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Marine players wouldn't riot over losing ATSKNF. I have no clue where you get that idea from. I forget it exists half the time. It it made Marines cheaper, I say go for it.

You're missing a key point. In this example, you would lose ATSKNF AND a leadership point. You would then be charged points to get them back. It would make your troops objectively worse AND more expensive at the same time ...

EDIT:

They specifically want ATSKNF, which is not something they should just get for being Marines.

No one has said that. Your comment is also a but silly IMO considering other Marines get it "just for being Marines" lol

That said, personally, no, I actually don't want it. I always felt like the fact that CSM got higher Leadership but Loyalists got ATSKNF was actually kind of fluffy. Your response in this particular instance is typical of the counter arguments CSM players often see.

CSM player:
We lost our high LD and have to pay to get it back. That's not cool.

Counter Argument:
"You just just want ATSKNF. You can't have it, that's silly."

CSM player:
"We would like our Legion rules back (or some real semblance of them)"

Counter:
"You just want Chapter Tactics! You can't have them!"

CSM Player:
"I wish we some kind of drop pod (or some similar mechanic) in the main codex"

Counter:
"Why do you need that!? Just play Forgeworld!"

CSM Player:
"Guys, I got some Forgeworld stuff. Mind if I use it?"

Counter:
"Forgeworld is OP! We don't allow it!"

Notice how in every instance the main complaint is not inly ignored, but actually also taken out of context AND deliberately exaggerated or subtly altered from what the real complaint was. These are all real world examples that have happened time and time again on this board. Ugh ...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


So how do you reflect that on the tabletop? Add spikes? Have a unit of possessed and some daemons? Have a possessed vehicle?

All of these are already possible. I guess my question is that they want chaos to not be 'spiky marines' but fundamentally, that's all they are. 'Spiky marines' is basically what you describe - warped flesh, psychic powers, and daemons are all already on the tabletop, arguably in spades. You can make the dead walk with Typhus, you can have your sorcerers enact dark rituals that pull Daemons from the warp and onto the battlefield...

what, precisely, is missing from this image?

First off, wow. We seem to have a VERY different idea of what a spikey marine is. I could make another long post about what's missing but I think instead I'll just refer to 30k.

Take a look at red butchers vs grave wardens. Different profiles, different costs, different weapon options, unique rules and that's not even considering the overarching legion rules and rites of war. They play and most importantly feel very differently And it's not just those two units that are very different from each other.

Here you have all these different legions of space marines, none of which are physically all that corrupted or using warp fuelled powers. And yet they have such massively different rules and units. Despite being essentially the same. Rules that work more or less well mechanically but also convey the spirit of those legions quite well. Fast forward to 40k and the differences between marines and chaos marines only becomes much greater and the same goes for differences between legions/warbands. Everything becomes enhanced.

Where marines get get black knights vs thunderwolf cavalry, or deathwing knights vs centurions, we get.... rage or +1T ? Come on, is that the best we can do? Seriously? It might not be the perfect comparison but I hope you get my point.
Daemons got their own unique psychic powers, marines get them. Daemons, tau and hell, even nids all got new units. We got a reprint of kharn that is functionally exactly the same. I suppose we got knights, even though they aren't a csm unit per se. And yet, they are a pale shadow of the imperial knights who get formations and relics and can be fielded on their own. It wouldn't be csm/heretics unless it was half assed after all. But I know they CAN do it, they just don't for god knows what reason.

My point is that the base codex is bland as hell and is outdated in terms of points and to a certain degree even rules. Changing unit roles sure adds flavour in the age of formations. Even though that particular rule works better than formations for cult legions imho.
Supplements like TH can't fix those issues. They can only apply a band aid. This one happens to be a pretty one for the most part, but it's still just a band aid. The base dex is as generic as generic gets, but that's not what people want. We (read I) want the various legions to have some identity beyond just a different paintjob. It doesn't have to be legions either. I'm perfectly fine with generic Cult codices like the KDK. But then change them to include their respective legions. The Bloodtithe system is awesome for example and applies to all khorne worshippers equally as far as I'm concerned. And don't just copy paste... They should have at least added berzerkers on juggernaughts or dreadclaws.

THEN you can add supplements with formations and specific relics and what have you. Don't get me wrong though, I like Traitors hate despite some of it's glaring issues. It's just not what CSM need and what people want.

TremendousZ wrote:
So after the first weekend seems like the support for Traitor's Hate is lackluster at best. I actually like it, and think several new mechanics have been overlooked. I think CSM got what they were asking for in a lot of ways, and CSM players need to realize your never getting 3.5 codex level power again. Lets just remember where we came from with the last CSM codex.

So for no additional points in this book we got: Free Universal Veterans of the Long War, ObSec, Free Boon Roll per turn no combat required, and you can roll 2 boons and pick one or both...... That's just the new decurion. You have cultists squads that can revive to outflank 50% of the time, you can charge from deepstrike, fire twice with oblits per turn, attack twice with berserkers.....I'm not seeing the downside here.

A common complaint CSM players voice, we don't get free rhinos/vehicles/stuff. Well, looks like we have a free direct advantage vs imperium with VotLW, more chances for awesome character boosts, and the occasional Daemon Princes. Seems okay to me, feels pretty chaosy. More boon rolls, and a little safety from spawnhood.

Now the overlooked. Veterans of the Legions. By moving Cult CSM troops out of required or elite slots, you can field your 'legion' while still getting the benefits of every other formation. Want to play Deathguard? Slap some MoN on the Chaos Warband and add the VotL. Chances are your bringing whats in the warband anyways. Don't like the marine tax? (hate that expression by the way) Bring the Lost and the Damned....and turn them all into zombies while your at it with Typhus.

I understand that many of you are frustrated that this book did not catapult CSM to the top tier of competition. However, isn't some progress in the right direction a good thing?

If your a skeptic, please, dust off your CSM and play a few games. I'd love to hear some real experiences, not just armchair hate. If your on the fence, I say Traitor's Hate is a good read, and great upgrade to any CSM army.

Sidenote: I play Black Legion, so free VotLW is very nice and helpful for me.

A good player has the ability to evaluate a codex without needing to play a dozen games. Remember the talk about wraithknights and scat bikes when the eldar codex came out, or the gladius hype when codex SM came out, turns out that its easy to evaluate good units/rules when you understand the rules of the game. Sorry but respawning cultits, twice shooting termies or extra round of attacks from khorne bezerkers are not game winning. If you want to celebrate a codex that takes a third rate army to second rate at best, have at it. And stop bringing up 3.5 like anybody in the world thinks or expects us to go back to the glory days. I would take some legion rules and points adjustments, i got niether and my chaos army which i have invested thousands of dollars in, will continue to sit on my shelf.

Taking a sorc cabal with a KDK formation or chaos demons and no actual chaos marines is not my idea of a chaos space marine army.

Tycho wrote:

Marine players wouldn't riot over losing ATSKNF. I have no clue where you get that idea from. I forget it exists half the time. It it made Marines cheaper, I say go for it.

You're missing a key point. In this example, you would lose ATSKNF AND a leadership point. You would then be charged points to get them back. It would make your troops objectively worse AND more expensive at the same time ...

EDIT:

They specifically want ATSKNF, which is not something they should just get for being Marines.

No one has said that. Your comment is also a but silly IMO considering other Marines get it "just for being Marines" lol

That said, personally, no, I actually don't want it. I always felt like the fact that CSM got higher Leadership but Loyalists got ATSKNF was actually kind of fluffy. Your response in this particular instance is typical of the counter arguments CSM players often see.

CSM player:
We lost our high LD and have to pay to get it back. That's not cool.

Counter Argument:
"You just just want ATSKNF. You can't have it, that's silly."

CSM player:
"We would like our Legion rules back (or some real semblance of them)"

Counter:
"You just want Chapter Tactics! You can't have them!"

CSM Player:
"I wish we some kind of drop pod (or some similar mechanic) in the main codex"

Counter:
"Why do you need that!? Just play Forgeworld!"

CSM Player:
"Guys, I got some Forgeworld stuff. Mind if I use it?"

Counter:
"Forgeworld is OP! We don't allow it!"

Notice how in every instance the main complaint is not inly ignored, but actually also taken out of context AND deliberately exaggerated or subtly altered from what the real complaint was. These are all real world examples that have happened time and time again on this board. Ugh ...

The layout of the codex is fine. Outside of the Black Legion, how organized are the CSMs? Not very well. Even Iron Warriors aren't so terribly well organized, so having that much to work with makes sense. CSMs are much more cowardly than the Loyalist counterparts, but when they stop being cowards and win a challenge, sometimes the Gods reward them. Ergo, the lower LD but Boon mechanic makes sense.

What really needs to be fixed is point costs and such, and for different fixes in the main rule book. Also nobody outside of Jancoran thinks FW stuff is OP in this modern day and age.

Also I wouldn't care about having to deal with LD 7/8 on its own because LD is one of the least important stats in the game due to how you can work around it. That's why Freakshow lists won't ever be that big of a thing. If I got 1-2 points off my Bikers for -1 LD and/or losing ATSKNF, I'd be all over it.

The layout of the codex is fine. Outside of the Black Legion, how organized are the CSMs? Not very well. Even Iron Warriors aren't so terribly well organized, so having that much to work with makes sense. CSMs are much more cowardly than the Loyalist counterparts, but when they stop being cowards and win a challenge, sometimes the Gods reward them. Ergo, the lower LD but Boon mechanic makes sense.

Cowardly? All of them? A blanket statement which is patently false. There are numerous examples of CSM being every bit as courageous as the loyalist counterparts (albeit while enacting evil plans).

The boon mechanic is silly and terrible. Period. KDK handles this MUCH better. For example, becoming a Demon Prince should NEVER EVER make you WORSE than you were before you became one. Yet they have set it up so that is often what happens when you become a DP off the boon table. It's too much meaningless rolling for incredibly little result the rest of the time. Too much book keeping.

What really needs to be fixed is point costs and such, and for different fixes in the main rule book. Also nobody outside of Jancoran thinks FW stuff is OP in this modern day and age.

Agreed on all points. The FW thing is something I've seen happen specifically when CSM players try to improve by using FW. I personally am not saying FW is OP. It is not. It's just a weird thing I've seen happen.

I DO think that in addition to points cost though, they need to rethink close to half (if not more) of the units in the book. They are just that poorly done. Despite the main book being a 6th ed codex, it is still running off 5thed (and in some cases 4thed) mechanics that no longer function. I was really hoping TH would help mitigate that, but it really didn't. It came close in a few instances, but not close enough and only with a few units.

Also I wouldn't care about having to deal with LD 7/8 on its own because LD is one of the least important stats in the game due to how you can work around it. That's why Freakshow lists won't ever be that big of a thing. If I got 1-2 points off my Bikers for -1 LD and/or losing ATSKNF, I'd be all over it.

That's fair enough, but in actual practice, many CSM players have found that the extra LD point actually makes a very real difference. We don't really have that many options for keeping guys from running away. Take a 60pt icon? Sure! Oh crap ... got sniped out turn 1 ... lol

It's depressing reading the constant complaining from other CSM players. People should probably come to terms with the fact their own faction will never be exactly as they want them to be, and even if they got what they wanted there will be lots of other players who want more, or wanted different things to begin with.

Legion specific rules would be awesome, but from what I recall of the 3.5 codex you can make fluffier legion lists now than you could back then. Word Bearers, Night Lords, Black Legion and Iron Warriors all seem like they're in a better place than they were. Not so much with Alpha Legion, but the sheer choice 40k offers to list building now provides the player with more ways to realise a fluffy vision of their own army on the tabletop.

Stuff like cult terminators, raptors, havocs etc. would be cool, but model and paint appropriately marked units and you're most of the way there. For all we know these units could be right around the corner... and their rules could be terrible. So we'd get another 5-10 years of whining on the forums. Life is too short and nothing about this game really warrants the vitriol we see on here

The Chaos Legions are as organised as you need them to be. Like Loyalists, a 40k army can represent a small raid, a reasonable contingent, or the tip of a colossal spear striking through a sector. Storm of Iron comes to mind.

So my questions:

Does this book give you juicy artefacts that are better than the horrendous ones?

Does this book make the ridiculous boons of chaos optional?

Does this book add chapter tactics?

Does it make reaching combat more plausible?

Does it require me to buy lots of needless garbage units they're having trouble selling to get some remotely half decent units attached?

Can my warpsmith/apostle take a bike or wings/jump pack?

Is this book free? Because I'm sick of having to buy £30 supplements that improve little to nothing

Some of these are rhetorical. Kudos on fixing psychic powers though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
It's depressing reading the constant complaining from other CSM players. People should probably come to terms with the fact their own faction will never be exactly as they want them to be, and even if they got what they wanted there will be lots of other players who want more, or wanted different things to begin with.

Actually we have, but here's the ultimate issue. Money

We have money. GW wants our money. We want a product we will happily trade our funds with.
GW make a product they presumably believe will help initiate this trade, containing rules, artwork, fluff.
X% of the players are happy with this and initiate the trade. Y% players are unhappy and keep their cash.

Now I can't speak of the numbers involved, just my own personal experience, but I think I've had.... 2? 3? Codices after 3.5 that have contained less and less. The good things they have contained have been vile to play with, like Lash of Submission and the Helldrake, which soon become crutches. All the while I've paid money for a poor product. Then Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter, which didn't fix the issues. Then you add in the separation of Daemons and KDK, and how Daemons had their options shoe-horned into a fantasy dynamic (chariots). It has come to the point now where I cannot write a list. I open the book, start to pen something down, and become angry. I look at the HQs and just shelve the book. It's not about power (I'm a nid player) but a cancer in the fundamentals. When the marines got their latest dex, with rules for chapter tactics, I quit 40K fully until 2-3 months ago.

In the time that I'd sat out, I'd picked up X-Wing, Armada, Heroclix, Flames of War, Battletech, Batman Miniature Game, Memoir 44, Zombicide, and lord knows what else. I love GW, and through them I have met a lot of friends, but if this is the quality we continue to get, I have no interest in anything beyond the board games (Overkill, Silver Tower, etc).

Well the typical arguments seem to come to play, those who think Chaos should just suck it up continue to believe it, Chaos players who have been spurned continue to know that GW doesn't really care, at least not here anyways.

Even Chaos in AoS is getting split into different factions for those who worship the god, hopefully if 8th drops they know that people really, really want to have their options.

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:


Actually we have, but here's the ultimate issue. Money

We have money. GW wants our money. We want a product we will happily trade our funds with.
GW make a product they presumably believe will help initiate this trade, containing rules, artwork, fluff.
X% of the players are happy with this and initiate the trade. Y% players are unhappy and keep their cash.

Now I can't speak of the numbers involved, just my own personal experience, but I think I've had.... 2? 3? Codices after 3.5 that have contained less and less. The good things they have contained have been vile to play with, like Lash of Submission and the Helldrake, which soon become crutches. All the while I've paid money for a poor product. Then Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter, which didn't fix the issues. Then you add in the separation of Daemons and KDK, and how Daemons had their options shoe-horned into a fantasy dynamic (chariots). It has come to the point now where I cannot write a list. I open the book, start to pen something down, and become angry. I look at the HQs and just shelve the book. It's not about power (I'm a nid player) but a cancer in the fundamentals. When the marines got their latest dex, with rules for chapter tactics, I quit 40K fully until 2-3 months ago.

In the time that I'd sat out, I'd picked up X-Wing, Armada, Heroclix, Flames of War, Battletech, Batman Miniature Game, Memoir 44, Zombicide, and lord knows what else. I love GW, and through them I have met a lot of friends, but if this is the quality we continue to get, I have no interest in anything beyond the board games (Overkill, Silver Tower, etc).

You make fair points, but I'd suggest the problem isn't with CSM (or nids, orks, IG, DE) but the more powerful codexes like eldar and tau, the battle brothers shenanigans imperial factions can do, the gladius strike force and some of the tricks daemons can do (in an otherwise well written codex). If you take units like CSM squads, tactical marines, ork boyz, termagants and IG platoons as the basic power level other units should be balanced against, I think the problem is the more powerful elements in the game that should be toned down. The CSM codex has some weak units like most codexes, but generally I see the power level as appropriate to the game.

Tycho wrote:

The layout of the codex is fine. Outside of the Black Legion, how organized are the CSMs? Not very well. Even Iron Warriors aren't so terribly well organized, so having that much to work with makes sense. CSMs are much more cowardly than the Loyalist counterparts, but when they stop being cowards and win a challenge, sometimes the Gods reward them. Ergo, the lower LD but Boon mechanic makes sense.

Cowardly? All of them? A blanket statement which is patently false. There are numerous examples of CSM being every bit as courageous as the loyalist counterparts (albeit while enacting evil plans).

The boon mechanic is silly and terrible. Period. KDK handles this MUCH better. For example, becoming a Demon Prince should NEVER EVER make you WORSE than you were before you became one. Yet they have set it up so that is often what happens when you become a DP off the boon table. It's too much meaningless rolling for incredibly little result the rest of the time. Too much book keeping.

What really needs to be fixed is point costs and such, and for different fixes in the main rule book. Also nobody outside of Jancoran thinks FW stuff is OP in this modern day and age.

Agreed on all points. The FW thing is something I've seen happen specifically when CSM players try to improve by using FW. I personally am not saying FW is OP. It is not. It's just a weird thing I've seen happen.

I DO think that in addition to points cost though, they need to rethink close to half (if not more) of the units in the book. They are just that poorly done. Despite the main book being a 6th ed codex, it is still running off 5thed (and in some cases 4thed) mechanics that no longer function. I was really hoping TH would help mitigate that, but it really didn't. It came close in a few instances, but not close enough and only with a few units.

Also I wouldn't care about having to deal with LD 7/8 on its own because LD is one of the least important stats in the game due to how you can work around it. That's why Freakshow lists won't ever be that big of a thing. If I got 1-2 points off my Bikers for -1 LD and/or losing ATSKNF, I'd be all over it.

That's fair enough, but in actual practice, many CSM players have found that the extra LD point actually makes a very real difference. We don't really have that many options for keeping guys from running away. Take a 60pt icon? Sure! Oh crap ... got sniped out turn 1 ... lol

1. It is a blanket statement and I stand by it. The Daemonkin acts different in that it is a single giant incursion of forces of Khorne and they get stronger depending on how much dies. That's why it works better for them. Now, if you wanted a similar mechanic there'd have to be Kins for each god, but that won't happen until GW releases different models for the greater daemons to shove in our mouths. In the meantime, I think it is perfectly fine OUTSIDE the Daemon Prince one. That's more the fault of not keeping equipment, which would alleviate any issues.
2. Absolutely some of them are poorly done. Mutilators need to be removed and those abilities be given to Obliterators, as they're random enough already and it would make them better in melee. Warp Talons would just work as 2-3 Raptors upgrading to become them for 10 or so points in a squad. Warpsmiths and Apostles still need steeds and other forms of mobility. Of course there's still a lot wrong with the codex but at least the supplement makes the issues not as terribad. I won't run a CAD ever again with them I'll say that much, and there's very few instances of me saying that (that bonus for Necrons is too good to pass up). Warpsmiths definitely get more mileage, and Apostles get a neat gimmick with Cultists. Really wouldn't take an Apostle outside that formation though to be honest, even if they had better mobility.
Regarding Cult Terminators, I do agree they should be a unit, but it is unlikely that anyone would take them as Termicide is still a thing (heh, the one thing they have better than Loyalists: Terminators).
3. The Icon is 35 points, making it worth almost 50 total to lose. Hence why it is better just to go for VotLW or use Plague Marines (who get their Special Weapons overall cheaper. Because.). Now, you're not just stuck to Plague Marines as 13 points of LD9 is basically as fine as Fearless.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:



You make fair points, but I'd suggest the problem isn't with CSM (or nids, orks, IG, DE) but the more powerful codexes like eldar and tau, the battle brothers shenanigans imperial factions can do, the gladius strike force and some of the tricks daemons can do (in an otherwise well written codex). If you take units like CSM squads, tactical marines, ork boyz, termagants and IG platoons as the basic power level other units should be balanced against, I think the problem is the more powerful elements in the game that should be toned down. The CSM codex has some weak units like most codexes, but generally I see the power level as appropriate to the game.

I think that's approaching the problem from the opposite end of myself. I don't think having a strong army and one that matches the fluff are mutually exclusive, but for me personally, I'd go for something thematic over something tough every time. Forced Challenges, people exploding into Daemon Princes for killing Cadian Sergeants, using their 10,000 years or so of veteran skills to go "grrr I don't like you" don't scream Chaos to me.

We'll go in circles about what CSM want or need... It's easier to say we don't want or need books that emphasize Khorne, Black Legion, or random renegades or any combination there in. GW has seemingly taken one of the most varied and flavorful factions and distilled it down to the most generic forms. It doesn't matter why GW's done what they've done, just that they've diminished the whole of 40k by diminishing the Imperium's greatest existential threat that is at the heart of the setting.

CSM are a lot of different things, more varied in flavor and capabilities than loyalist space marines. I can appreciate loyalist SM sell very well and thus get a lot of support it is just wholely insincere to tell us and expect us to represent the diversity of chaos with any of these books.

People who don't understand the CSM's problem say we just want the 3.5ed codex back, that it was a cheat and "broken." What they fail to grasp is that even before the 3.5 book CSM was more diverse and that the 3rd edition codex was for expedients and 3.5ed codex was still a compromise. Now the CSM book is even less. Before 3rd edition CSM was literally "use these thick books in addition to a loyalist codex." The 3.5 edition codex wasn't truly broken, the rules themselves were fair, they simply allowed a level of diversity and customization that gave chaos a great spectrum of scalable abilities to choose from.

Now whether you are a 10,000 year old former legionary or drop pod specializing loyalist turned renegade because your librarian started talking to "himself" your units are fundamentally indistinguishable.

I just wanted Berserkers to be viable.. specifically have a decent way to get into combat that doesn't involved being out in the open for a turn to die. I miss the old transport disembarkation rules :(

So in a nutshell what does this book contain? About half a dozen formations, new psychic powers? No artifacts or full rules rewrites without taking a large formation?

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:
So in a nutshell what does this book contain? About half a dozen formations, new psychic powers? No artifacts or full rules rewrites without taking a large formation?

Except the psychic isn´t that new.....
Yeah.

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:


I think that's approaching the problem from the opposite end of myself. I don't think having a strong army and one that matches the fluff are mutually exclusive, but for me personally, I'd go for something thematic over something tough every time. Forced Challenges, people exploding into Daemon Princes for killing Cadian Sergeants, using their 10,000 years or so of veteran skills to go "grrr I don't like you" don't scream Chaos to me.

I can see why forced challenges were conceived, even if it's too much of a one size fits all rule that works for lots of chaos characters but doesn't make much sense for others. I quite like dark apotheosis because it's bringing a fluff concept into the game, but maybe it would have been better if the prince retained all wargear. That way it wouldn't be a nuisance to lose your chaos lord if your prince now had terminator armour, a chainfist and lightning claw etc. Veteran skills (maybe buying USR's) would be cool but from a fluff perspective I suppose it depends how much you want your fluff to be represented on the table. In a narrative sense I imagine my basic chaos marine squads as every bit as awesome as astartes are depicted in the background, but on the table I can live with them being a cheap objective grabber

Observation? The Chaos Space Marine Codex with the 'Books of Chaos' legion section didn't have plague terminators with feel no pain.

I never understood people's reaction to this. The Chaos Space Marine book which included Plague Marines as a distinct unit to Nurgle Chaos Space Marines was the first one to do this.

If you want every unit in your army to be identical rules-wise, take the mark of nurgle on everything, and you are identical to the 3.5 edition death guard.

If you want an army comprised entirely of the 'better-than-this' plague marines, etc, then take Typhus and plague marines, or necrosius in a Purge detachment.

I still don't get why the Black Legion detachment isn't a 'legion' force. You can make a perfectly fluffy and effective list for any of the undivided legions - which, as a black legion detachment, is all it's trying to do.

It offers unlimited cultists for alpha legion daemons for word bearers, improved raptor forces for night lords, siege daemon engines for iron warriors, and frothing nutbars with axes for world eaters.

Correct, they did not have individual units representing cult options. It was just add a mark. But then they did add those units in with special rules and opened up a whole can of worms that comes with it. Personally, I want to see GW either give us all the rules for every unit to represent each cult legion properly, or remove the cult units all together and just make it how it was back in 3.5. I don't want this half assed thing that they've done, just give me all of it, or give me none of it.

As a Black Legion player, I do consider my legion well represented. I have unique artifacts, formations, characters etc. And although I may disagree on some of the ways they have gone as far as rules go, such as focusing on Chosen (I see chosen as more of an Alpha Legion thing) as a troop choice for some reason instead of Terminators. I can't really complain at all.

I'm mostly fighting for the other legions that are harder to represent. Iron Warriors, Night Lords are pretty well represented with Codex and the new supplement. Word Bearers and Alpha Legion are less so but It's doable with a combination of the Daemons Codex, Crimson Slaughter supplement and for Alpha Legion, probably just using Codex: Space Marines.

Cult Legions are the hardest to represent because in my opinion they need to share the same rules as the Cult Marines that are in the codex, but GW doesn't want to do that so for some reason only your troops can have sonic blasters. Definitely not your Chaos Lord because reasons.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:


I think that's approaching the problem from the opposite end of myself. I don't think having a strong army and one that matches the fluff are mutually exclusive, but for me personally, I'd go for something thematic over something tough every time. Forced Challenges, people exploding into Daemon Princes for killing Cadian Sergeants, using their 10,000 years or so of veteran skills to go "grrr I don't like you" don't scream Chaos to me.

I can see why forced challenges were conceived, even if it's too much of a one size fits all rule that works for lots of chaos characters but doesn't make much sense for others. I quite like dark apotheosis because it's bringing a fluff concept into the game, but maybe it would have been better if the prince retained all wargear. That way it wouldn't be a nuisance to lose your chaos lord if your prince now had terminator armour, a chainfist and lightning claw etc. Veteran skills (maybe buying USR's) would be cool but from a fluff perspective I suppose it depends how much you want your fluff to be represented on the table. In a narrative sense I imagine my basic chaos marine squads as every bit as awesome as astartes are depicted in the background, but on the table I can live with them being a cheap objective grabber

The whole forced challenges thing sounds more of how you'd expect Khorne's champions to act than the rest of Chaos champions. As a mechanic it wouldn't be too bad if the book were actually built around the concept a bit more, as it is it's an incomplete vision forced on a book with a very incomplete purpose. Its very much in line with the non-commital approach GW has had with Chaos.

While the flavor of CSM GW has given us is the least popular one, there could be something interesting in the whole idea of an army composed of warriors and warbands that are otherwise free agents coming together to form this army... Such an idea would be more complete by thinking of these aspiring champions as strong characters who through their force of will hold otherwise uncontrollable maniacs together. This portrayal however requires us to think of these champions as more distinctive individuals rather than the throwaway sergeants that they are. To be more thematically cohesive with that notion and ultimately the "Black Legion" style amalgamated force all the different types of champions subject to that forced challenge rule should be so customizable that they can be kitted out and upgraded more thoroughly for going after different type of characters they might want to challenge to a degree they actually stand a chance. In that way they would feel less like forced fodder and more like head hunting marauders out on their own personal mission of glory. In this way the actual squads aren't as important in and unto themselves but simply for being the appropriate delivery mechanism for these champions.

But nope. This is one reason why I think GW's greatest sin to Chaos isn't for choosing a bland concept but for not delivering on the one they presented in a meaningful way. 31 wonderful flavors of chaos marines, but we can only choose from vanilla, vanilla bean, french vanilla and strawberry (very very angry strawberry).

If you'll forgive me for being a conspriacy theorist (Clinton had Harambe assassinated because he was the wikileaks informant for the DNC) I found the forced challenges were there for one reason.

Challenge -> Roll on Table -> Sell a box of spawn or a Daemon Prince as they're now a possibility in every army.

Tie this with champions you're forced to take as the cost is included in the unit, and how you can barely make them survivable without spending stupid money for an invulnerable + tzeentch + a power weapon, and the troop tax just had another tax hidden in the mix. This was I think my biggest hatred in the whole book.

I really like the new rules for the boon chart. It was a bit of an afterthought before, but getting to roll on it twice every turn regardless of what else is happening is a cool ability, especially since we can disregard one of the rolls if we choose. It's not a game changer but I can see it being a fun element

I really, really wish they would scrap the boon chart and the challenge mechanic. I hate them both utterly.

If they're going to keep the chart, at least split it into 4 charts. 1 for each god that just has 6 results. If you have a mark, you gotta roll on the chart for your god. Just 1d6 and thats it. Keep them useful, and keep it simple. If you are undivided, just choose a chart to roll on.

Most importantly though, remove the results for becoming a spawn or daemon prince. Games should not be decided on a single roll of a die.

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:

Challenge -> Roll on Table -> Sell a box of spawn or a Daemon Prince as they're now a possibility in every army.

Tie this with champions you're forced to take as the cost is included in the unit, and how you can barely make them survivable without spending stupid money for an invulnerable + tzeentch + a power weapon, and the troop tax just had another tax hidden in the mix. This was I think my biggest hatred in the whole book.

There is something to that. Mechanics like this are just more palatable when they are thematically carried through rather than just being tacked on. It wouldn't be as bad if the Champions actually stood a chance, if they were more interesting, and if they had the means to be developed as individual powerhouses. IF they were good, they would be forced to roll on the table more often and GW would sell more Spawn and more Daemon Princes.

Then GW could reshape the narrative around them. For example, there is a disconnect between legions and renegade chapters... something like this could drive how these forces have blended and break down some of the weak points in execution... Why don't we have more distinctive legion forces? -Why aren't their 10,000 year old super killing marines everywhere? -Where do these renegades get all the combi-bolters and similar non-loyalist equipment in abundance? -In a reshaped narrative supported by a more fleshed out champion system it'd be easier to say individual butt-kicker legionaries strike out and force their way into renegade forces asserting leadership, inflicting them with corruption, and bringing them into the chaos fold. They become a narrative tool for tyrannical forced assimilation that can dispel some of why things are a little more homogeneous. It's not really what we want, but it'd be a more cohesive and sincere attempt at making chaos marine viable and distinctive in the face of the limited resources GW is willing to provide them.

If I had the money I'd run something like this, seems like it would be fun as hell (rough ideas only):

Black Crusade Detachment - "Iron Warriors Decimation Force"

Chaos Warband
Terminator Lord
4x 5-man CSM squads w/Plasma Gun, Rhino
1x 3-man Bike squad with 2/Meltaguns
1x 3-man "Termicide" squad with combi-meltas
3x 5-man Havoc squads w/Autocannons

Fist of the Gods
Warpsmith
3x Vindicators

Expensive as all hell (looking at around $800 or so), maybe not even that good but holy crap would that look amazing on the table.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

You know what Guard want? Tanks to be playable again.
You know what bugs want? ANY invuln outside floating brainbugs.
You know what DE want? Not to have been booty-played by the Jink FAQ.
You know what BA want? The same things we want only our dex is now upper middle tier and theirs is still gak.

I already a dressed the outdated points. I pointed out the releases allow us to run most of the prevalent legions. I guarantee that if we get legion tactics the same people clammoring for them in this thread would turn around and cry about being even more like spikey marines. What Legion are you trying to run that you can't currently represent on the table?

For Christ's sake there are people in this thread whining about a free LD upgrade. And TWO free stat buffs for characters. That fact alone says more than I ever can.

You asked for what we wanted, don't complain when you get an answer. I'm well aware that CSM isn't the only Codex having a hard time and never claimed that it was. I'd love for IG and DE to get the toys they need to compete, but that's not what this thread is about.

As for what legion, Thousand Sons, accurate to the fluff. It remains a CAD only affair at the moment and being forced to waste a psychic level rolling on the useless tzeentch table for the privilege.

As for people whining if we got chapter tactics, I would be willing to bet not only a significant sum of money but also large portions of my anatomy that there would be no complaints about getting legion tactics or similar (complaints about it not being strong enough or that one legions is clearly better than another don't count)

People are comparing +1 LD and hatred imperials against ~500 points of free transports and understandably coming to the conclusion that we're being short changed as usual. +1 LD, hatred and 1-2 possibly useless, possibly helpful possibly detrimental boons aren't free, they come at the cost of being locked into a black legion detachment (and associated Auxiliary). For some, it's not worth not being able to take any heavy support outside of the formations, for others, they don't want to take mandatory CSM. For others, they simply desire more freedom in force composition. Both my CSM armies (Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors) are better off running CAD'S instead of the black legion detachments. I'm not complaining about the supplement at all, it does exactly what it says on the tin, it provides a fluffy way to run many armies, it's better than what we had before, it's just that there's very little in here that we asked for and even less in here that we need.

BrianDavion wrote:

Drasius 702276 88989271bacfaaea0df373da54a433675dfaa5f.jpg wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
but Christ what else do you want? !

A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?

More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?

This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.

He asked what we want. What we want (need really) is a new dex. I did not once expect this supplement to fix any of our issues at all and was pleasantly surprised that not 100% of the book was completely useless to ever (but at the same time, not at all surprised that it was almost 100% useless for me).

DaPino wrote:
Holy gak, going throughthis thread made me realize just what people mean when all CSM players do is complain.

"I don't see how charging from DS makes my raptors/warp talons more useful" -> Facepalm

"We should have high Ld to begin with instead of getting free VoTLW" -> Literally two sides of the same coin

Sigh. And this is why genuine complaints get discredited with the "all CSM players are so salty" argument.

More people cry about the CSM 'whiner' boogeyman than actual CSM players complain.

When somebody makes a thread going "lol suck it up CSMs are fine XDDD" then people are within their right to deconstruct that.

 Drasius wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

You know what Guard want? Tanks to be playable again.
You know what bugs want? ANY invuln outside floating brainbugs.
You know what DE want? Not to have been booty-played by the Jink FAQ.
You know what BA want? The same things we want only our dex is now upper middle tier and theirs is still gak.

I already a dressed the outdated points. I pointed out the releases allow us to run most of the prevalent legions. I guarantee that if we get legion tactics the same people clammoring for them in this thread would turn around and cry about being even more like spikey marines. What Legion are you trying to run that you can't currently represent on the table?

For Christ's sake there are people in this thread whining about a free LD upgrade. And TWO free stat buffs for characters. That fact alone says more than I ever can.

You asked for what we wanted, don't complain when you get an answer. I'm well aware that CSM isn't the only Codex having a hard time and never claimed that it was. I'd love for IG and DE to get the toys they need to compete, but that's not what this thread is about.

As for what legion, Thousand Sons, accurate to the fluff. It remains a CAD only affair at the moment and being forced to waste a psychic level rolling on the useless tzeentch table for the privilege.

As for people whining if we got chapter tactics, I would be willing to bet not only a significant sum of money but also large portions of my anatomy that there would be no complaints about getting legion tactics or similar (complaints about it not being strong enough or that one legions is clearly better than another don't count)

People are comparing +1 LD and hatred imperials against ~500 points of free transports and understandably coming to the conclusion that we're being short changed as usual. +1 LD, hatred and 1-2 possibly useless, possibly helpful possibly detrimental boons aren't free, they come at the cost of being locked into a black legion detachment (and associated Auxiliary). For some, it's not worth not being able to take any heavy support outside of the formations, for others, they don't want to take mandatory CSM. For others, they simply desire more freedom in force composition. Both my CSM armies (Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors) are better off running CAD'S instead of the black legion detachments. I'm not complaining about the supplement at all, it does exactly what it says on the tin, it provides a fluffy way to run many armies, it's better than what we had before, it's just that there's very little in here that we asked for and even less in here that we need.

BrianDavion wrote:

Drasius 702276 88989271bacfaaea0df373da54a433675dfaa5f.jpg wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
but Christ what else do you want? !

A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?

More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?

This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.

He asked what we want. What we want (need really) is a new dex. I did not once expect this supplement to fix any of our issues at all and was pleasantly surprised that not 100% of the book was completely useless to ever (but at the same time, not at all surprised that it was almost 100% useless for me).

Exalted for truth.

I just opened my codex now and cringed when I noticed that mark of slaanesh is 2pts/model on everything even Havocs, I feel like i'm getting punished for wanting to play a mono god army.

I think stubborn would go a long way to making normal chaos space marines viable.

 Rydria wrote:
I just opened my codex now and cringed when I noticed that mark of slaanesh is 2pts/model on everything even Havocs, I feel like i'm getting punished for wanting to play a mono god army.

It's also 1ppm on oblits. Who have powerfists. And can't get any other weapons. Perhaps you'd like to pay 10 points for the nurgle banner on possessed? That gives fear. To a daemons unit. There are countless examples of this throughout the poor joke that we call a Codex.

So I guess the end answer is, despite some nice novelties, and fixing psychic powers we still have

1 Codex - £30
3 Supplements (BL and CS actually re-released) - £60
Daemons on top - £30

with a dire fundamentals