzone.

How about splitting them all over the world? Why is this solely Europe's responsibility? The USA, Canada, Gulf States etc should be contributing too.

Plus, who said anything about taking more people than we can handle? We're coping just fine, so far.

Is Cologne coping just fine? Is Sweden? Didn't the Swedish Deputy Prime Minister break down on TV announcing that they forced to close the borders and stop taking refugees?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Counterpoint: I was most in favor of helping the Israelis deal with their Islamic terrorism problem, and the region hasn't really been quite as well behaved since I left.

Which implies that your help was not very effective in the long run.

Sweden is just as fine as any other country. Our high crime % is mainly due to generous definitions and high percentage of crimes being reported rather than unreported.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Unless you have a policeman on permenant protection detail with every single citizen then protecting people as a priority is impossible.

The police can only react after the fact, that's all they can be expected to do.

Not true. They can be proactive through the use of foot patrols. Having an active street presence lets them be more proactive and react faster. The problem is that Police numbers and budgets have tended to be cut year on year, so they lack the resources to do this.

Solution: Halve the military budget (at the very least - the US seriously doesn't need a military budget larger than Norway's GDP) and disperse the saved money into civic improvements such as healthcare, education and police funding. Yes, believe me, ~300 billion dollars extra in those areas can make a difference, even in a country that large.

Congratulations, the country has been improved.

I can imagine that the first politician to suggest this would be burned at the stake.

Or lynched by his own party.

<cough>Jeremy Corbyn<cough>

 Frazzled wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
The crowd was composed of up to 1,000 heavily intoxicated men ... gathered expressly for the purpose of debasing women by sexually assaulting them

So, the same as every other Friday night in a city then...

My thoughts too. Drunk people molesting people is hardly unique for immigrants. The scale here is bigger than "usual", to be sure, but there's plenty of low-life scum who would do similar things if they thought they could get away with it.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Germany may be shocked, but plenty of Americans saw this coming. Good job on the cultural Seppuku, Merkel!

Here's a thought: don't blame other nations for trying to clean up your mistakes. Or did Germany bomb Iraq to rubble all of a sudden, causing the problems in the Middle-East in the first place.

Sorry, I missed the part where I personally had anything to do with any of this, in any way shape or form possible, considering that I've never been a proponent of the Iraq war nor a proponent of intervening in the affairs of Arab Muslim nations. On top of that, I don't even vote, and my payment of taxes is completely involuntary. Perhaps you could explain that part?

Again, trying to see what Iraq has to do with North Africa, which is, you know, thousands of miles away.

I'm trying to understand why no one seems to have brought up the much lauded Arab Spring and it's part in all of this.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Part of the responsibility of a democracy is to own up to mistakes made in the past, even if one weren't in favour of them. Considering your posting history on Dakka I think it's safe to say that you're not in favour of helping anyone, anywhere, ever.

Counterpoint: I was most in favor of helping the Israelis deal with their Islamic terrorism problem, and the region hasn't really been quite as well behaved since I left.


Usually when we accuse an entire group of people of doing something committed by a subset of that group, it's considered racist, xenophobic, or otherwise bigoted. It's good to see that on Dakka it's OK, as long as the target group is Americans, generally.

You weren't speaking on behalf of yourself, you said that "plenty of Americans" had seen this coming. You made yourself the voice of "plenty of Americans". You don't get to speak on behalf of people in their capacity as members of a certain nation and then discard that when it comes back to bite you in the ass.

Plenty of Americans did see this coming.

http://time.com/4122938/refugees-syria-america-poll/

What does admitting refugees have to do with the Iraq war? With the civil war in Syria? With any of the factors causing the mess in the first place? You're really floundering here.