Traitor's Hate Love

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**Wayniac**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
I think what I can't get over, is that Traitor's Hate doesn't do anything but make it more likely to take unfluffy choices or min/max. Like, most lists for the Warband are the same old crap, take minimal squads, max out on min squad havocs, don't take Raptors because they suck, min Terminators, etc.

I mean, I get people have their own styles of play, but damn it that feels dirty to me and nowhere near how the background is supposed to be. Taking a Cabal just because psychic powers are good now is a cop out. Taking min squads just to "unlock" formations is straight up powergaming. It has never and will never sit well with me, and while I fully think Traitor's Hate is an improvement over what we had before, it just feels like it made the stuff people already take that much better so they'll keep taking it.

For instance, every time I think of lists for a Chaos Warband, it's always the same kind of minimal squad powergaming cheesey bullgak as a "tax" and then see about how much of the good stuff can get crammed in to actually do the work. That does not feel correct to me.

40k has been like this for ages. Minimum troops to cram heavy support or elites was a thing in the past too.

Yes and it was looked down upon then too. I played in the days when "Mauleed Marines" (6-man lascannon/plasma back before they took that option away) was the optimal way to play. It was still gak.

However that said I think I might be coming around to the viability of this supplement. The fact that I actually sat down to paint a model for the Army I was thinking of and found not only did I forget how annoying red is to paint, but also I cannot really nailed down the correct colors. So my backup plan involves this supplement

Automatically Appended Next Post:

koooaei wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
I think what I can't get over, is that Traitor's Hate doesn't do anything but make it more likely to take unfluffy choices or min/max.

U kidding, right? It buffs oblits, terminators, raptors and even warp talons.

No I'm not kidding. Those units got better, but are still pretty gakky. Also, they require expensive formations. Which is fine if you want to ally in a Lord with a band of Raptors/Talons, and still screw you if like me you just like how Raptors look and maybe want to consider a squad in your normal army, not a full on "second army" approach to it.

**ZebioLizard2**

I'm still not even sure the Warp Talons got better, the Disordered charge and the lack of assault grenades just make it far too risky.

**Nightlord1987**

I gotta say, I love how all my shelved units I affectionately consider "The Rejects list" all fit perfectly into an 1850 Black Crusade detachment.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.

Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.

Scouts aren't bad anymore...

Without chapter tactics and/or a LSS (why the feth to BA still not have this?)to ferry them around the non-sniper kind are actually pretty bad. Their online use is for locator beacons or messing with the opponents infiltrators.

They're errata'd to have the WS4. And BS4 for Shotgun lovers. All you really need is the furious charge at that point. They're an easily spammed OS unit and would cost the same as a Mutilator with none of the drawbacks.

Drawbacks like flesh metal or drawbacks like being a 65 point distraction fexes that deepstrikes?

OS doesn't mean jack if they can't reach the objective before they're smoked. MSU is fine unless you blow over to a stiff breeze. Furious charge? With shotgun scouts? Seriously?

Drawbacks being that they suffer more per wound lost, don't make as much use of cover, have slow and purposeful so they can't even be an effective distraction, and still don't have OS.

You can't seriously be suggesting that Mutilators are better than any form of Space Marine Scouts. That's just the dumbest thing I've about read on this site outside of people actually defending them as a unit.

**Dantes_Baals**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.

Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.

Scouts aren't bad anymore...

Without chapter tactics and/or a LSS (why the feth to BA still not have this?)to ferry them around the non-sniper kind are actually pretty bad. Their online use is for locator beacons or messing with the opponents infiltrators.

They're errata'd to have the WS4. And BS4 for Shotgun lovers. All you really need is the furious charge at that point. They're an easily spammed OS unit and would cost the same as a Mutilator with none of the drawbacks.

Drawbacks like flesh metal or drawbacks like being a 65 point distraction fexes that deepstrikes?

OS doesn't mean jack if they can't reach the objective before they're smoked. MSU is fine unless you blow over to a stiff breeze. Furious charge? With shotgun scouts? Seriously?

Drawbacks being that they suffer more per wound lost, don't make as much use of cover, have slow and purposeful so they can't even be an effective distraction, and still don't have OS.

You can't seriously be suggesting that Mutilators are better than any form of Space Marine Scouts. That's just the dumbest thing I've about read on this site outside of people actually defending them as a unit.

I'm not saying that they're better. I'm not saying that they're worse either. Both have their uses, but really the best thing scouts have going for them is obsec, infultrate and the fact that they aren't tactical marines. Unless you run in a highly competitive meta, Mutilators can work. I've done so a few rimes. The only problem is the slots they compete for. That's where the scouts come out way ahead.

Having said that, I suggest you try out footslogging MSU scouts from objective to objective. Without the Storm they are more or less reduced to camping or hoping to come in on a board edge with ruins to hide in.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Mutilators are one man units. I'd kill for a one man unit in the BA codex. You are going for target saturation with them, not expecting them to carry you.

Just think. If we could field 50 units of single marines, Eldar wouldn't be able to table BA or CSM without trying hard.

Scouts aren't bad anymore...

Without chapter tactics and/or a LSS (why the feth to BA still not have this?)to ferry them around the non-sniper kind are actually pretty bad. Their online use is for locator beacons or messing with the opponents infiltrators.

They're errata'd to have the WS4. And BS4 for Shotgun lovers. All you really need is the furious charge at that point. They're an easily spammed OS unit and would cost the same as a Mutilator with none of the drawbacks.

Drawbacks like flesh metal or drawbacks like being a 65 point distraction fexes that deepstrikes?

OS doesn't mean jack if they can't reach the objective before they're smoked. MSU is fine unless you blow over to a stiff breeze. Furious charge? With shotgun scouts? Seriously?

Drawbacks being that they suffer more per wound lost, don't make as much use of cover, have slow and purposeful so they can't even be an effective distraction, and still don't have OS.

You can't seriously be suggesting that Mutilators are better than any form of Space Marine Scouts. That's just the dumbest thing I've about read on this site outside of people actually defending them as a unit.

I'm not saying that they're better. I'm not saying that they're worse either. Both have their uses, but really the best thing scouts have going for them is obsec, infultrate and the fact that they aren't tactical marines. Unless you run in a highly competitive meta, Mutilators can work. I've done so a few rimes. The only problem is the slots they compete for. That's where the scouts come out way ahead.

Having said that, I suggest you try out footslogging MSU scouts from objective to objective. Without the Storm they are more or less reduced to camping or hoping to come in on a board edge with ruins to hide in.

Saying they work in a non-competitive environment is a non-argument and essentially you agreeing with me.

And yes I've footslogged Scouts before. If I think I can save points based off other threats in my army I'll sometimes do so. They're mostly a unit to either stick on an objective or harass weak units.

**Dantes_Baals**

Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.

And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.

And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.

Your last statement makes no sense. If you're not talking about a unit's or upgrade's viability in a cutthroat environment, there's nothing to discuss, and therefore everyone's a winner and a special snowflake and everything is cool and viable!

Or you can look at the math and use basic math. As someone that uses Necrons and Biker variants of Space Marines I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. As someone that also uses Skitarii and CSM, I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. They're one of the best examples of what is junk in this game and how you can measure it.

**Dantes_Baals**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.

And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.

Your last statement makes no sense. If you're not talking about a unit's or upgrade's viability in a cutthroat environment, there's nothing to discuss, and therefore everyone's a winner and a special snowflake and everything is cool and viable!

Or you can look at the math and use basic math. As someone that uses Necrons and Biker variants of Space Marines I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. As someone that also uses Skitarii and CSM, I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. They're one of the best examples of what is junk in this game and how you can measure it.

They did laugh. And they stopped when I tarpitted lychguard for 3 turns in one game and crunched a stalker and a ghost ark in the other. So you're saying "if it can't win tournaments, it isn't worth taking, right "? Well well opinions etc etc, but if you are frustrated with the current state of 40k I can kind of see why. Of this is actually your idea of fun we aren't really playing the same game anyway so this whole argument has been moot. If you have all these armies why don't you just save the CSM for LGS games, instead of banging your head against a rock with them against Demicompany/Skyhammer and Scat bikes at tournies? Unless your whole meta is like that. In which case... im sorry.

Honestly man I think most CSM players have their "Enjoy/Whine" switch permanently stuck on whine.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.

And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.

Your last statement makes no sense. If you're not talking about a unit's or upgrade's viability in a cutthroat environment, there's nothing to discuss, and therefore everyone's a winner and a special snowflake and everything is cool and viable!

Or you can look at the math and use basic math. As someone that uses Necrons and Biker variants of Space Marines I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. As someone that also uses Skitarii and CSM, I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. They're one of the best examples of what is junk in this game and how you can measure it.

They did laugh. And they stopped when I tarpitted lychguard for 3 turns in one game and crunched a stalker and a ghost ark in the other. So you're saying "if it can't win tournaments, it isn't worth taking, right "? Well well opinions etc etc, but if you are frustrated with the current state of 40k I can kind of see why. Of this is actually your idea of fun we aren't really playing the same game anyway so this whole argument has been moot. If you have all these armies why don't you just save the CSM for LGS games, instead of banging your head against a rock with them against Demicompany/Skyhammer and Scat bikes at tournies? Unless your whole meta is like that. In which case... im sorry.

Honestly man I think most CSM players have their "Enjoy/Whine" switch permanently stuck on whine.

If Lychgaurd were stuck for three turns, that was because of poor rolling, not because of Mutilator performance (especially with Scythe Guard). Your opponent is also garbage for a Ghost Ark getting caught. I can understand Stalker, but the Ark getting caught shows someone that isn't good at the game.

So Mutilators do one thing against a bad opponent and you think you have proof of them getting the job done? This is why you don't see CSM players topping anywhere.

**ZebioLizard2**

I have to agree with that, how do you let a Ghost Ark get caught by a Mutilator?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Especially when you camp 10 Warriors in it, fire 30 shots at the Mutilator, and charge if you're THAT afraid.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
[ Raptor Talon full of warp talons for Night Lords.

An Army of Raptors does not the Night Lords Legion make.

**Roknar**

Wouldn't the night lords actually be liable to kill the warp talons? They sound like they're just one bad day away from becoming possessed.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Warp Talons are already Daemons, so I dont think Possession would affect them.

**Dantes_Baals**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I have to agree with that, how do you let a Ghost Ark get caught by a Mutilator?

Deep struck with 2 Mutilators next to an ark that was blocked in by Rhinos on one side and had to land in difficult. Immobilized itself when it tried to land. The Warriors shot at the Rhinos because they were down to a HP a piece with melta guns CSMs in melta range inside.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Funny, because 2 out of the 3 times I ran them, it was against Reclaimation/Canoptek bullshittery. The 3 was against ravenwing. I would consider those competitive and I took all 3 by a pretty wide margin. They weren't MVP by a long shot, but I definitely don't regret bringing them.

And if you think units have to be able to hang with cutthroat tournament armies to be viable, you should probably broaden your horizons my friend.

Your last statement makes no sense. If you're not talking about a unit's or upgrade's viability in a cutthroat environment, there's nothing to discuss, and therefore everyone's a winner and a special snowflake and everything is cool and viable!

Or you can look at the math and use basic math. As someone that uses Necrons and Biker variants of Space Marines I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. As someone that also uses Skitarii and CSM, I would laugh at you bringing Mutilators. They're one of the best examples of what is junk in this game and how you can measure it.

They did laugh. And they stopped when I tarpitted lychguard for 3 turns in one game and crunched a stalker and a ghost ark in the other. So you're saying "if it can't win tournaments, it isn't worth taking, right "? Well well opinions etc etc, but if you are frustrated with the current state of 40k I can kind of see why. Of this is actually your idea of fun we aren't really playing the same game anyway so this whole argument has been moot. If you have all these armies why don't you just save the CSM for LGS games, instead of banging your head against a rock with them against Demicompany/Skyhammer and Scat bikes at tournies? Unless your whole meta is like that. In which case... im sorry.

Honestly man I think most CSM players have their "Enjoy/Whine" switch permanently stuck on whine.

If Lychgaurd were stuck for three turns, that was because of poor rolling, not because of Mutilator performance (especially with Scythe Guard). Your opponent is also garbage for a Ghost Ark getting caught. I can understand Stalker, but the Ark getting caught shows someone that isn't good at the game.

So Mutilators do one thing against a bad opponent and you think you have proof of them getting the job done? This is why you don't see CSM players topping anywhere.

He took sword and board guard. Which made sense because I was running Kabal, all with telepathy, 2 turkeys and a crap-ton of plasma guns on the field.

I love it when people assume so much. It makes their arguments that much weaker. One last time , chief. I'm not saying they're a great unit. I'm definitely not saying they're a very good choice (compared to their competitiors). All I'm saying is that they have a purpose, and can work if played properly. Had I not cornered him with the melta/rhinos, he would have gotten away for sure. And 2 T5 2W models with a 2+ save aren't that easy for warriors to delete.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I have to agree with that, how do you let a Ghost Ark get caught by a Mutilator?

Deep struck with 2 Mutilators next to an ark that was blocked in by Rhinos on one side and had to land in difficult. Immobilized itself when it tried to land. The Warriors shot at the Rhinos because they were down to a HP a piece with melta guns CSMs in melta range inside.

Now the Ark was blocked in by Rhinos and the guy decided to shoot at the Rhinos, keeping the Melta Marines safe, instead of shooting at the Mutilator when the Ghost Ark can just jink the Melta shots away?

Don't you see something wrong here? Like a REALLY bad player getting into the most unrealistic scenarios?

**Dantes_Baals**

Or he blows his jink, gets his ark blown up anyway and his warriors ground to bits by the Mutilators? And he was trying to shave the last HP off of the rhino so the Warriors could double tap the 6 man squad inside (was a 10 man that took casualties ). So either try and leave through difficult, immobilize on a 1, or have really, really bad gak happen if he fails any one of 4, 4 up jink saves.

Look man, try to downplay it however you want. By now I'm pretty sure you're trying to justify your opinion (why? It's an opinion ffs) that they are totally worthless. It was a game of toy soldiers that took place a while back. I'm gonna take the high road here and agree to disagree on their capabilities.

**Insectum7**

This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Or he blows his jink, gets his ark blown up anyway and his warriors ground to bits by the Mutilators? And he was trying to shave the last HP off of the rhino so the Warriors could double tap the 6 man squad inside (was a 10 man that took casualties ). So either try and leave through difficult, immobilize on a 1, or have really, really bad gak happen if he fails any one of 4, 4 up jink saves.

Look man, try to downplay it however you want. By now I'm pretty sure you're trying to justify your opinion (why? It's an opinion ffs) that they are totally worthless. It was a game of toy soldiers that took place a while back. I'm gonna take the high road here and agree to disagree on their capabilities.

It isn't that hard.
1. One set of of Arrays targets a Rhino. The Warriors shoot at the Mutilator. The other array targets either the other Rhino or the Mutilator.
2. The Warriors charge the Mutilator thanks to Relentless, and a Mutilator doesn't even have good odds of killing one.
3. Jink is fine for the most part as you have to hit then Penetrate and THEN fail the Jink. Because Melta REALLY isn't that dangerous and therefore risking a failed Jink is better, and therefore your opponent was bad and you should feel bad as using it as part of the pathetic defense that is being used for the Mutilators.

**Unit1126PLL**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Or he blows his jink, gets his ark blown up anyway and his warriors ground to bits by the Mutilators? And he was trying to shave the last HP off of the rhino so the Warriors could double tap the 6 man squad inside (was a 10 man that took casualties ). So either try and leave through difficult, immobilize on a 1, or have really, really bad gak happen if he fails any one of 4, 4 up jink saves.

Look man, try to downplay it however you want. By now I'm pretty sure you're trying to justify your opinion (why? It's an opinion ffs) that they are totally worthless. It was a game of toy soldiers that took place a while back. I'm gonna take the high road here and agree to disagree on their capabilities.

It isn't that hard.
1. One set of of Arrays targets a Rhino. The Warriors shoot at the Mutilator. The other array targets either the other Rhino or the Mutilator.
2. The Warriors charge the Mutilator thanks to Relentless, and a Mutilator doesn't even have good odds of killing one.
3. Jink is fine for the most part as you have to hit then Penetrate and THEN fail the Jink. Because Melta REALLY isn't that dangerous and therefore risking a failed Jink is better, and therefore your opponent was bad and you should feel bad as using it as part of the pathetic defense that is being used for the Mutilators.

This post is awful. Honestly, how a Marine with two powerfist attacks has a bad chance of killing one Warrior (who might only have a 6+ save against it!) is a bad assumption. Telling one player that they are bad and another to feel bad just because the facts of the game are against your opinion is sickening. Whatever math-hammer you play, this happened and Mutilators did something cool. Just admit that your opinion is valid in most environments and his opinion is valid in others and don't be such a dick about it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Or he blows his jink, gets his ark blown up anyway and his warriors ground to bits by the Mutilators? And he was trying to shave the last HP off of the rhino so the Warriors could double tap the 6 man squad inside (was a 10 man that took casualties ). So either try and leave through difficult, immobilize on a 1, or have really, really bad gak happen if he fails any one of 4, 4 up jink saves.

Look man, try to downplay it however you want. By now I'm pretty sure you're trying to justify your opinion (why? It's an opinion ffs) that they are totally worthless. It was a game of toy soldiers that took place a while back. I'm gonna take the high road here and agree to disagree on their capabilities.

It isn't that hard.
1. One set of of Arrays targets a Rhino. The Warriors shoot at the Mutilator. The other array targets either the other Rhino or the Mutilator.
2. The Warriors charge the Mutilator thanks to Relentless, and a Mutilator doesn't even have good odds of killing one.
3. Jink is fine for the most part as you have to hit then Penetrate and THEN fail the Jink. Because Melta REALLY isn't that dangerous and therefore risking a failed Jink is better, and therefore your opponent was bad and you should feel bad as using it as part of the pathetic defense that is being used for the Mutilators.

This post is awful. Honestly, how a Marine with two powerfist attacks has a bad chance of killing one Warrior (who might only have a 6+ save against it!) is a bad assumption. Telling one player that they are bad and another to feel bad just because the facts of the game are against your opinion is sickening. Whatever math-hammer you play, this happened and Mutilators did something cool. Just admit that your opinion is valid in most environments and his opinion is valid in others and don't be such a dick about it.

1. The Mutilator strikes last in this situation you create. Based off that, we can assume that he is likely dead after the Warriors shooting and swinging.
2. The Warrior will get a 5++ because of the Decurion.

It is a dick move to spread misinformation. Mutilators are garbage and until that is fixed we need to encourage people not to buy them and trying to fit them into lists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously, the Mutilator will kill on average less than 1 Warrior. Did you even bother doing the math on that?

**ZebioLizard2**

Insectum7 wrote:
This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.

The thing is that nearly everything can happen, though between the stomps and blades that usually won't be tying up a wraithknight too long, barring bad rolls.

Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done, but just how bad a play did you make that it DID happen.

A IG Sarge could blow up Land Raiders with melta bombs, still doesn't make it a likely event or makes them epic tank hunters!

**koooaei**

Slayer-Fan123 just has Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) and Preferred Enemy (Mutlators).

Statistically, 10 warriors will deal around 0.75 wounds to a mutilator with rapid fire. So, it's not a given they'd even wound him. The most reliable thing for them is indeed just try to roll away behind difterrain hoping for him to fail dt tests and charges with a -2 modifier. Or concentrate fire on him risking to not do enough to melta rhinos.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

This post is awful. Honestly, how a Marine with two powerfist attacks has a bad chance of killing one Warrior (who might only have a 6+ save against it!) is a bad assumption.

3 attacks for 2 ccw, also fear - vs ld10 though, but all might happen. Even if 10 warriors charge a mutilator, it's still around 0.55 wounds from an ideal necron charge which is also a gamble. And in return he's gona inflict 1.25 wounds with chain fists which would get downgraded to around 0.76 with decurion and lord nearby, 0.83 with decurion and no lord nearby and 1.04 without decurion.

Not terrible odds for a 61 pt model. The main difficulty is to arrive and ds though.

**Unit1126PLL**

Most of the necron players (2/3) in my area don't run Decurion because they think it is unfun.

Never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me!

**Insectum7**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.
The thing is that nearly everything can happen, though between the stomps and blades that usually won't be tying up a wraithknight too long, barring bad rolls.

Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done, but just how bad a play did you make that it DID happen.

What bad play did I make? Ha! They were MY Tactical marines!

Statisticshammer is great and all, but it's hard to put values on positioning, reserves, timing and context.

**ZebioLizard2**

Insectum7 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
This reminds me of a situation where I had Tactical marines tarpit a Wraithknight. Internet says "Hurr, can't be done!" Experience says it happens, and it's totally legit.
The thing is that nearly everything can happen, though between the stomps and blades that usually won't be tying up a wraithknight too long, barring bad rolls.

Nobody is saying it CAN'T be done, but just how bad a play did you make that it DID happen.

What bad play did I make? Ha! They were MY Tactical marines!

Statisticshammer is great and all, but it's hard to put values on positioning, reserves, timing and context.

Nah not you, your opponent did in that case (Was referring to the mutilator/ghost ark conundrum), and it's funny that I'm actually defending mathhammer because I'm not too fond of it either, but some things are just so unlikely given things, I mean 5 grots could potentially kill 10 GK paladins.. But really it's just so unlikely to do so.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Most of the necron players (2/3) in my area don't run Decurion because they think it is unfun.

Never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me!

I assume people are playing their best and not being God awful fluff bunnies. You're not helping your case at all.

**Unit1126PLL**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Most of the necron players (2/3) in my area don't run Decurion because they think it is unfun.

Never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me!

I assume people are playing their best and not being God awful fluff bunnies. You're not helping your case at all.

Why are fluff bunnies awful? And do I have a case? I'm just having a discussion.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Most of the necron players (2/3) in my area don't run Decurion because they think it is unfun.

Never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me!

I assume people are playing their best and not being God awful fluff bunnies. You're not helping your case at all.

Why are fluff bunnies awful? And do I have a case? I'm just having a discussion.

They make discussions terrible. They can't grasp good playing and ultimately do the good old "if you don't like the list don't play it" garbage. It helps nobody.

Also I mistook you for Dantes_Baal or whatever.