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Will boyz be competitive
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Just because you have an anti-horde unit doesn't mean you can't beat marines. The whole army doesn't need to be focused on killing marines to get wins against them.


That wasn't the question.... You have a tendency to create a lot of strawman arguments bud.

The question was why do people compare weapons performance vs Space Marines. And I gave that answer, because most opponents are Space Marines of one flavor or another. To add to that initial point, they are the yard stick GW has imposed upon us by sheer dint of popularity.

If you want to compare how good a unit is vs something else, feel free to. I use the measurement against a Tac marine because that is literally the yard stick I have personally used for over a decade, because they are without a doubt the most common defensive profile I run into in games.


Dude. You're missing the points so often my head is spinning.

You: "This gun isn't good against marines"
Them : "Ok, but it isn't a marine killing gun"
You: "That doesn't matter, because there are lots of marine players so I need to see how it can kill marines"
Me: "You don't need it to kill marines well to win games against marines"
You: "Strawman!"


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:


Dude. You're missing the points so often my head is spinning.

You: "This gun isn't good against marines"
Them : "Ok, but it isn't a marine killing gun"
You: "That doesn't matter, because there are lots of marine players so I need to see how it can kill marines"
Me: "You don't need it to kill marines well to win games against marines"
You: "Strawman!"



Alright, lets break out the crayons for Daed.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah. I don't know why people keeps comparing how good a unit is (Not saying shoota boyz are good) agaisnt the MEQ profile when, heck, right now the top armies all have a different profile, admech, sisters, drukhari.

How much damage does the dakajedt agaisnt a raider? Or wyches? Or Skitarii (That right now until nerfed can be hard as rocks TBH but is not like they'll have all the defensive buffs in the same unit at the same time)?


My response was BECAUSE THAT IS THE MOST COMMON OPPONENT!!!!!!!!!!!!! lets break it down even fething further shall we? Recent LSO Major, 165 Players, 92 of which had armies wearing predominantly power armor. I broke it down earlier on how many were space marines specifically. But 92 had 3+ saves as the baseline for their army. Most of them had T4 and T5 as the baseline for their toughness profile with just SoB being T3. 92. So Why do I compare damage output vs a Space Marine defensive profile? Because its the most likely to make an appearance. And if a multi-shot gun, in this case the dakkajets Supa-Shoota's, is ok at killing Marines its going to do well against those other profiles, in fact i would do even better vs T3 SoB and basically the same vs T5 Custodes and T5 Deathguard.

As far as Anti-Horde....um, how many factions are currently running horde? Pretty sure orkz were the standalone faction running horde for most of 9th so far. I would say maybe nidz/GSC but I literally haven't seen them in so long I can't say.

And just to really drive the point home. We judge a weapons change edition to edition based on the baseline of dmg vs a Marine profile. If you want to look at how useful it is vs Scarabs or other horde units, be my guest. I like to see how useful a weapon is vs the majority of the opponents I am going to face.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Great googly moogly. It's the most common opponent and you can still win games if you have units not specifically geared to fight them. Anti-horde is synonymous with shooting GEQ when you don't care about the unit size like with Blast. Feel free to judge the weapon against marines if you think that will help you make better lists. I'm saying that your concern is overstated.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Great googly moogly. It's the most common opponent and you can still win games if you have units not specifically geared to fight them. Anti-horde is synonymous with shooting GEQ when you don't care about the unit size like with Blast. Feel free to judge the weapon against marines if you think that will help you make better lists. I'm saying that your concern is overstated.


And i'm saying its not over half your opponents at tournaments will be Power armored. You are correct that you can have units not specifically designed to killing Marines, but i'll be honest, I don't bring any unless I'm forced to. Because even when I play against other non-power armored factions like Tau and Kronz, its usually a better bet as an Ork to have S5+ and a lot of shots than it is to bring shoota boyz.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




On the first turn of a Speedwaaagh a Dakkajet gets a 46% return versus Tactical Marines (really feel the Intercessor is the new bar, but go with it) - and this falls to a 40% return in the second. That's a fine return.

Not really sure the arguments about shooting other things hold water - because unfortunately things don't get much better. I mean Skitarii have I think today been nerfed so they can't benefit from a 2+ save. But shooting T3/3+ 8 point models still only gets you the same % returns as above. Shooting a raider is worse at 37% in Speedwaaagh, and the bonus AP is wasted.

That time you get to mow down a whole squad of Wyches will admittedly be worth savoring.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Essentially, this is pretty much the same problem the dakkajet had before. It's great against weakly armored foes, but orks have never really needed much help with killing those.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:
On the first turn of a Speedwaaagh a Dakkajet gets a 46% return versus Tactical Marines (really feel the Intercessor is the new bar, but go with it) - and this falls to a 40% return in the second. That's a fine return.

Not really sure the arguments about shooting other things hold water - because unfortunately things don't get much better. I mean Skitarii have I think today been nerfed so they can't benefit from a 2+ save. But shooting T3/3+ 8 point models still only gets you the same % returns as above. Shooting a raider is worse at 37% in Speedwaaagh, and the bonus AP is wasted.

That time you get to mow down a whole squad of Wyches will admittedly be worth savoring.


Basically this. But I want to emphasize that the Dakkajet HAS to be in a speedwaaagh to really have a chance of making its points back. During a Regular turn, in dakkarange you get 36 shots and 12 hits. If they could have just left the Dakkajet with BS4 I think it would have been fine, but as it stands you are going to need the Speedwaaagh and a bunch of other things to work out in order to get those points back from a unit whose entire purpose is killing infantry since it can't hold objectives.
 Jidmah wrote:
Essentially, this is pretty much the same problem the dakkajet had before. It's great against weakly armored foes, but orks have never really needed much help with killing those.


Yep.

I think the DJ will have its place in the game...but its going to be swingy as hell. If you take 3 of them, call a Speedwaaaagh and get the Freeboota trait to go off you could be looking at 21 hits with those guns which would do some serious dmg in a single turn.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
Basically this. But I want to emphasize that the Dakkajet HAS to be in a speedwaaagh to really have a chance of making its points back. During a Regular turn, in dakkarange you get 36 shots and 12 hits. If they could have just left the Dakkajet with BS4 I think it would have been fine, but as it stands you are going to need the Speedwaaagh and a bunch of other things to work out in order to get those points back from a unit whose entire purpose is killing infantry since it can't hold objectives.


I suspect that's going to be the issue with Ork lists.
I can see most infantry (bar Shootas) working (and being good) in a regular Waaagh List - and I can see most vehicles being good in a Speedwaagh list. But if you don't get the benefits you have units which are significantly worse than they could be, so an equal split of both is probably the wrong call.
I guess Ghaz lets you combine the two - but that seems to just raise more questions.

I think the real losers are things like Lootas and Flash Gitz who fail to significantly benefit from either mechanic - and are probably worse than buggies even before factoring it in.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Basically this. But I want to emphasize that the Dakkajet HAS to be in a speedwaaagh to really have a chance of making its points back. During a Regular turn, in dakkarange you get 36 shots and 12 hits. If they could have just left the Dakkajet with BS4 I think it would have been fine, but as it stands you are going to need the Speedwaaagh and a bunch of other things to work out in order to get those points back from a unit whose entire purpose is killing infantry since it can't hold objectives.


I suspect that's going to be the issue with Ork lists.
I can see most infantry (bar Shootas) working (and being good) in a regular Waaagh List - and I can see most vehicles being good in a Speedwaagh list. But if you don't get the benefits you have units which are significantly worse than they could be, so an equal split of both is probably the wrong call.
I guess Ghaz lets you combine the two - but that seems to just raise more questions.

I think the real losers are things like Lootas and Flash Gitz who fail to significantly benefit from either mechanic - and are probably worse than buggies even before factoring it in.


Lootas are just garbage regardless LOL. I think I found a way to make flashgitz work but as you said, they really don't get a benefit from any of the new rules.


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Alright, the codex has been out for a bit of time, do you guys think its time to redo this poll or should we wait for some more results/tournaments to come in?

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Well, you can do both, I suppose.

   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






After some tests by me and fellow ork players we have a sad verdict. Boyz ==> Shelf.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Tournament results are going to take some time, and I don't really feel like there has been much experience gathered outside of a few select groups.

Maybe wait another week or so?

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
Tournament results are going to take some time, and I don't really feel like there has been much experience gathered outside of a few select groups.

Maybe wait another week or so?


It will take longer than that, I think. It takes a lot of time to play enough games, adjust a list, and play again.

   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I hope people will get enough games in. From what it looks like we are going to have another wave soon, just in time for school start. And this means stuff will be closed soon. But at least there is the rest of the world for look at results.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Well, it looks like we actually had two Ork lists go 5-0 this past weekend.

Beat Sisters, DA, Custodes, Aeldari, Scions & Castellan

Spoiler:
Vroom vroom jank (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [114 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] +++

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Orks 2021) [48 PL, 11CP, 835pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts] +

Deffkilla Wartrike [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts]: 3. Junkboss (Speed Freeks), Da Badskull Banner, Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, Squig-hide Tyres [1 PL, 15pts], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], 3x Twin Boomstick, Warlord

Troops [2 PL, 50pts] +

Gretchin [2 PL, 50pts]: 'Orrible Gitz . . 10x Gretchin [50pts]: 10x Grot Blaster

Elites [8 PL, 140pts] +

Kommandos [4 PL, 55pts] . . Boss Nob [15pts]: Power Klaw [5pts], Slugga, Stikkbombs . . 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Tankbustas [4 PL, 85pts] . . Boss Nob [17pts]: Rokkit Launcha . . 4x Tankbusta [68pts]: 4x Rokkit Launcha

Fast Attack [15 PL, 270pts] +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [5 PL, 90pts] . . Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles

2 X Megatrakk Scrapjets [10 PL, 180pts]

Flyer [16 PL, 240pts] +

2x Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota [20pts], 4x Supa Shoota

++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [66 PL, -5CP, 1,165pts] ++

Clan kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [14 PL, -2CP, 240pts] +

Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -1CP, 145pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Beastchoppa, Beasthide Mantle, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP]
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Da Ded Shiny Shoota, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], Tellyport Blasta [10pts]

Elites [9 PL, 180pts] +

Burna Boyz [6 PL, 120pts] . . 8x Burna Boy [88pts]: 8x Burna, 8x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs
Burna Boyz [3 PL, 60pts] . . 4x Burna Boy [44pts]: 4x Burna, 4x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs

Fast Attack [43 PL, 745pts] +

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [7 PL, 115pts]: Nitro Squigs [2 PL, 25pts] . . Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]

Warbikers [8 PL, 110pts] . . Boss Nob [35pts]: 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw [10pts] . . 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa [75pts]: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun
Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun



Beat DE, SIsters, BA, Sisters, and DA


Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [84 PL, 7CP, 1,390pts] ++

+ Configuration [9CP] +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

Clan Kultur: Blood Axes

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts] +

Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Beastchoppa, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]

+ Elites [10 PL, 105pts] +

Kommandos [8 PL, 80pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 7x Kommando [70pts]: 7x Choppa, 7x Slugga, 7x Stikkbombs

Mek [2 PL, 25pts]: Choppa, I've Got A Plan, Ladz!, Kustom Mega-Slugga, Morgog's Finkin' Cap, Warlord

+ Fast Attack [48 PL, 870pts] +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [10 PL, 180pts]
. Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles
. Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

+ Heavy Support [18 PL, 270pts] +

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 135pts]
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 135pts]
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon




++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [33 PL, -4CP, 610pts] ++

+ Configuration [-3CP] +

Clan Kultur: Deathskulls

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts] +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], 3x Twin Boomstick

+ Elites [8 PL, 100pts] +

Kommandos [4 PL, 50pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Kommandos [4 PL, 50pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

+ Fast Attack [19 PL, 390pts] +

DeffKoptas [6 PL, 150pts]: Boom Boyz
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

++ Total: [117 PL, 3CP, 2,000pts] ++



Automatically Appended Next Post:
( There was also an IH list that went 6-0 beating DE twice, Admech, and DG. )

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/09 18:33:25


   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Yeah, and not a single ork boyz in those lists. Not surprising at all.


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, it looks like we actually had two Ork lists go 5-0 this past weekend.

Beat Sisters, DA, Custodes, Aeldari, Scions & Castellan

Spoiler:
Vroom vroom jank (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [114 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] +++

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Orks 2021) [48 PL, 11CP, 835pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts] +

Deffkilla Wartrike [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts]: 3. Junkboss (Speed Freeks), Da Badskull Banner, Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, Squig-hide Tyres [1 PL, 15pts], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], 3x Twin Boomstick, Warlord

Troops [2 PL, 50pts] +

Gretchin [2 PL, 50pts]: 'Orrible Gitz . . 10x Gretchin [50pts]: 10x Grot Blaster

Elites [8 PL, 140pts] +

Kommandos [4 PL, 55pts] . . Boss Nob [15pts]: Power Klaw [5pts], Slugga, Stikkbombs . . 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Tankbustas [4 PL, 85pts] . . Boss Nob [17pts]: Rokkit Launcha . . 4x Tankbusta [68pts]: 4x Rokkit Launcha

Fast Attack [15 PL, 270pts] +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [5 PL, 90pts] . . Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles

2 X Megatrakk Scrapjets [10 PL, 180pts]

Flyer [16 PL, 240pts] +

2x Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota [20pts], 4x Supa Shoota

++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [66 PL, -5CP, 1,165pts] ++

Clan kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [14 PL, -2CP, 240pts] +

Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -1CP, 145pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Beastchoppa, Beasthide Mantle, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP]
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Da Ded Shiny Shoota, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], Tellyport Blasta [10pts]

Elites [9 PL, 180pts] +

Burna Boyz [6 PL, 120pts] . . 8x Burna Boy [88pts]: 8x Burna, 8x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs
Burna Boyz [3 PL, 60pts] . . 4x Burna Boy [44pts]: 4x Burna, 4x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs

Fast Attack [43 PL, 745pts] +

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [7 PL, 115pts]: Nitro Squigs [2 PL, 25pts] . . Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]

Warbikers [8 PL, 110pts] . . Boss Nob [35pts]: 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw [10pts] . . 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa [75pts]: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun
Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun



Beat DE, SIsters, BA, Sisters, and DA


Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [84 PL, 7CP, 1,390pts] ++

+ Configuration [9CP] +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

Clan Kultur: Blood Axes

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts] +

Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Beastchoppa, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]

+ Elites [10 PL, 105pts] +

Kommandos [8 PL, 80pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 7x Kommando [70pts]: 7x Choppa, 7x Slugga, 7x Stikkbombs

Mek [2 PL, 25pts]: Choppa, I've Got A Plan, Ladz!, Kustom Mega-Slugga, Morgog's Finkin' Cap, Warlord

+ Fast Attack [48 PL, 870pts] +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [10 PL, 180pts]
. Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles
. Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

+ Heavy Support [18 PL, 270pts] +

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 135pts]
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 135pts]
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon




++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [33 PL, -4CP, 610pts] ++

+ Configuration [-3CP] +

Clan Kultur: Deathskulls

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts] +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], 3x Twin Boomstick

+ Elites [8 PL, 100pts] +

Kommandos [4 PL, 50pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Kommandos [4 PL, 50pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

+ Fast Attack [19 PL, 390pts] +

DeffKoptas [6 PL, 150pts]: Boom Boyz
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

++ Total: [117 PL, 3CP, 2,000pts] ++



Automatically Appended Next Post:
( There was also an IH list that went 6-0 beating DE twice, Admech, and DG. )



Nice
Where did you get the second list, I couldn't find it anywhere?

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Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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Damn that second list makes some...bizarre choices that I'd really love to know the rationale behind.

the triple units of mek gunz, the choice of blood axes for the first detachment...other than that its just spamming buggies which, yeah, we know theyre good, but I'm just kind of baffled by some of the otehr stuff.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
Damn that second list makes some...bizarre choices that I'd really love to know the rationale behind.

the triple units of mek gunz, the choice of blood axes for the first detachment...other than that its just spamming buggies which, yeah, we know theyre good, but I'm just kind of baffled by some of the otehr stuff.


Have to remember, nobody has had a chance yet to adjust to the new Ork codex. Most of his opponents probably didn't realize that by killing 1 model you have a 50% chance to kill another from morale and then a 33% chance to kill the last from attrition.

Failing that it might have just been target saturation. So much T5 and T6 with similar threat ratio's that its really just a matter of selecting whichever model you really need to kill first, and those KMKs arent game breaking hanging out in the back.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
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True. I guess for me it just doesnt seem like the second list has a TON of pressure pieces that as an opponent I have to kill before I do anything else and that I have access to kill. Squigboss I can't really do antyhing about since he's a character.. I guess maybe the stormboyz and kommandos but those I'd rate more as scorers, everything else is just going to continue to apply its firepower indefinitely and you can't tie up the buggies due to Blood Axes so its not like you have to prioritize those.

Facing that list, if I had any appreciable armor I'd be aiming to take 2 models off each KMK unit turn 1 and get a third one almost guaranteed. I wouldn't be taking the '50% chance for 2, 17% chance for 3' morale approach, I'd be dropping 2 from each unit and hoping my opponent is tempted to waste 2cp on an autopass so I can safely leave a lone model from any given infantry unit and my opponent can't autopass them to secure an objective.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 13:06:57


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Damn that second list makes some...bizarre choices that I'd really love to know the rationale behind.

the triple units of mek gunz, the choice of blood axes for the first detachment...other than that its just spamming buggies which, yeah, we know theyre good, but I'm just kind of baffled by some of the otehr stuff.


Have to remember, nobody has had a chance yet to adjust to the new Ork codex. Most of his opponents probably didn't realize that by killing 1 model you have a 50% chance to kill another from morale and then a 33% chance to kill the last from attrition.

Failing that it might have just been target saturation. So much T5 and T6 with similar threat ratio's that its really just a matter of selecting whichever model you really need to kill first, and those KMKs arent game breaking hanging out in the back.


Yeah, this. Orks always tend to perform vastly better when their books are new, both because they are usually operated by fairly experienced ork players (orks are not an army that you easily switch to) and most of the midfield tournament players usually train fixed play patterns over and over that are very inflexible to adapting to unexpected game situations.

At the same time, both lists seem very unrefined - there very likely is potential for them to improve as well.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Plus a swarm of vehicles coupled with cheap t5 fast moving bikers and jump infantry generate a situation where there is too many targets for some armies. killing 3-5 bikers wastes a lot of points for some armies. While at the same time objective wise, it is hard to kill enough of orks units to stop them from scoring quarters.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
Plus a swarm of vehicles coupled with cheap t5 fast moving bikers and jump infantry generate a situation where there is too many targets for some armies. killing 3-5 bikers wastes a lot of points for some armies. While at the same time objective wise, it is hard to kill enough of orks units to stop them from scoring quarters.


And that is the thing, there wasn't that much bikers or infantry in general. The heavy lifting of both lists was done by the buggies while the infantry ran around scoring objectives, safely ignored by his opponent because of those scary buggies. I'll be honest, neither list looks that intimidating, but I also have the clear advantage of understanding orkz a hell of a lot better than Joe shmoe tournament player who plays against orkz maybe twice a year.

Its a hard mindset to get yourself out of i'll readily admit, but ignoring the "scary" buggies and killing off those infantry would have basically ended the ork players hopes turn 2 or 3.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:

Nice
Where did you get the second list, I couldn't find it anywhere?


My trust old BCP login.

   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Karol wrote:
Plus a swarm of vehicles coupled with cheap t5 fast moving bikers and jump infantry generate a situation where there is too many targets for some armies. killing 3-5 bikers wastes a lot of points for some armies. While at the same time objective wise, it is hard to kill enough of orks units to stop them from scoring quarters.


bikes are ok but compared to squig riders i don't think they will be using a lot of use once people can get the squig kits (unrelesed ourtside of the limited box set where you get 3)

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Bikers are at least on par or even better cause they can shoot quite well and get the -1 to They can make an impact turn 1. They add up well to the freebootas while the squigosaurs...not so much.
However, squigosaurs are decently choppy for the price. But will you need it?..
   
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 koooaei wrote:
Bikers are at least on par or even better cause they can shoot quite well and get the -1 to They can make an impact turn 1. They add up well to the freebootas while the squigosaurs...not so much.
However, squigosaurs are decently choppy for the price. But will you need it?..


I think they compliment one another really well, but the edge in my opinion goes to the Squiggies.

Both are 25pts, both have 3 wounds, both have 4+ saves.

Ranged combat the Warbikers win hands down, the only thing Squighog boyz have is the bomb squig. A warike is M14 which means if its not Evil sunz or Bad Moonz its not in Dakkarange turn 1 (Barring the strat) So it gets 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 0.44 wounds against Marines. If you call the speedWaaagh its 8 shots, 2.6 hits, 1.77 wounds and 0.88dmg If you wait until turn 2 its 10 shots and 12 shots for 3.3 and 4 hits each which works out to 0.73 and 1.33. If you can get into CC its 3 attacks for 2 hits, 1 wound and 0.5dmg.

The Squiggy on the other hand is 1 shot each with git and spear. Each ends with 0.33 hits, the gits is 0.166wounds the spear is 0.22 git weapon ends with 0.07dmg and the spear is 0.28, of note, both are at shorter range. In CC without the waaagh its 3 attacks at S6 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.77dmg The Git gets 1 attack 0.66 hits, 0.22 wounds and 0.11dmg AND the Squiggy gets 2 attacks 1.33 hits 0.88 wounds and 0.88dmg. Works out to a total of 0.35dmg in the shooting phase and 2.76dmg in the CC phase. During a WAAAAGH the Rider gets +1 attack so 4 attacks and 2.37dmg instead of 1.77

The only time I see the Warbiker being better is if you Take Ghaz, but thats a 300pt model just to get both benefits for your Warbikers.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Though sadly you won't be able to get both sides of the waagh to work optimally due to the clunky Dakka rules. Unless you pop it second turn I guess.

On the other hand, it does give you a spread of options. Each unit can either advance and charge with exceptionally good odds. Or move full speed and try to get into full dakka range. Though normally I'll do a combo of both, possibly even using more dakka on a biker unit that really needs to kill something vulnerable.
   
Made in ru
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SemperMortis wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Bikers are at least on par or even better cause they can shoot quite well and get the -1 to They can make an impact turn 1. They add up well to the freebootas while the squigosaurs...not so much.
However, squigosaurs are decently choppy for the price. But will you need it?..


I think they compliment one another really well, but the edge in my opinion goes to the Squiggies.

Both are 25pts, both have 3 wounds, both have 4+ saves.

Ranged combat the Warbikers win hands down, the only thing Squighog boyz have is the bomb squig. A warike is M14 which means if its not Evil sunz or Bad Moonz its not in Dakkarange turn 1 (Barring the strat) So it gets 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 0.44 wounds against Marines. If you call the speedWaaagh its 8 shots, 2.6 hits, 1.77 wounds and 0.88dmg If you wait until turn 2 its 10 shots and 12 shots for 3.3 and 4 hits each which works out to 0.73 and 1.33. If you can get into CC its 3 attacks for 2 hits, 1 wound and 0.5dmg.

The Squiggy on the other hand is 1 shot each with git and spear. Each ends with 0.33 hits, the gits is 0.166wounds the spear is 0.22 git weapon ends with 0.07dmg and the spear is 0.28, of note, both are at shorter range. In CC without the waaagh its 3 attacks at S6 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.77dmg The Git gets 1 attack 0.66 hits, 0.22 wounds and 0.11dmg AND the Squiggy gets 2 attacks 1.33 hits 0.88 wounds and 0.88dmg. Works out to a total of 0.35dmg in the shooting phase and 2.76dmg in the CC phase. During a WAAAAGH the Rider gets +1 attack so 4 attacks and 2.37dmg instead of 1.77

The only time I see the Warbiker being better is if you Take Ghaz, but thats a 300pt model just to get both benefits for your Warbikers.


There are ways to get into dakka range for bikes - especially if you go 2d or if the mission starts with a 18" Deployment. Also, if you're running freebootas, which seems to be what many tourney lists will, taking into consideration how good buggies are and how underwhelming the regular waaagh builds seem to be right now, you want to max out your shooting. With bike's speed they can move behind blos turn 2 to trigger the hit bonus off the trash that your squigbuggiea couldn't finish off cause the opponent focuse fire them or something. Or you could simply enjoy the benefits of speedwaagh bikers with +1 to hit bonus allready. If you like counting vs marines, speedwaagh bikers in dakka range with +1 to hit will deal 12 s5 ap2 shots each hitting on 4s. Which is exactly 2 wounds. That is quite impressive. Sure, you might not get into dakka range but that is possible.

Squighigs do chop quite well and have some shooting spears and are a nice unit stat-wise but ATM, I think bikers have an edge simply because of the rest of the list building around buggies and speedwaagh to support them. Whereas running old waaagh is only an option with ghaz. I'm not sure it's the best option cause he's too pricey. And withour move + charge and extra attack from regular waaagh, squighigs will more often do less than bikers that will, at very least, still put up 8 shots each.

Oh, also, bikers can also upgrade a nob, which some people want to do - for that d2 to get an edge vs scoring d2 units or to finish off something with multi-wounds.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/13 05:32:24


 
   
 
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