Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The ig will always have those 7-8 models to sacrifice. Or just forget overwatch and annihilate them with mortars.

IG can lose 50 models a turn and easily be pulling ahead.

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you charge a full squad of guardsmen into 30 Devilguants, 2-3 will live. Then, you charge in Bullgryns, who now no longer have to fear overwatch.

Or, hell, you charge the Gryns in first. 90 shots is 7.5 hits is 2.5 wounds is not even one dead Ogryn or Bullgryn.

I'll agree that, on the off chance you're charging a weakened Infantry squad into an untouched Devilgaunt squad, it matters. But, without special circumstances (such as D-Scythe Wraithguard) overwatch just doesn't mean much.

Imo Overwatch does it's job. It trims off the no-risk hail-mary charges that would be happening if it weren't there. The potential 11-12" charge to shut off an enemies firing for the next turn would be taken by more units otherwise. It also means that for successful assaults at close range, you sometimes have to commit more resources to pull it off, like your guard-Bullgryn example.

Martel732 wrote:
The ig will always have those 7-8 models to sacrifice. Or just forget overwatch and annihilate them with mortars.

IG can lose 50 models a turn and easily be pulling ahead.

To bring back the context of the larger discussion, are you , Blood-Angel Martel, really one to not care about Overwatch?

Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.

I agree.
I mainly play Eldar of all flavors and Tau, charging means very little to them

Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

 Lance845 wrote:
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.

2. And what about bloodletters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.

But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.

2. And what about bloodletters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.

But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.

Assuming reroll on everything, in a minimum squad of 16 Grav shots and 2 Bolter shots (I dunno what you do with your Sergeant), that's only 3.8 MEQ dead. If there's a full amount of Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for gaks and giggles let's run the numbers) that's 4.7. So Death Company aren't gonna care at all, but minimum Vanguard might. That's really about it.

"But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow. "

I'd just charge them with Vanguards w/SS. That's what they are for. To charge gak just like that without extra steps. Extra steps is how marines lose and lose big.

I mean, in a perfect world, I would play IG and just never charge anyone ever. But you know, perfect world and all that.

Martel732 wrote:
Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.

Sometimes overwatch do change the game.

I did lose game to overwatch, once upon a time I try to charge 3 Comtemptor Dreadnoughts into an Eldar "Lynx" (might got the name wrong, not familar with Eldar FW tanks, but I am certain it is a Super Heavy Skimmer with Pulsar, have a 5++ if it moved) buffed by Farseer with "guide", he rolls incredible in hitting so hit each charging Dread 3 times and rolls very high on that 2D6 damage. That 3 dread are all dead from full 10W health in my own charging phase. Then I just concided, cause by when the only powerful battle unit I have left is Guilliman himself and 5 Hellblasters.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.

2. And what about bloodletters?

You misuderstood. By all mens. Charge them. SHOOT them first. Even better then locking up a 240 point unit is removing a bunch of it's effectiveness before doing so.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.

2. And what about bloodletters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.

But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.

Assuming reroll on everything, in a minimum squad of 16 Grav shots and 2 Bolter shots (I dunno what you do with your Sergeant), that's only 3.8 MEQ dead. If there's a full amount of Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for gaks and giggles let's run the numbers) that's 4.7. So Death Company aren't gonna care at all, but minimum Vanguard might. That's really about it.

Re-Read the challenge and multiply grav results by 2 for the D3 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow. "

I'd just charge them with Vanguards w/SS. That's what they are for. To charge gak just like that without extra steps. Extra steps is how marines lose and lose big.

I mean, in a perfect world, I would play IG and just never charge anyone ever. But you know, perfect world and all that.

You're proving my point man. You do something other than the scenario I provided because the overwatch is dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.

2. And what about bloodletters?

You misuderstood. By all mens. Charge them. SHOOT them first. Even better then locking up a 240 point unit is removing a bunch of it's effectiveness before doing so.

I understood perfectly. But Tyranids are a "multiple threats" type of army and sometimes you want to spend your firepower elsewhere.

"You're proving my point man. You do something other than the scenario I provided because the overwatch is dangerous"

I would be, if that's exclusively why I put that unit in my list. Turns out Farseer+dark reaper is better than any overwatch could hope to be. I already stated there were a few specific kinds of overwatch that are threats. Everything else is gak. Pretty simple. The devil gaunts, for their cost, accomplish little in overwatch. It's free, but that's about it. Killing seven guardsmen is a footnote, not a feature.

BTW, I've never seen a devastator squad of grav in a Bobby G list. Because grav kinda sucks now.

Then we have 4.7 Reivers dead against a 10 mean squad I described (4 Grav Cannons and 14 Bolter shots)? 3 Tactical Terminators dead? 2 Assault Terminators dead?

So no, Overwatch really isn't that dangerous.

Martel732 wrote:


BTW, I've never seen a devastator squad of grav in a Bobby G list. Because grav kinda sucks now.

By math, a 4 Grav Devastator squad coming out of a pod near Guilliman have more than 50% chance of taking 10W from T6 - T9 Sv3+ targets. That should cripple things like Leman Russ Tank or Exocrines, dropping them to their last bracket of stats if not killing them outright. Of course, if you are like me, who always roll extremely bad even with rerolls, then this combination might not even take 3W from a rhino.

The combination would run into trouble when aganist something with a decent Inv save. Like a Flyrant or Dreadknight Master, that 4+ inv gonna make the 4 Gravs dealing only 6W on it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.

2. And what about bloodletters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.

But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.

Assuming reroll on everything, in a minimum squad of 16 Grav shots and 2 Bolter shots (I dunno what you do with your Sergeant), that's only 3.8 MEQ dead. If there's a full amount of Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for gaks and giggles let's run the numbers) that's 4.7. So Death Company aren't gonna care at all, but minimum Vanguard might. That's really about it.

Re-Read the challenge and multiply grav results by 2 for the D3 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow. "

I'd just charge them with Vanguards w/SS. That's what they are for. To charge gak just like that without extra steps. Extra steps is how marines lose and lose big.

I mean, in a perfect world, I would play IG and just never charge anyone ever. But you know, perfect world and all that.

You're proving my point man. You do something other than the scenario I provided because the overwatch is dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.

2. And what about bloodletters?

You misuderstood. By all mens. Charge them. SHOOT them first. Even better then locking up a 240 point unit is removing a bunch of it's effectiveness before doing so.

I understood perfectly. But Tyranids are a "multiple threats" type of army and sometimes you want to spend your firepower elsewhere.

Then we have 4.7 Reivers dead against a 10 mean squad I described (4 Grav Cannons and 14 Bolter shots)? 3 Tactical Terminators dead? 2 Assault Terminators dead?

So no, Overwatch really isn't that dangerous.

To quote yourselt:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You WEREN'T reading.

If you look yet again you'll see I said "Or try feeling great about charging a hero at a Devastator squad with GravCannons and Chapter Master or G-man nearby."

Which is beside the point now, considering that you claim a single Grav Cannons is something "to worry about" in the other thread when it averages 1.5 wounds vs. MEQ, yet here when overwatch threatens three times that amount it "really isn't dangerous". To quote you again:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Consistency is a thing ya know?

Martel732 wrote:
I already stated there were a few specific kinds of overwatch that are threats.

That's all there needs to be for it to merit inclusion in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
BTW, I've never seen a devastator squad of grav in a Bobby G list. Because grav kinda sucks now.

Grav Cannons are better anti GEQ than a Heavy Bolter, Better anti-Elite than Plasma, and Better Anti-Tank than a Lascannon.

10 Reapers no upgrades average 5.9 MEQ kills.

4 Grav Cannons no upgrades average 5.89 MEQ kills.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.

2. And what about bloodletters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Typically, I ignore overwatch outside of crazy gak like Dscythes. I don't lose games to overwatch. I lose games to the fallback mechanic. There is little payoff to making the assault. That's a much bigger problem than overwatch.

But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow.

Assuming reroll on everything, in a minimum squad of 16 Grav shots and 2 Bolter shots (I dunno what you do with your Sergeant), that's only 3.8 MEQ dead. If there's a full amount of Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for gaks and giggles let's run the numbers) that's 4.7. So Death Company aren't gonna care at all, but minimum Vanguard might. That's really about it.

Re-Read the challenge and multiply grav results by 2 for the D3 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"But I assume you wouldn't charge G-man GravDevs with a hero without attempting to mitigate Overwatch somehow. "

I'd just charge them with Vanguards w/SS. That's what they are for. To charge gak just like that without extra steps. Extra steps is how marines lose and lose big.

I mean, in a perfect world, I would play IG and just never charge anyone ever. But you know, perfect world and all that.

You're proving my point man. You do something other than the scenario I provided because the overwatch is dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Most important and being ignored, why the feth would you charge gaurdsmen into a 30 devilgaunt blob before shooting them? 10 guardsmen in a range where they can charge the gaunts can whittle down their numbers by a not insignificant amount. And thats just assuming these 2 units are the only things interacting with each other.

In practical terms there is no point where you should ever be charging 30 devilgaunts. Its unrealistic.

1. Stopping a 240 point unit from shooting by engaging it with a 40 point unit is sureley more efficient than shooting it with multiple units. Without overwatch, it would be a lot more viable for the guard, and on occasion, could be the right move.

2. And what about bloodletters?

You misuderstood. By all mens. Charge them. SHOOT them first. Even better then locking up a 240 point unit is removing a bunch of it's effectiveness before doing so.

I understood perfectly. But Tyranids are a "multiple threats" type of army and sometimes you want to spend your firepower elsewhere.

Then we have 4.7 Reivers dead against a 10 mean squad I described (4 Grav Cannons and 14 Bolter shots)? 3 Tactical Terminators dead? 2 Assault Terminators dead?

So no, Overwatch really isn't that dangerous.

To quote yourselt:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You WEREN'T reading.

If you look yet again you'll see I said "Or try feeling great about charging a hero at a Devastator squad with GravCannons and Chapter Master or G-man nearby."

Which is beside the point now, considering that you claim a single Grav Cannons is something "to worry about" in the other thread when it averages 1.5 wounds vs. MEQ, yet here when overwatch threatens three times that amount it "really isn't dangerous". To quote you again:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Consistency is a thing ya know?

Martel732 wrote:
I already stated there were a few specific kinds of overwatch that are threats.

That's all there needs to be for it to merit inclusion in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
BTW, I've never seen a devastator squad of grav in a Bobby G list. Because grav kinda sucks now.

Grav Cannons are better anti GEQ than a Heavy Bolter, Better anti-Elite than Plasma, and Better Anti-Tank than a Lascannon.

10 Reapers no upgrades average 5.9 MEQ kills.

4 Grav Cannons no upgrades average 5.89 MEQ kills.

1. I could probably charge a Hero into that and be alright. Rowboat nearby the minimum squad only inflicts 4 wounds on the hero with a 4++, and 3 with a 3++. I'm pretty comfortable with that.
2. Grav Cannons are a threat with regular shooting. Nothing is a threat on Overwatch besides DScythes (which is the exception, not the rule obviously), even rerolling every frickin roll.
3. Grav Cannons are not better anti-GEQ. The Grav Cannon is 25 (?) and two Heavy Bolters are 20 points. The Grav Cannon kills 1.8 Guard and the Heavy Bolters 2.2. If the Grav Cannon is closer to 30 points (because I want to say it was 25 or 28), three Heavy Bolters kill 3.3 Guard. Grav Cannons will outperform Plasma outside 12", but once inside Plasma Guns get the benefit of having more strength doing more work. I won't argue on Lascannons as you're correct in the math on that one; you pay for the convenience of having 48" for the weapon.
I'm not dismissing Grav Cannons as an awesome weapon, but to say they're that much better was a severe overstatement (especially the Heavy Bolter part, which was super absurd).

Let me know when Devastator Squads can get 8 Heavy Bolters.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Let me know when Devastator Squads can get 8 Heavy Bolters.

If you're not comparing an even number of points you're being dishonest.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Let me know when Devastator Squads can get 8 Heavy Bolters.

If you're not comparing an even number of points you're being dishonest.

Sad attempt to score argument point is sad.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Let me know when Devastator Squads can get 8 Heavy Bolters.

If you're not comparing an even number of points you're being dishonest.

Sad attempt to score argument point is sad.

No it isn't.

Otherwise your point is moot anyway, as a Volcano Cannon is better anti-GEQ than your precious grav-cannons anyway, so yeah.

Well, you do have to account for the platform they come on.

Grav Cannons are 25 points, right? And Heavy Bolters 10?

So that's 170 for 20 Grav shots, and 220 for 32 H.Bolter shots.

Finding the LCM, it is... 3740 points. Right... Was hoping for a lower number, but it'll do.

So that's 440 Grav Shots as compared to 544 H.Bolter shots.

Grav
440 shots
880/3 hits
1,760/9 wounds
1,760/9 dead GEQs, or 195.56.

Heavy Bolter
544 shots
1,088/3 hits
2,176/9 wounds
10,880/54 unsaved wounds, for 201.48 dead GEQ.

Heavy Bolters are about 3% more efficient than Grav Cannons at killing GEQs when taking on Devastators.

How did this go from devilgaunts to grav devs?

Martel732 wrote:
How did this go from devilgaunts to grav devs?

Because the list I'm doing right now uses Grav Cannons and he thinks it's a "gotcha".

I'm the guy that used Tyberos in 6th/7th. I know what's bad and what's good.

 Lance845 wrote:
Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.

This was out of the blue. Can we drop overwatch and get back to why no one is paying 80 ppm for these things?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, you do have to account for the platform they come on.

Grav Cannons are 25 points, right? And Heavy Bolters 10?

So that's 170 for 20 Grav shots, and 220 for 32 H.Bolter shots.

Finding the LCM, it is... 3740 points. Right... Was hoping for a lower number, but it'll do.

So that's 440 Grav Shots as compared to 544 H.Bolter shots.

Grav
440 shots
880/3 hits
1,760/9 wounds
1,760/9 dead GEQs, or 195.56.

Heavy Bolter
544 shots
1,088/3 hits
2,176/9 wounds
10,880/54 unsaved wounds, for 201.48 dead GEQ.

Heavy Bolters are about 3% more efficient than Grav system at killing GEQs when taking on Devastators.

Grav Cannons are 28, so score a few extra percent on the Heavy Bolter side of it. But it takes a certain kind of dakka-ite to call my statement "super absurd" when I think it's pretty clear that I'm comparing a single weapon to a single weapon. A Grav Cannon does average more kills than a Heavy Bolter againat GEQs.

Otherwise the conversation about Grav Cannons is simply to illustrate that overwatch can't just be ignored by elites. Lighter troops have to contend with it all the time, Daemons, Gaunts, Orks all have to contend with it vs. Lighter weapons. To say that overwatch is a waste of time is pretty foolhardy, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How did this go from devilgaunts to grav devs?

Because the list I'm doing right now uses Grav Cannons and he thinks it's a "gotcha".

I'm the guy that used Tyberos in 6th/7th. I know what's bad and what's good.

It had nothing to do with you. But when you jumped on it it just became easy to point out your hypocrisy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.

This was out of the blue. Can we drop overwatch and get back to why no one is paying 80 ppm for these things?

I pay it. I don't know what the exact cost of Dark Reapers is but I think a ten man squad is comparable cost to a small Dev squad with Grav+Cherub in a Pod, and they do comparable damage to MEQ/elites.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, you do have to account for the platform they come on.

Grav Cannons are 25 points, right? And Heavy Bolters 10?

So that's 170 for 20 Grav shots, and 220 for 32 H.Bolter shots.

Finding the LCM, it is... 3740 points. Right... Was hoping for a lower number, but it'll do.

So that's 440 Grav Shots as compared to 544 H.Bolter shots.

Grav
440 shots
880/3 hits
1,760/9 wounds
1,760/9 dead GEQs, or 195.56.

Heavy Bolter
544 shots
1,088/3 hits
2,176/9 wounds
10,880/54 unsaved wounds, for 201.48 dead GEQ.

Heavy Bolters are about 3% more efficient than Grav system at killing GEQs when taking on Devastators.

Grav Cannons are 28, so score a few extra percent on the Heavy Bolter side of it. But it takes a certain kind of dakka-ite to call my statement "super absurd" when I think it's pretty clear that I'm comparing a single weapon to a single weapon. A Grav Cannon does average more kills than a Heavy Bolter againat GEQs.

Otherwise the conversation about Grav Cannons is simply to illustrate that overwatch can't just be ignored by elites. Lighter troops have to contend with it all the time, Daemons, Gaunts, Orks all have to contend with it vs. Lighter weapons. To say that overwatch is a waste of time is pretty foolhardy, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How did this go from devilgaunts to grav devs?

Because the list I'm doing right now uses Grav Cannons and he thinks it's a "gotcha".

I'm the guy that used Tyberos in 6th/7th. I know what's bad and what's good.

It had nothing to do with you. But when you jumped on it it just became easy to point out your hypocrisy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Overwatch is a waste of everyones time. Nobody is detered by it. The chances of overwatch acomplishing anything meaningful is slim to none.

This was out of the blue. Can we drop overwatch and get back to why no one is paying 80 ppm for these things?

I pay it. I don't know what the exact cost of Dark Reapers is but I think a ten man squad is comparable cost to a small Dev squad with Grav+Cherub in a Pod, and they do comparable damage to MEQ/elites.

Single weapon vs single weapon a Battle Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, Thunderfire Cannon, Heavy Flamer, etc. is better against GEQ than a Heavy Bolter. That's not how you check these things though. It never WAS.

That's true, because I can't get battlecannons on my Devastators. :/

 Insectum7 wrote:
That's true, because I can't get battlecannons on my Devastators. :/

Are you purposely being obtuse at this point? You're missing the point and clearly on purpose.

Yeah, you can't just ignore points costs. Marines are, in pretty much every way, better than Guardsmen model per model.

But point for point... They're not.

To make drop pods great:

1. Increase their points back to 100 with the stormbolter as standard.
2. Allow the owning player to spend reinforcement points on the contents, albeit not on HQs. Possibly not on elites either since that can get weird.

So:

Gaunts got you down? two tac squads with flamers
Lost your Anti Tank assets? Git yew some lascannons boy
Not enough Vanguard in your life? Add some tooled up crusaders to the mix

Fluffy, dangerous, and with the minimum 50% of the army on the board rule, a bit difficult to abuse since they still have to be taken as dedicated transports (so if you want to abuse cheap IG troops/elites/hq choices, you lose your doctrine AND your chapter tactics). 80 points for a glorified jump pack is a waste. A 100 point tax for whatever you need, is a perfectly acceptable overhead.