Grey Knights are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

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**daedalus**

ShumaGorath wrote:
daedalus wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Two purifier squads!

They're shoota boyz. If you're getting into assault with purifiers, than you've done something wrong.

10 purifiers shooting into 30 boyz

Assuming the boyz are out of cover, you have 4 storm bolter wounds, and 4.4 psycannon wounds (because the purifiers had to move).

21 boyz return fire. 2.4 unsaved wounds.

So, 26% of a boyz squad dies first turn of shooting, while 24% of the purifiers squad dies. Looks (slighly) bad for the orks, except for the fact that they SHOULD be in cover, and there are 3 squads of boyz as opposed to only two squads of purifiers, not to mention a nob who can absorb a wound and a warboss who can absorb a couple.

I think the orks would win a shooting war, or at least give a good stand.

We already covered this.

Oh, I saw after the fact. I was busy checking my math and got ninja'd.

**ShumaGorath**

pretre wrote:
targetawg wrote:
pretre wrote:Hey guys, can we get back to OP GK's. Take this to the whole 'this squad can beat that squad thread'.

I loathe that thread. Don't send me there.

So now you understand why I don't want it to happen here.

It's been happening here for 50 pages and you've contributed to that significantly.

**Khorne's Herald**

Well they are the Inquisition's lap-dogs, what would you expect.

**pretre**

Khorne's Herald wrote:Well they are the Inquisition's lap-dogs, what would you expect.

So you're saying that the GK are OP because of their association with the Inquisition (fluff considerations) and nothing to do with their actual codex?

**Janthkin**

**Khorne's Herald**

pretre wrote:
Khorne's Herald wrote:Well they are the Inquisition's lap-dogs, what would you expect.

So you're saying that the GK are OP because of their association with the Inquisition (fluff considerations) and nothing to do with their actual codex?

I don't think that they're that overpowered, but I do think they could have toned it down a little bit with the wargear options. I didn't try to sound mean or anything, I was just joking. But if you think about it, the Grey Knights main purpose is to wipe out deamons of various sorts. So it makes since that the Inquisition would give them stronger wargear.

**pretre**

Khorne's Herald wrote:But if you think about it, the Grey Knights main purpose is to wipe out deamons of various sorts. So it makes since that the Inquisition would give them stronger wargear.

See the problem with this particular line of reasoning is that is supposes that Daemons are the greatest threat to the Imperium (as seen by the Inquisition). It is also important to note that Daemons are not the only concern that the Inqusition has (and probably not even the greatest), just the one that GKs are the best at fighting.

Keeping in mind that the Inquisition is not made up of one opinion on the matter and that the Inquisition did not originally create the GKs, it gets a little hard to support that particular approach.

The GK are well equipped because of their history. It just so happens that that history intertwines with that of the Inquisition.

**Khorne's Herald**

Thanks for clarifying!

**Kingsley**

pretre wrote:It is also important to note that Daemons are not the only concern that the Inqusition has (and probably not even the greatest), just the one that GKs are the best at fighting.

Random crazy fluff note-- the GKs actually aren't the Imperium's best forces against Dæmons! The best force against Dæmons is the Exorcists Chapter, who are all possessed by Dæmons and then freed as part of their training and become completely invisible to Dæmons as a result. Note that the Exorcists may or may not be a Successor Chapter of the Grey Knights.

**ph34r**

That is actually not totally determined, the Excorcists achieved a kill ratio of 97 to 1 by being invisible to the daemons they were fighting, but Grey Knights might well have a kill ratio of even greater.

**Draigo**

One thing I think is kinda funny is the gk before the new dex were fairly good at killing most other codexes stuff in assault. They just didnt have enough to quite be a stand alone. Using them before as allies they got a lt of raised eye brows because how good they were at shredding stuff.

**Sasa0mg**

I just think its one in a line of new generation dex's that people will just have to bare with until there codex in turn is updated. Necrons are strong, DE are strong, GK are strong. doesn't anyone seem to think its just following the trend of newly released dex's vs old ones?

Sure it will upset the meta more then perhaps previous edition dex releases but I think its just a matter of dealing with it (preferably quietly) until all are updated.

**gendoikari87**

well here's a good way to determin, mathematically if they are OP or no. Take the percent of of players playing GK, and the percent of tournament wins. If the Percent of tournament wins is higher it can be called in part OP if it is WAY higher it is way OP. Does anyone have this data?

**Sasa0mg**

I don't think the percent of player using GK is a great stratergy, being able to field a 13man 2000pt army makes them a low-budget choice for people that want to compete. It might not be because they are good per-say but that they are affordable.

Just offering that in there.

**pretre**

gendoikari87 wrote:well here's a good way to determin, mathematically if they are OP or no. Take the percent of of players playing GK, and the percent of tournament wins. If the Percent of tournament wins is higher it can be called in part OP if it is WAY higher it is way OP. Does anyone have this data?

We've done the competitive data thing already. GK are number 2 in the US right now behind orks and number one in UK. Australia is just crazy.

http://rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?GameSystemId=3&RegionId=13
Click Army Rankings

Top 5 Armies by Country:
US: Orks, GK, SW, BA, IG
UK: GK, BA, IG, SW, DE
Aus: GK, DE, Eldar, CSM, DA

**Dok**

If the percentage of tournament wins is greater then the number of people playing GK, then I will accept that they are OP. No army should win more times then they have been played. That's ludicrous.

**Draigo**

pretre wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:well here's a good way to determin, mathematically if they are OP or no. Take the percent of of players playing GK, and the percent of tournament wins. If the Percent of tournament wins is higher it can be called in part OP if it is WAY higher it is way OP. Does anyone have this data?

We've done the competitive data thing already. GK are number 2 in the US right now behind orks and number one in UK. Australia is just crazy.

http://rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?GameSystemId=3&RegionId=13
Click Army Rankings

Top 5 Armies by Country:
US: Orks, GK, SW, BA, IG
UK: GK, BA, IG, SW, DE
Aus: GK, DE, Eldar, CSM, DA

Thats pretty interesting consider newcrons have won quite a few 1st's but not in the top 5.

**Monster Rain**

I thought Orks were terrible.

I read it on the internet.

**Dok**

Draigo wrote:

Thats pretty interesting consider newcrons have won quite a few 1st's but not in the top 5.

Really? I thought they had been kind of missing from the tournament scene. I know there haven't been any locally.

**Draigo**

Dok wrote:
Draigo wrote:

Thats pretty interesting consider newcrons have won quite a few 1st's but not in the top 5.

Really? I thought they had been kind of missing from the tournament scene. I know there haven't been any locally.

It was on HQ rankings. I'll see if I can find a few real quick and I can pm them.
Here is ben who had a 2nd place.
http://www.rankingshq.com/public/playerprofile.aspx?PlayerId=7484

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heres another 2nd.. Hhhmm I shoulda copy paste those 1sts.http://www.rankingshq.com/public/playerprofile.aspx?PlayerId=927

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heres a first.
http://www.rankingshq.com/public/playerprofile.aspx?PlayerId=4378

**Vasarto**

having the ability to shoot 36' str 10 ap 1 large blasts form a chimera as a psychic power? Having the ability to have 3 of them or more in an army for a super low cost?

OP'ed codex!

I should had waited for GK instead of pushing all my money into SW.

**gendoikari87**

Dok wrote:If the percentage of tournament wins is greater then the number of people playing GK, then I will accept that they are OP. No army should win more times then they have been played. That's ludicrous.

Percent of people playing, not number of people. Think of it like this.

If there are 75% of the players playing Grey knights and grey knights win 65% of the tournaments, then they are under powered respective to the field. If they win 85% of tournaments then they are over powered to the field.

GK are number 2 in the US right now

In what? wins or players.

**Mannahnin**

ShumaGorath wrote:
pretre wrote:
Cladmir wrote:I thought the general consensus was that because Ward did not authored the DE codex, the DE army is a wonderfully balanced army with many viable builds and options and not filled with cheap power builds.

There is so much 'awesome' in this sentence that it cannot go uncommented on.

The DE Codex is pretty solid though.

Which is why you see courts, those bird dues, mandrakes, incubi, talos', chronos', grotesques, and harlequins so very often.

It's a solid book with a lot of good units. The reasons why you mostly see the same units over and over have more to do with convenience, cost, and quick learning curve to use. The scariest players I've faced using DE in the last year are Ben Mohlie and Sean Nayden. Ben's list featued the court. Sean's tournament list includes Incubi, Talos, and Harlequins. There's a good player named Hans here in the Northeast who regularly runs Grotesques.

**ShumaGorath**

Mannahnin wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
pretre wrote:
Cladmir wrote:I thought the general consensus was that because Ward did not authored the DE codex, the DE army is a wonderfully balanced army with many viable builds and options and not filled with cheap power builds.

There is so much 'awesome' in this sentence that it cannot go uncommented on.

The DE Codex is pretty solid though.

Which is why you see courts, those bird dues, mandrakes, incubi, talos', chronos', grotesques, and harlequins so very often.

It's a solid book with a lot of good units. The reasons why you mostly see the same units over and over have more to do with convenience, cost, and quick learning curve to use. The scariest players I've faced using DE in the last year are Ben Mohlie and Sean Nayden. Ben's list featued the court. Sean's tournament list includes Incubi, Talos, and Harlequins. There's a good player named Hans here in the Northeast who regularly runs Grotesques.

I'll trust you on it. Those units are very under represented in my local area and typically aren't topics of conversation online. I don't attend high end tournaments very often though, so the best players probably unlock the secret karate of those units.

**Draigo**

Kinda funny in the last tourney I was at the 2 de players had very unorthodox lists and both placed well.

One had a Vect ds, beast masters and lances. The other ran a grot wall with Urien. I talked to one of the sw guys who ran razorback/longfang spam and the vect list really shocked him.

He didnt expect elves to come in and rock him. He was under the impression everyone played venom spam etc.

**ph34r**

A guy deep struck Vect?

Dark Eldar can grot wall?

Forgive me if I am a bit confused.

**pretre**

Grotesque wall. Vect dais.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and a very successful DE player here uses incubi, court and scourges in different lists. All three in one list at 'AB semis.

**Draigo**

ph34r wrote:A guy deep struck Vect?

Dark Eldar can grot wall?

Forgive me if I am a bit confused.

Vect deathstar sorry. It was him blood brides in Vect's speacial boat that spear headed forward. I can't remember if he had a sucubus in their too or not but I do remember Vect with blood brides. DE can field a wall of grotesques out of raiders or web way with urien and smash face if they get a charge. The aberration with scissor hands gets quite a few attacks at str 7 which works really well vs light armor stuff or squads after a lance pops it open. I think its similar to the beast master stuff people have been trying.

**Tomb King**

pretre wrote:Grotesque wall. Vect dais.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and a very successful DE player here uses incubi, court and scourges in different lists. All three in one list at 'AB semis.

I love running vect he is a great force multiplier. I only throw incubi in if I have the points and I am running an assault army. I love haywire scourges. I run them any and every chance I can spare the points. 24" range 2-5 glace 6 pen weapon on any armor value? Im in!

**OverwatchCNC**

Monster Rain wrote:
daedalus wrote:. Even then, I'm not sure what this proves.

That we all have far too much free time on our hands?

This thread sort of proves that all on it's own right?

pretre wrote:Yeah, below 1500 is just a crap shoot. We really shouldn't discuss it.

We definitely should not discuss any points levels where GK are not the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade. The internetz, or at a minimum Dakka, would explode.

Dok wrote:If the percentage of tournament wins is greater then the number of people playing GK, then I will accept that they are OP. No army should win more times then they have been played. That's ludicrous.

The tournament evidence that has been presented does not prove anything about GK being the most OP book GW has put out in a decade. There is not a substantial back log of data from the last decade to conclusively prove which book in the last decade is the most OP.

I would like to reiterate my original post from WAY before this thread exploded into the unknown. Fantasy Daemons broke an entire game system, GK have not. Therefore the title is false.