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Made in us
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Anyone who thought Primaris was going to " replace " regular Marines, or that regular Marines were going to phase out, well hopefully you all can see that it is simply not true. GW is a company first and foremost, and all they did was create more kits to sell to us 40k fans. The regular Marines will always be here, just like Eldar, Dark Eldar, and all of the other original races will always be here. People still purchase all the old kits, and they will continue to offer them to 40k customers. GW has no reason to phase them out or get rid of them, so they will be here to stay. Even the Space Marine codex's support the fact that Primaris and Normal Space Marines work together to fight the foes of humanity. Will we see any brand new kits for regular Marines? Now that is a good question, one that I cannot answer. Hope you guys are having a great weekend and enjoying 9th in your basement. I know me and my friends are. Here's to the best edition of 40k yet, and as an Eldar/Tau player, im not mad about Primaris Space Marines getting all these new kits and shiny stuff. Let the players and 40k fans have it all, so that the hobby can survive! The more Space Marines that are on the table the more for our Xenos armies to obliterate and destroy! haha cheers!
   
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Because the Market Research Drones managed to convince the beancounters the backlash would cost them more money than pressing on with the original plan.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/30 22:54:17


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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because the Market Research Drones managed to convince the beancounters the backlash would cost them more money than pressing on with the original plan.
Or because people who aren't dead on the inside fought to keep them in.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Stevenage, UK

I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.
The idea being that by the time 10th rolls around, GW can say "you know what, there's really not much difference in these units, we're rolling them into similar units.

I'm not entirely sure that, if this is true, it will come to pass all that smoothly - there'd have to be some more homogenisation come to pass first. Tacs and Intercessors are fairly easily lined up - but there are still a lot of differences between Assault Marines/Inceptors, and Devastators/Eliminators.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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 Super Ready wrote:
I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.
The idea being that by the time 10th rolls around, GW can say "you know what, there's really not much difference in these units, we're rolling them into similar units.

I'm not entirely sure that, if this is true, it will come to pass all that smoothly - there'd have to be some more homogenisation come to pass first. Tacs and Intercessors are fairly easily lined up - but there are still a lot of differences between Assault Marines/Inceptors, and Devastators/Eliminators.


That's sort of what I was hoping for from the beginning. I just kind of wish they'd done it faster so we didn't spend years wondering. I also kind of wish they'd fluffed it as a new line of guns and armor rather than giving us the sort of convoluted retrofitted primaris fluff. But ah well.

All I really wanted were some taller marines with a little more staying power and slightly more killy guns. We're basically there at this point. Within a few years, primaris squads will be able to include one eradicator or hellblaster per 5 models in the unit, a missile launcher primaris will have come out that my devastators can be proxied as, and all will be well.
   
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Then why bother with Primaris at all, if you're just going to make them exactly the same as normal marines?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Crusaderobr wrote:
Anyone who thought Primaris was going to " replace " regular Marines, or that regular Marines were going to phase out, well hopefully you all can see that it is simply not true. GW is a company first and foremost, and all they did was create more kits to sell to us 40k fans. The regular Marines will always be here, just like Eldar, Dark Eldar, and all of the other original races will always be here.


Yes. Those original races, like Dark Eldar.

Congrats to those Slann and Squats, though, lasting all nine editions.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
Then why bother with Primaris at all, if you're just going to make them exactly the same as normal marines?


Numerous reasons, really.

For GW's side, they:
- can sell new Marines to existing Marines players, who are by far the largest single target market GW has but in many cases might not be tempted by a new Tacticals box
- get to upset the meta balance and drive further sales to competitive players that way (ok, this could have been done with any faction)
- can use the scale creep to creep up other factions to suit later, too.

For the players, we got two long-standing gripes dealt with:
- truescale Marines
- something approaching Movie Marines.

I'm not saying that Primaris addresses everything here perfectly, but each approach (including doing nothing) has its own merits and flaws.

Also, I think you might be missing the endgoal. If this "merge" happens, the idea will be that the old Marines will no longer be produced, and you'll only be able to buy Primaris from GW as new stock.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/31 00:02:28


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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I'm pretty sure the original plan was to phase them out.

Then they saw that there was a very large backlash against it and didn't want another Warhammer Fantasy situation on their hands so now they've gone back and brought squat marines in line with Primaris.

They might still squat them, who knows at this point? All that I know is that I'm not buying any more squat marines. I've learned my lesson with WHF. Don't swim close to a drowning man.

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Re:" Old Space Marines " were never going away
Sure they are.

The thing is, you cannot replace such an iconic range of miniatures over night, or even over one edition. It has to be a long-term plan, as there are so many players with existing armies that you cannot leave them out in the cold so quickly.

The change to 2 wounds on First Born is just the next step along this timeline. Now the lines between Primaris and First Born will blur, putting them on (roughly) equal footing. Then, next edition, or maybe even two Codices from now, when we have even more Primaris miniatures, GW can come along and say something along the lines of:

"We realise that the miniature line for the Adeptus Astartes has grown well beyond what we initially imagined, and whilst this is certainly fun for veterans of the hobby, it can be extremely confusing for new players who are just getting their first paint-brush ready. For this reason, we have made the decision to retire a portion of the Space Marine miniature range, specifically the older kits you might call 'First Born'. They will retain their rules in Legends, but we will not be making further kits of these types."

Or words to that effect.

So they're not going away right now, that's for certain, but they aren't going to stay.

 Super Ready wrote:
I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.
It's exactly my theory.

   
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If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?
   
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Part of the problem is Chaos Space Marines are also considered old Marines. If they get rid of old Marines they would have to get rid of Chaos Marines too, which I do not think will happen. Why would GW shelve old Marines? They keep on refreshing kits over and over and over again, and Chaos just got a refresh on almost all of the kits last year and got a new HQ and other new options to boot.

If GW axes old Marines, they will axe the entire 40k hobby imo, and thats never going to happen. As long as people still buy the kits, Marines will keep on trucking imo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/31 01:59:14


 
   
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 Crusaderobr wrote:
Part of the problem is Chaos Space Marines are also considered old Marines. If they get rid of old Marines they would have to get rid of Chaos Marines too, which I do not think will happen.

That... doesn't follow. There isn't any logic connecting one premise to the other.

If they double down on Legions, particularly, they're not changing to Primaris because they are _old_ marines. They can fiddle with whatever justification (or new 'hybrid' kits) for renegades (or spew some nonsense justifying a lack of primaris renegades), but Chaos Marines don't have to follow the same path, either in the fluff or with model sales. Paradoxically, because Chaos Marines live in the Eye or the Maelstrom, they're effectively immune to the 'primaris change.'

They're getting two wounds. They're getting the updated weapons. If, in the next chaos codex, Legion traits become two-part traits like chapter traits and they get some sort of doctrine-like rule (much like necrons are getting protocols), there will be pretty minimal backlash (well, once those books actually happen).

Why would GW shelve old Marines? They keep on refreshing kits over and over and over again,

Yeah, but they aren't any more are they? As Ordana says, there aren't new oldmarine kits coming out.
In editions past, new codexes usually came with new tacticals, assaults or devastators. Or they came with the special snowflake chapters, like the BA tacticals.
8th edition? 9th edition? Nope. Not a refresh of those kits to be seen. Not even when the 8th edition codex happened twice.

and Chaos just got a refresh on almost all of the kits last year and got a new HQ and other new options to boot..

Yep. Chaos did. And... not a thing involved primaris.
There are some fluff hints that there will be a chaos response to primaris (particularly in the Fabius Bile novel), but it doesn't have to be 'chaos primaris.' Some new monstrosities, or more things like the 'greater possessed.'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/31 02:32:47


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 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?
Certain people will soon be hear to tell you about the release of a limited edition Terminator model (not a First Born Marine, it's a Terminator), or because of the Japanese blind-box Marines, GW are still making Marines. Some might even try to claim that FW HH releases count.

Of course none of these do. There hasn't been a regular Marine release in a very long time, and whilst I've yet to go through the 9th rulebook, I'd be surprised if there were any new art featuring First Born Marines.

   
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I still think they'll "go away", but at some point they'll converge so much it won't matter.

No idea what that'd mean for the fluff though.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I still think they'll "go away", but at some point they'll converge so much it won't matter.

No idea what that'd mean for the fluff though.


'We used to do it this way, now we do it the new way'
Recruits are new way only, old marines have all made the transition or died.

Easy. Datasheets suddenly drop to allow for an less-unreasonably-sized codex.

The big question will be is if they integrate the special/heavy Cawl weaponry into old-style squads or stick to the hyper-specialization.
The former has the advantage of letting people adapt like nothing ever happened, while still encouraging people to buy new kits.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/31 04:39:46


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 Crusaderobr wrote:
Part of the problem is Chaos Space Marines are also considered old Marines. If they get rid of old Marines they would have to get rid of Chaos Marines too, which I do not think will happen. Why would GW shelve old Marines? They keep on refreshing kits over and over and over again, and Chaos just got a refresh on almost all of the kits last year and got a new HQ and other new options to boot.

If GW axes old Marines, they will axe the entire 40k hobby imo, and thats never going to happen. As long as people still buy the kits, Marines will keep on trucking imo.

The problem is that Chaos Marines have also been getting bigger.

Here's the thing: If the plan had been to keep regular, old marines all along, then the new Chaos Marine kits would have been the same size as the old ones. Because if that's still supposed to be the size of a 'normal' marine, then Chaos Marines, who have been around since long before Primaris were a thing, have no reason to be any larger.

Instead, all of the recent Chaos kits have been embiggened to be just fractionally shorter than Primaris. Which makes it quite clear that this is the size that Marines are 'supposed' to be now.

Minimarines will go, eventually. GW are just giving people time to get used to Primaris being the thing now. As more of the old kits go to mail order only, and people buy the Primaris kits instead because they're more readily available and mostly look better, more and more armies will come to be solely made up of Primaris units, and those units that are no longer making their way onto the table will be quietly shuffled off.


 
   
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Normalizing all the old profiles closer to their Primaris replacements provides a potential means of providing retroactive support while still phasing out the old line- let Intercessors take special and heavy weapons and presto, you have a way to field your old Tactical models. Maybe Firstborn won't disappear into Legends; maybe they'll just get folded into their Primaris replacements.

I'll admit I expected to see absolutely nothing until they eventually get Legends, but given the evidence, the writing is still on the wall for Firstborn.

I mean, let's talk strict facts here:
-No new Firstborn models as part of any regular line or release.
-Chaos Marines got updated with a new scale that has not translated to loyalist Firstborn in any way.
-Fluff outright stating that Primaris are the way forward, with all named chapters accepting the upgrade either wholeheartedly or begrudgingly.
-Just about all named characters becoming Primaris.

To me it seems hopelessly optimistic to think that the plan is for Firstborn to stick around in perpetuity (let alone be on the cusp of a new wave of releases), as a totally separate model line with its own rules, while all the characters you've known and loved for decades have already become Primaris and no longer have any Firstborn rules. The best case for long-time Marine players is that the rules converge Firstborn and Primaris such that they can continue to use their old models with the newest rules, as is already the case with those characters.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/31 05:03:51


 
   
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Well they will be "phased out" like every other old kit. At some point there's a Primaris Version of every old marine and they'll stop selling the old Marines but as right now with Rogue Trader beakies or Pariahs you can still use them, just in a different composition. All your Plasma Marines will be Helblasters, all Meltas are Eradicators, Bikes are Bikes and until then there will also be Primaris with missile launchers and flamers. It's basically what we Chaos players did with our Bolter and special weapon Havocs, they're simply Chosen or normal CSM now.
   
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I agree that, maybe, at the very start they had intended on phasing out original marines; however, I think the realization of the new release schedule quickly made them realize that would be silly.

They need to keep releasing new space marine kits every few months. Thus the only real option is to re-do all the Firstborn kits. It'll be <redacted> cheap for R&D with the new CAD support to create all the different kits. So it should keep the profits and growth flowing for years to come.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 06:06:21


 
   
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 Super Ready wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Then why bother with Primaris at all, if you're just going to make them exactly the same as normal marines?


Numerous reasons, really.

For GW's side, they:
- can sell new Marines to existing Marines players, who are by far the largest single target market GW has but in many cases might not be tempted by a new Tacticals box
- get to upset the meta balance and drive further sales to competitive players that way (ok, this could have been done with any faction)
- can use the scale creep to creep up other factions to suit later, too.

For the players, we got two long-standing gripes dealt with:
- truescale Marines
- something approaching Movie Marines.

I'm not saying that Primaris addresses everything here perfectly, but each approach (including doing nothing) has its own merits and flaws.

Also, I think you might be missing the endgoal. If this "merge" happens, the idea will be that the old Marines will no longer be produced, and you'll only be able to buy Primaris from GW as new stock.
Just $$$$$$$$$$

That's all.

Stat increases and scale increases could have happened without Primaris.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Crusaderobr wrote:
Anyone who thought Primaris was going to " replace " regular Marines, or that regular Marines were going to phase out, well hopefully you all can see that it is simply not true. GW is a company first and foremost, and all they did was create more kits to sell to us 40k fans. The regular Marines will always be here, just like Eldar, Dark Eldar, and all of the other original races will always be here. People still purchase all the old kits, and they will continue to offer them to 40k customers. GW has no reason to phase them out or get rid of them, so they will be here to stay. Even the Space Marine codex's support the fact that Primaris and Normal Space Marines work together to fight the foes of humanity. Will we see any brand new kits for regular Marines? Now that is a good question, one that I cannot answer. Hope you guys are having a great weekend and enjoying 9th in your basement. I know me and my friends are. Here's to the best edition of 40k yet, and as an Eldar/Tau player, im not mad about Primaris Space Marines getting all these new kits and shiny stuff. Let the players and 40k fans have it all, so that the hobby can survive! The more Space Marines that are on the table the more for our Xenos armies to obliterate and destroy! haha cheers!


GW had plenty of reasons to get rid of old marines and replace with with the lore abominations that are Primaris. Mainly the release of Primaris allows them to eventually invalidate all the old marines floating around on the used models market which is money that GW can't profit off of. It forces existing marine players to eventually buy new models and makes it difficult/impossible for old models to be recirculated to new players or players looking to start marine armies. I think the inital plan was to phase them out rapidly but the initial backlash probably made them worry about causing a rapid collapse of the fan base if they just came out with the 8th SM codex without having rules for old marines. You can see it in some of their odd rules decisions such as Primaris not being able to use Drop Pods, Rhinos, Land Raiders, etc when you can put much bigger units in Pods such as Terminators (which can also go in land raiders), Centurions, and even a Dreadnought.

GW turned course because they (for whatever reason) determined that such a sweeping set of model invalidation would cause an uproar and potentially be rejected by the community. Last thing GW wants is 40k players to start playing with organized rulesets not made by GW themselves as it takes away one of their primary marketing tools.

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Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

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Invalidating the secondary market was probably the main reason. The other is that Tactical squads have options... which is confusing for new players, who sometimes put what looks cool rsther than what's meta-optimal on their units. So they make Primaris kits, which are one-weapon, so little Timmy can't make that mistake, *and* the rules are so good that the army kind of pilots itself.
   
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 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?


using that logic Tyranids are getting squatted.

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BrianDavion wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?


using that logic Tyranids are getting squatted.


Tyranids don't occupy the same space in the game as Astartes do.
   
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Hecaton wrote:
Invalidating the secondary market was probably the main reason. The other is that Tactical squads have options... which is confusing for new players, who sometimes put what looks cool rsther than what's meta-optimal on their units. So they make Primaris kits, which are one-weapon, so little Timmy can't make that mistake, *and* the rules are so good that the army kind of pilots itself.


Little Timmy can buy multiple boxes of the same unit if he regrets the loadout he gave to his marines though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/31 07:43:53


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Enforcing WYSIWYG in a game that sells options and then consistently reshufles them is crazy anti consumer. Funny how competitive players embrace that under the pretense that it is harder to play against otherwise.

In any case, it is quite clear that for quite some time primaris options have been superior from a gameplay perspective to their first born equivalents. Upping the wounds on first born is unlikely to change that, although it might help sell a few old specialist kits. I sincerily doubt anyone will be fielding tactical marines any time soon.
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Then why bother with Primaris at all, if you're just going to make them exactly the same as normal marines?

Old-school Marines represent the dark age, while Primaris the uprise to the age of renaissance.
I prefer old-school Marines for my BA, especially for the signature units such as DC.

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Grey40k wrote:
Enforcing WYSIWYG in a game that sells options and then consistently reshufles them is crazy anti consumer. Funny how competitive players embrace that under the pretense that it is harder to play against otherwise.

GW has never made any particularly strong demands for WYSIWYG. It has barely even existed in the rules of most editions of the game. It is, and always has been, a player convention intended to make the game less confusing to play, and for the most part exactly how strictly it is followed has always been up to the players.

 
   
 
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