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Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Kayback wrote:


Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?



A lot of peope do. And those who don't are using the modern phones mostly to do things that older phones couldn't do. Like watching videos or making photos. No one forces them to use modern phones if they need to call or text someone.

Classic marines and primaris are and do the exact same thing, except one line could be squatted for no other reason than forcing players to re-buy their army. Not just a few units, but anything released before 3 years ago.

The comparison between phones and miniatures could be fair (maybe) if primaris marines were able to do something different than their older counterpart. Like moving by themselves, or replicating sounds when the player rolls to resolve their firepower (Bang!) maybe or when he fails some of their armor saves (Aaaarrgh!!). Or maybe they could just read your email or making coffee. At that point they'd be like post 2010 phones compared to older ones.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Jidmah wrote:

I still don't think all the advantages you listed will gain GW more than the money they would make by simply keeping a very small stock of oldmarines around and having another run of them whenever they find that stock to be running out. It's literally printing money at this point.


Small stock for a line with dozens of units is not cost-free. Demand was tanked or close to it. Prior to 2017, GW's gross income was steadily reducing.
Production, storage, rules development, etc have their own costs. After those, is opportunity cost. That of the effort to develop & balance rules instead of modern units or other armies and production of models required for the health of the game (non-marines) or which will sell well instead of minimarines.

That should be enough. The other stuff was window dressing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 10:54:07


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Cap'n Failboat wrote:

I'm not sure you understand that concept. Some models, as you point out, were legitimately out for over 20 years. I guess GW has a funny definition of rapid. That they sucked up extremely poor sales of WHFB's system for years as part of their nefarious planned obsolescence from the 90s. And you've equated a single line's termination now with planned obsolescence for every army. The clearly declining gross income for the company didn't spur them on either.

As an aside, I was legitimately surprised because when the Old World was exploded because it had been years since anyone in my area was playing it.

That's your response? That's standard operating procedure even before Primaris was a thing. As discussed, models/equivalent units in the line have been out for so long that needing to spend one more cent on a model was unnecessary for many of us.


I understand perfectly well, but clearly you don't.

Tactical marines could have lasted another 20 years but GW chose to phase them out to sell new models. That is precisely a move to make something obsolete and it is a very nasty anti consumer practice.

Truth is, GW grew while supporting old sculpts for decades, so it is not an unfeasible business model. They just choose to change it to make more money.

You cannot change facts or definitions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
Kayback wrote:


Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?



A lot of peope do. And those who don't are using the modern phones mostly to do things that older phones couldn't do. Like watching videos or making photos. No one forces them to use modern phones if they need to call or text someone.

Classic marines and primaris are and do the exact same thing, except one line could be squatted for no other reason than forcing players to re-buy their army. Not just a few units, but anything released before 3 years ago.

The comparison between phones and miniatures could be fair (maybe) if primaris marines were able to do something different than their older counterpart. Like moving by themselves, or replicating sounds when the player rolls to resolve their firepower (Bang!) maybe or when he fails some of their armor saves (Aaaarrgh!!). Or maybe they could just read your email or making coffee. At that point they'd be like post 2010 phones compared to older ones.


At this point I think we are hitting the "bad faith" wall. Primaris marines is a textbook example of planned obsolescence and there is no denying it.

The fact that some people do not care, or accept it because "that is what modern companies do" does not change it one bit. Just say that, don't attempt to hide it behind poor discussion tactics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 10:55:58


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Grey40k wrote:

Tactical marines could have lasted another 20 years but GW chose to phase them out to sell new models. That is precisely a move to make something obsolete and it is a very nasty anti consumer practice.

Truth is, GW grew while supporting old sculpts for decades, so it is not an unfeasible business model. They just choose to change it to make more money.

You cannot change facts or definitions.


Planned obsolescence is designing a product to have a limited lifespan and it's usually a quick timeframe not 20+ years. Apple's selection of components designed to last for so many years is an example of this. GW didn't plan firstborn's obsolescence when they started pumping them out over two decades ago. They are replacing them with Primaris. If they plan for Primaris to be obsolete in 5 years you'd have an argument for them. Between 2012 and 2017, GW's gross profit reduced by 16 million GBP. Their overall financials are accessible.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Cap'n Failboat wrote:
Grey40k wrote:

Tactical marines could have lasted another 20 years but GW chose to phase them out to sell new models. That is precisely a move to make something obsolete and it is a very nasty anti consumer practice.

Truth is, GW grew while supporting old sculpts for decades, so it is not an unfeasible business model. They just choose to change it to make more money.

You cannot change facts or definitions.


Planned obsolescence is designing a product to have a limited lifespan and it's usually a quick timeframe not 20+ years. Apple's selection of components designed to last for so many years is an example of this. GW didn't plan firstborn's obsolescence when they started pumping them out over two decades ago. They are replacing them with Primaris. If they plan for Primaris to be obsolete in 5 years you'd have an argument for them. Between 2012 and 2017, GW's gross profit reduced by 16 million GBP. Their overall financials are accessible.



Planned / designed obsolescence is not limited to the manufacturing of the product, as GW very clearly has done. It simply means that a product is "made obsolete" in its intended function for the purpose of selling a newer one. GW phased out oldmarines in favor of primaris via rules with the purpose of selling new marines. You agree with this, but somehow refuse to call it planned obsolescence because it has a bad rep. Instead, you tell me I am getting good value per hour of entertainment, let me know how long I enjoyed my old marines, and so on. In other words, you are being GW salesman. But all those comments do not change the fact that GW phased out oldmarines to sell new marines, and that they chose to do that even though it is bad for us consumers.

The time span is irrelevant for the definition, although of course shorter artificial durations are worse for the consumer. The 20+ years is the result of the company changing their approach some years ago. Whether they then squad primaris or not will not change that the moved they pulled with primaris is planned obsolescence.
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

I disagree that the phasing of oldmarines over to Primaris is planned obsolescence. As mentioned previously, there's no way this line of events was predicted and planned when Marines were in their infancy 20 years ago. This is obsolescence, sure, and it's one that GW is introducing themselves, but in response to market factors in order to boost profits. If you consider the results to be anti-consumer - that's fair enough, but don't call it what it isn't.

If you want a REAL example of GW practicing planned obsolescence - Psychic Awakening.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Super Ready wrote:
I disagree that the phasing of oldmarines over to Primaris is planned obsolescence. As mentioned previously, there's no way this line of events was predicted and planned when Marines were in their infancy 20 years ago. This is obsolescence, sure, and it's one that GW is introducing themselves, but in response to market factors in order to boost profits. If you consider the results to be anti-consumer - that's fair enough, but don't call it what it isn't.

If you want a REAL example of GW practicing planned obsolescence - Psychic Awakening.


Again getting caught in the words. The key component of "planned" obsolescence is that it is by design, not when that happens. The term planned is often substituted by others such as programmed. They chose to implement it now, due to a change in the commercial strategy, but it remains the same strategy: you "break" a product to sell a new one (DEFINITION: It is the deliberate shortening of a lifespan of a product to force consumers to purchase replacements). This strategy does not hinge on WHEN the decision to make the product obsolete was made.

It is not me saying it is anti-consumer, it is widely understood to be so.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Blackie wrote:

If you are a SM player pre 2017 you actually have to re-buy your entire army in order to play if classic marines become squatted or legends. Legends are not always allowed.


Yea...once. Once is not over and over. Even if you didn't buy Primaris, their arrival should've been alarm bells prompting a cessation of firstborn purchases or pressing forward only in the understanding that their use was limited.

 Blackie wrote:

A couple editions from now GW could say: oh those primaris are not tough enough for the current state of 40k and people love superheroes and bigger models anyway, so why don't we launch SM 3.0?


If they did that for in this edition, I'd be with you, seeing as my first Primaris was Indomitus. In 10e, I'd be sore about it. 11e, I'd suck it up because I probably got adequate value for it.

 Blackie wrote:

To me it's very reasonable. GW charges a lot of money on rules alone. Even without spending a single cent in miniatures for an entire edition a player that wants to play with all the rules available has to pay a lot of money anyway. I could agree with you if ALL the books were released for free. The rules you find in them at least. But even without buying miniatures I can easily pay 300ish dollars per edition in rule-books. If I owned more than 2 armies the amount of money invested in books could be even higher than starting a full new 2000+ points army.


Easily? No. If you bought every possible supplement related to an army, yes. I get most and I wouldn't blame you for doing it but if you want all the rules, it's the cost of getting them legitimately, or you can learn to share. The pile of books is an unfortunate development for 40K, but again, do a value calculation. Even a higher one makes sense. Indefinite is simply absurd and leaves no room for GW to survive as a business.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Planned obsolescence is introducing something with a deliberately short lifespan.

Releasing NEW IMPROVED is not planned obsolescence.

No amount of bad faith arguing can make the definitions the same.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 JohnnyHell wrote:
Planned obsolescence is introducing something with a deliberately short lifespan.

Releasing NEW IMPROVED is not planned obsolescence.

No amount of bad faith arguing can make the definitions the same.


Seriously? Absolutely no one, so far, denied that they shortened the lifespan of oldmarines on purpose to sell new marines. I guess there is always room for more bad faith arguments and mudying the waters.

They could have perfectly well released the primaris models and called them tactical marines in a new but otherwise equivalent armor. They chose to make them better rule wise, and eventually legend old marines, because otherwise they wouldn't have sold as many new marines otherwise.

Are your OLD marines naturally obsolete because there is a new sculpt? No, they are not, at least for enough people. That's why GW decided to pull the primaris move. Because new sculpts do not make old sculpts ''obsolete'' at the rate that they desire. In fact, many people are totally find with the old sculpts otherwise (e.g. vintage beaky marine armies are hot).
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Grey40k wrote:

Seriously? Absolutely no one, so far, denied that they shortened the lifespan of oldmarines on purpose to sell new marines. I guess there is always room for more bad faith arguments and mudying the waters.

They could have perfectly well released the primaris models and called them tactical marines in a new but otherwise equivalent armor. They chose to make them better rule wise, and eventually legend old marines, because otherwise they wouldn't have sold as many new marines otherwise.

Are your OLD marines naturally obsolete because there is a new sculpt? No, they are not, at least for enough people. That's why GW decided to pull the primaris move. Because new sculpts do not make old sculpts ''obsolete'' at the rate that they desire. In fact, many people are totally find with the old sculpts otherwise (e.g. vintage beaky marine armies are hot).


I'm done. Call it what you will.

What would it be if they changed tac and go from worse, but usable, to as good or better because of options? Say sometime soon...like October maybe.
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

 JohnnyHell wrote:


Releasing NEW IMPROVED is not planned obsolescence.



But they're not improved, the're just newer. They're still plastic models for the same game.

In fact for people that own independent marines armies, they're the opposite of IMPROVED. Take SW, the SM chapter I play. They have lots of signature units:

- Logan
- Bjorn/wulfen dread/ven dread/Murderfang
- Ulrik
- Njal (2 actually)
- Arjac
- Lukas
- Rune priest
- Iron priest
- Grey hunters/blood claws (with bitz to convert scouts as well)
- Stormfang/stormwolf
- TWC
- Wulfen
- Fenrisian wolves
- Wolfguard terminators

Just off top of my head. Plus all the kits that are shared with other SM chapters. Signature SW Primaris are:

- Ragnar
- Primaris Battle Leader

And there's a sprue with upgrades for infantry models with a gran total of... 3 SW heads, lol. Grey hunters, termy, TWC alone have 30+ SW dedicated heads to choose from.
Tons of bitz to customize the models as well. Classic SW also have their sprue of upgrades as well.

So yeah, in practise unless GW is going to release 10+ SW signature kits my army will be squatted for real if classic marines are moved to legend. I don't play SM and I don't like the aesthetics of primaris, if SW are going to be just generic SM painted in light grey/blue with just a couple of dedicated characters and a specific chapter trait like current vanilla marines I'd have to play something else because the army I love wouldn't exist anymore. Same for DA and BA.

When GW released the ork buggies and the new ghaz their older counterparts were actually squatted (the latter in the same exact day SotB was released) but the ork player can choose to buy them or not. If he doesn't like them or doesn't want to buy them, fine, he still has plenty of options to play. That's something I accept and I actually consider it positive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 12:23:55


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I'm done. Call it what you will.

What would it be if they changed tac and go from worse, but usable, to as good or better because of options? Say sometime soon...like October maybe.


Oldmarines are dead, the question is how long they'll keep them on life support.
   
Made in za
Regular Dakkanaut



South Africa

 Blackie wrote:
Kayback wrote:


Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?



A lot of peope do. And those who don't are using the modern phones mostly to do things that older phones couldn't do. Like watching videos or making photos. No one forces them to use modern phones if they need to call or text someone.

Classic marines and primaris are and do the exact same thing, except one line could be squatted for no other reason than forcing players to re-buy their army. Not just a few units, but anything released before 3 years ago.

The comparison between phones and miniatures could be fair (maybe) if primaris marines were able to do something different than their older counterpart. Like moving by themselves, or replicating sounds when the player rolls to resolve their firepower (Bang!) maybe or when he fails some of their armor saves (Aaaarrgh!!). Or maybe they could just read your email or making coffee. At that point they'd be like post 2010 phones compared to older ones.


Well two things they can do is 1) be a better scale and 2) have Primaris stat lines.

True they've pretty much rendered point 2 null with the +1W buff across the board but it is still there.

A pre 2010 phone is likely running GSM, something Verizon and TMobile is turning off by the end of 2020 squatting all those feature phone. Soooooo...

They aren't preventing anyone using a Firstborn Marine as a Primaris Marine. You may lose your ruleset for your old style squads but you aren't prevented from using your models, like they did with LOTR/WHFB. Your Firstborn Marines can be used as Primaris without costing you anything.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey40k wrote:


Do you know what planned obsolescence is? Because you answer suggests you don't.



It's clear you don't, because that phrase doesn't mean what you're trying to make it mean.

Replacing old items with new and updated ones is not planned obsolescence. They didn't design the Firstborn, or even the RT with the plan of replacing them. Like I said some of the designs have been around for a decade or longer. There isn't any difference between an RT era Tactical Marine and one you purchased last week. They play the same on the tabletop. The current Land Speeder design is 22 years old! That isn't planned obsolescence. Being made obsolete by updates and changes isn't planned obsolescence. Now they have introduced V2.0, which'll do stuff differently and you have an issue with it? You still haven't explained why.

Especially as no one is actually forcing you to buy new models. You can use them as Primaris. There isn't any rule preventing that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 12:50:01


KBK 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Just seems to be a drum to beat. Always helps your point if you don’t attach a completely incorrect label to try and demonise something.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




LOL You can use oldmarines as primaris? No more than you can use a beer bottle, a rubber duck, or a lego.

I'll make it simple:

Selling a new tactical marine sculpt is different from selling a "primaris" sculpt that is better than the tactical marine.

One thing is offering me a choice (do I like it better?), the other is breaking the "old" product to sell the "new" product.

If you cannot tell the difference, I cannot help you.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I'll concede to jumping the gun a little with leaked stuff, but you can't pretend that it's all that far from being able to produce them when they're willing to officially display some of them. Doing a quick count through Battle Scribe, there are 40 unique units released between 8e and now. 13 of these are 3+ man squads, the remainder being individual characters or vehicles. If they continue the focus on Primaris as they did the last edition, it's not hard to get the units we've talked about into production and released in 3 years. Even then, a few gaps aren't going to be overwhelming. Lore is on the same boat.



Oh its not even as hard as GW has made it. They're slower doing this than they need to be, I assume they're going at the speed they want to. This way they don't flood us with models, overwhelming our paint tables and wallets. There's probably some stuff they dont/didn't know what they wanted to do about yet too
- i.e. DW/RW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey40k wrote:


Oldmarines are dead, the question is how long they'll keep them on life support.


Old Marines were dead. They may still be. I'm not as convinced as I was. Still pretty convinced, but I think GW had to change their undershorts when they saw the pushback.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 13:52:56


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Going with the description provided by Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence#Types), you could make a point for "Systemic obsolescence".

However, GW won't send anybody to your house to dissolve all of your old Marines in acid so you have to get a replacement. They will always be valid to use for games from 1st to 9th edition (and maybe beyond).

The definition of "Planned obsolescence" does not cover such fine details like a board game transitioning to it's next rules iteration.

For what we know so far, Firstborn are not being kept underperforming on purpose. They even get buffs to their wounds and weapons. In 8th some of the strongest units were Firstborn.

On the other side you have a big list of Primaris units that are okay, but not "I have to rebuy everything to stay competitive" good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 13:56:44


 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




It's squatting any full collection of pre 8th models. All of them, not just some units. So yeah, it is squatting an army. Primaris were released only 3 years ago, it's not like squatting armies that haven't been updated since Rogue Trader.

If you think it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again good for you, I simply disagree with that logic.


No. Squatting an army means that army literally no longer exists. Period. Ending a model line is just that. Ending a model line. Can Bretonnian players play AoS? No. What about Tomb Kings? No. What about .... Squats in 40k? No. Ending Oldmarines means a model line will no longer have active support and said models will move to Legends where they will be legal for most games. At that point, will you still be able to play Imperial Marines? Yep. With your old models OR with the new ones. So I really can't go with the line of thought that says this is a full-on squatting.

Do I like it? Actually no. As I said, I have a full chapter (minus Thunderhawks lol) of Marines. Not an exaggeration either. I have an actual, literal, full chapter of old marines. But the reality is, giving us 5-10 years IS a pretty long time. GW is still a business and they need to make money. Traditionally, Old Marines were big sellers, but that market has reached saturation. Many of the models have also not aged well (much as I love them - the old marine line looks really silly next to a lot of modern models) and were in bad need of an update. Look no further than the fact that most of the stuff in the mystery boxes GW sent out (to clear out stock that wasn't selling) was old marine stuff.

Like it or not, things change and you can't expect a company to support a thing indefinitely. The good news is, this really isn't that big a deal IMO. While I wish they could support old marines indefinitely (who knows, maybe they will, but I doubt it), if they are moved to legends, it really doesn't affect most players all that much. I'll still use my old marines in garage hammer games, and, when the mood strikes me, as stand ins for certain Primaris units. This really only effects tournament players, and a good portion of them will likely have gone full Primaris by the time the actual move to legends occurs anyway. I'm sad to see the old marines go, but honestly, their time had been up for quite a while imo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 14:16:46


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?


If Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG are not being phased out, then show me how many Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG release there have been since Primaris came out.

Has there been even 1?


Subtelty aside:
Most of the old marines kits are rather fresh for GW standards. If you count out the "newly created factions", old marines may even have the most up-to-date model line in the whole 40k universe.
These models are sculptured, the molds a formed, the glossy images for box and advertisment have been designed/painted/printed and this is what makes roughly >90% of the total costs.
The last <10% is using some plastic to print the stuff and then sell it... GW would be utterly stupid to not sell those kits for like another decade.
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




If Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG are not being phased out, then show me how many Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG release there have been since Primaris came out.

Has there been even 1?


The difference is, there are no alternative models coming out for any of those lines. It's really not the same thing.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:
Going with the description provided by Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence#Types), you could make a point for "Systemic obsolescence".

However, GW won't send anybody to your house to dissolve all of your old Marines in acid so you have to get a replacement. They will always be valid to use for games from 1st to 9th edition (and maybe beyond).

The definition of "Planned obsolescence" does not cover such fine details like a board game transitioning to it's next rules iteration.

For what we know so far, Firstborn are not being kept underperforming on purpose. They even get buffs to their wounds and weapons. In 8th some of the strongest units were Firstborn.

On the other side you have a big list of Primaris units that are okay, but not "I have to rebuy everything to stay competitive" good.


No, they won't destroy the models. But for many people who play outside of a close group of friends, they may as well.

Firstborn are being phased out, as evidenced by the fact that outside few units they have been kicked out of all the competitive lists. And the few units that remained had more to do with the primaris line not being yet fully developed than anything else; exceptions to the rule, if you wish.

As for primaris not being overwhelmingly good or even OP, I point to aggressors, eradicators, BGV, impulsors, intercessors, etc.

It is obvious to absolutely everyone that primaris are the future of marines, the discussion is more about how fast and whether this happening in the first place is anti-consumer or not.

PS - As for the lawyring over "planned obsolescence" we have seen over the last few pages: there is no need for a specific term to be coined after "board games phasing out models...."; the essence of the definition fits it quite well and I doubt that in any professional / academic setting anyone would debate it. Now, the anonymous public internet forums are a different beast...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 15:13:35


 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

The Old Space Marine range is complete (has been for years)- if you want something its there - unlike any other Faction, never mind a subfaction. How many different tactical squads are needed?

If we longer get gak like Centurions and Wolf Sleds crowbarred into the game to try and make something new for Marine players to buy - how can that be a bad thing

Worst case scenario it that the truly vast and now increasingly bloated Firstborn range will go to direct order and anyone wanting them will have to rely on "just" them and the equally vast FW marine range.

There is limited space on the shelves - having two vast marine ranges with all the sub sub faction models is not practical.

Firstborn have just received a huge boost with the 2W so much so that some Primaris players are now complaining "whats special about Primaris" and will likely be demanding further boosts to them....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/04 16:32:36


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Grey40k wrote:
As for primaris not being overwhelmingly good or even OP, I point to aggressors, eradicators, BGV, impulsors, intercessors, etc.


- Hellblasters
- Redemptor Dreadnought
- Reivers
- Lieutenant in Phobos armour
- Librarian in Phobos armour
- Captain in Phobos armour
- Primaris captain
- Tor Garadon
- Adrax Agatone
- Mephiston
- Kor'sarro Khan
- Kayvaan Shrike
- Tigurius
- Inceptors
- Infiltrator
- Incursor
- Master Lazarus
- Assault Intercessor
- Calgar
- Repulsor


My point was - word for word - "On the other side you have a big list of Primaris units that are okay, but not "I have to rebuy everything to stay competitive" good."
I agree that Firstborn will be phased out at some point in the future. Not as long as they make enough money to keep them on life support with rules updates, though. And from what we know so far they won't get weaker rules to incentivise buying Primaris.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:

My point was - word for word - "On the other side you have a big list of Primaris units that are okay, but not "I have to rebuy everything to stay competitive" good."
I agree that Firstborn will be phased out at some point in the future. Not as long as they make enough money to keep them on life support with rules updates, though. And from what we know so far they won't get weaker rules to incentivise buying Primaris.


Infiltrators are top notch. In any case, my point is not that all primaris are OP, rather that they are writen to be superior to first born. This is commenly accepted as very few first born make it to competitive lists. Some units of first born that are still used (e.g. sanguinary guard) oftentimes are there because we haven't seen the primaris equivalent released yet. Grav drop pods are one nerf away from uselesness.

At the end of the day, there are far more "not worth it" first born than primaris units and that is by design. Whatever is not frequently used among primaris is due to bad internal balance across updates, something very common for GW.

   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 Mr Morden wrote:
Worst case scenario it that the truly vast and now increasingly bloated Firstborn range will go to direct order and anyone wanting them will have to rely on "just" them and the equally vast FW marine range.


The only part I disagree with. For many, that's possibly the best-case scenario. If they're selling them, they're probably supporting them, allowing me to use my marines even longer. Firstborn will phase out (a way better term than I've been using. thx Grey40K), it is a matter of time. Even if they do go that route initially, it may only be a step towards it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 16:00:06


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Cap'n Failboat wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Worst case scenario it that the truly vast and now increasingly bloated Firstborn range will go to direct order and anyone wanting them will have to rely on "just" them and the equally vast FW marine range.


The only part I disagree with. For many, that's possibly the best-case scenario. If they're selling them, they're probably supporting them, allowing me to use my marines even longer. Firstborn will phase out (a way better term than I've been using. thx Grey40K), it is a matter of time. Even if they do go that route initially, it may only be a step towards it.


Yeah, I am a forward looking person. Investing in a sinking ship does not appeal to me

My hope is that this is the last of Kirby's BS we see, and that the new management abandons the whole "phasing out" approach



   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Cap'n Failboat wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Worst case scenario it that the truly vast and now increasingly bloated Firstborn range will go to direct order and anyone wanting them will have to rely on "just" them and the equally vast FW marine range.


The only part I disagree with. For many, that's possibly the best-case scenario. If they're selling them, they're probably supporting them, allowing me to use my marines even longer. Firstborn will phase out (a way better term than I've been using. thx Grey40K), it is a matter of time. Even if they do go that route initially, it may only be a step towards it.


As long as they have stock they will keep them on sale - Sisters were metal and direct order only for what twenty years?

Plus Forgeworld pretty much is Marines and other bits and pieces.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.
   
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, if the game proceeds historically, then oldschool Marines become obsolete as they present the Marines of the dark age,
while Primaris Marines stand for the renaissance.

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