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Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Martel732 wrote:
I don't know. It's all in context. If I'm paying 80 pts for a one use drop for 10 meqs, those meqs better be able to do some pretty fancy stuff. And they just can't. I also don't think old marines will get any love in order to pimp primaris. Maybe you could buff marines to give me 80 pts of value, but it seems easier to just make it much cheaper to reflect its crapiness.


But ITS not crappy. IT does it's job with a durability and a gun that makes it's price point fair. The TCyte shouldn't cost less if I choose to put biovores into it.

   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It is also crappy. 80 pts? Really? That's a bad joke even in 8th. It's just even WORSE because there's nothing worthwhile to put in it.
   
Made in de
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Germany

The only drop pod which makes sense is the FW dreadnought drop pod. Include a raven guard detachment to deepstrike any raven guard INFANTRY with a stratagem. Any SM can use JP to deepstrike. First costs no points, second is much cheaper than a drop pod, gives the infantry 12" move, and the ability to shoot after falling back. Drop pods need a rule change to include heavy infantry like centurions or aggressors, or a massive point drop, to like 30.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/25 09:58:08


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Wait, are people honestly arguing that min-sized Crusader Squads in pods are decent? Are we playing the same game here? Do peoe really not understand what a dumpster fire Marine melee units are this edition?

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Longtime Dakkanaut




p5freak wrote:
The only drop pod which makes sense is the FW dreadnought drop pod. Include a raven guard detachment to deepstrike any raven guard INFANTRY with a stratagem. Any SM can use JP to deepstrike. First costs no points, second is much cheaper than a drop pod, gives the infantry 12" move, and the ability to shoot after falling back. Drop pods need a rule change to include heavy infantry like centurions or aggressors, or a massive point drop, to like 30.


I mean, the first one costs no points, but it does eat up command points pretty quickly if you're infiltrating a significant portion of your force, and it leave you vulnerable if your opponent gets first turn. The drop pod is a safer alternative that ensures you'll get a safe chance at an alpha strike with whatever you put in it. Not that the RG stratagem isn't good (it is), but the drop pod is an arguably safer alternative that utilizes a different resource. Plus, not everyone plays RG.

The second is just completely untrue unless the new codex stealthily slipped in the option to take jump packs on sternguard, tacs, devastators, etc. Obviously you're better off taking jump packs for units that can take them, but plenty of units can't.

And just to clarify, are you of the opinion that it should cost about 15 points to deepstrike anything that can ride in a pod? Because that's what the two sternguard squads (or whatever) would be paying at that point. I personally feel like 15 points to deepstrike a squad is kind of on the cheap side, but you may feel otherwise.

I'm really not against centurions, etc. riding in them though. Sure, you'd have to build special chairs for them, but that doesn't seem like a huge deal.
   
Made in de
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Germany

Wyldhunt wrote:

I mean, the first one costs no points, but it does eat up command points pretty quickly if you're infiltrating a significant portion of your force, and it leave you vulnerable if your opponent gets first turn.


There are plenty of ways to get/save command points. All you need to do is play a mixed army. Deploy them out of sight of the enemy if you dont get first turn.

Wyldhunt wrote:

The drop pod is a safer alternative that ensures you'll get a safe chance at an alpha strike with whatever you put in it. Not that the RG stratagem isn't good (it is), but the drop pod is an arguably safer alternative that utilizes a different resource. Plus, not everyone plays RG.


Another (expensive) way is the tallarn ambush stratagem. Place a stormlord in ambush along with infantry embarked on it, and it pops up on your turn. Dont play only one faction.

Wyldhunt wrote:

The second is just completely untrue unless the new codex stealthily slipped in the option to take jump pack on sternguard, tacs, devastators, etc. Obviously you're better off taking jump packs for units that can take them, but plenty of units can't.


BA company veterans can use JP, and you can outfit them with pretty much everything, except heavy weapons. Dont play only one faction. Everyone can use vanguard vets, play em as dark angels, give a 10 model unit 20 plasma pistols, deepstrike em. Next turn use the weapons from the dark age stratagem, which increases plasma damage by 1, overcharge, reroll 1s (DA can when they didnt move that turn), whatever you target is, is gone. Dont play only one faction.

Wyldhunt wrote:

And just to clarify, are you of the opinion that it should cost about 15 points to deepstrike anything that can ride in a pod? Because that's what the two sternguard squads (or whatever) would be paying at that point. I personally feel like 15 points to deepstrike a squad is kind of on the cheap side, but you may feel otherwise.


No, not 15. I think somewhere in the 30 range is fine. There are other options to deepstrike which are cheaper/different/better.

   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Your argument would be a lot more honest if you'd just said "buy this other army where things can deep strike and mix it into your other army". Even then you can't Deep Strike Sternguard.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in de
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Germany

A 5 model unit of sternguards with drop pod is 173 pts. A 5 model unit of BA company vets with plasmaguns and JP is 147 pts. The vets have 12" move, can fly, still shoot after fallback, they have S7 AP-3 weapons, and a chainsword for +1 attack in CC. Even with power swords or power axes they are 172 pts. Clearly superior in every way for the same points, except weapon range.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

And the Sternguard-specific stratagem.

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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




And the fact that those models will likely be illegal in 9th.
   
Made in us
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Little Rock, Arkansas

Martel732 wrote:
And the fact that those models will likely be illegal in 9th.


To be fair, edition changes are just as likely to completely bone a unit and make it non-functional anyway, so might as well live for the present.

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Germany

Martel732 wrote:
And the fact that those models will likely be illegal in 9th.


Until then i will have fun with them. You can stay away from them until 9th comes out in 3-5 years.
   
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Personally just make them cheaper OR allow them to risk a close by deep strike/allow disembarking close to the enemy then 9.

since no one can deep strike normal within 9 i feel like they should get something after losing that gyro rule.

OR what would be funny would be if they deep strike units within some distance takes mortal wounds from the blast pressure

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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 Desubot wrote:
Personally just make them cheaper OR allow them to risk a close by deep strike/allow disembarking close to the enemy then 9.

since no one can deep strike normal within 9 i feel like they should get something after losing that gyro rule.

OR what would be funny would be if they deep strike units within some distance takes mortal wounds from the blast pressure


A closer deepstrike (~6-7") would actually make them worth the 85 points, since then no matter what marines you put inside of it, all of them have a much better chance to actually make use of the generalist statline. It also gives marines an effective delivery system for flamers, which they currently lack, and that adjustment would at the same time give them different options for dealing with hordes than asscan razorspam.

As someone who plays a bodies-heavy RG list in HH, and played a bodies-heavy RG list in 7th, the drop pod's biggest contribution then was being able to get guys where you needed them, something the 9" deadzone bubbles cause massive headaches with (it's not uncommon to have most of an entire side of the board denied while they would have been perfectly servicable drop points in 7th)

Ultimately the current 8th edition rules don't reflect something the drop pod has been until now: it was one of the few ways in the game of striking close to enemy lines without needing to fear a mishap.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
And the fact that those models will likely be illegal in 9th.

Why on Earth would they become illegal?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And the fact that those models will likely be illegal in 9th.

Why on Earth would they become illegal?


jump pack company vets for blood angels are currently only supported via index. Martel's assumption is that 9th will completely invalidate any options preserved by the indexes in 8th
   
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WindstormSCR wrote:
[

Ultimately the current 8th edition rules don't reflect something the drop pod has been until now: it was one of the few ways in the game of striking close to enemy lines without needing to fear a mishap.


Is that really a problem though? In 7th, losing a unit to deepstrike was annoying and generally diminished at least one player's enjoyment of the game. I know that I never felt good about my opponent losing X% of their army without even deploying it. Drop pods being able to stack up in your face or use existing units to avoid scattering off target when they otherwise would while everyone else was left splattering themselves across the pavement on re-entry always smelled a little sour.

This edition, almost everything that deepstrikes can do so safely but also has to stay far enough away to make it improbable that you'll get a ton of charges off out of deepstrike. Which seems about right. Should drop pods have some super duper extra special rule that lets them stick pinpoint landings form orbit and reliably make charges out of deepstrike just because a previous codex in a previous edition gave them something along those lines? Surely assault marines should have been at least as good at landing in a general area without dying as the guy hastily adjusting course in a metal box as part of orbital re-entry.

Or do you disagree? Reasonable people certainly could. So far, I haven't seen a solid argument for why a pod is unreasonable at its points cost other than, "The things I put inside it are bad for their points." Which again, seems like an issue with other units rather than the drop pod. I would absolutely field drop pods as transports for my aeldari or daemons if I could.
   
Made in de
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Germany

Wyldhunt wrote:

This edition, almost everything that deepstrikes can do so safely but also has to stay far enough away to make it improbable that you'll get a ton of charges off out of deepstrike. Which seems about right. Should drop pods have some super duper extra special rule that lets them stick pinpoint landings form orbit and reliably make charges out of deepstrike just because a previous codex in a previous edition gave them something along those lines?


No, not because it was that way in 7th, because they cost 85 pts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 07:07:43


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I say to fix drop pods you just need 2 things.

A: allow them to land 6" away and cause a D3 mortal wounds to the closest enemy (within 8") when they land. Units disembarking cannot charge this turn.

B. Give them a stratagem that allows all your pods to count as one deployment and lets them drop down at the start of the move phase, but they cannot land in either players deployment zone. Units disembarking can then make a normal move+advance when they get out instead of just a regular disembark, however they still cannot charge. Probably a 3CP cost.

Keep the points as they are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 07:52:45


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My gripe is the cost.
You pay 85 pts for a delivery system for a squad that does alright, and then after you get a T6 storm bolter turret.
For the most part I've only gotten use out of a drop pod once to kill a tau commander in my backline with grav cannons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reivers pay 2 pts for deep strike
Assault marines pay 3pts for deep strike and 6" of extra movement. (Which frankly I think is a steal)
So for a capacity of 10 men that costs 20.
The storm bolter is 2
So is a immobile vehicle worth 63?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/30 07:12:19


 
   
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!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Marmatag wrote:


1. Drop pods can carry a total of 10 wounds. Since there is no metric for size in this game, it doesn't make sense to restrict Centurions, Terminators, or Dreadnoughts from riding in drop pods. Nor does it make sense to restrict Primaris from riding in drop pods. This does mean you could have other vehicles riding inside a drop pod.


What about other drop pods?
   
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






 fraser1191 wrote:
My gripe is the cost.
You pay 85 pts for a delivery system for a squad that does alright, and then after you get a T6 storm bolter turret.
For the most part I've only gotten use out of a drop pod once to kill a tau commander in my backline with grav cannons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reivers pay 2 pts for deep strike
Assault marines pay 3pts for deep strike and 6" of extra movement. (Which frankly I think is a steal)
So for a capacity of 10 men that costs 20.
The storm bolter is 2
So is a immobile vehicle worth 63?


Because dropping concentrated heavy and special weapons is worth more than dropping light assault troops.

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Drop pod just pays a lot for it's stats. If it becomes cheaper while remaining as durable, it becomes an issue because a marine player can just use pods to block points.
It's kinda identical to trukk's problems. It's too expensive to be an effective transport but it wouldn't be fair to have much cheaper trukks cause they'd be to good on their own.

So, for pods, if they had like 5 wounds with 4+ armor but were priced at 45-50 points, they'd be decent.
   
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 Marmatag wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Or just make them 35 pts again. Done.


NO!

Because then they're just relegated to deep strike rhino. We don't need redundant transport options.

A method of deep striking assault centurions would be fantastic. Or Furioso Dreadnoughts.


My first thought was about SW swoard&board dreads... being able to move 3" after deepstrike and then charge would be awesome for those things, even if you have to pay an extra 80 (or something) points for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
I say to fix drop pods you just need 2 things.

A: allow them to land 6" away and cause a D3 mortal wounds to the closest enemy (within 8") when they land. Units disembarking cannot charge this turn.

B. Give them a stratagem that allows all your pods to count as one deployment and lets them drop down at the start of the move phase, but they cannot land in either players deployment zone. Units disembarking can then make a normal move+advance when they get out instead of just a regular disembark, however they still cannot charge. Probably a 3CP cost.

Keep the points as they are.


The only thing that accomplishes is a massive middle finger to anyone who wants to play choppy marines. Anything not BA has trouble enough getting in CC as is, no need to hand out more favours to shooty armies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/04 21:05:19


 
   
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What marines want to get into melee besides BA?

DA melee is all on bikes, BT are just wannabe melee. Assault marines should have jumppacks on anyway and not be in a pod.
Rievers cant ride in pods. Assault termies and centaurians cant ride in pods.

I dont see an issue with that.

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East Bay, Ca, US

Can you please explain the value of assault centurions, or centurions in general, now that they can't ride in pods and their cost is astronomical?

Lots of units were hurt badly by the drop pod nerf-sledgehammer.

But this is a losing battle. If i've learned one thing on Dakka Dakka, is that people want bad things to stay bad.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Marmatag wrote:
Can you please explain the value of assault centurions, or centurions in general, now that they can't ride in pods and their cost is astronomical?

Lots of units were hurt badly by the drop pod nerf-sledgehammer.

But this is a losing battle. If i've learned one thing on Dakka Dakka, is that people want bad things to stay bad.


For the record, I don't actually have a problem with expanding the use of the drop pod to other units. some centurians, or a single dread. Sure. No problem.

My issue is the crazy suggestions. Breaking the 9" DS. Allowing movement after disembarkment. 35 points.

None of that makes the DP fair in comparison to any of the other armies out there. None of it fixes the actual issue you have with the DP (poor unit selection to ride in it. Tac marines being not great). I have seen enough good use with devestators out of it to say it's not useless now. But being a delivery method for a single unit is bs. I can agree with that. In the same way that I think the Tcytes issue is it's restrictive capacity I think the drop pods issue is its restrictive unit selection.

Open them up and they would be fine. These other suggestions are nonsense.

   
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Why let them take drop pods when GW could sell a mega drop pod that can inexplicably carry a dread unit of centurions and or primarus.

assturions got boned but its not like they were ever taken in drop pods. it was always devturions with grav cannons.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
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East Bay, Ca, US

A drop pod should thematically be able to land on top of whatever the marines would be fighting. forcing it to stay outside of 9" is the exact opposite of how they're pictured in every example of 40k anywhere.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

 
   
Made in us
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 Marmatag wrote:
A drop pod should thematically be able to land on top of whatever the marines would be fighting. forcing it to stay outside of 9" is the exact opposite of how they're pictured in every example of 40k anywhere.


Mortal wounds when deep striking into base contact

allow it to charge from orbit

lols ensue

(seriously you should be able to use pods offensively)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
 
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