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Martel732 wrote:
I don't pay that much attention to the lore, so it doesn't bother me that much. The "story" is arbitrary so it can continuously support the sale of plastic.

Fair enough. To me, and at least a good number of the other players, we've read a good chunk of the 700+ published stories (large and small, novels and magazine articles) and when something that's front and center (not just some outlier novella) is nonsensical to the established lore, that becomes problematic. When new units threaten to not enrich an established line but to instead remove more and more core units from either play or playability, that's problematic. Most don't mind a new type of unit becoming strong and don't mind a change or advancement in the lore... its just when it goes way too far, way too fast, that we start to ask for some restraint.

 Lobukia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't pay that much attention to the lore, so it doesn't bother me that much. The "story" is arbitrary so it can continuously support the sale of plastic.

Fair enough. To me, and at least a good number of the other players, we've read a good chunk of the 700+ published stories (large and small, novels and magazine articles) and when something that's front and center (not just some outlier novella) is nonsensical to the established lore, that becomes problematic. When new units threaten to not enrich an established line but to instead remove more and more core units from either play or playability, that's problematic. Most don't mind a new type of unit becoming strong and don't mind a change or advancement in the lore... its just when it goes way too far, way too fast, that we start to ask for some restraint.

The good news is that, despite them not receiving near enough credit for it, the introduction of Primaris from a crunch perspective is an amazing example of restraint from GW. They are not the clearly better in all ways marine the stories suggest - not for how few jobs they can achieve or how few of them you can physically field.

As such, it's hardly likely a new 'Primaris Terminator' unit will be just fine as a side grade from current Terminators.

Though if I were to put forward one of my biggest wishes...despite being an unabashed Primaris model fan boy (I love the aesthetic and the sculpts are beautiful), I would be extremely excited to see a new set of Indomitus Pattern standard Astartes units complete with proper proportions and anatomy.

Lemondish wrote:

The good news is that, despite them not receiving near enough credit for it, the introduction of Primaris from a crunch perspective is an amazing example of restraint from GW. They are not the clearly better in all ways marine the stories suggest - not for how few jobs they can achieve or how few of them you can physically field.

I would be extremely excited to see a new set of Indomitus Pattern standard Astartes units complete with proper proportions and anatomy.

Agreed on all accounts here. From a tabletop POV: I am very happy and pleased with the Primaris introduction, so far, if I knew it would stop. But, to me, the lore changes really herald a "MOAR MOAR" path for the Primaris.

There's a great story to be had here with some sort of fundamental problem being found with Primaris line, some chapters refusing to further use it. and the internal politics and rivalries of the IoM being turned up to 11.... and those old PA units have a good place in the game

I'm pretty sure the primaris marines are more resource intensive to bring up, and require more specialized equipment (the new power armor model) that can't necessarily be manufactured in a lot of places, and that's their downside and also why they aren't replacing all non-primaris marines. And that's enough of a downside as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of everything being "but then chaos/xenos touched it and now it sucks". That's just dull and uninteresting. In fact it's kinda more interesting that it's NOT broken and flawed, it's just expensive and unrealistic to replace all standard marines with.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm pretty sure the primaris marines are more resource intensive to bring up, and require more specialized equipment (the new power armor model) that can't necessarily be manufactured in a lot of places, and that's their downside and also why they aren't replacing all non-primaris marines. And that's enough of a downside as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of everything being "but then chaos/xenos touched it and now it sucks". That's just dull and uninteresting. In fact it's kinda more interesting that it's NOT broken and flawed, it's just expensive and unrealistic to replace all standard marines with.

If anything, the fiction seems to imply Primaris are easier to make. Due to the geneseed being cleaner, they take a wider variety of humans as aspirants with a lower failure rate. There won't be any reason for scout squads anymore essentially.

That doesn't mean existing marines are being . . . terminated. Seriously Primaris marines (in lore), are just marines who are a little taller and have 2 extra organs and a bionic enhancement. The only thing I can see being any sort of problem for the existing marines, is whether or not THEIR geneseed will be required anymore. Because the chapters have built that up to be a legacy thing within their institutional culture and they'll all find it really depressing (most likely) if their geneseed isn't going to be used anymore.

So, in a sheer points/statline perspective, what would a Primaris Terminator look like? Because we already have them, and they are called Custodes. From a stat line perspective.

S/T 5, 3 wounds, BS/WS 3+? So basically weaker Custodes? Now about the points, would 55-65pts per Primaris Terminator be worth it?

I don't want to see more gap filler units. Right now, SMs have Scouts, Tacs, Primaris, Regular Terminators, SuperTerminators, Jump pack terminators, Sneaky terminators, what more variation do you need? What would the purpose of PRimaris Terminators even be? For the same cost you can do better and just go Custodes.

 argonak wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'm pretty sure the primaris marines are more resource intensive to bring up, and require more specialized equipment (the new power armor model) that can't necessarily be manufactured in a lot of places, and that's their downside and also why they aren't replacing all non-primaris marines. And that's enough of a downside as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of everything being "but then chaos/xenos touched it and now it sucks". That's just dull and uninteresting. In fact it's kinda more interesting that it's NOT broken and flawed, it's just expensive and unrealistic to replace all standard marines with.

If anything, the fiction seems to imply Primaris are easier to make. Due to the geneseed being cleaner, they take a wider variety of humans as aspirants with a lower failure rate. There won't be any reason for scout squads anymore essentially.

That doesn't mean existing marines are being . . . terminated. Seriously Primaris marines (in lore), are just marines who are a little taller and have 2 extra organs and a bionic enhancement. The only thing I can see being any sort of problem for the existing marines, is whether or not THEIR geneseed will be required anymore. Because the chapters have built that up to be a legacy thing within their institutional culture and they'll all find it really depressing (most likely) if their geneseed isn't going to be used anymore.

Is that a real thing, no more Scouts?

 Apple Peel wrote:

Is that a real thing, no more Scouts?

Primaris have faster growth, they come up complete as far as we know, like the Corax Marines.
Role wise, the Vanguard formations completely replace the scouts.

CapRichard wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Is that a real thing, no more Scouts?

Primaris have faster growth, they come up complete as far as we know, like the Corax Marines.
Role wise, the Vanguard formations completely replace the scouts.

your data for the faster growth is? I've not heard that

Nothing is stated in the codex about Primaris having faster growth or scouts getting phased out as far as I can find. Is this headcannon or internet meme? It doesn't help that most of the times Primaris are mentioned they are the ones whom Cawl created while RG was in stasis. It might come from peoples anxiety about the potential that Primaris will replace the "normal" Space Marines

I seem to recall - apologies I can't find where - that the last few implants where during there service as a scout. I assume that new Primaris are created in the same way with the new organs implanted at certain stages rather than at the end (maybe that is why it is riskier for existing Space Marines). This is speculation however.

Onto Terminators. Maybe Terminator Armour is found out to be modifiable enough to fit Primaris?

Tbh I'm pretty salty that chaos terminators got primarified while my deathwing will most likely forever remain munchkins in favor of the primaris termies

redboi wrote:Tbh I'm pretty salty that chaos terminators got primarified while my deathwing will most likely forever remain munchkins in favor of the primaris termies

This

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:I don't want to see more gap filler units. Right now, SMs have Scouts, Tacs, Primaris, Regular Terminators, SuperTerminators, Jump pack terminators, Sneaky terminators, what more variation do you need? What would the purpose of PRimaris Terminators even be? For the same cost you can do better and just go Custodes.

This too

Some gaps, some diversity, some pause to replacing good models and good units with linear +1s

 Lobukia wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.

I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong place for warriors)

Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?

all upside is just boring. Feels like a 15 year old's fan fic enough already "uh RG wakes up and meets a long lost Mary Sue Friend(s) who heal him, give him better marines than the Emperor had, and Custodes for everyone, and he's the Imperial Regent now, and they have hover vehicles... and..." ugh stop. Downsides are great for balance (in both a narrative sense and a table top sense). Again, I like the Primaris Marines. I have a company+ painted up for my Ultramarines. But there's only so much old lore that needs to be invalidated and so much melbatoast "MOAR MAREENS" that I like seeing out there diluted by Marines++. Right now they are an unlimited resource. Keeping a few battlefield roles away from them and few capabilities untapped is just good game design and I hope restraint is used with the Primaris line. Terminators and 2+ armor would be a great place to see the "old marines" hold the line

I'm expecting at least the Lion, Russ, Perturabo, and Fulgrim to be making appearances soon, with a Primaris Rubicon upgrade to Azrael, Logan, and Dante (Though for narrative purposes I wouldn't be surprised to hear Dante dies during the procedure, and they get a new Primaris Chapter Master that works similar to and can't coexist with Dante.

Mortarion, Magnus and Gulliman exist (in the model range). Calgar just underwent a Primaris conversion. (Something that made me laugh at the shoulderpad with terminator honors in the Primaris marine boxed sets - I believe Calgar could be the only Primaris to have worn the armor). I'ts a matter of time until they give the other chapters, especially those divergent enough to get their own codex a return of their Primarch, and a Primarisation of their Chapter Master. After that, I'd expect to see all the other chapters (except for two) get their Primarch back, and the loyalist chapter masters get a Primarisation.

We might not see Horus. But I wouldn't bet on it. Money plus Heresy Part Two as a post Vigilus narrative make it attractive. I'm sure they're looking at 30K and holding meetings.

Dorn, Curze, Sanguinius, Horus, Manus and potentially Alpharius Omegon are "dead". Many of those are assumed dead with JFK level conspiracy theories. Dorn, and Alpharius are the easiest to resurrect because of that. Sanguinius and Horus are next easiest. Fabius Bile has been trying to clone Horus for years. Theories about Sanguinius and the Sanguinor are numerous. (Some of my favorites are that a 7 foot tall space marine was a body double for a 12 foot tall winged Primarch who didn't object when the other candidates (he thought of as his own sons) for the job were murdered to hide which candidate won the job) The only ones who would really need magic plot armor coming from nowhere would be Curze and Manus. Some chapters don't have a Primarch Special character at all and so could use the generic Primaris Chapter Master entry like they did with the generic Chapter Master/Captain entry before. Assuming they don't do another 180 and kill off the remaining Primarchs.