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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spoletta wrote:
This isn't the first time that the GT mission pack introduced changes to the detachments.

CA2021 made some changes to the Super heavy auxiliary detachments.

Are you using those in your crusade games?


I actually don't own any superheavy models yet, so I haven't been impacted.

I remember vaguely the changes- if I recall correctly, the changes were generally seen as improvements that made the detachments easier to use. I had forgotten they came via GT Mission pack. And there you have it- if THOSE changes were regarded as impacting the game and not merely matched play RAW, these rules will be too.
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

I lack those analytics skills, but a read through the latest Goonhammer recap of top lists for the week's events shows that lists with two sub-factions feature quite a bit (Grey Knights, TSons, Sisters). It would seem that the designers don't want this and are going to take steps. For quite some time the various Space Marines have had to be mono-subfaction to gain Chapter Tactics etc, so this move makes sense.

Make a decision with your list and accept the opportunity cost of picking the sub-faction that appeals to you.

Playing a narrative campaign with like-minded friends? Do what you want! Going to a tourney? Mono sub-faction it is. Seems like a good move to me.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Having lost track of things myself, what rules changed in the GT mission pack?

Is that the source of the "Superheavy auxiliary doesn't get faction traits"
Or
"Superheavy aux dets cost only 1 cp when same faction as WL"?

Or both?
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Having lost track of things myself, what rules changed in the GT mission pack?

Is that the source of the "Superheavy auxiliary doesn't get faction traits"
Or
"Superheavy aux dets cost only 1 cp when same faction as WL"?

Or both?

GT pack added the "shared faction bonus". The "SHAD doesn't get faction traits" rule is from the BRB.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Having lost track of things myself, what rules changed in the GT mission pack?

Is that the source of the "Superheavy auxiliary doesn't get faction traits"
Or
"Superheavy aux dets cost only 1 cp when same faction as WL"?

Or both?

GT pack added the "shared faction bonus". The "SHAD doesn't get faction traits" rule is from the BRB.


Thanks, sorry, was having the dumb
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Having lost track of things myself, what rules changed in the GT mission pack?

Is that the source of the "Superheavy auxiliary doesn't get faction traits"
Or
"Superheavy aux dets cost only 1 cp when same faction as WL"?

Or both?

GT pack added the "shared faction bonus". The "SHAD doesn't get faction traits" rule is from the BRB.


Thanks, sorry, was having the dumb

No problem. Completely understandable considering the sheer amount of rules sources currently.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Yep, the only real way to find rules these days is using a searchable database with all the rules in it, which is sadly not provided by GW.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




I wonder if they're going to include the detachment rules in the latest iteration of the GT pack. That's an annoying thing to leave out, and probably a big part of the reason people overlook the 'no detachment abilities' thing.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Jidmah wrote:
Yep, the only real way to find rules these days is using a searchable database with all the rules in it, which is sadly not provided by GW.


Imagine if warhammer+ had something as convenient as wahapedia in it lmao.
The fact that even big streamers openly use wahapedia instead of figuring out where their rules are is golden
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Most of my group would not be playing without Wahapedia TBH.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Galas wrote:
Most of my group would not be playing without Wahapedia TBH.


People at my LGS used to but after constant "Thats not the rules anymore, check on wahapedia to see the updated one" i converted most of them.
Without Waha and Battlescribe, i would not be playing 40k
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





At this point I'm quite sure that GW lets them be because they are more useful than harmful.
Players have this need of an hard copy of the rules to feel legit in using them, then just scrap them and use those 2 sources.

No profit lost for GW with all the advantages to customer satisfaction.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Spoletta wrote:
At this point I'm quite sure that GW lets them be because they are more useful than harmful.
Players have this need of an hard copy of the rules to feel legit in using them, then just scrap them and use those 2 sources.

No profit lost for GW with all the advantages to customer satisfaction.


Idk, but i know most in-store players at my LGS just stopped purchasing codexes in favor of waha. And the store has a single GT pack for the missions that everyone can use
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Without Waha and Battlescribe, i would not be playing 40k

How legal are these sites?

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 wuestenfux wrote:
Without Waha and Battlescribe, i would not be playing 40k

How legal are these sites?


Wahapedia is clearly not legal (but its russian so good luck enforcing it),
Battlescribe itself is legal but the community putting GW's stuff in it most probably isnt

Either way, i don't care, they're convenient and IMO a necessity. Every wargame should have at the very least a free online list builder. Ideally rules in an up to date PDF too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/17 16:23:41


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 wuestenfux wrote:
How legal are these sites?


I'm pretty sure both would be shut for copyright infringement if GW really tried.
It would likely be more difficult to go after the general public.

But I'm not a lawyer etc.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Wahapedia needs black-hatting off the net.

The core Battlescribe engine, as it is just providing a mechanism to build an army list without having the mechanics for specific games built in, is fine. It also doesn't seem to have been updated for over 2 years at this point.

The community-generated data files for specific games may breach IP law - I'm not an IP lawyer, so I'm not going to make a definitive claim - but I'd argue are either immoral or unethical, especially if you're using material for which you have not paid the creator of the game for.

As an example, if I were to use it to build a Dark Eldar list, that would be bad, as I don't own the Dark Eldar book. If I were to build a Death Guard or Space Marine list, I'm probably OK, as I've got the current books for those factions.

Fair use is a tricky beast at the best of times, though, so I'd say it's generally safer to avoid use cases which rely on it.

And streamers/YouTubers who are promoting either of the above really shouldn't be getting promo material from GW, given their examples are encouraging people not to buy stuff from GW.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Dysartes wrote:
Wahapedia needs black-hatting off the net.


No, it needs to be promoted by GW if anything

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/17 16:40:06


 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 VladimirHerzog wrote:
No, it needs to be promoted by GW if anything

Considering its piracy, gonna press X to doubt.
Also, fun fact about Dakka, there is a rule directly prohibiting the promotion of piracy.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Without promoting piracy its reasonable to say GW would almost certainly be served by facilitating easy access to the rules.

A system where the rules are spread over dozens of publications - and FAQs - isn't overly convenient for anyone and it is a potential barrier to people playing the game.

Admittedly there may be cost implications of giving the rules away for free, as the number of people buying codexes, chapter approveds, grand tournament packs etc etc would likely decline significantly. But then its possible people would use the money they would have spent on such to buy more plastic for their respective piles of shame.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Without Waha and Battlescribe, i would not be playing 40k

How legal are these sites?


Wahapedia is clearly not legal (but its russian so good luck enforcing it),


Waha isn't literally a book scan, so it falls under "fair use but GW has money so they can make you bleed anyway so it's not worth it."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/17 17:28:14


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Gert wrote:
Also, fun fact about Dakka, there is a rule directly prohibiting the promotion of piracy.

They claim there is, but I can't recall the last time I actually saw the mods do anything about it, unfortunately.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Most folk will not concern themselves with legality, what is convenience is always more important. HOWEVER, if the company can offer a service that is both legal and convenient, people will flock to it.
We've seen this before with Napster and itunes. If GW could get their arse in gear and make the 40k app as good as Waha, it'll quickly overtake it in popularity. Even if a fee is attached (as long as its reasonable)
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 Fergie0044 wrote:
Even if a fee is attached (as long as its reasonable)


Its GW. They will tie their army builder to physical £/€/$50 books for as long as possible so it will never be reasonable.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Agreed. Wahapedia is money lost for GW only in that I would pay a subscription fee to GW for what Wahapedia provides for 2 reasons:

1) It's less questionably legal
2) It's in lieu of codexes, so a break even but increased convenience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/17 18:02:26


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






honestly, GW should straight up copy how wahapedia works, its probably the most convenient way to filter their mess of releases. Being able to go on a unit's datasheet and see right there what all the possible stratagems that you can use on them is huge. Hovering on Keywords to see what unit has them while reading Abilities is also huge, its all so convenient.

So obviously GW won't ever implement something like that
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




If they would at least upgrade Sisters(with a Codex by GW blatantly written in a way to encourage mixed subfactions) for example in a notable way, instead of nerfing them even further with completely laughable point drops in exchange(it will still pretty much nobody play Paragons and absolutely nobody will play the tanks competetively, cause they are still all pretty much just overcosted garbage from a competetive viewpoint).

But no, Sisters aren't even an actual Top Tier army anymore and are one of the factions that get hit the hardest by this and GW is apparently yet again too incompetent to make up for that in any way let alone to use a reasonable and cautious approach with such a huge rules change. And Sisters are really just one of the most notable examples.

Spoletta wrote:
Reminder to everyone that these changes come together with a point rebalance, so talking these in relation to the current meta is completely useless.

Orks for example are seeing extensive nerfs to their main build.

The leaked point changes straight up make it even worse for Sisters, and i'm not even sure what insane point changes it needs to finally get Drukhari under control if they get somewhat excluded from the rule.

 alextroy wrote:
I think you are 100% wrong on your analysis here. I sincerely doubt GW designed any of it's armies with the idea that the player should divide up their armies into small subfactions pieces to maximize the effectiveness of every unit by giving them the best subfaction. Rather, they designed for the subfaction rules to make the the same armies play with a different flavor that favors certain styles of play.

That's theoretically possible, but would practically mean GW are so incredibly incompetent that they somehow didn't realize that pretty much everything about the Sisters Codex screams: MIX SUBFACTIONS.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2022/01/18 00:26:16


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I think Alex is right: GW did not design the sub-factions to be mixed. They designed them to make individual armies play differently to one another.

Of course, GW play a very different 40k to the rest of us, so is it any wonder they didn't realise how what they wrote actually worked?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think Alex is right: GW did not design the sub-factions to be mixed. They designed them to make individual armies play differently to one another.

Of course, GW play a very different 40k to the rest of us, so is it any wonder they didn't realise how what they wrote actually worked?

I mean just read the Sister Codex, you don't even need to play Sisters or have much experience to see the obvious(it could be barely any less subtle, hell and even beyond that specific Codex Sisters are neither as cheap as Guard nor as Elite as Marines therefore it's pretty much part of their core design to need highly effective specialized units to begin with). But the sad part is, i wouldn't even be too surprised if GW really would be that incompetent(there was just this little hope that they've gained at least some minor competence in recent years).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/18 00:48:40


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Maybe their intent was that certain Orders would be better suited to a specific play-style, and that your army would consist of the units that fit that playstyle, and not that people would just take everything, and split them off into the Orders that fit the unit types being chosen.

But then maybe if the FOC actually meant something and you couldn't just add more detachments to take as much of anything you want then this wouldn't really be a problem in the first place...

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/01/18 01:03:01


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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