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Made in us
Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

What would it take to make drop pods useful? Or, what would it take for you to include drop pods in your competitive lists?

My proposal:

1. Drop pods can carry a total of 10 wounds. Since there is no metric for size in this game, it doesn't make sense to restrict Centurions, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts from riding in drop pods. Nor does it make sense to restrict Primaris from riding in drop pods. This does mean you could have other vehicles riding inside a drop pod.

2. Units disembarking from a drop pod must be wholly within 3" of the pod. The drop pod must be set up 9" away from the nearest enemy unit but this restriction does not apply to the units inside of the pod itself.

3. The drop pod itself is taken as a Fast Attack choice.

I think these changes would make drop pods pretty solid, and useful at their current exorbitant cost.

What do you think?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:09:49


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Or just make them 35 pts again. Done.
   
Made in us
Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

Martel732 wrote:
Or just make them 35 pts again. Done.


NO!

Because then they're just relegated to deep strike rhino. We don't need redundant transport options.

A method of deep striking assault centurions would be fantastic. Or Furioso Dreadnoughts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:11:32


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




You mean other than playing raven guard?
   
Made in us
Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

Martel732 wrote:
You mean other than playing raven guard?


Screw Raven Guard.

Drop pods were nerfed into oblivion in 8th edition, I really like my pods. I want them to be useful.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





There is plenty of Fluff justification for not allowing Centurions, Terminators and Primaris into drop pods. They simply do not fit. Drop Pods are STC tekyology and Mars would WTFBBQPurge any chapter that dared to add bigger seats.

However, #2 I would agree with if it also restricted charging. The 9" limit is to ensure that for the most part units only have a 25% chance of making combat (a shade under 50% for re-rollers) from a deep strike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:20:16


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I don't care about fluff justifications, though. They literally mean nothing in the crunch.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:21:12


 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Martel732 wrote:
I don't care about fluff justifications, though. They literally mean nothing in the crunch.
The whole point of the Crunch is to give us a game to play with the Fluff. The crunch IS affected by the fluff, no matter how much you might cry about it. The reason why Land Raiders don't have 32 lascannons is due to fluff, the reason why Space Marines don't get to use Leman Russes is due to fluff.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

Fluff is a weaksauce justification for anything considering the current state of 8th edition relative to fluff.

"This is a critical battle, and the imperium hangs on the result. Why send in marines? The guard is already here." -No one in fluff, ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't care about fluff justifications, though. They literally mean nothing in the crunch.
The whole point of the Crunch is to give us a game to play with the Fluff. The crunch IS affected by the fluff, no matter how much you might cry about it. The reason why Land Raiders don't have 32 lascannons is due to fluff, the reason why Space Marines don't get to use Leman Russes is due to fluff.


Nothing in marines mirrors its fluff properly.

Are you only in favor of fluff restrictions when it slights marines? Your bias is showing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:23:14


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 BaconCatBug wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't care about fluff justifications, though. They literally mean nothing in the crunch.
The whole point of the Crunch is to give us a game to play with the Fluff. The crunch IS affected by the fluff, no matter how much you might cry about it. The reason why Land Raiders don't have 32 lascannons is due to fluff, the reason why Space Marines don't get to use Leman Russes is due to fluff.


Funny. I didn't see anywhere in the fluff that BA always lose to Eldar. Yet, that's what happened for two editions. I'm not crying, I'm simply stating the fact of the matter that it doesn't matter. I know very little fluff, and I'm not hampered by this in the game at all.

The fluff is governed by the whims of a C-list author. The crunch is governed by math. Not related.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:25:29


 
   
Made in us
Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

Martel732 wrote:

The fluff is governed by the whims of a C-list author. The crunch is governed by math. Not related.

This right here should be the nail in the coffin on this tangent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:26:24


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





 Marmatag wrote:
Nothing in marines mirrors its fluff properly.

Are you only in favor of fluff restrictions when it slights marines? Your bias is showing.
Is your IRL name IMAX? Because you're projecting hard.

Drop Pods have always been limited to normal marines. There is no reason to expand them to non-normal marines, either crunch-wise or fluff-wise.

There is a good reason why they don't allow those types into pods. If you can't see that there is no point in debating.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




If we limit it to normal marines, it's a 35 pt model again. No one cares about regular marines being dropped. Ever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:31:31


 
   
Made in us
Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Nothing in marines mirrors its fluff properly.

Are you only in favor of fluff restrictions when it slights marines? Your bias is showing.

Drop Pods have always been limited to normal marines. There is no reason to expand them to non-normal marines, either crunch-wise or fluff-wise.

There is a good reason why they don't allow those types into pods. If you can't see that there is no point in debating.


No, in 7th edition they were not limited to normal marines only. They allowed centurions, and dreadnoughts.

Currently drop pods are in 0% of the tournament placing marine lists. There is a reason for that. In their current incantation they are useless. Do you want the unit to stay useless?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:32:40


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I miss the old drop fragnought for sure.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Marmatag wrote:
What would it take to make drop pods useful? Or, what would it take for you to include drop pods in your competitive lists?

My proposal:

1. Drop pods can carry a total of 10 wounds. Since there is no metric for size in this game, it doesn't make sense to restrict Centurions, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts from riding in drop pods. Nor does it make sense to restrict Primaris from riding in drop pods. This does mean you could have other vehicles riding inside a drop pod.

2. Units disembarking from a drop pod must be wholly within 3" of the pod. The drop pod must be set up 9" away from the nearest enemy unit but this restriction does not apply to the units inside of the pod itself.

3. The drop pod itself is taken as a Fast Attack choice.

I think these changes would make drop pods pretty solid, and useful at their current exorbitant cost.

What do you think?


I think #1 gets a bit wonky do units embarked in transports count toward the 10 wounds? Or can I have a Razorback with 6 marines embarked? Personally I would just make primaris count as 2 models for all SM transports, and allow pods to take dreads again. The wound count thing also causes issue with putting characters with units in the pod.

#2 is too good, it would allow for 5" charges coming out of a pod, tons of flamers in auto hit range.

#3 is fine it allows them to help fill detachments, although it has downsides as well.

Part of me almost feels like they should no longer be an actual unit, but part of a stratagem that allows you to deepstrike a unit. But beyond that as a unit they really just need to be cheaper.
   
Made in us
Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

Breng77 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
What would it take to make drop pods useful? Or, what would it take for you to include drop pods in your competitive lists?

My proposal:

1. Drop pods can carry a total of 10 wounds. Since there is no metric for size in this game, it doesn't make sense to restrict Centurions, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts from riding in drop pods. Nor does it make sense to restrict Primaris from riding in drop pods. This does mean you could have other vehicles riding inside a drop pod.

2. Units disembarking from a drop pod must be wholly within 3" of the pod. The drop pod must be set up 9" away from the nearest enemy unit but this restriction does not apply to the units inside of the pod itself.

3. The drop pod itself is taken as a Fast Attack choice.

I think these changes would make drop pods pretty solid, and useful at their current exorbitant cost.

What do you think?


I think #1 gets a bit wonky do units embarked in transports count toward the 10 wounds? Or can I have a Razorback with 6 marines embarked? Personally I would just make primaris count as 2 models for all SM transports, and allow pods to take dreads again. The wound count thing also causes issue with putting characters with units in the pod.

#2 is too good, it would allow for 5" charges coming out of a pod, tons of flamers in auto hit range.

#3 is fine it allows them to help fill detachments, although it has downsides as well.

Part of me almost feels like they should no longer be an actual unit, but part of a stratagem that allows you to deepstrike a unit. But beyond that as a unit they really just need to be cheaper.


The embarked total would include the units inside the razorback. As far as characters go, that would diminish the ability to deep strike characters, but that is okay, because rule #2 makes a successful charge very likely.

Another option would be simply that they cannot transport non-walker vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
I miss the old drop fragnought for sure.


Agreed. It was super cool.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:39:08


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think something like "impact crater: terrain w/in 3" counts as a crater (grants cover)" would be a cool rule, units are -1 to hit 1st turn after disembarking (call it dust storm or something), target painters (something like markerlights?) assault 3, on a 4+ friendly units w/in 3" re-roll 1s vs target?

Hell give them firing ports and don't force units to disembark right away? 5 firing ports?

A better weapon than storm bolters on top (2x heavy bolters, assault cannon, hurricane bolters?) allow them to use the tau for the better good and get overwatch against charges declared at units w/in 3"?

Easiest answer is to drop the price to 35 points (more expensive jump packs) but I don't think making marines cheap helps them fulfill their niche.

There's a million ways they could be cool if not useful but the SM codex seems to be a rushed boring port of 7th...
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Marines aren't a real elite army anyway. That goes to death guard and Eldar.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Putting Terminators inside drop pods is silly. Firstly for fluff reasons.
Secondly - They already have deepstrike!

Putting dreadnoughts inside dropods is perfectly reasonable and fluffy. I'm told Forgeworld already sells a Dread Drop pod to make this possible.

Sternguard in dropods are things people care about. Lowering the pts cost to 35 or so is reasonable.

I quite like the idea of making them take up a FA slot, too. That's clever.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Lowering them to 35 points is NOT reasonable. It's insanity.

We did a side by side comparison with a Tyrannocyte. The drop pod is not 1/4 the value of a tyrannoctye and it's definitely a better deepstriking transport.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Maybe the tyrannocyte should be 35 as well.

As it stands, no one is using drop pods. As long as that continues, I expect GW to keep reducing their price.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 19:28:17


 
   
Made in us
Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

 Lance845 wrote:
Lowering them to 35 points is NOT reasonable. It's insanity.

We did a side by side comparison with a Tyrannocyte. The drop pod is not 1/4 the value of a tyrannoctye and it's definitely a better deepstriking transport.


The Tyrannocyte can carry a lot of things, including monstrous creatures. It can also do things on the table after it lands.

The drop pod is very restricted in what it can do.

They are totally different units.

The Tyrannocyte is also overcosted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 19:32:58


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Carrying only marines makes it pretty damn weak, because base marines are weak.
   
Made in us
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran





Mississippi

8E Deepstrike rules pretty much made drop pods unneccesary.

I’d be inclined to say the best way to fix them would be to allow models to deploy from them (via deepstrike) for 1 CP - 2 CP if the pod can actually do something (provide cover, heavy bolter or deathwind launcher weapon).

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Marmatag wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Lowering them to 35 points is NOT reasonable. It's insanity.

We did a side by side comparison with a Tyrannocyte. The drop pod is not 1/4 the value of a tyrannoctye and it's definitely a better deepstriking transport.


The Tyrannocyte can carry a lot of things, including monstrous creatures. It can also do things on the table after it lands.

The drop pod is very restricted in what it can do.

They are totally different units.

The Tyrannocyte is also overcosted.


No, The Tyrannocyte can bring a single unit of up to 20 model or a single monstrous creature. Not 2 units of warriors and a prime, or 1 unit of genestealers and a brood lord. Or the swarmlord and his tyrant guard. 1 unit. Always.

The drop pod can bring 10 models in any configuration. Including buffing characters.

Both units are first and foremost a delivery system. For it's point the Tyrannocyte isn't worth much of anything else. It's why you don't see them on the table. The VERY moment it can carry more than 1 unit you will see them all over the place.

115-125ish for the Tcyte. 90 for the drop pod. You really think it's should be 35? Pft. Again, insanity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 19:54:25


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The Tyrannocyte is not remotely worth 115-125. Ever played against guard? Yeah....deep striking is not that valuable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 19:58:02


 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine






I'd say just drop the points a bit; not quite as far as 35, but maybe 60-65 or so; while this makes the Rhino slightly more expensive, it's a more useful unit to have throughout a battle, whereas the drop pod is basically done once it lands except for a weak shooting attack.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I'd try it at 60 and see if gets use. My prediction: no.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Martel732 wrote:
The Tyrannocyte is not remotely worth 115-125. Ever played against guard? Yeah....deep striking is not that valuable.


The Tyrannocyte WOULD be worth that IF I could fill it with multiple units.

The ONLY thing holding the Tcyte back is it's single unit transport.

Drop Pods several people in the LAST thread about this said they use drop pods every game to great effect.

You cannot just pretend that a wall you place down with t6 w8 sv3+ has no value what so ever. The fact that it's 3+ bs with a gun isn't worth 0 points.

No, it can't move. No, it's not bristling with fire power. But you can place it anywhere and deploy your guys from it.

Just like last time, SM players have edition lag. They are used to their drop pods costing 35 on paper, getting them for free from a formation, and having them have a better version of deepstrike then everyone else. Drop Pods got put in line with everyone elses drop pod equivalents and the deepstrike rules normalized everyones ability to deepstrike and now your upset by comparison.

Black Templar could load this thing up with a crusader squad, the Emps Champion, a Librarian, etc etc...

It's not JUST tac marines. It's ANY infantry including all your characters.

MAYBE 80 points. MAYBE. But if the Dpod is worth 80 then the Tcyte should be 100 with it's guns attached and be able to mix units like you do.

35.... wut?

   
 
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