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Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.


yep I use my RT era Marines alongside my Primaris - same as I did with newer Marines - I don't mind some size discrepencies - they are not all the same size on the lore. Same as my original battlewagon and Space Orcs.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in ca
Mysterious Techpriest






highwind01 wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?


If Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG are not being phased out, then show me how many Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG release there have been since Primaris came out.

Has there been even 1?


Subtelty aside:
Most of the old marines kits are rather fresh for GW standards. If you count out the "newly created factions", old marines may even have the most up-to-date model line in the whole 40k universe.
These models are sculptured, the molds a formed, the glossy images for box and advertisment have been designed/painted/printed and this is what makes roughly >90% of the total costs.
The last <10% is using some plastic to print the stuff and then sell it... GW would be utterly stupid to not sell those kits for like another decade.


Eldar :
Howling banshees
Jain zar

Dark eldar:
Drazhar
Incubi

IG:
The various exclusive catachan models and Severina Raine? (i dont follow that army tbh)

So effectively no NEW models, only rescults that even came with nerfs in the case of Jain Zar

10/10

Admech 5000
Drukhari 4000
2500
500
Imperial knights 1200

 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.


Well, you can't do that in tournies. And it is not a base issue exclusively.

The reason being that a beakie was still a tactical marine, but now primaris are not just biggie marines.

I would have been totally fine with them releasing modern versions of marines without calling them something different, like they had been doing for decades.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Grey40k wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.


Well, you can't do that in tournies. And it is not a base issue exclusively.

The reason being that a beakie was still a tactical marine, but now primaris are not just biggie marines.

I would have been totally fine with them releasing modern versions of marines without calling them something different, like they had been doing for decades.


But then you won't sell more of them - they need Marine players to buy a new army not the occassional slightly differerent model.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Mr Morden wrote:
Grey40k wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.


Well, you can't do that in tournies. And it is not a base issue exclusively.

The reason being that a beakie was still a tactical marine, but now primaris are not just biggie marines.

I would have been totally fine with them releasing modern versions of marines without calling them something different, like they had been doing for decades.


But then you won't sell more of them - they need Marine players to buy a new army not the occassional slightly differerent model.


But of course, this is exclusively the only purpose of the primaris adventure. No disagreement.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Mr Morden wrote:

As long as they have stock they will keep them on sale - Sisters were metal and direct order only for what twenty years?
Plus Forgeworld pretty much is Marines and other bits and pieces.


As long as they have stock could be tomorrow or by the end of the year...I'm exaggerating but unless they continue to produce them, they will eventually run out of them.

We're speculating. So yes, maybe they do. There is a difference though. Metal SoB didn't have Sisters of Primaris to fulfill most of their roles in their faction. I don't have hard evidence but it's pretty clear that the various SM chapters are the dominant faction(s), and have been for most of WH40K's history. Eliminating SoB, then or now, would have an effect in an already SM heavy environment. Basically, it'd be a harder ask to remove an entire faction from the game (again) than replacing a pseudo-duplicated line of models.

Maybe FW becomes relegated to HH or they eventually shift focus to Primaris. It's kind of foolish to do the latter when the home office is pumping out highly hyped Primaris models as frequently as they are. Either their own or their parent company's sales would be impacted. I'm guessing that transition will occur as more of the Primaris line comes close to completion. (My personal definition of completion being when Primaris have enough equivalents to fill nearly all firstborn roles)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey40k wrote:
But of course, this is exclusively the only purpose of the primaris adventure. No disagreement.


Consensus? Can't have that. I do agree.

They're a business. Over the five years preceding Primaris they took a 15% cut in gross profit. They're also publically traded with a fiduciary duty to stockholders, that 3% average reduction per year is not a trend those dudes will take sitting down.

You've seen the explosion of Primaris practically everywhere Instead of leaning on 20-year old models saturating personal collections and the second-hand markets, we had to get new stuff. It makes sense. Their numbers show it. They've gone up nearly double the gross income since Primaris. Those numbers at least somewhat prove that much of the community was willing to shell out for them too.

The drastic reduction of my firstborn's use will be lamentable, but I'm fortunate enough to have had a mostly complete pair of chapters for nearly a decade.
We have yet to see how they handle the firstborn's elimination, but I'm sure they'll find a way to avoid a "good" one.
If they do make entire model line replacements a regular occurrence, I will cross over and stand with your disapproval. This first instance after 20+ years of production, despite affecting me more than the usual player, just isn't worth being so vehemently against it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 18:41:19


 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Kayback wrote:

A pre 2010 phone is likely running GSM, something Verizon and TMobile is turning off by the end of 2020 squatting all those feature phone. Soooooo...


Comparison still wrong. In 2020 phones that are exactly like pre 2010 ones (no cameras, no internet, etc) are still produced because there's a significant market for them, just think of old people that can't possibly learn how to use a phone with touch screen.

Tycho wrote:


No. Squatting an army means that army literally no longer exists. Period. Ending a model line is just that. Ending a model line. Can Bretonnian players play AoS? No. What about Tomb Kings? No. What about .... Squats in 40k? No. Ending Oldmarines means a model line will no longer have active support and said models will move to Legends where they will be legal for most games. At that point, will you still be able to play Imperial Marines? Yep. With your old models OR with the new ones. So I really can't go with the line of thought that says this is a full-on squatting.


At the moment I don't have an alternative if old marines get squatted. There's is no SW primaris line, only primaris that can be played as SW but they have nothing of SW. Just marines in light blue/grey. As I said my army isn't SM and forcing me to play SM actually means that my army doesn't exist anymore.

I don't care if they are still called SW, current primaris have nothing to do with SW. Or BA or DA. It's just like bretonnian and tomb kings dudes that can play their models as free people or some undead faction, models still legal but their army actually squatted.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/05 08:43:23


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Its fair enough if you choose to or not to use the models for a Marine range or even a Marine sub faction such as Space Wolves.

I refuse to use the current Wolfen, Santa Logan, Wolves on Wolves, all the mini-flyers and centurions - i also won;t be getting a numebr of the Primaris as I donlt iek the models.

Thats my choice - same as yours.

Primaris painted/modeled as Space Wolf Models are Space Wolf models - they even indulge us SW players with a super special Primaris upgrade pack to make them more Wolfy. Something that no other non Marine sub faction gets.

if you play in tournaments - yes you have to obey the rules and use the actual models.
Most other places if you have clear proxies for the current range you will often be ok - especially if you are playign with friends - same as people use for other armies and have done for decades - even some tournaments use proxies.

No sign of Forgeworld becoming less Marine focussed and where again Space Wolves have another huge range for us.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/05 09:14:35


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Cap'n Failboat wrote:

Consensus? Can't have that. I do agree.

They're a business. Over the five years preceding Primaris they took a 15% cut in gross profit. They're also publically traded with a fiduciary duty to stockholders, that 3% average reduction per year is not a trend those dudes will take sitting down.

You've seen the explosion of Primaris practically everywhere Instead of leaning on 20-year old models saturating personal collections and the second-hand markets, we had to get new stuff. It makes sense. Their numbers show it. They've gone up nearly double the gross income since Primaris. Those numbers at least somewhat prove that much of the community was willing to shell out for them too.

The drastic reduction of my firstborn's use will be lamentable, but I'm fortunate enough to have had a mostly complete pair of chapters for nearly a decade.
We have yet to see how they handle the firstborn's elimination, but I'm sure they'll find a way to avoid a "good" one.
If they do make entire model line replacements a regular occurrence, I will cross over and stand with your disapproval. This first instance after 20+ years of production, despite affecting me more than the usual player, just isn't worth being so vehemently against it.


I think it is an extremely bad idea to try to put us, consumers, in the shoes of a giant company like GW. Let them do the business, we do the playing and collecting.

If they cannot manage their business in a profitable manner without "phasing out" miniatures, which is a move, then for all I care they can go under; then they would make room for someone who knows how to do business better.
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Grey40k wrote:
I think it is an extremely bad idea to try to put us, consumers, in the shoes of a giant company like GW. Let them do the business, we do the playing and collecting.


I think this is a horrible notion wherever I encounter it - just because you don't do something professionally, doesn't mean you shouldn't have the ability to provide constructive criticism.

1 - you might well have the requisite knowledge, some GW customers own and/or run businesses too.
2 - professional knowledge isn't always needed to discern quality. Or to use a popular quote - "don't p*@$ in my cup and tell me it's coffee".
3 - if this applies both ways, and GW aren't expected to know what it's like to play and collect, how can they know what we want?!
4 - "you don't know what you're talking about, let us handle this" is often an excuse to hide things that people really should know about.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/05 09:36:43


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Super Ready wrote:
Grey40k wrote:
I think it is an extremely bad idea to try to put us, consumers, in the shoes of a giant company like GW. Let them do the business, we do the playing and collecting.


I think this is a horrible notion wherever I encounter it - just because you don't do something professionally, doesn't mean you shouldn't have the ability to provide constructive criticism.

1 - you might well have the requisite knowledge, some GW customers own and/or run businesses too.
2 - professional knowledge isn't always needed to discern quality. Or to use a popular quote - "don't p*@$ in my cup and tell me it's coffee".
3 - if this applies both ways, and GW aren't expected to know what it's like to play and collect, how can they know what we want?!
4 - "you don't know what you're talking about, let us handle this" is often an excuse to hide things that people really should know about.


In a public forum obviously you can post whatever you want within reason. My point was that trying to justify their actions (specially when they hurt us, consumers) by saying they need to do whatever because otherwise they might not make a profit is bad business for us and likely misinformed.

The rest you say is, I am sorry, besides the point.
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

 Mr Morden wrote:


Thats my choice - same as yours.



Absolutely, I'll definitely manage to play anyway. I get that GW is interested in making money, I'm just disappointed that my collection of models is going to be phased out. I'm not gonna make a riot out of it, I'll simply stop buying SW/SM models.

It's just that an entire list of legends could be hard to enjoy since legends don't get any attention, it may be difficult to have a fairly balanced game with a full legend list. And those who say the army is not going, well any entire pre-2017 collection is going and at the moment is going to be replaced with something that completely lacks the theme/vibe of the army and doesn't have the same amount of details of classic kits. Getting 30+ different dedicated SW heads vs the just 3 primaris SW heads is a perfect example of that. For an Imperial Fist, Salamander, Iron Hands... dude those primaris may actually be "improved" models, for SW, DA, BA (at least) they definitely aren't.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Grey, I'm... still not sure I entirely understand your point then. Are you saying it would be a bad idea for GW to come right out and say, "we did this because we need to make money"? Or are you saying that's what they SHOULD do?
I have no argument either way, it'd be refreshing in some ways if they did but no doubt damaging in other ways.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Super Ready wrote:
Grey, I'm... still not sure I entirely understand your point then. Are you saying it would be a bad idea for GW to come right out and say, "we did this because we need to make money"? Or are you saying that's what they SHOULD do?
I have no argument either way, it'd be refreshing in some ways if they did but no doubt damaging in other ways.


I often see people defend companies policies on the basis that it is the lesser evil to keep the product out. Examples I have seen include defending P2W and microtrans monetization, DLCs, and here "phasing out" (since you guys hate obsolescence) of miniature ranges.

I do not think it is a good idea for consumers to engage in company white knighting; most of those commercial strategies are markedly anti consumer and its necessity is debatable. True, microtrans and primaris + WHFB may have contributed to amazing profits for those companies, but they most likely weren't "necessary" to keep those business viable. Defending them is throwing stones into our own roof, some weird (IMO) consumer masochism.
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Ahh! NOW I understand, thank you. And to an extent, I do agree (depending a lot on the business and the outcomes, of course, context is always important).
I will say though that sometimes I say things as an example of why a company might have done something, but that doesn't automatically mean I'm supporting it, even if I don't decry it while doing so. I suspect the same is true of others here.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in za
Regular Dakkanaut



South Africa

I don't understand how saying it isn't anti-consumer for a company to produce new items to sell is white knighting.

No one is forcing you to buy Primaris. No one is forcing you to buy GW at all. You are electing to engage in a hobby. A hobby run by a company thats in business to make money. Stating this fact is not "white knighting" a company it's telling you to not be ridiculous in your expectations.

The old line of Marines may be nearing termination. Sucks but it's true. This isn't the first army its happened to, won't be the last. Trying to start a Crusade to, what? Get them to say sorry? Get them to stop doing it? What exactly is the end goal here of people complaining?

The new line of Primaris allowed a couple of things. Better scale, more modern sculpts, new stat lines, and new units that are shaking up decades old tactics that were only changing because of the revised rules. Yet people are carrying on like GW just insulted their mothers, then demanded people pay for that privilege.

And here's the kicker, so far NOTHING has been proven to show Old Marines are going away. They might be. They really really might be, but people are arguing like it's a fait acompli and not something that *might* happen in the future.

KBK 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Kayback wrote:


The new line of Primaris allowed a couple of things.


Kayback wrote:

Better scale


Debatable, IMHO they look awful and too big. Little to no details to customize them to specific chapters, especially standalone ones.

Kayback wrote:

more modern sculpts


True, but also sisters, necron warriors or incubi new releases are more modern sculpts, and they didn't replace/invalidate anything. If the purpose of primaris was having more modern sculpts GW could have just released updated classic marines kits.

Kayback wrote:

new stat lines


Not related to primaris. In fact I see classic marines getting 2W, HB getting 2D, etc... GW could have just updated the rules/datasheets without releasing a new line of models.

Kayback wrote:

and new units that are shaking up decades old tactics that were only changing because of the revised rules


Most of those "new" units are exactly the same ones with slightly different rules/datasheets. Tactics involving primaris aren't that different to classic old marines.

Complaining on the internet have no purpose of course, so is getting excited about new stuff. What's the point of discussing stuff that isn't strictly related to tactics or the hobby part anyway? That's what forums are there for, discussing things, aren't they?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/05 18:13:14


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Grey40k wrote:
I think it is an extremely bad idea to try to put us, consumers, in the shoes of a giant company like GW. Let them do the business, we do the playing and collecting.


I think it's an extremely bad idea to demonize a company without at least exploring the circumstances which motivate their actions, even if you still disagree with them. It's also very disingenuous to equate a single model range's replacement, over several years, to their standard operating procedure. I often see people attack an entity or individual trying to make them out to be some kind of evil villain twirling their mustache while thinking of how they can gak their base (mostly in political arenas). As I said, if they did make it common, I'd be completely against them on this matter. I'm already not a fan of how high they raise prices on kits when they do, how they balance the factions (power creep), and the relative neglect other factions tend to receive. The app debacle is another one, but I'm told they're changing it and don't have those particulars.

Grey40k wrote:

If they cannot manage their business in a profitable manner without "phasing out" miniatures, which is a move, then for all I care they can go under; then they would make room for someone who knows how to do business better.

[I assume gak is a catchall four-letter replacement. ??]
You're okay with them going under, gak I wouldn't be too concerned if they went under, but few businesses are going to lay there and die. SM 2.0 was the response to their circumstance. Obviously, removing firstborn will alienate several players, this thread is clear evidence of it. We'll have to see how the eventual removal plays out, but the numbers prove the release was a popular one and by 6-years (or 9 if they don't do it until 11th...maybe longer) of adding Primaris to collections, most players won't be losing their entire army, limiting the backlash. That's on top of how long we've had our minis prior to Primaris' introduction.

As for other companies, that's partly on us, the collectors/players. WarmaHordes and Malifaux are fun and even has an interesting backstory. There are others, I have no experience with, that have good models and maybe have decent rulesets, as well as probably having a more affordable entry cost. On the whole, most of us just seem to be unwilling to transition.

Grey40k wrote:
I often see people defend a company's policies on the basis that it is the lesser evil to keep the product out. Examples I have seen include defending P2W and micro trans monetization, DLCs, and here "phasing out" (since you guys hate obsolescence) of miniature ranges.


I'm actually with you on what you introduced in this statement. The thing is, those are these company's predominant strategies. They are specifically designing their entire game around them, from start to finish. They are expressly locking out sections of games that are part of the code and should've been part of the original release. Once again, if GW proves that to be their new SOP, I'd be against it.

Grey40k wrote:
I do not think it is a good idea for consumers to engage in company white knighting; most of those commercial strategies are markedly anti-consumer and its necessity is debatable. True, microtrans and primaris + WHFB may have contributed to amazing profits for those companies, but they most likely weren't "necessary" to keep those business viable. Defending them is throwing stones into our own roof, some weird (IMO) consumer masochism.


The white knighting...yea. If that's what you want to call it, so be it. I'm not blindly throwing my lot in with GW though. I'm considering the value for my money that I (and many, many others) have had, their situation, their responsibilities, and the various factors that affect them. With the reducing sales, 13M in net profit sounds good for one of us but that is absolutely pitiful for an international company with significant market share. If GW immediately Primarises and phases out more factions in the middle of or after the Space Marines, especially with the current numbers they have, it would be another story.

I'd prefer to rarely ever have to spend money on models and I have other criticisms of GW. I just don't blindly rail against everything that is less consumer-friendly*. They're not a charity or passion project. Merely surviving is not a business goal, and expecting it to be just doesn't make sense.

*I used that just to counter your term. It's weaker than this situation but anti-consumer covers everything from just selling at a pence profit to conflated with stuff like quintupling the cost of life-sustaining medication. If you don't want to spend any more money on models, I'm not going to hate. You don't even need to justify it with anti-consumer practices. Related to my value statements...if it's worth it to us, we buy. Otherwise, we look elsewhere.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
Debatable, IMHO they look awful and too big. Little to no details to customize them to specific chapters, especially standalone ones.


I can't ever truly argue the aesthetics due to subjectivity. Personally, I do like Mk10 except for the extra plates above the knee and shoulder and would prefer beakies. I really don't like most of the other infantry though. As notes on the scale, the IRL size is definitely easier for me to paint. For in-game comparative scale, firstborn were definitely small vs standard IG, but we know that there were inconsistencies all over the place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/05 20:08:36


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




GW already toyed with soft versions of "phasing out" in the past with various WHFB and WH40K armies, along with the long list of unsupported specialist games (epic, gorkamorka, space hulk, now apocalypse).
It just stepped it up a lot with the End Times of WHFB, selling expensive supplements for WHFB and then straight out nuking it. From then on, we saw common trends in both Fantasy (AoS now) and 40k.

Primaris and WHFB are a straight up anti-consumer moves; they made customers worse off.

They could have integrated WHFB armies into AoS rules, and the same for primaris being a very obvious upgrade rules wise to old marines. Why not call primaris simply a new type of tactical armor and be done with it, like they had done for 2 decades? The obvious reason is that they took away support for the purpose of selling new models better. Of the many options they had to introduce new models, this one hurts consumers (anti-consumer).

Stating that they are for profit does not diminish any of this. There are many moves that for profit companies do that hurt consumers, and that's why there is extensive regulation of markets (from anti trust to quality controls). One of the practices that received a lot attention is precisely "planned obsolescence", with countries starting to regulate this much more strictly (e.g. France). Quite obviously GW is "retiring" miniatures that could have had a longer useful lifespan by using their hold on the IP and the "official" rules; in technological products this is known as "planned obsolescence", I guess here we can call it "rules obsolescence". The name is irrelevant, it is the act of manipulating (shortening) the lifespan of a product to get consumers to purchase more. GW has been using its market dominance to do many things that are anti-consumer (e.g. higher than competitive prices).

As for whether they "needed" to do this, and the advise to GTFO if this is not something I like, both are completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. I do not need you to remind me that I can take most of my business elsewhere, and I do not think you have any particular inside on "how needed" this was from a business viability perspective.

I swear I am not salty at you
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




To be frank, if you want less anti-consumer practices, don't play GW games.
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




At the moment I don't have an alternative if old marines get squatted. There's is no SW primaris line, only primaris that can be played as SW but they have nothing of SW. Just marines in light blue/grey. As I said my army isn't SM and forcing me to play SM actually means that my army doesn't exist anymore.

I don't care if they are still called SW, current primaris have nothing to do with SW. Or BA or DA. It's just like bretonnian and tomb kings dudes that can play their models as free people or some undead faction, models still legal but their army actually squatted.


And notice how, at the moment, nothing has been removed.

Like I said, best guess is, 5-10 years from the date of the introduction of the original Primaris. That still gives a ton of time. By then, I'm sure they will have actual Wolfenwulf McMurderwulf the Space viking available in Primaris form, or, at the very least, upgrade kits for existing Primaris. You are upset about something that isn't happening (actual removal of Space Wolves), and probably won't happen. If they came out today and said Old Marines are no more and we're done with the Primaris line, you would have a point. But you have jumped the gun by 5 or 6 years IMO. Once this wave is complete, they will likely do a Primaris release for the snowflake units as well. That, OR they will just say certain units aren't getting the Primaris treatment. But yeah, by the time the final call is made, I'm sure they will have set up proper alternatives for the snowflakes as well.

I don't understand how saying it isn't anti-consumer for a company to produce new items to sell is white knighting.


To put it as gently I can, of all the negative stereotypes that exist about gamers, the one that has wrung true for me over the years is that they tend to be a rather entitled bunch. I've collected marines since RTB01. I have thousands of them. I have gotten years and years out of them. I've been expecting this day for some time. Eventually, I knew they'd update them and probably make what I have obsolete. Even if you got into marines recently, if you get another 5-10 years out of that purchase, you will have gotten your money's worth, but that's not how a lot of gamers see it. I mean I get it, people love their old models and they want them to be relevant forever, but literally nothing works like that. I mean heck, look at Orks. My 2nd ed Ork army is largely "on the shelf" as the entire model line has basically been drastically updated since then. It happens. But gamers often feel they're "owed" something. Every other business in the world updates things and has products go offline or become obsolete. But some gamers seem to feel that spending say, $500 on something and getting 5-10 years of use out of it is somehow anti-consumer. Just watch. Someone will be along to do math for my example and complain that it somehow isn't a good value and that, compared to "xyz" thing, GW is anti-consumer and pure evil. GW does engage in practices that could be labeled anti-consumer, but this isn't one. There are a million other examples of this attitude as well - local LGS struggling and starts charging a nominal fee for table use? "RAAAAAR! I AM DA CUSTOOMER! I SHUD PLAY 4 FREE! I'M TAKING BIZNESS ELSWARE!" and then, when that store goes under - "Why can't game stores remain open in my area?" Oh, and heaven forbid you should point out that playing for free at a LGS and buying all your stuff elsewhere isn't cool ... that almost always creates a level 10 rage storm. lol

IDK. I get being bummed out about it, but I know I wasn't buying any new marines any time soon, and I'm not the only one. I feel the same way about the Old World in WF. I was crushed when I learned they were axing it, and I'm not really keen on the new fluff at all. BUT, at the same time, was I going to buy a WFB army? No. Was I spending a ton of money on books and fluff, etc? No. So I can see why they made the call. Similar thing here. The marine models (mostly the older ones) look kind of silly next to a lot of things in the game. I have Guardsmen that are bigger than some marines. My collection of Old Marines is pretty much complete and has been for years. This is true of many marine players and also likely explains why, when GW did the supply boxes to clear out inventory that was no longer selling - the bulk of it was Old Marines. Even if they had just released the new stuff as "True Scale Marines" and not gone the Primaris route, this day was coming. There's no way around it. Now, if/when the actual end of old marines happens, and it goes down like you can still by them on a Monday, and then on Friday of that week it's announced they're dead, THEN we can all yell about anti-consumer practices, but nothing like that has even come close to happening yet for marines.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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 Blackie wrote:


At the moment I don't have an alternative if old marines get squatted. There's is no SW primaris line, only primaris that can be played as SW but they have nothing of SW. Just marines in light blue/grey. As I said my army isn't SM and forcing me to play SM actually means that my army doesn't exist anymore.

I don't care if they are still called SW, current primaris have nothing to do with SW. Or BA or DA. It's just like bretonnian and tomb kings dudes that can play their models as free people or some undead faction, models still legal but their army actually squatted.


You mean the fur bits, wolf skulls, and what not?

They already started on it, more will come.

https://bloodybeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PrimarisSpaceWolvesArmy.jpg


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you mean characters like Ragnar, Logan and such, I do admit I'm shocked none of them have been primaris-ified less so you haven't gotten even more named HQ's who started Primaris.


It's going to be a hoot to see them figure out how to fluff Bjorn and Murderfang into Redemptors.

You see, Bjorn, Murderfang, we think if we do this surgery you'll be a real live boy again.

Oops, we were wrong, now you're in a new Redemptor Dreadnaught sarcophagus because you're primaris, but you're still almost dead. Oh yeah, no more hitching a ride on Stormravens.

Oh yeah, we have Stormravens you could have ridden around on now.

Why is Murderfang looking at me like that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 16:33:32


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy



Do you think those dudes look like proper SW? They're SM painted in light blue

At the moment the SW upgrade for primaris is a joke, basically 10ish shoulder pads and 3 heads. No dedicated backpacks and little details. Weapons are the same one than any other primaris. Lol. The grey hunters box alone has 20ish heads, 20ish shoulder pads, 5 (IIRC) backpacks, customized weapons with built-in wolfy details, torsos and legs also with built-in wolfy details, plus several little wolfy bitz to add. And that's only the troop kits, many other boxes have tons of bitz that are perfectly interchangeable with those that I listed.

Maybe more will come, I hope it since right now I really struggle to see the SW theme in primaris models. Give me 20ish bare viking looking heads, a dedicated SW dread, a dedicated SW intercessor box, wulfen and TWC primaris equivalents, an extra couple of SW primaris HQs and we could talk.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Blackie wrote:


Do you think those dudes look like proper SW? They're SM painted in light blue

At the moment the SW upgrade for primaris is a joke, basically 10ish shoulder pads and 3 heads. No dedicated backpacks and little details. Weapons are the same one than any other primaris. Lol. The grey hunters box alone has 20ish heads, 20ish shoulder pads, 5 (IIRC) backpacks, customized weapons with built-in wolfy details, torsos and legs also with built-in wolfy details, plus several little wolfy bitz to add. And that's only the troop kits, many other boxes have tons of bitz that are perfectly interchangeable with those that I listed.

Maybe more will come, I hope it since right now I really struggle to see the SW theme in primaris models. Give me 20ish bare viking looking heads, a dedicated SW dread, a dedicated SW intercessor box, wulfen and TWC primaris equivalents, an extra couple of SW primaris HQs and we could talk.


Personally I was hoping most of the Wolfy Wolf stuff faded away - like the nightmare it was. Space wolves started as a little more than colour and IMO has devolved more and more over the decades.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 18:54:13


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

They look like 2nd ed Space Wolves to me.

The end is coming for Firstborn marines, they've almost filled the Primaris line out with the primary units they'll need. Characters can always come later, as can customization for the various Chapters.

I think a lot of the introduction of Primaris was about simplifying the SKU range, rules and options for the entire marine line - there's too many options and boxed sets to be good for the line, and "too much" for the rule designers to work on every time they update a rule (or ruleset).

I give Oldmarines about three to five years of life left at this point - on the outside. Pretty sure by the time 10E drops the old marine model line will be gone - at best people will be using them as proxies for the Primaris line.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




While Grey40K appears to, and I strongly, believe that the phase-out is inevitable, some have made a fair point that it hasn't happened yet and it might not ever. However, the aspects of parts of this back 'n forth assume the removal as a given. Perhaps we should start a new thread.
-b-

Grey40k wrote:
Just to pop on your notifications @Grey40k


WHFB was a dead game 10-years prior to the system's discontinuance. I don't know if you've tried them, but AoS is not WHFB. It is a modified 40K ruleset in a more medieval setting. WHFB support was dropped as a game entirely. The reason many people associate the two is that the lore of the new is built upon the ashes of the old, and a number of models were ported over.

I didn't add WHFB's death as consideration precisely because AoS is such a clearly different game. With that in mind, does allowing the use of any models make GW a benevolent company? No. Could they have added more models to the ported equivalents? Sure, but not every unit fits AoS's design. Is WHFB-to-AoS anything like the phase-out of firstborn. To me, not even remotely. Any community that still has WHFB players can play the "current" version of WHFB with the legitimacy of all its models for those rules.

-b-

To be clear; I'll explicitly state that this, and other things they do, is anti-consumer. The definition is horrendously broad and I can't think of a company that doesn't have something that falls under the anti-consumer label. Where I'm disagreeing with you is the degree. The way you've been arguing the matter is as if GW is a nefarious actor constantly ing the consumer or that its anti-consumer actions equate to other companies that affect a consumer's ability to live in modern societies. Maybe that's just how I'm reading it though. I've already stated my disagreements with GW and game devs, but the expectation to use models forever is just not reasonable, not given the pre and post-Primaris timeframes.

That they are a publically traded for-profit company that was facing steady sales decline, with oversaturated product lines within the community, is not the end-all-be-all but it's not something that someone expressing their resentment should ignore. At the very least, it shapes how/why they make decisions.

I concede that I can't prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that this course of action was "needed". I can look at the publically available data, compare it to their actions, and consider related factors to curb or amplify my own outrage. Data for a specific faction's kits of a specific GW game isn't available (or is too difficult for me to locate). Without that data to contradict the conclusions that can be drawn by what is available, I am left unhappy but recognize where they're coming from.

-b-

As to GTFO, that's not what I'm saying. Until Indomitus I haven't purchased GW models since ~2011 nor have I ever paid retail price (online or the LGS I choose to go to has a discount for those of us in a certain public category). Playing the game spending only what you want/need to is prudent. Aside from throwing some support to the LGS if you frequent it, I see nothing wrong with limiting your spending. I merely meant that if GW doesn't offer an individual enough value for money, they go to another game/hobby or halt further spending. People come and go, but it is evident that the value hasn't become so unbalanced that a vast majority of players have moved on. We'll see if that changes when firstborn become paperweights, though I'm somewhat confident that it won't.
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

 Blackie wrote:
/Do you think those dudes look like proper SW? They're SM painted in light blue

At the moment the SW upgrade for primaris is a joke, basically 10ish shoulder pads and 3 heads. No dedicated backpacks and little details. Weapons are the same one than any other primaris. Lol. The grey hunters box alone has 20ish heads, 20ish shoulder pads, 5 (IIRC) backpacks, customized weapons with built-in wolfy details, torsos and legs also with built-in wolfy details, plus several little wolfy bitz to add. And that's only the troop kits, many other boxes have tons of bitz that are perfectly interchangeable with those that I listed.

Maybe more will come, I hope it since right now I really struggle to see the SW theme in primaris models. Give me 20ish bare viking looking heads, a dedicated SW dread, a dedicated SW intercessor box, wulfen and TWC primaris equivalents, an extra couple of SW primaris HQs and we could talk.
There are so, so many armies that could see some real releases before a well-supported Marine line gets like a half-dozen kits tooled. The SW line has so many parts to work with (as you mentioned), it's ridiculous. Just kitbash some extra pelts etc.

SW have like a dozen substantial kits that in many cases just exist to be cosmetic differences from their regular counterparts, almost all of which are relatively new kits, and have like dozen special characters too. CSM currently have 2/4 iconic cult units and most of their subfactions without models that have seen updates in the past ~20 years, and probably collectively around as many special characters as SW. IG have lost all but about 1.5 of their lines. Eldar haven't had a real kit (just an awkward conversion pack) to represent one of their core troops since literally 2nd edition, and their entire model subfaction differentiation consists of special characters, many of which are ancient.

I get you want new toys now, but SW are far from poorly supported.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 Blackie wrote:
Do you think those dudes look like proper SW? They're SM painted in light blue


TBF, they look like 90% of pre-Primaris SW units available and models were generally just SM with a paint job, wolfey bits, and rules differences. Yes, the "upgrade" sprue needs waaaay better expansion. Yes, lack of SW specific units would reduce the army's character. No, I don't want the abnormal three FF chapters to become represented as all the codex compliant ones are.

Named characters, unique looking HQs, and the Wulfen are fair necessities. Fen/Cyber wolves can continue as is but aren't commonly used (maybe upgrade to unmounted T-Wolves?). At the same time, TWC and Logan Claus are simply ridiculous (as much as I love using TWC). Units like the fliers and shield-wielding dreadnoughts weren't necessary for their character, and feel more like just being different for the sake of it.

Reiterating; there's time to get these things done. Speculating again; they're probably not going to press forward with a phase-out prior to releasing/close to releasing the necessary missing kits. It's worth considering that many of the SW unique units weren't available to us for years, but I'll counter myself with giving us new units drastically readjusts our expectations of a SW army.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't know this sounds a lot, like GW just makes people buy the 9th ed sm book, even if they don't want to play sm, then sells them supplements that add the supposably missing stuff, followed by a codex, all sprinkled by CAs and other paid FAQs. If GW was EA I would fully expect them to do something like put some SW rule in to the sm codex, and then make the SW supplement/codex digital only. This way anyone who wants to play SW would not only have to buy the codex, but also pay for the sub, because there would be no other legal way to get the rules.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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I believe that GW is phasing out the old Space Marines but not for the same reason as most people on this thread.(If someone already mentioned this, sorry) My opinion as to why GW is phasing out the old line of Space Marines, has more to do with the lack of IP protection that they lost, and less because not enough "Timmy's" and "Bobby's" were buying miniatures.(GW's competition for Timmy's money comes in the form of other products like video games, smart phones, etc., and most new customers rarely care about models that preceded the year of their birth, let alone before they entered the hobby)

Ten years ago, GW acted more or less like a monopoly in my opinion, and certainly did price things like they were.(and still do) Now that their IP is at risk of "copy cats" and "IP Pirates," my guess is that they are changing their products to combat that. Look at the timeline In 2013 Chapterhouse won their case, and as far as I know it took them until November of 2014 to get everything fully settled, including appeals, legal maneuvering, etc. In May of 2017, GW puts out a brand new Space Marine, but it is not a Space Marine. It is a completely new model and a completely new name that I am sure is trademarked by GW, in the span of 18 months(Edit: 30 months, sorry for not using math) which may be about how long it takes from the C-Suite to say "Make it so" to full production. Now GW can go on with their almost monopoly and can sue anyone that they think is a threat with more legal muscle as this is their complete creation.

This is also my theory as to why WFB is now gone along with most of the old models. WFB was very easy for upstarts to either make similar models. A defendant could simply point to any number of fantasy novels and say that their inspiration was that, and be laughed out of court by GW. This is not including the historical armies that can be human armies in WFB. Thus GW destroyed WFB and changed it to the monstrosity of aos* that we see now. They can protect aos better than the old WFB.

Maybe I am a little too cynical of GW these days, however I doubt it. So like all of my old WFB armies, as GW drops more and more of their old line for the above or whatever reason, I will buy less and less of their models. I'm down to two armies that I can find in the aos line that I can still find for my old armies. Either way I don't care what they do with their new line of Primaris models, I wont be buying them. Just be lucky that GW does not blow up the whole universe and make it into the Age of Guillemon, or whatever you call him.

* - age of sigmar does not deserve capital lettering.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/09/09 16:28:58


 
   
 
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