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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No I just don't think that what Baxx is saying has much merit.

How are the scenarios not compatible? Outside of areas that are obviously overridden by a more complete campaign system in GW1, what's wrong with the Newcromunda rulebook?

Is he implying that the Zone Mortalis rules are contradicted by the Sector Mechanicus rules? It's just a different method of playing the same game.

Hi H.B.M.C did you see what I wrote earlier:

Baxx wrote:

Okay, just note that nothing I said had anything to do with the 2d/3d aspect of the game.

I have made a unified document of Necromunda, sewing together all sources into one. When doing so, there were 20+ pages in the rulebook that just didn't fit in (examples of which have been repeated all over the previous page).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:

Baxx wrote:
Rule book rules is not 1 set of rules, it's 2 sets of rules.

Gang War 1 is a different set of rules all together.

Only Gang War 1 and less than half of the rule book is "Necromunda" as we know it, the rest is something... different.

I... can't understand how you think this.

This is stupid.

Please read the rules before you play, you obviously haven't.

Haven't read the rules? I've read, written and edited every single line of all Necromunda 2017 rules including those leaked in Gang War 2.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

How are the scenarios not compatible?

No campaign rewards.

Outside of areas that are obviously overridden by a more complete campaign system in GW1, what's wrong with the Newcromunda rulebook?

That 27 out of 58 rules pages in Underhive came obsolete right out of the printing press except to the kind of player who needs that 4-page get you started leaflet that usually serves this function. Enough pages to fit half of Gang War into the main book.

Is he implying that the Zone Mortalis rules are contradicted by the Sector Mechanicus rules? It's just a different method of playing the same game.

No, I did not include the 2D terrain rules in the obsolete pages above.

I think it's a valid complaint to say that a quarter of the main book was never intended to be used except as a pretend board game like those Hewitt himself admitted were made entirely as a marketing gimmick for discount army bundles - Burning of Prospero and so on.

And yet we all had to pay for those 27 pages and we have to lug them around everywhere, and the artificial split between two books, and two sections of the core book, combined with an appalling level of editing incompetence, means that finding any specific rule is a complete pain.

We'd be better off if the big box just came with a getting started leaflet and all the rules came in a coherent whole in a (more expensive) Gang War 1.

At least that's my complaint. You might like having rules randomly scattered everywhere and not needing half of them, but don't act like that's on objectively superior position to be on.

Thank you again, I failed at expressing my opinions as clearly as this.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
And yet we all had to pay for those 27 pages and we have to lug them around everywhere, and the artificial split between two books, and two sections of the core book, combined with an appalling level of editing incompetence, means that finding any specific rule is a complete pain.

That would actually be my biggest complain, yeah...

Nothing in the Underhive rulebook is obsolete. It's a modular rules system with a couple of choices of mode of play. One-off skirmish game or campaign? 2D or 3D terrain?

The Underhive rulebook has the rules for skirmish games and 2D play. Gang War 1 has the rules for campaigns and 3D play. But you can play one-off skirmish games with 3D terrain and campaign games on the 2D tiles.

The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in the Underhive rulebook are for skirmish games. The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in GW1 are for campaign games. GW1 states this explicitly.

You can decide you're only interested in playing campaigns, and so you'll never use those rules from the Underhive rulebook, but that doesn't make them obsolete any more than the Open Play rules in the 40K rulebook are obsolete because I prefer Matched Play.

Guess we just disagree.

In my view, the dead dumbed-down demo version of the game is obsolete. Time will tell who is right.

Duskweaver wrote:
Nothing in the Underhive rulebook is obsolete. It's a modular rules system with a couple of choices of mode of play. One-off skirmish game or campaign? 2D or 3D terrain?

The Underhive rulebook has the rules for skirmish games and 2D play. Gang War 1 has the rules for campaigns and 3D play. But you can play one-off skirmish games with 3D terrain and campaign games on the 2D tiles.

The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in the Underhive rulebook are for skirmish games. The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in GW1 are for campaign games. GW1 states this explicitly.

You can decide you're only interested in playing campaigns, and so you'll never use those rules from the Underhive rulebook, but that doesn't make them obsolete any more than the Open Play rules in the 40K rulebook are obsolete because I prefer Matched Play.

What you say is true in exactly the same way as saying that Betrayal at Calth or Deathwatch Overkill is a real game. Objectively yes, but in practice only to a few people. The difference is the rest of us can't just throw out the booklet and card decks here and keep the minis for our 30k/40k army, those redundant pages will clog our Necromunda books forever.

As for the differences in costs and stats, don't kid yourself. Those are either artificial to justify doubling up on the page count, or random copy/paste errors. There is no clever game balancing going on there. Ya all should know that by now if you've been following GW for more than a month.

*Shrug* Our group will mostly be playing one-off skirmish games with the 2D tiles, because most of us just plain don't have the time to devote to running a proper campaign or buying, assembling and painting a table's worth of Sector Mechanicus stuff. You do what you want. But claiming that things are obsolete because you refuse to use them seems, to put it as politely as possible, somewhat conceited.

You talk of a group, yet there's only 2 gangs in the version you speak of. That's like saying you have a group playing 40k, but everyone is either using the orks or space marines from the starter box.

I don't care what board you play on. The version of this game which has 2 teams, 11 skills per team and 11 different items per team is gonna die. It's not gonna receive any further development, no further expansions, no nothing. It's on par with the leaflet starter rules which is standard from other companies (and I wish they kept those rules outside the book in a separate leaflet just like other companies do).

None of the hype and nostaliga for Necromunda got anything to do with that version.

What is going to survive (which we already know to survive from previous editions) is the full game. The broad game. The unlimited game. The not-dumbed-down game. The game that is more than a demo. The game with 6 houses. An equipment list of multiple pages. Skills that come on categories. The version that have juves. The version that is Necromunda.

Still waiting on my XMas copy to arrive.

I have visions of Gangs dancing in my head.

As long as the gear loadouts are from the Gang War book or PDF, and the minis are WYSIGWYG, a person could use any minis they wanted, right?

IG, Repentia, Scions, Skitarii, etc...

 TalonZahn wrote:
Still waiting on my XMas copy to arrive.

I have visions of Gangs dancing in my head.

As long as the gear loadouts are from the Gang War book or PDF, and the minis are WYSIGWYG, a person could use any minis they wanted, right?

IG, Repentia, Scions, Skitarii, etc...

Definitely! I have many, many plans in my head. Just choose the house gang list that you think best fits the theme, so Skitarii might be best suited as using the Van Saar list for example (given that they both like techno stuff!)

Baxx wrote:
What is going to survive (which we already know to survive from previous editions) is the full game. The broad game. The unlimited game. The not-dumbed-down game. The game that is more than a demo. The game with 6 houses. An equipment list of multiple pages. Skills that come on categories. The version that have juves. The version that is Necromunda.

And we have that, so what are you blithering about still?

It would be interesting to see if GW lets other kits "seep through" from regular 40k, like Skitarii and PDF.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Still waiting on my XMas copy to arrive.

I have visions of Gangs dancing in my head.

As long as the gear loadouts are from the Gang War book or PDF, and the minis are WYSIGWYG, a person could use any minis they wanted, right?

IG, Repentia, Scions, Skitarii, etc...

I currently use Skitarii and Genestealer Hybrids for my main gangs. Both boxes provide enough weapon variations and combinations to make all necessary gagers/juves for Oldcromunda (with Skitarii it is true as long as you don't want to play "exact" WYSYWIG" and can instead play "proxy theme" weaponry).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Baxx wrote:
What is going to survive (which we already know to survive from previous editions) is the full game. The broad game. The unlimited game. The not-dumbed-down game. The game that is more than a demo. The game with 6 houses. An equipment list of multiple pages. Skills that come on categories. The version that have juves. The version that is Necromunda.

And we have that, so what are you blithering about still?

You haven't picked up my message and want it repeated?

Baxx wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Baxx wrote:
What is going to survive (which we already know to survive from previous editions) is the full game. The broad game. The unlimited game. The not-dumbed-down game. The game that is more than a demo. The game with 6 houses. An equipment list of multiple pages. Skills that come on categories. The version that have juves. The version that is Necromunda.

And we have that, so what are you blithering about still?

You haven't picked up my message and want it repeated?

No, he just most likely would like you to kindly shut up about this entirely pointless argument you seem to fixate upon. As would others.

Yes, Gang War provides the Newcromunda that is played as campaigns whereas the main box does present the basic rules in a more widely marketable fashion. Could you perhaps just let it be so? You don't get any internet points for crusading against the way things are.

nou wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Still waiting on my XMas copy to arrive.

I have visions of Gangs dancing in my head.

As long as the gear loadouts are from the Gang War book or PDF, and the minis are WYSIGWYG, a person could use any minis they wanted, right?

IG, Repentia, Scions, Skitarii, etc...

I currently use Skitarii and Genestealer Hybrids for my main gangs. Both boxes provide enough weapon variations and combinations to make all necessary gagers/juves for Oldcromunda (with Skitarii it is true as long as you don't want to play "exact" WYSYWIG" and can instead play "proxy theme" weaponry).

Speaking of Ad Mech, I feel like the Macro stubber, Stub carbines and Flechette blaster would all make for cool weapons in the Underhive. I can see Macro stubbers and Flechette blasters being rare and expensive, but Stub carbines look like something that could be reasonably common.

Galvanic rifles would also be cool unusual weapons. I think Radium carbines would be too lethal to the user, but maybe they could work with anti-rad meds, and also for Van Saar.

It would be nice that after they released all of the factions they would compile everything into one book. Having to have at least 3 books so far (Core rules from the box set, can you even get those separate, GW1, upcoming GW2) sounds daunting to me.

It would also be nice if there were "boss encounters".
In the original there were a faction called spyrers, iirc, which were basically minibosses.

There were also Arbiters, which I vaguely recall being the GM's way of making sure a gang doesn't get too far ahead.
Its been ages since I read the original rules, so idk.

Having a Space Marine miniboss, tank, or a Necron miniboss might be fun.

Please stop having this argument about how compatible the main rule book and Gang War are. Please. It is ruining the thread.

I am desperately hoping for the old rules to design your own gang. Sadly, I doubt we will ever see them in this edition. I'm really peeved at the fact that Orlocks now have Savant instead of Shooting as a primary skill. It makes it almost impossible for me to recreate one of my original gangs, even in concept, let alone practice. Maybe it is a major typo. Here's hoping.

I also just bought a box of Skitarri and Genestealer cult to hodpodge a bunch of mooks and none (current gangs). Painting Skitarri robes to look like leather seems to be working wonders with the genestealer nerds legs and arms.

Thinking of buying a box or two of Stormtroopers/scions for leg and body (maybe even heads) kitbashing for more diversity or heavily armored guys (gotta show that 4+ save somehow!).

Will post pics once I finish building them.

 Fifty wrote:
I'm really peeved at the fact that Orlocks now have Savant instead of Shooting as a primary skill.

I'm pretty annoyed that the mining house gets Savant skills and +1 Int, while the biochemistry house doesn't. But not half as annoyed as I am at the only female gang in the game getting -1 Cool compared to everyone else for no reason other than, presumably, some GW designers still like sexist stereotypes...

EDIT: Oh, yeah, there's an actual topic, isn't there? OK, my speculation/wishlist item is that some other gangs (Cawdor and Delaque seem most appropriate) also get 8+ or worse Cool when they get their real (not legacy) rules.

Or maybe its because they are a bunch of drugged up psychopaths.

Duskweaver wrote:
But not half as annoyed as I am at the only female gang in the game getting -1 Cool compared to everyone else for no reason other than, presumably, some GW designers still like sexist stereotypes...

Do you honestly, and I do mean honestly, think that that's the reason why they have that Cool stat?

I mean really...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Or maybe its because they are a bunch of drugged up psychopaths.

So you're saying only Eschers are drugged-up psychopaths? 'Cos that's not what the game's actual lore says.

This is probably veering a little wide of the topic anyway.

EDIT: OK, this is going to be my last comment on this...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Do you honestly, and I do mean honestly, think that that's the reason why they have that Cool stat?

I do. I would normally be willing to give GW the benefit of the doubt, but there are just too many sexist stereotypes shoehorned into the Escher fluff in this edition for me to do that without being willfully blind. They are literally what the nerdy kid in school who couldn't get a date thinks girls are like (except with guns and biotech). They are the only gang explicitly stated to make money from the sex trade, despite the fact that logically all gangs would do that. They're the only gang to be negatively mechanically effected by their psychosis, when all gangers in the game are supposed to be at least a bit unstable. They're described as being exceptionally vain and fashion-obsessed (and viciously catty - gangers dare not look better than their gang leader). They think it's a good idea to wear stiletto-heeled thigh-boots in combat.

Do you honestly (and I do mean honestly) not see the big pile of problem there?

One or two of those things in isolation wouldn't bother me. I'm not some SJW ideologue who freaks out at the merest hint of sexism or objectification (as my Slaaneshi army for AoS would make abundantly obvious). But the Eschers in this iteration of Necromunda just feel like someone deliberately mashed together every sexist trope they could think of. It won't stop me playing the game. It won't stop me playing Eschers. But it still irks me.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Duskweaver wrote:
Nothing in the Underhive rulebook is obsolete. It's a modular rules system with a couple of choices of mode of play. One-off skirmish game or campaign? 2D or 3D terrain?

The Underhive rulebook has the rules for skirmish games and 2D play. Gang War 1 has the rules for campaigns and 3D play. But you can play one-off skirmish games with 3D terrain and campaign games on the 2D tiles.

The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in the Underhive rulebook are for skirmish games. The gang creation rules, skills, weapons and price lists etc. in GW1 are for campaign games. GW1 states this explicitly.

You can decide you're only interested in playing campaigns, and so you'll never use those rules from the Underhive rulebook, but that doesn't make them obsolete any more than the Open Play rules in the 40K rulebook are obsolete because I prefer Matched Play.

What you say is true in exactly the same way as saying that Betrayal at Calth or Deathwatch Overkill is a real game. Objectively yes, but in practice only to a few people. The difference is the rest of us can't just throw out the booklet and card decks here and keep the minis for our 30k/40k army, those redundant pages will clog our Necromunda books forever.....

On topic, I pretty much agree. GW should have included the campaign rules, 3D stuff, etc. in the core book and cut out the one-off pricing (or just make it an entry on the actual campaign pricing of stuff).
Our group bought into the game and I'm kind of annoyed that we're kind of stuck with this doling out of rules snippets via $25-$30 supplements.
I'd be much happier, if they were dead set on drip-feeding us, if they had put them in WD issues like they're reportedly doing with the GSC and Chaos cultists.

Off topic, Betrayal @ Calth and Deathwatch Overkill are actually pretty cool games in and by themselves.
My last group played through both games' campaigns and had started playing B@C one-off games because they were pretty decent scenarios.
Funny enough, the card mechanics from B@C have made their way into Newcromunda and so has alternating activation.

Duskweaver wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Or maybe its because they are a bunch of drugged up psychopaths.

So you're saying only Eschers are drugged-up psychopaths? 'Cos that's not what the game's actual lore says.

This is probably veering a little wide of the topic anyway.

They are a house who's infamous for their use of drugs and biochemistry and are reputed to be cruel and sadistic, even by gangster standards.
I mean, the other houses certainly aren't bastions of restraint and ethics, but House Escher is explicitly stated to be rather vicious, so having a hit to their cool stat to represent this is quite appropriate.
Let me put it this way - who do you think would be more likely to be drugged up on a more frequent basis, the criminals who make the drugs and effectively get them for free, or the criminals who have to buy them?

On topic, I really hope Arbites are a playable faction. Not just something that the GM uses to limit a gang during a campaign, which I vaguely remember how they were before.
Arbites are cool. I always liked that Judge Dredd / Robocop thing they have going on with their armor.

 Sherrypie wrote:
Could you perhaps just let it be so? You don't get any internet points for crusading against the way things are.

Ah man, now you've made the entire internet cry. And question the point in it's existence. Good going, you big bully

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
House Escher is explicitly stated to be rather vicious, so having a hit to their cool stat to represent this is quite appropriate.

A worse Cool score doesn't make them "more vicious". It makes them more flakey and likely to run away like startled rabbits when the shooting starts.

If GW wanted Eschers to feel "more vicious", they'd have given them primary access to Ferocity skills. As it stands, the Goliaths are the "more vicious" gang in the box.

Duskweaver wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
House Escher is explicitly stated to be rather vicious, so having a hit to their cool stat to represent this is quite appropriate.

A worse Cool score doesn't make them "more vicious". It makes them more flakey and likely to run away like startled rabbits when the shooting starts.

If GW wanted Eschers to feel "more vicious", they'd have given them primary access to Ferocity skills. As it stands, the Goliaths are the "more vicious" gang in the box.

Or shoot at the closest target. The cool stat has other functions than morale. Its almost as if its difficult to control oneself when hopped up on drugs.

It also might be a balancing factor for the quite potent combination of high movement, Combat and Agility skills. Some combinations are stronger than others. Of course, we don't have enough knowledge of what's planned to compare, but I guess it's about how much faith you have in their design ethic.