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Unit1126PLL wrote: And I think that has to do with the background. Very few legions are intact enough to have entire fighting forces from the same legion.
I think GW are trying to make their fluff (that most legions shattered long ago, and that the unique thing about Abbadon was the ability to call back together such a shattered force) match with the crunch (that you can no longer take a mono-legion army).
GW isn't doing a good job at that then. Both forgeworld and Gw have listed several sub factions amongst the remnants of the legions. The legions were huge and them splitting up is no different than the loyalist chapters. They don't have any reason not to give us a similar treatment in terms of unique rules and units per legion. The difference in how the individual smaller warbands wage war would be equivalent to different armies under those codices. Just like loyalists.
I just don't get how GW can keep being so wrong about how they approach csm. And why they have such a massive hard-on for khorne. We have enough khorne formations to rival KDK by now. The trinity of blood, kharns butcher horde , the maelstrom of gore, the hounds of abaddon. we even have two versions of the trinity and maelstorm. Kytans, blood slautherers, brass scorpions, 3 varieties of blood thirsters.... the list goes on, you get the point.
Nor do I understand why they so consistenly half ass csm. KDK was a pretty poor excuse for a codex compared to what they could have done. Even daemons seem to get better treatment. They got their own new disciplines and relics.
To be perfectly honest what I think they need to do to give chaos its own identity is to make use of the demon weapons like what the war engines have. Ectoplasma, baleflamers, hades autocannons, etc. Basically chaos hereteks push new weaponry unlike the imperium with their religious overtones. So chaos doesbt get copies of loyalist stuff, they get dark mirrors. Imagine like a chaos only predator variant with hades autocannons or baleflamer or an ectoplasma cannon. Let chaos evolve into its own distinct flavor and not just spiky Marines with less cool weapons.
If they had put in Legion Tactics, I would have loved Traitor's Hate. As it is however, I am okay with it. It helps some, but is a far cry from what I would say most CSM players wanted.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
As much as I would like Legion tactics I think what is better is to give chaos their own identity with enough flavor and customisation that we don't need to have the same things that the Loyalists get because we will have enough flexibility to make up each Legion without needing special rules for them all. I think the key to this is, besides what I said about about making use of warp infused weapons, is to bring back the veteran traits from the 3.5 codex that way we can customize our troops and that is what we get Legion tactics from. Squad wide, not army wide.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/13 01:57:34
I actually think this helps address the warband/Legion problem. I mean with this book you can actor units a fluffy IW list or a fluffy-ish Nighlords list. Not to mention World Eaters or Red Corsairs.
We got a hell of a lot of buffs, mostly for free and some pretty legit formations. Not riptidewing, but if Chaos got something that powerful most CSM players would whine about how we became too OP and can't get a game in. We've got more supplements than any other standing army (finally a pretty damn good one) we can ally battle brothers with 3 armies as opposed to the loyalists 4, and with TH fluffy Legion lists are possible.
We could use a few points drops and "Legion Traits" to solidify special snowflake heretic xhapters, but Christ what else do you want? !
Looks like we got some good discussions here. I knew this would open a big can of worms, sorry if my post reeked of smugness...as one put it.
Compared to older codexes, we have had it pretty decent. Explain the old phase out rules to a new gamer, or the 11 year tau codex, not to mention the long hiatus DE had before being updated in 5th. Wishing for 3.5, is like wanting one of the 5th Ward codexes.
Look on the bright side, we got a slight update to boost our armies until 8th. Mainly, we avoid having a DA 6th edition debacle.
I liked the complaint about free +1 LD too. I'm tired of running away and being swept in combat! How does this help me!? Rabble rabble rabble
And as for flavourful terminators? Wut?
DG grave wardens should be all but lethal to be around. They would be perfect for GW to introduce too. It would be as easy as being a dark mirror to the Dark Angel knights. But instead of gaining toughness they'd reduce the Strength of the enemy unit. With the usual fnp and what have you. Maybe even two wounds. Adapt the price to whatever is appropriate, but that is the kind of stuff csm should be rocking.
World eater themed terminators could have rampage and HoW with higher strength, maybe sweep but no guns. Thrashing around, charging with no regard to themselves. The red butchers don't have to have survived to still exist. Even back then they were the equivalent of humanoid chaos dreads. Strap some crazy into a dreadnaught armour and let him loose. Said armour could easily enough be retrieved later.
Not sure about the other cults, but most of the legions, loyalist or not, had some kind of special terminator unit. It would only make sense to give csm something similar in 40k. Only warped in some form. Until we that kind of stuff, we'll always just be faceless villains. DG used dangerous radiation based weaponry even before they fell and the y only got more resilient after their fall. Give us appropriate weapons that might even hurt us for all I care and balance it towards fnp and iwnd if they are strong, risk /reward and all that. Anything. I just want to play legions with appropriate fluffy rules rather than spacemarines -1 with spikes. And that has to happen on the codex level.
Fundamentally, what would you say the distinction between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is in the fluff? As in, on the battlefield against, say, the Tau, how would the Tau tell the difference between Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines?
Between loyalists and your average traitor? Nothing. Unless they pick up some plague marines maybe and start summoning daemons. A couple of possessed would not be unreasonable. Space marines don't typically distort their bodies to grow wings.
Legionnaires on the other hand are steeped in the daemonic, with their hatred actually manifest. They affect the world around them. Warping it, breaking it. Reconnaisance would probably give reports of dark rituals, sacrifices and such. That much is true for all of them. Not sure how space marines deal with innocent citizens or children, but I imagine csm would be a tad less inhibited.
Should they face deathguard or typhus, the dead would walk, swarms of flies would blot out the sun. Suffice to say it wouldn't be a pleasant sight and very different to a marine attack.
Doubly so should a daemonic primarch appear. Everything around mortarion just dies, including the ground he walks on.
The difference between world eaters and flesh tearers would probably seem minimal to a tau, initally. At least until they start observing effects like those with described in khorne daemonkin. The world eaters would be relentless and the longer the fighting goes on the more rabid they would become. Blood would fill the air. They would be using the same strategies, only to find out they're not working. Space marines aren't in the habit of cleaving through a tank with an axe after all. Nor do space marines come back from the dead.
Even just visually they would seem different. Marines are more or less proper. With csm the more recent traitors wouldn't look that different, safe for a few horns and skulls here and there, but that's really not that much of a departure from loyalists. The more veteran marines though can appear hulking and it can be hard to tell where the armour stops and the flesh begins. Their armour might seem (and be) alive. Tentacles and various appendages like extra arms. If you go by the rpgs, the sky's the limit really. Up to and including flickering from existance. Even being headless is a possibility. And it doesn't stop with the marines. The tau might snipe the pilot out of a tank, only to have the tank turn towards them on its own. Maybe being replaced by a huge bulging eyeball.
And then there are phenomena like with the crimson slaughter. The impossible become reality with all the horrors that entails. the night lords were infamous for creating terror BEFORE their fall to chaos. Fighting csm, no matter the legion, would have a very VERY different effect on the taus's morale. Seeing your comrades heads explode is one thing, witnessing their souls being ripped out of their bodies only to be literally devoured is on a whole other level. Or being turned inside out, or seeing a csm getting turned inside out....and walking away, coming right at you, howling with a guttural roar, the very walls around you shifting. Yea, I think they'd realize those aren't your average space marines pretty fast XD
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/13 03:22:30
And as for flavourful terminators? Wut?
DG grave wardens should be all but lethal to be around. They would be perfect for GW to introduce too. It would be as easy as being a dark mirror to the Dark Angel knights. But instead of gaining toughness they'd reduce the Strength of the enemy unit. With the usual fnp and what have you. Maybe even two wounds. Adapt the price to whatever is appropriate, but that is the kind of stuff csm should be rocking.
World eater themed terminators could have rampage and HoW with higher strength, maybe sweep but no guns. Thrashing around, charging with no regard to themselves. The red butchers don't have to have survived to still exist. Even back then they were the equivalent of humanoid chaos dreads. Strap some crazy into a dreadnaught armour and let him loose. Said armour could easily enough be retrieved later.
Not sure about the other cults, but most of the legions, loyalist or not, had some kind of special terminator unit. It would only make sense to give csm something similar in 40k. Only warped in some form. Until we that kind of stuff, we'll always just be faceless villains. DG used dangerous radiation based weaponry even before they fell and the y only got more resilient after their fall. Give us appropriate weapons that might even hurt us for all I care and balance it towards fnp and iwnd if they are strong, risk /reward and all that. Anything. I just want to play legions with appropriate fluffy rules rather than spacemarines -1 with spikes. And that has to happen on the codex level.
Fundamentally, what would you say the distinction between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is in the fluff? As in, on the battlefield against, say, the Tau, how would the Tau tell the difference between Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines?
Between loyalists and your average traitor? Nothing. Unless they pick up some plague marines maybe and start summoning daemons. A couple of possessed would not be unreasonable. Space marines don't typically distort their bodies to grow wings.
Legionnaires on the other hand are steeped in the daemonic, with their hatred actually manifest. They affect the world around them. Warping it, breaking it. Reconnaisance would probably give reports of dark rituals, sacrifices and such. That much is true for all of them. Not sure how space marines deal with innocent citizens or children, but I imagine csm would be a tad less inhibited.
Should they face deathguard or typhus, the dead would walk, swarms of flies would blot out the sun. Suffice to say it wouldn't be a pleasant sight and very different to a marine attack.
Doubly so should a daemonic primarch appear. Everything around mortarion just dies, including the ground he walks on.
The difference between world eaters and flesh tearers would probably seem minimal to a tau, initally. At least until they start observing effects like those with described in khorne daemonkin. The world eaters would be relentless and the longer the fighting goes on the more rabid they would become. Blood would fill the air. They would be using the same strategies, only to find out they're not working. Space marines aren't in the habit of cleaving through a tank with an axe after all. Nor do space marines come back from the dead.
Even just visually they would seem different. Marines are more or less proper. With csm the more recent traitors wouldn't look that different, safe for a few horns and skulls here and there, but that's really not that much of a departure from loyalists. The more veteran marines though can appear hulking and it can be hard to tell where the armour stops and the flesh begins. Their armour might seem (and be) alive. Tentacles and various appendages like extra arms. If you go by the rpgs, the sky's the limit really. Up to and including flickering from existance. Even being headless is a possibility. And it doesn't stop with the marines. The tau might snipe the pilot out of a tank, only to have the tank turn towards them on its own. Maybe being replaced by a huge bulging eyeball.
And then there are phenomena like with the crimson slaughter. The impossible become reality with all the horrors that entails. the night lords were infamous for creating terror BEFORE their fall to chaos. Fighting csm, no matter the legion, would have a very VERY different effect on the taus's morale. Seeing your comrades heads explode is one thing, witnessing their souls being ripped out of their bodies only to be literally devoured is on a whole other level. Or being turned inside out, or seeing a csm getting turned inside out....and walking away, coming right at you, howling with a guttural roar, the very walls around you shifting. Yea, I think they'd realize those aren't your average space marines pretty fast XD
So how do you reflect that on the tabletop? Add spikes? Have a unit of possessed and some daemons? Have a possessed vehicle?
All of these are already possible. I guess my question is that they want chaos to not be 'spiky marines' but fundamentally, that's all they are. 'Spiky marines' is basically what you describe - warped flesh, psychic powers, and daemons are all already on the tabletop, arguably in spades. You can make the dead walk with Typhus, you can have your sorcerers enact dark rituals that pull Daemons from the warp and onto the battlefield...
And as for flavourful terminators? Wut?
DG grave wardens should be all but lethal to be around. They would be perfect for GW to introduce too. It would be as easy as being a dark mirror to the Dark Angel knights. But instead of gaining toughness they'd reduce the Strength of the enemy unit. With the usual fnp and what have you. Maybe even two wounds. Adapt the price to whatever is appropriate, but that is the kind of stuff csm should be rocking.
World eater themed terminators could have rampage and HoW with higher strength, maybe sweep but no guns. Thrashing around, charging with no regard to themselves. The red butchers don't have to have survived to still exist. Even back then they were the equivalent of humanoid chaos dreads. Strap some crazy into a dreadnaught armour and let him loose. Said armour could easily enough be retrieved later.
Not sure about the other cults, but most of the legions, loyalist or not, had some kind of special terminator unit. It would only make sense to give csm something similar in 40k. Only warped in some form. Until we that kind of stuff, we'll always just be faceless villains. DG used dangerous radiation based weaponry even before they fell and the y only got more resilient after their fall. Give us appropriate weapons that might even hurt us for all I care and balance it towards fnp and iwnd if they are strong, risk /reward and all that. Anything. I just want to play legions with appropriate fluffy rules rather than spacemarines -1 with spikes. And that has to happen on the codex level.
Fundamentally, what would you say the distinction between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is in the fluff? As in, on the battlefield against, say, the Tau, how would the Tau tell the difference between Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines?
One has spikes and skulls everywhere. The other only has skulls. It's a pretty obvious distinction.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Boons aren't dumb when given for free.
2. Free LD9-10 is MUCH better than paying for the Fearless icon. That was really just complaining to complain.
Or perhaps they should just be higher leadership standard? And even when free boons are still dumb, they were an interesting concept when they first came out in Fantasy, but they have overstayed their welcome along with being required to do challenges.
And outright ruined the property value of the entire daemon codex with their squatting within it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You guys aren't getting Legion rules because that's basically Chapter Tactics. Get over it. It is wishlisting at this point.
It does make some of the book useful though.
We did have it first. Just saying.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?
More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
DaPino wrote: Holy gak, going throughthis thread made me realize just what people mean when all CSM players do is complain.
"I don't see how charging from DS makes my raptors/warp talons more useful" -> Facepalm
"We should have high Ld to begin with instead of getting free VoTLW" -> Literally two sides of the same coin
Sigh. And this is why genuine complaints get discredited with the "all CSM players are so salty" argument.
They just try to match the csm fluff.
"My dad loves my other brother more than he loves me! Oh, i hate him so much, i'm gona riot and go wreck Terra and stuff".
A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?
More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?
You know what Guard want? Tanks to be playable again.
You know what bugs want? ANY invuln outside floating brainbugs.
You know what DE want? Not to have been booty-played by the Jink FAQ.
You know what BA want? The same things we want only our dex is now upper middle tier and theirs is still gak.
I already a dressed the outdated points. I pointed out the releases allow us to run most of the prevalent legions. I guarantee that if we get legion tactics the same people clammoring for them in this thread would turn around and cry about being even more like spikey marines. What Legion are you trying to run that you can't currently represent on the table?
For Christ's sake there are people in this thread whining about a free LD upgrade. And TWO free stat buffs for characters. That fact alone says more than I ever can.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/13 07:29:28
For Christ's sake there are people in the Blood Angels thread whining about a free +1 I. AND free Zealot (Hatred and Psuedo-Fearless) for under-strength units. That fact alone says more than I ever can.
And both are still gak. BA have a worse core formation but everything else is on par or better (like access to Grav Devs and new relics). Even then, you aren't even forced to use that Core so you can use a better Formation instead that allows you to spam drop Sternguard if you so desire.
Care to link me to this BA thread? Seriously, I'd love to see what they got that isn't mostly useless (aside from grav cannons with no proper delivery system).
Better yet, can you link me to some kind of proof they actually got grav cannons and zealot (sans character ) that isnt just dakka wishlisting? If you're talking about the same RUMIRS I've heard, it's basically going to be codex DC (kinda defeating the position of bringing anything else). If you cant, and you're talking about BSF, this has been beaten to death, resurrected and beaten to death again. BSF is terribad.
I'll be the first to admit that's some dumb gak to whine about (even though I'll take a better sergeant and LD 9 all day every day over +1 I in an army that can't make it to combat)... Unless it comes at the expense of petty stuff like obsec.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/13 08:02:16
Until GW gives us Traitor legions, rules, models and formations that make it possible to build an entirely fluffy and semi-competitive army which includes full psychic disciplines, proper marks, proper cult units like terminators/ havocs/ bikes etc. and Relics for every traitor legion. I refuse to acknowledge a job well done.
edit: When I say proper cult units, I mean the whole army. If Plague Marines have 5+ feel no pain, and fear. Then everything in the army must have those same rules when playing Death Guard. If Noise Marines have access to sonic weapons, all Emperor's Children units must have access to sonic weapons.
Observation? The Chaos Space Marine Codex with the 'Books of Chaos' legion section didn't have plague terminators with feel no pain.
I never understood people's reaction to this. The Chaos Space Marine book which included Plague Marines as a distinct unit to Nurgle Chaos Space Marines was the first one to do this.
If you want every unit in your army to be identical rules-wise, take the mark of nurgle on everything, and you are identical to the 3.5 edition death guard.
If you want an army comprised entirely of the 'better-than-this' plague marines, etc, then take Typhus and plague marines, or necrosius in a Purge detachment.
Again, It's great that GW threw us a bone, but the same stuff still applies to this release as it always does for chaos. They keep handing out renegade stuff and we don't want it. We want Legions! I don't know how hard it is for them to figure out that like 90% of the chaos marine playing community wants chaos legions back. All you need to do is look at how well HH is doing and put 2 and 2 together.
I still don't get why the Black Legion detachment isn't a 'legion' force. You can make a perfectly fluffy and effective list for any of the undivided legions - which, as a black legion detachment, is all it's trying to do.
It offers unlimited cultists for alpha legion daemons for word bearers, improved raptor forces for night lords, siege daemon engines for iron warriors, and frothing nutbars with axes for world eaters.
Yeah, Red Butchers should come back.
Was planning on using Khornate Mutilators for them, as it happens. With the new formation they can deliver faintly ridiculous levels of 'dear god not the face'.
Again, Boons are dumb.
The Boon table is terrible and simply needs to just go away.
They're annoyingly unreliable, but they are pretty good - epecially with the new detachment. The problem is that they aren't very powerful bonuses, and it's unpredictable what you get, and you need to murder another character to get it - which is a problem, because chaos marine characters aren't much better than other characters.
The good bit is that they're permenant - which is why being able to pick up one or two on the first couple of turns makes it much better - because you can then carry them into the assault, which makes winning much more likely....which gives you more access to boons, and so on. You're also much less likely to accidentally spawnhood or daemonhood yourself unless you want to.
The new disciplines are also very effective - yes, they're a copy/paste of the marine ones, but chaos marines are not a copy/paste of space marine librarians - they're able to get a higher mastery level, and have access to the freakin' awesome spell familiar, allowing you to cast more powers with less dice - meaning (a) more psychic explodyness for your warp charge and (b) less perlis of the warp.
Plus there are a few other minor difference - for example, whilst the Heretch powers are identical to the Technomancy powers, chaos vehicles don't have Power Of The Machine Spirit - therefore there's a minor benefit there. Sorcerors can be a much scarier proposition in melee even before psychic powers hit - because they have access to marks of chaos, and an Iron Halo equivalent, for example.
We did have it first. Just saying.
Index Astartes - which was both loyalist and traitor chapters - had it first, to be fair. The first 'index astartes' army list was the Black Templars.
You do lose ObSec as neither of the Core Formations have it (unless one of the Auxiliary Formations has it), however you do get several Auxiliaries that are better than the Chaos ones, and one Core Formation that can be really strong if you equip its units right (the Drop Sternguard spam I was talking about).
Overall as Formations go, they're pretty bad like most of the Chaos ones from Traitor's Hate.
I'm quite impressed actually. Awesome they get scouting/Outflanking Baal Preds again. Outflanking LR'S is pretty gnarly. I can't find anything to complain about. Admittedly, most of them are pretty bad, but there are a few gems in there. Hard to rate against TH to be fair. I'd probably put TH on top, but only because the blooded demi company is six kinds of gak. Partially made up for by ATSKNF though.
All in all I can't see why BA players would bitch. Our Codex is terrible, and Exterminatus was pretty bad, but this looks pretty cool.
Thanks for the link to the page. I didn't get beyond pg 2 in that thread because it's basically 8 pages of this thread.
Ankhalagon wrote: This book is for our last remaining CSM-player pretty useless. Because we have a houserule since nobody wanted to play against Tau, Eldar, Necrons and AdMech-Convocation anymore: No Formations, except Clowns.
Too bad, his only other army are Orks.....
As long he don´t want to get steamrolled by Decurion; shot by D-weapons; meet some crazy suits; getting skyhammered or something dump like that(Its kind of a "Balance of Terror"-situation: If somebody fields a Formation, the others will bring it too.....).
Also: Shifting Worldscape is banned here(as well as DftS), because it just caused very unpleasant "discussions". When I say 40k is a mess right now, I refer to that. Long discussions on that topics are the reason why I stay the hell away from tournaments and rather play 30k this days.
I don't think 40K is a mess in a friendly setting. My group of 8 people has 0 problems with anything you described because we keep it civil. Our Eldar and Tau player realize armies like CSM and Guard can't do gak against them if they bring their best and as such they don't.
Also, no formations is a useless rule because it changes nothing to the overall ranking of armies. If anything, formations are a good gapcloser as long as the very strong codices don't bring their very strong formations and the weaker army can bring some formations.
The fact that your group can't manage itself to set up fair fights is entirely your groups fault and has nothing to do with 40K as a game system. 40K was unbalanced before formations became a thing; if people wanted a fair fight one side had to tone it down most of the time aswell.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/13 09:23:20
You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness.
A decent base Codex? A playable cult army that isn't khorne based? Some sort of updated armoury that allows CSM to compete on a level playing field? Updated models that don't have half their details lost to mold degradation or rely on resin upgrade packs? Any sort of justification for why a warpsmith is 110 points with worse gear and options compared to a 65 point techmarine, why the only 2+ armour available to a CSM character is Terminator armour or a crimson slaughter relic, A reason why a vanilla marine chapter master has more wounds and more attacks than a chaos lord who should be the epitome of an astartes warrior, Why we have so many units in our Codex that were utter junk when it was released, let alone after 4 years of suffering insanities like the eldar codecies?
More importantly than all of that, how about a Codex that focuses on the legions like 90% 'ish of the CSM community has been screaming out for for the last 10 years?
This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
And I think that has to do with the background. Very few legions are intact enough to have entire fighting forces from the same legion.
Some of the biggest and most important Legions are still properly intact. Word Bearer's are actually massive, Iron Warriors are still intact and of course the Black Legion actually have their supplement. On top of that, there are many Legions that are still operating in smaller groups such as the Knight Lords and Alpha Legion.
Plus, saying "They're not intact enough" is kind of a cop-out. You can still have rules for those small isolated pockets. Those groups aren't going to quit using their tactics just because they're now in a group of 50 instead of 500. The Cult legions for example don't suddenly lose their "cultiness" just because there's a single squad of 5 of them stuck in an otherwise non-marked army.
What different flavours? Chaos termies have more options than loyalist termies.
They have more weapon options. Weapons that are weaker and less point efficient than the loyalist counterparts. Cult terminators are something we used to actually have (via Chaptor approved). They are represented in the fluff as well.
As for what it would hurt... *shrug.* What would it hurt to give all Guard troops choices the option for carapace like they had in 4th? What would it hurt to give the Doctrines system back to guard as an alternative to chapter tactics?
Guard lost as much flexibility and customizability as CSM but for some reason whine less.
The thing is, Guard certainly lost a lot in their new book. For sure. Their last book was pretty good. Guard is a book that goes up and down with the editions. CSM has consistently gone down for multiple editions now. It has become less coherent, weaker, and less "fluffy" with each new codex. It's a very consistent downward trend.
"I don't see how charging from DS makes my raptors/warp talons more useful" -> Facepalm
Not a single person said that. Not one. The point about that was GW should have allowed Warp Talons to assault from DS from day one. They are so expensive and so fragile that without that they are nigh unplayable in 6th and 7th. So they finally give us that but oh, since you're Chaos, here's a catch ... CSM, Orks and Nids are the only books (IMO) that consistently do more to handicap and penalize their players than help them.
"We should have high Ld to begin with instead of getting free VoTLW" -> Literally two sides of the same coin
No. We've always had high LD to represent the 1000's of years a lot of the CSM have been alive. We lost that in the new book. They dropped our LD and then said "but hey! It's not all bad! You can pay a per-model tax to get that back." Everything in that book is already overpriced to begin with. We don't need one more tax. Imagine if the Loyalists were told in their next codex "You no longer get ATSKNF and we dropped you're leadership by one, but you can get all that back by paying for it". Marine players would riot (rightly so IMO).
The "free" VoTLW" in this case isn' really free AND it's redundant with a lot of abilities in that formation. That's on top of the sub-par tax units that have to be taken. It's not really free and it's something we shouldn't have to pay for to begin with.
This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.
From my perspective, I was just kind of hoping that TH would address a few problems with the main codex in a more productive way. I didn't expect a huge power boost or anything like that. Just a few half-decent stop gaps. It fails at that.
I DO think it allows a fluffier force that looks a little more like Chaos than the main codex does, but, IMO, TH is really only a boost in narrative type games IMO. Nothing wrong with that, but I think a lot of people were hoping for something that would help a little more with the competitive side.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Ankhalagon wrote: This book is for our last remaining CSM-player pretty useless. Because we have a houserule since nobody wanted to play against Tau, Eldar, Necrons and AdMech-Convocation anymore: No Formations, except Clowns.
Too bad, his only other army are Orks.....
As long he don´t want to get steamrolled by Decurion; shot by D-weapons; meet some crazy suits; getting skyhammered or something dump like that(Its kind of a "Balance of Terror"-situation: If somebody fields a Formation, the others will bring it too.....).
Also: Shifting Worldscape is banned here(as well as DftS), because it just caused very unpleasant "discussions". When I say 40k is a mess right now, I refer to that. Long discussions on that topics are the reason why I stay the hell away from tournaments and rather play 30k this days.
I don't think 40K is a mess in a friendly setting. My group of 8 people has 0 problems with anything you described because we keep it civil. Our Eldar and Tau player realize armies like CSM and Guard can't do gak against them if they bring their best and as such they don't.
Also, no formations is a useless rule because it changes nothing to the overall ranking of armies. If anything, formations are a good gapcloser as long as the very strong codices don't bring their very strong formations and the weaker army can bring some formations.
The fact that your group can't manage itself to set up fair fights is entirely your groups fault and has nothing to do with 40K as a game system. 40K was unbalanced before formations became a thing; if people wanted a fair fight one side had to tone it down most of the time aswell.
We do. See my first post. Still changes nothing for our CSM with his complete disfunct codex. Or the Tyranids(2 players till 5th edition, now gone....). Or two DE-players, of whom one doesn´t showing up anymore... Nobody likes that messy formations here.
The problem are not the formations that much. Its the external and internal balance as a whole.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/13 15:00:08
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That's what he's saying though. Formations for the weaker armies would help the external balance with the stronger armied. Limit the big boys to a CAD and an allied Detatchment. Let the crap codices bring a formation or two if they want. This was not a bad book at all. But if your meta is riptides, Eldar and grav spam, I don't know why you expect the guys running weaker books to show up just to get stomped. Formations would probably help a bit... but this brings us back to DA Pinos point about managing your group.
My local groups run everything from fluffy DE to hard mode Necrons and SM, yet we manage to have fun every time we roll dice.
Dantes_Baals wrote: That's what he's saying though. Formations for the weaker armies would help the external balance with the stronger armied. Limit the big boys to a CAD and an allied Detatchment. Let the crap codices bring a formation or two if they want.
I'm not going to play a game with someone and use formations but tell them they can't use their formations in order for me to have fun with my army. I'll just keep all my Chaos stuff buried in the closet and play a different army.
And I think that has to do with the background. Very few legions are intact enough to have entire fighting forces from the same legion.
Some of the biggest and most important Legions are still properly intact. Word Bearer's are actually massive, Iron Warriors are still intact and of course the Black Legion actually have their supplement. On top of that, there are many Legions that are still operating in smaller groups such as the Knight Lords and Alpha Legion.
Plus, saying "They're not intact enough" is kind of a cop-out. You can still have rules for those small isolated pockets. Those groups aren't going to quit using their tactics just because they're now in a group of 50 instead of 500. The Cult legions for example don't suddenly lose their "cultiness" just because there's a single squad of 5 of them stuck in an otherwise non-marked army.
What different flavours? Chaos termies have more options than loyalist termies.
They have more weapon options. Weapons that are weaker and less point efficient than the loyalist counterparts. Cult terminators are something we used to actually have (via Chaptor approved). They are represented in the fluff as well.
As for what it would hurt... *shrug.* What would it hurt to give all Guard troops choices the option for carapace like they had in 4th? What would it hurt to give the Doctrines system back to guard as an alternative to chapter tactics?
Guard lost as much flexibility and customizability as CSM but for some reason whine less.
The thing is, Guard certainly lost a lot in their new book. For sure. Their last book was pretty good. Guard is a book that goes up and down with the editions. CSM has consistently gone down for multiple editions now. It has become less coherent, weaker, and less "fluffy" with each new codex. It's a very consistent downward trend.
"I don't see how charging from DS makes my raptors/warp talons more useful" -> Facepalm
Not a single person said that. Not one. The point about that was GW should have allowed Warp Talons to assault from DS from day one. They are so expensive and so fragile that without that they are nigh unplayable in 6th and 7th. So they finally give us that but oh, since you're Chaos, here's a catch ... CSM, Orks and Nids are the only books (IMO) that consistently do more to handicap and penalize their players than help them.
"We should have high Ld to begin with instead of getting free VoTLW" -> Literally two sides of the same coin
No. We've always had high LD to represent the 1000's of years a lot of the CSM have been alive. We lost that in the new book. They dropped our LD and then said "but hey! It's not all bad! You can pay a per-model tax to get that back." Everything in that book is already overpriced to begin with. We don't need one more tax. Imagine if the Loyalists were told in their next codex "You no longer get ATSKNF and we dropped you're leadership by one, but you can get all that back by paying for it". Marine players would riot (rightly so IMO).
The "free" VoTLW" in this case isn' really free AND it's redundant with a lot of abilities in that formation. That's on top of the sub-par tax units that have to be taken. It's not really free and it's something we shouldn't have to pay for to begin with.
This is a SUPPLEMENT. GW always advertised it as a SUPPLEMENT. if you expected a new codex, you sir need to learn to check your expecations.
From my perspective, I was just kind of hoping that TH would address a few problems with the main codex in a more productive way. I didn't expect a huge power boost or anything like that. Just a few half-decent stop gaps. It fails at that.
I DO think it allows a fluffier force that looks a little more like Chaos than the main codex does, but, IMO, TH is really only a boost in narrative type games IMO. Nothing wrong with that, but I think a lot of people were hoping for something that would help a little more with the competitive side.
Marine players wouldn't riot over losing ATSKNF. I have no clue where you get that idea from. I forget it exists half the time. It it made Marines cheaper, I say go for it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Dantes_Baals wrote: That's what he's saying though. Formations for the weaker armies would help the external balance with the stronger armied. Limit the big boys to a CAD and an allied Detatchment. Let the crap codices bring a formation or two if they want.
I'm not going to play a game with someone and use formations but tell them they can't use their formations in order for me to have fun with my army. I'll just keep all my Chaos stuff buried in the closet and play a different army.
You don't have to tell them they can't, but if they had any intention of keeping the game fun for everyone they wouldn't bring the strongest formations of the strongest armies to the table against the weaker armies. They'd keep that for when they face others with armies of similar strength. It's really as simple as that.
Telling people to deal with it or nudging them on to just get meta armies when there's a way to make it work that requires a bit more effort is both lazy and inconsiderate.
I can't speak for a competitive setting since the goal of that is to roll as much face as possible, but there's no good excuse for telling people they can't use rules if it ends up making the game more fair.
Does that mean it's fair that some get to use formations and some do not? No, but the fact that one codex gets better rules than another isn't fair either and it's up to the players to even that out as much as possible as long as GW doesn't.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/13 16:19:09
You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness.
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