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 Insectum7 wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.

Had they instead made primaris rulesand stats in the same way they have done different versions of Stormcasts in AoS, noone would belive or think that old marines was beeing removed.
With original/classic/true marines going to 2W, Primaris lost their biggest advantage over them. Imo the equipment options put the classics squarely ahead in most circumstances. Vanguard well outperform Assault Intercessors for example, and for the moment standard Assault Squads have the advantage too, with sergeant equipment, Flamers/Plasma Pistols, Eviscerators and Jump Packs. We'll see what the codex brings though.

Indeed, old-school Marines would get the lead when compared with Primaris.
Laughable.

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^By "Laughable" you mean, "The way it should be."

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It’s called “having their cake and eating it”. Keep selling Firstborn while the moulds have tens of thousands of presses left in them and it avoids nerd backlashes. Keep making new Primaris models. Print money.

 Stormonu wrote:
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 Insectum7 wrote:
With original/classic/true marines going to 2W, Primaris lost their biggest advantage over them. Imo the equipment options put the classics squarely ahead in most circumstances. Vanguard well outperform Assault Intercessors for example, and for the moment standard Assault Squads have the advantage too, with sergeant equipment, Flamers/Plasma Pistols, Eviscerators and Jump Packs. We'll see what the codex brings though.


Ideas as to why have already been floated.
Another is as a test to see if buffs will result in more firstborn profits.
Yet another could be as a means of offloading product with enough time between the sale and more acceptably retiring those kits.

I'm 100% with you, before seeing all the changes in the codex, the wounds parity and options pretty much reverse some Prims to obsolescence. At the same time, options are a flimsy pedestal to stand on. Equivalent Primaris options can be added at any time.
   
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Tycho wrote:
The Guilliman books. Cawl keeps begging to be allowed to make Traitor Pimaris, Guilliman says no, and if Cawl does Guilliman will kill him for it. Then they let it drop in this awkward way that kind of implies Cawl already did followed by Grandpapa Smurt admitting he doesn't trust Cawl (Ergo its just a matter of time)....


Which books? Dark Imperium and Plague War? Because as I recall there's maybe one quick section where it's mentioned Cawl would want to try one of the original Legions (who eventually went traitor) but that's really not at all the same as saying "Cawl is gonna make traitor Primaris!" It's an awfully big leap imo. Even for this setting. Especially since Chaos has Bile who is much more likely to have an answer. Or they can just be lazy and say "Chaos Magic", "Warp Exposure", something, something, dark side, and now CSM are bigger. lol

And no one trusts Cawl. That's the beauty of Cawl. His own people don't even trust him.


I read them back to back so it's hard to say which but that's the section. There was something about the way they described Cawl - not the dialogue but the scene setting/set direction/whatever you want to call it - that made me think "Too late! He already did it!". I just had this image in my head of a little kid walking out of a devastated flour covered kitchen into the living room asking his mom if he could make them all pancakes and then being told no - this panicked "What do I do now" look.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
^By "Laughable" you mean, "The way it should be."

Indeed, in AoS the heavy armored models have 2W too.
So its a logical consequence.

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 wuestenfux wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^By "Laughable" you mean, "The way it should be."

Indeed, in AoS the heavy armored models have 2W too.
So its a logical consequence.
Oh I don't care about the 2W, just the fact that Primaris take their rightful place as inferior marines.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.

Had they instead made primaris rulesand stats in the same way they have done different versions of Stormcasts in AoS, noone would belive or think that old marines was beeing removed.
With original/classic/true marines going to 2W, Primaris lost their biggest advantage over them. Imo the equipment options put the classics squarely ahead in most circumstances. Vanguard well outperform Assault Intercessors for example, and for the moment standard Assault Squads have the advantage too, with sergeant equipment, Flamers/Plasma Pistols, Eviscerators and Jump Packs. We'll see what the codex brings though.


One edition too late.
Had old marines and primaris been at 2W as early as 8th index stage,(or primaris at 1W) noone would have given primaris any toughts other then: ohh GW is trying out new designs, inntresting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 08:27:42


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 Argive wrote:
My tinfoil hat theory is that this is the last edition for mini marines.

They get brought in line with primaris in terms of wounds/ increased range and very similair point cost eroding the difference between the two. People get to use their mini marines with all the OPness of the current rules paradigm, realising they are basically the same thing as intercessors... GW announces that primaris are "space marines" to cut bloat and axes old marines for the new 10th edition with the primaris being in all intents and purposes a basic space marine and the word primaris ceases to exist. And it gets sort of forgotten about in the fluff..


Except they're not. Tacs have a Heavy/Special, "mini-marines" have assault and vaguard vets, Primaris just got Melta and a little Las after being (mostly)limited to Plas and Dakka. Old Marines probably are going away. But not until the archetypical units for all the basics and chapter-specific flavors are figured out. This means Jump Assaults for everybody, but especially for BA and SW, Bikers for WS, SW, and DA, Termies for DA and IF, Sternguard for UM, etc

Its not going to be hard to make a Redemptor with a Lightning Claw - Bjorn
Likewise Murderfang/Libby/Furiouso/DC Dreads
Indomitus Cap? Aggressor? with a Thunderhammer? - Lysander is kind of tricky yet, but a TH, Heavy Bolt Pistol, SS Indomitus Cap isn't a hard starting point for Lysander
Aggressor with Flamers is an easy base for Vulkan
A new Outrider kit for Korsarro Khan is also easy to imagine on the horizon
We already have Shrike, but nothing for him to hop around with - and he'd make a good base for Dante/Sanguinor
We need Cassius to turn Primaris as well, not for UM, but for Deathwatch.
Indomitus Cap for Belial is easy.
Sammael is completely unique.
Azrael is also pretty easy - The original Primaris Cap with a Watcher in the Dark holding the winged helmet

I don't think we've seen the base unit the "replacement" Baal Predator will be.
Most of the Rhino Chassis have been cross-referenced by the Impulsor - Bellicatus kind of replacing Whirlwind and/or Hunter/Stalker (whichever one has the missiles) the Comms Array is basically a Vindicator, the dakka stubber = HB Razorbacks.
We're missing the Predator no transport Tank.
Land Speeders - This might be Inceptors and you just have to squint to see it.
Flyers/Aircraft - Air Superiority, Ground Attack, and Assault Gunship.

The process will probalby hit GK/DW last, they may be expected to use up the last few (relatively speaking compared to GW volume) model kits.
Edit to add/refine/clarify:

There are two checklists I think have to be finished before they more than soft-squat - as the term is - Old Marines.

The bread and butter units/roles like the afore mentioned Assault Marines, and Aircraft

And the Four Elements. If you imagine Flamers/Las/Plas/Grav as Earth Wind, Fire and Water - each element kind of takes a turn being the flavor of the month in various editions. They're going to have to check those boxes as well.

Right now flame is pretty much limited to Aggressors, Melta to Eradicators, and Las to Eliminators. That's going to have to pass around a little more - Plas is covered between Inceptors/Hellblasters in two FOC slots. Melta is going to have to hit the FA or Elite, Flame is going to have to hit FA or HS, and Grav is going to have to hit both.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 08:45:17


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Breton wrote:
 Argive wrote:
My tinfoil hat theory is that this is the last edition for mini marines.

They get brought in line with primaris in terms of wounds/ increased range and very similair point cost eroding the difference between the two. People get to use their mini marines with all the OPness of the current rules paradigm, realising they are basically the same thing as intercessors... GW announces that primaris are "space marines" to cut bloat and axes old marines for the new 10th edition with the primaris being in all intents and purposes a basic space marine and the word primaris ceases to exist. And it gets sort of forgotten about in the fluff..


Except they're not. Tacs have a Heavy/Special, "mini-marines" have assault and vaguard vets, Primaris just got Melta and a little Las after being (mostly)limited to Plas and Dakka. Old Marines probably are going away. But not until the archetypical units for all the basics and chapter-specific flavors are figured out. This means Jump Assaults for everybody, but especially for BA and SW, Bikers for WS, SW, and DA, Termies for DA and IF, Sternguard for UM, etc

Its not going to be hard to make a Redemptor with a Lightning Claw - Bjorn
Likewise Murderfang/Libby/Furiouso/DC Dreads
Indomitus Cap? Aggressor? with a Thunderhammer? - Lysander is kind of tricky yet, but a TH, Heavy Bolt Pistol, SS Indomitus Cap isn't a hard starting point for Lysander
Aggressor with Flamers is an easy base for Vulkan
A new Outrider kit for Korsarro Khan is also easy to imagine on the horizon
We already have Shrike, but nothing for him to hop around with.
We need Cassius to turn Primaris as well, not for UM, but for Deathwatch.
Indomitus Cap for Belial is easy.
Sammael is completely unique.
Azrael is also pretty easy - The original Primaris Cap with a Watcher in the Dark holding the winged helmet

I don't think we've seen the base unit the "replacement" Baal Predator will be.
Most of the Rhino Chassis have been cross-referenced by the Impulsor - Bellicatus kind of replacing Whirlwind and/or Hunter/Stalker (whichever one has the missiles) the Comms Array is basically a Vindicator, the dakka stubber = HB Razorbacks.
We're missing the Predator no transport Tank.
Land Speeders - This might be Inceptors and you just have to squint to see it.
Flyers/Aircraft - Air Superiority, Ground Attack, and Assault Gunship.

The process will probalby hit GK/DW last, they may be expected to use up the last few (relatively speaking compared to GW volume) model kits.


Argive's got the name conversion off. Space Marine is an overly generic name for this type of product. Just like all their naming changes recently, they're going to use more unique names for the genre.

Options are a fragile difference between the general Primaris and Mini-marines. It certainly favors the first born right now but any of the GW's update methods can quickly add options to rules followed by a new kit/upgrade, or visa versa.

I'm struggling to understand the relevance of your conversion list. Not a dig, I just don't get what it has to do with the near-homogenization through rules of both types.

For the missing unit list, speeder and predator equivalents are already leaked. GW probably wants a new kit to entice sales, but they could go the route of just claiming the former fliers are being piloted by Primaris. The Interceptor is probably the best suited to this, but a big stretch might work for the other two. Faction specific Primaris units can be held off until their respective supplements are released. Some of the others are needed, but not every unit and option has to have a direct equivalent. So long as they have Infantry and vehicle-borne AT/AI in both ranged and melee forms, all HQ positions, and AA + Beyond LoS capable units they can fill the holes afterward.
   
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 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.



actually when Primaris where first released they where widely considered to be "not so hot" as they where over pointed for what they did.

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BrianDavion wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.



actually when Primaris where first released they where widely considered to be "not so hot" as they where over pointed for what they did.
GW pulled a reverse Riot. Make something "bad" so people don't make a fuss. Marines, in general, were extremely weak at the start of 8th (an anomaly all on it's own), and then Primaris became better in every regard with SM 2.0. Almost like GW wanted to introduce the replacement as "bad" so people wouldn't make a fuss, and then make them an objective upgrade later on when detractors would be shouted down by White Knights, pointing out they didn't complain before.

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I have a question for our AoS players who happen to play WH40K too.

Did AoS really Squat your WHFB armies?

I was in the process of starting a Bretonnian force just as AoS happened so I never even finished making my knights up (i've got a couple of squads of Men at Arms and Archers painted).

Did AoS mean your WHFB armies never saw the table again? I remember talk of people wanting to just use their <fill in blank> army as a <fill in blank> army in a "Counts as" way.

Even if the same happened to the Mini-Marines would it not still be feasible to table them in some manner in the Primaris universe?

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Kayback wrote:
I have a question for our AoS players who happen to play WH40K too.

Did AoS really Squat your WHFB armies?

I was in the process of starting a Bretonnian force just as AoS happened so I never even finished making my knights up (i've got a couple of squads of Men at Arms and Archers painted).

Did AoS mean your WHFB armies never saw the table again? I remember talk of people wanting to just use their <fill in blank> army as a <fill in blank> army in a "Counts as" way.

Even if the same happened to the Mini-Marines would it not still be feasible to table them in some manner in the Primaris universe?


Depends on the army. High Elves got removed entirely as they were along with Tomb Kings. Others saw models phased out completely leaving entire old world factions without enough units to field a force. Then the rest was split up between disparate factions.

I have quite a collection of Dark Elf and High Elf models, but the high elf models are at best "counts as" in AoS, and the Dark Elf models are divided between Daughters of Khaine and the cold leftovers in Cities of Sigmar. Currently planning on using my high elves as "counts as" Cities of Sigmar army.

Basically it is kinda impossible to field an old world army as a 1 to 1 representation in AoS due to how factions were split up or eradicated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 11:21:08


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Do SM get more love because they are the best selling faction or are they the best selling faction because they get more love (From GW)

Also can it possibly be fair in the long terms that GW give SM such a large selection of units to choose from and some armies are much more narrow.

If they aren’t careful 40K will just become SM vs SM most of the time, if it isn’t already
   
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Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I'm struggling to understand the relevance of your conversion list. Not a dig, I just don't get what it has to do with the near-homogenization through rules of both types.

For the missing unit list, speeder and predator equivalents are already leaked. GW probably wants a new kit to entice sales, but they could go the route of just claiming the former fliers are being piloted by Primaris. The Interceptor is probably the best suited to this, but a big stretch might work for the other two. Faction specific Primaris units can be held off until their respective supplements are released. Some of the others are needed, but not every unit and option has to have a direct equivalent. So long as they have Infantry and vehicle-borne AT/AI in both ranged and melee forms, all HQ positions, and AA + Beyond LoS capable units they can fill the holes afterward.


I don't see them getting rid of old marines until the iconic things that were the reason people played their given chapter are new marine. The list is an off the top of my head list of things that could/would/should qualify as iconic for SM in general, or a chapter in specific - meaning until that list has a new marine corollary, I think they're unlikely to cancel the old marine.

I'll be the first to say GW isn't always the brightest bulb in the box, but I hope they'd not be foolish enough to tell people that after years of not being able to put a Primaris in a Razorback, that same Primaris are now turning and burning from the cramped cockpit of a Stormtalon.

Sub-faction specific units are absolutely going to be held until their supplement releases. Not a doubt in anyone's mind of that. I expect even basic but iconic units could be spread out over supplement releases (i.e. jumpy punchy Primaris released with the BA Supplement) so there's a BA specific Pimaris Assault Marine kit, and a generic all chapters Primaris Assault Marine kit The Marine ATV Attack Bike thing could be in a holding pattern for Dark Angels supplement release. Outriders + ATV + Speeder-thing works out pretty similar to the Ravenwing Attack Squadron of the past.

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mrFickle wrote:
Do SM get more love because they are the best selling faction or are they the best selling faction because they get more love (From GW)

Also can it possibly be fair in the long terms that GW give SM such a large selection of units to choose from and some armies are much more narrow.

If they aren’t careful 40K will just become SM vs SM most of the time, if it isn’t already
SM are easy and more forgiving to new players. GW wants to bring in new blood for fresh money from Timmy's Mothers Boyfriend's credit card, so they can play for a few weeks then quit, freeing up space for Billy to come in.

SM are pushed to new players, so are the most popular and best selling faction, so get new releases because they know they will make money like it's going out of style.

Meanwhile, armies like Eldar or Orks are a much harder sell, so GW don't bother supporting them, leading to even fewer people playing them. Just look at the time between releases for SoB and Space Marines. One is measured in decades, the other in weeks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/02 11:43:39


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Kayback wrote:
I have a question for our AoS players who happen to play WH40K too.

Did AoS really Squat your WHFB armies?

I was in the process of starting a Bretonnian force just as AoS happened so I never even finished making my knights up (i've got a couple of squads of Men at Arms and Archers painted).

Did AoS mean your WHFB armies never saw the table again? I remember talk of people wanting to just use their <fill in blank> army as a <fill in blank> army in a "Counts as" way.

Even if the same happened to the Mini-Marines would it not still be feasible to table them in some manner in the Primaris universe?


I haven't played a game of WHFB since they squatted BOTH my armies.

I had a Bretonnian force. I had a Tomb Kings Army. I never wanted to use my Bretonians as something else. I've seen people who wanted to use Brets as Vampire Counts in a Red Duke kind of way but they wanted to play VC because of the VC rules, and I played Brets for their rules. The problem wasn't they squatted the models the problem was they squatted the rules.

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Breton wrote:
. The problem wasn't they squatted the models the problem was they squatted the rules.


Would that still apply to Firstborn? Nah, they're just Primaris standing far away.

I'd forgotten they completely eliminated the Tomb Kings (and High Elves) that annoyed me too. Years ago I had a great idea for an Undead Cadian army and when I went in to buy some Tomb Kings to kitbash the store owner looked at me like I lived under a rock having missed the news.

I'm of the opinion that so long as the SM exist you can always use Firstborn in a friendly or FLGS game setting. Sure it sucks for competitive play having to buy a new SM army just because, but even if Firstborn are moved to Legends/Squatted I don't see people not still fielding the actual models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 14:45:25


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 Super Ready wrote:
I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.
The idea being that by the time 10th rolls around, GW can say "you know what, there's really not much difference in these units, we're rolling them into similar units.

I'm not entirely sure that, if this is true, it will come to pass all that smoothly - there'd have to be some more homogenisation come to pass first. Tacs and Intercessors are fairly easily lined up - but there are still a lot of differences between Assault Marines/Inceptors, and Devastators/Eliminators.

Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

What advantage exactly are they getting from this over just moving all firstborn to direct order only?

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Breton wrote:

I don't see them getting rid of old marines until the iconic things that were the reason people played their given chapter are new marine. The list is an off the top of my head list of things that could/would/should qualify as iconic for SM in general, or a chapter in specific - meaning until that list has a new marine corollary, I think they're unlikely to cancel the old marine.

I'll be the first to say GW isn't always the brightest bulb in the box, but I hope they'd not be foolish enough to tell people that after years of not being able to put a Primaris in a Razorback, that same Primaris are now turning and burning from the cramped cockpit of a Stormtalon.

Sub-faction specific units are absolutely going to be held until their supplement releases. Not a doubt in anyone's mind of that. I expect even basic but iconic units could be spread out over supplement releases (i.e. jumpy punchy Primaris released with the BA Supplement) so there's a BA specific Pimaris Assault Marine kit, and a generic all chapters Primaris Assault Marine kit The Marine ATV Attack Bike thing could be in a holding pattern for Dark Angels supplement release. Outriders + ATV + Speeder-thing works out pretty similar to the Ravenwing Attack Squadron of the past.


I see what you were saying now. Thank you for clearing it up for me. Yea, many of the chapter unique units won't take much work to Primarisize, but 3-5 years should be enough to get them done. For the more outlandish ones, I'm a lot less confident that they will replace all of them, mostly because they're relegating the separate codex chapters to supplements again.

LOL. I did qualify the flier statement with it being a big stretch. Know no Fear did have Primaris riding in a Stormraven, but I concede to your point. I wouldn't have been too bothered, but I can imagine a majority having issue with it. Either way, a pair of fliers isn't a tough ask.

I'm with you on the BA and Assault equivalents, and the non-Indomitus outriders. You know they're adding stuff in October and I'd guess that at least the ATV or Speeder, if not both show up with the codex. I would just say the ATV (to supplement outriders) but the Speeder's been pseudo leaked (ready) for longer. Then the predator equivalent out before BA, so that the Baal can come with them.
   
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Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I see what you were saying now. Thank you for clearing it up for me. Yea, many of the chapter unique units won't take much work to Primarisize, but 3-5 years should be enough to get them done. For the more outlandish ones, I'm a lot less confident that they will replace all of them, mostly because they're relegating the separate codex chapters to supplements again.

LOL. I did qualify the flier statement with it being a big stretch. Know no Fear did have Primaris riding in a Stormraven, but I concede to your point. I wouldn't have been too bothered, but I can imagine a majority having issue with it. Either way, a pair of fliers isn't a tough ask.

I'm with you on the BA and Assault equivalents, and the non-Indomitus outriders. You know they're adding stuff in October and I'd guess that at least the ATV or Speeder, if not both show up with the codex. I would just say the ATV (to supplement outriders) but the Speeder's been pseudo leaked (ready) for longer. Then the predator equivalent out before BA, so that the Baal can come with them.


Some of them might never "Cross the Rubicon Primaris" as GW likes to call it. In the first place, if a couple minor characters die, it helps "Grimdark" how dangerous the surgery is. Likewise it gives them a fluffy reason to replace IP they want to swap out. Dante is something like 1100 years old. Not that he's who I'm thinking of. Vulkan and Lysander both stayed old school while their chapter got a new Primaris hotness. Vulkan was screaming Flamer Aggressor holding a spear. When they didn't cross his Rubicon I started hoping his insurance was paid up. Lysander is the trickiest one with Termie Armor, zero shooting and a Thunderhammer. The easiest one to dump is probably Cassius. He's 800 years old, his face is falling off of his steel skull, and even though they keep making a new Primaris chaplain whose face is falling off his steel skull, it's not been Cassius. UM Already have a ton of Specials, Deathwatch will need more. Exit Cassius the unplanned dinner entre for a lucky Hive Tyrant, enter Castor and Pollux the two DW characters - one captain, one chaplain/librarian/lietuenant who will rise from his ashes more determined than ever to uphold his legacy. Or something.

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 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

What advantage exactly are they getting from this over just moving all firstborn to direct order only?
Just a thought but this is a perfect opportunity to create buzz with a new codex coming out. After that they will just go to a direct order only or something similar.

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 Xenomancers wrote:

Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.


Which is irrelevant if GW keeps non primaris units in the codexes. Dark eldar and sisters didn't get a release for ages and still have been viable armies. In fact I wouldn't even want to buy new stuff, SM roster is already wide and has tons of options for any possibile kind of lists. Even without primaris.

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Breton wrote:

Some of them might never "Cross the Rubicon Primaris" as GW likes to call it. In the first place, if a couple minor characters die, it helps "Grimdark" how dangerous the surgery is. Likewise it gives them a fluffy reason to replace IP they want to swap out. Dante is something like 1100 years old. Not that he's who I'm thinking of. Vulkan and Lysander both stayed old school while their chapter got a new Primaris hotness. Vulkan was screaming Flamer Aggressor holding a spear. When they didn't cross his Rubicon I started hoping his insurance was paid up. Lysander is the trickiest one with Termie Armor, zero shooting and a Thunderhammer. The easiest one to dump is probably Cassius. He's 800 years old, his face is falling off of his steel skull, and even though they keep making a new Primaris chaplain whose face is falling off his steel skull, it's not been Cassius. UM Already have a ton of Specials, Deathwatch will need more. Exit Cassius the unplanned dinner entre for a lucky Hive Tyrant, enter Castor and Pollux the two DW characters - one captain, one chaplain/librarian/lietuenant who will rise from his ashes more determined than ever to uphold his legacy. Or something.


It's kind of boring to keep agreeing with you but when someone makes sense, they make sense. What you're saying coincides with much of my thinking. As I've stated elsewhere, and what you've alluded to, there's enough going on in the fluff and time before 10th edition to write the demise of many named characters. The same thing for not every single first born unit having an exact 1-to-1 replacement, both unique ones and generic. So long as they fulfill all the standard roles and have a means for chapter definition, first born can be discontinued. I'd even argue that a few gaps can exist when that occurs, so long as they're filled in decent time.

It will be unfortunate when my firstborn collection becomes obsolete but the oldest stuff I have (about 1/4 of my marines/vehicles) is from ~2003 and they've had a good run.
   
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Honestly Cassius still being alive is one of the worst instances of plot armour in the game. Ultramarines barely make it past 400. The reason Dante and Logan are still kicking is that BA and SW geneseed makes them exceptionally long lived (Being Vampire IN SPAAAAAAAAACE and Werewolves IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!!!!), even for Space Marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 18:46:03


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 Blackie wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.


Which is irrelevant if GW keeps non primaris units in the codexes. Dark eldar and sisters didn't get a release for ages and still have been viable armies. In fact I wouldn't even want to buy new stuff, SM roster is already wide and has tons of options for any possibile kind of lists. Even without primaris.


I'm not going to say it's impossible, but there's a difference with DE/SoB being different factions and having redundant units within the same army. To then have to continuously manage their profiles without the benefit of kit sales lacks justification, much less incentive, for GW to do so. Assuming they dump them in 10th, 3-8 years isn't an entirely unreasonable timeframe to use a kit, and many collections were started well before 8th/Primaris.

If they don't halt mini-marine production & sales within 1 or 2 years, that would make the cost-to-use ratio too bad even for my most generous calculations (which would take a longer, 5-year edition). That's going to be our (or at least my) trigger to retract a 10th ed prediction of non-primaris' end.
   
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Cap'n Failboat wrote:

Assuming they dump them in 10th, 3-8 years isn't an entirely unreasonable timeframe to use a kit, and many collections were started well before 8th/Primaris.


A kit certainly not, but an entire army? I was ok with GW putting to legend old big gunz and buggies/wartrakks since they were just a few units in an entire roster. Mek gunz and the new buggies vs big gunz and old buggies are basically like primaris vs classic marines, except in the second case we're talking about dozens of kits and entire collections of models that worth thousand of points.

So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me. GW could easily stop producing older kits but keeping the rules in the codexes, orks got their Big mek with KFF in the latest supplement despite the model has been OOP since a decade. It's not a huge effort to keep 30ish datasheets updated. GW guys don't put much effort in making the game rules anyway And they'd only be 15ish pages to print.

GW maybe thinks it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again, but if they squat my SW I'd just keep the orks or eventually I'd start a new faction. I honestly don't see any appeal in re-buying the same dudes I already own just with bigger and updated kits.

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GW seems to be making a lot of armies in AoS that are made out of 3 units and 4-5 characters.

They could do it with some marines.

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