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Are Grey Knights the most overpowered book GW put out in the last decade?
Yes, GK are the most OP book in the last decade.
No, but they are overpowered.
No, they are just a good 5th ed book.
No, they are just average.
No. Just no.
Make this thread die.
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Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Cladmir wrote:
odorofdeath wrote:Honestly the more I peek, the more overwhelmed I get. So many options, nearly all of them viable. It makes a Chaos and Tyranid player weep.


Are you talking about GK or SW or DE?


Or SM, or IG, or BA, or Necrons...
   
Made in fi
Bounding Assault Marine





I don't know if this will change anyones mind but here's a small 750pts army list comparison. Decent SM list for small games.

HQ
Captain - Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Power Armour

Elites
Dreadnought - 2x Twin-Linked Autocannon
Dreadnought - 2x Twin-Linked Autocannon

Troops
Tactical Squad - Plasma Gun, 4x Space Marine, Space Marine Sergeant - Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
-Razorback - Twin-Linked Assault Cannon
Tactical Squad - Plasma Gun, 4x Space Marine, Space Marine Sergeant - Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
-Razorback - Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

And common GK variant at this pts level:

HQ
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor - Frag, Krak and Psyk-out Grenades, Power Armour, Incinirator

Troops
Grey Knight Strike Squad - Hammerhand, Psycannon, 3x Storm Bolter, Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Nemesis Force Sword, Warp Quake
-Justicar - Nemesis Force Daemonhammer, Storm Bolter
-Razorback - Dozer Blade, Fortitude, Psybolt Ammunition, Twin Linked Assault Cannon
Grey Knight Strike Squad - Hammerhand, Psycannon, 3x Storm Bolter, Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Nemesis Force Sword, Warp Quake
-Justicar - Nemesis Force Daemonhammer, Storm Bolter
-Razorback - Dozer Blade, Fortitude, Psybolt Ammunition, Twin Linked Assault Cannon

Heavy Support
Dreadnought - Fortitude, Psybolt Ammunition, 2x Twin Linked Autocannon
Dreadnought - Fortitude, Psybolt Ammunition, 2x Twin Linked Autocannon

Not sure if this is full 750pts, but I'm sure everyone can see my point. And that's all I have to say about this topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/17 18:08:33


Space Marines 6700pts Tyranids 5000pts Tau 2350pts Blood Angels 2850pts Orcs & Goblins 1350pts
 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Falls Church, VA

Thunder555 wrote:I don't know if this will change anyones mind but here's a small 750pts army list comparison. Decent SM list for small games.

HQ
Captain - Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Power Armour

Elites
Dreadnought - 2x Twin-Linked Autocannon
Dreadnought - 2x Twin-Linked Autocannon

Troops
Tactical Squad - Plasma Gun, 4x Space Marine, Space Marine Sergeant - Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
-Razorback - Twin-Linked Assault Cannon
Tactical Squad - Plasma Gun, 4x Space Marine, Space Marine Sergeant - Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
-Razorback - Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

And common GK variant at this pts level:

HQ
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor - Frag, Krak and Psyk-out Grenades, Power Armour, Incinirator

Troops
Grey Knight Strike Squad - Hammerhand, Psycannon, 3x Storm Bolter, Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Nemesis Force Sword, Warp Quake
-Justicar - Nemesis Force Daemonhammer, Storm Bolter
-Razorback - Dozer Blade, Fortitude, Psybolt Ammunition, Twin Linked Assault Cannon
Grey Knight Strike Squad - Hammerhand, Psycannon, 3x Storm Bolter, Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Nemesis Force Sword, Warp Quake
-Justicar - Nemesis Force Daemonhammer, Storm Bolter
-Razorback - Dozer Blade, Fortitude, Psybolt Ammunition, Twin Linked Assault Cannon

Heavy Support
Dreadnought - Fortitude, Psybolt Ammunition, 2x Twin Linked Autocannon
Dreadnought - Fortitude, Psybolt Ammunition, 2x Twin Linked Autocannon

Not sure if this is full 750pts, but I'm sure everyone can see my point. And that's all I have to say about this topic.


Is your point "Look, the Vanilla SM book can't build a GK-List as well as the GK book!"

1) 750 points isn't a format played in event, none that I can think of
2) You clearly built a GK's list, who's choices are based around the fact that GK's get certain things at a cheaper price/have access to different upgrades, and then just built a SM list the exact same way, even though it wouldn't have access to those upgrades.

Strawmans are bad, mkay?
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




ShumaGorath wrote:
Cladmir wrote:
odorofdeath wrote:Honestly the more I peek, the more overwhelmed I get. So many options, nearly all of them viable. It makes a Chaos and Tyranid player weep.


Are you talking about GK or SW or DE?


How did DE get in there?


Periodically there seems to be a new thread that goes like, "Tyranids need help against DE!!!".

Mass poison shot + mass lance ---> sad tyranids seems to be major point.

And the lack of sufficient AT to take down the sail boats

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/17 18:46:31


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Why would you take a Captain instead of a Librarian at that points value?

And no melta guns?

Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Falls Church, VA

Monster Rain wrote:Why would you take a Captain instead of a Librarian at that points value?

And no melta guns?


Indeed, he built a medicore GK's list at a specifically unusual points level, then mirrored it with a SM list as a "see, GK are op!"

The SM list is intentionally bad. If you were doing a real one, you'd not try and build around multiple options that are really only decent in the GK book due to psybolts (razorbacks with a-cannons, dakka dreads, looking at you), and you'd instead capitalize on the things the SM have and GK don't.
   
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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Cladmir wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Cladmir wrote:
odorofdeath wrote:Honestly the more I peek, the more overwhelmed I get. So many options, nearly all of them viable. It makes a Chaos and Tyranid player weep.


Are you talking about GK or SW or DE?


How did DE get in there?


Periodically there seems to be a new thread that goes like, "Tyranids need help against DE!!!".

Mass poison shot + mass lance ---> sad tyranids seems to be major point.

And the lack of sufficient AT to take down the sail boats


Yes, but he was commenting about numerous viable options. Not inherent odds in matchups between armies.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




ShumaGorath wrote:
Cladmir wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Cladmir wrote:
odorofdeath wrote:Honestly the more I peek, the more overwhelmed I get. So many options, nearly all of them viable. It makes a Chaos and Tyranid player weep.


Are you talking about GK or SW or DE?


How did DE get in there?


Periodically there seems to be a new thread that goes like, "Tyranids need help against DE!!!".

Mass poison shot + mass lance ---> sad tyranids seems to be major point.

And the lack of sufficient AT to take down the sail boats


Yes, but he was commenting about numerous viable options. Not inherent odds in matchups between armies.


I thought the general consensus was that because Ward did not authored the DE codex, the DE army is a wonderfully balanced army with many viable builds and options and not filled with cheap power builds.

And yes, I did misunderstand his comment at first... my bad!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/17 19:29:22


 
   
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Camas, WA

Cladmir wrote:I thought the general consensus was that because Ward did not authored the DE codex, the DE army is a wonderfully balanced army with many viable builds and options and not filled with cheap power builds.

There is so much 'awesome' in this sentence that it cannot go uncommented on.

The DE Codex is pretty solid though.

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Probably work

Thunder555 wrote:I don't know if this will change anyones mind but here's a small 750pts army list comparison. Decent SM list for small games.

-snip-

Not sure if this is full 750pts, but I'm sure everyone can see my point. And that's all I have to say about this topic.


Your SM list seemed terrible, and I'm underwhelmed by your GK list. Why did you pick 750 points? Many armies are under/over/whatever-powered at such a tiny point value. Come back with a serious Vulkan list and a solid GK list at, like, 1500 points. Even then, I'm not sure what this proves.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
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Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

daedalus wrote:. Even then, I'm not sure what this proves.


That we all have far too much free time on our hands?

Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
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!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

pretre wrote:
Cladmir wrote:I thought the general consensus was that because Ward did not authored the DE codex, the DE army is a wonderfully balanced army with many viable builds and options and not filled with cheap power builds.

There is so much 'awesome' in this sentence that it cannot go uncommented on.

The DE Codex is pretty solid though.


Which is why you see courts, those bird dues, mandrakes, incubi, talos', chronos', grotesques, and harlequins so very often.

----------------

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This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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Probably work

Monster Rain wrote:
daedalus wrote:. Even then, I'm not sure what this proves.


That we all have far too much free time on our hands?


Oooh, yeah. That one. :(

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
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Los Angeles, CA

Even with minor changes, and besides the fact that the SM list is illegal from C:SM, this SM list is a much better TAC. And would be exceptionally better against that GK list.

Librarian 100 w/powers to taste

Tac squad with combi-melta, melta, plasma cannon, Rhino 225
Tac squad with combi-melta Razorback w/Las/plas 175

2x rifleman Dread 250




Automatically Appended Next Post:
750 points is the most OP point range this thread has produced in a decade.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/17 20:11:51



http://www.3forint.com/ Back in Action! 
   
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Falls Church, VA

Dok wrote:Even with minor changes, and besides the fact that the SM list is illegal from C:SM, this SM list is a much better TAC. And would be exceptionally better against that GK list.

Librarian 100 w/powers to taste

Tac squad with combi-melta, melta, plasma cannon, Rhino 225
Tac squad with combi-melta Razorback w/Las/plas 175

2x rifleman Dread 250



Don't worry, that GK list was technically illegal as well (Ordo Herectus inquisitors can't take incinerators, it would have to be an Ordo Xenos)
   
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Los Angeles, CA

Good call.


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Camas, WA

Dok wrote:750 points is the most OP point range this thread has produced in a decade.

What's worse is that at point level, SoB are super OP.
Celestine - 115
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
Dominion w/2 Flamer, 1 Combi, Rhino- 125
Exo - 135

Oh wait, that's just Celestine.

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Celestine would be incredibly obnoxious in a game of 1k. lol 5-6 attacks, good movement, that always gets up, etc. :/

The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.


 
   
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Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Mephiston can be quite a handful at these lower point values as well.

750 Points:

Mephiston
1 Sanguinary Priest
...

Whatever else you feel like. It doesn't really matter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/17 20:19:26


Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
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Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Yeah, below 1500 is just a crap shoot. We really shouldn't discuss it.


Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
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Falls Church, VA

pretre wrote:
Dok wrote:750 points is the most OP point range this thread has produced in a decade.

What's worse is that at point level, SoB are super OP.
Celestine - 115
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
Dominion w/2 Flamer, 1 Combi, Rhino- 125
Exo - 135

Oh wait, that's just Celestine.


Orks are even worse, you can fit roughly mek + 3x30 shoots boyz with PK nobs in 750

Find me many 750 point armies that can deal with 90 models..
   
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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

targetawg wrote:
pretre wrote:
Dok wrote:750 points is the most OP point range this thread has produced in a decade.

What's worse is that at point level, SoB are super OP.
Celestine - 115
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
Dominion w/2 Flamer, 1 Combi, Rhino- 125
Exo - 135

Oh wait, that's just Celestine.


Orks are even worse, you can fit roughly mek + 3x30 shoots boyz with PK nobs in 750

Find me many 750 point armies that can deal with 90 models..


Two purifier squads!

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

targetawg wrote:Find me many 750 point armies that can deal with 90 models..


I nearly tabled a Warboss and as many boyz as would fit in a 500 point game a couple of weeks ago.

Tesla Destructor is a hell of a gun.

Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in us
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Chico, CA

ShumaGorath wrote:
targetawg wrote:
pretre wrote:
Dok wrote:750 points is the most OP point range this thread has produced in a decade.

What's worse is that at point level, SoB are super OP.
Celestine - 115
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
Dominion w/2 Flamer, 1 Combi, Rhino- 125
Exo - 135

Oh wait, that's just Celestine.


Orks are even worse, you can fit roughly mek + 3x30 shoots boyz with PK nobs in 750

Find me many 750 point armies that can deal with 90 models..


Two purifier squads!


No in that case 1 Purifier squads dies to 180 shots, then 1 Ork boyz squad go down in assault. The other 2 Ork Boyz squad shot the other Purifer squad to hell with 120 shots. AV has a better chance at that point level.

Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.  
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Hey guys, can we get back to OP GK's. Take this to the whole 'this squad can beat that squad thread'.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
Made in us
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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Noir wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
targetawg wrote:
pretre wrote:
Dok wrote:750 points is the most OP point range this thread has produced in a decade.

What's worse is that at point level, SoB are super OP.
Celestine - 115
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
BSS in Rhino, 2 Melta - 180
Dominion w/2 Flamer, 1 Combi, Rhino- 125
Exo - 135

Oh wait, that's just Celestine.


Orks are even worse, you can fit roughly mek + 3x30 shoots boyz with PK nobs in 750

Find me many 750 point armies that can deal with 90 models..


Two purifier squads!


No in that case 1 Purifier squads dies to 180 shots, then 1 Ork boyz squad go down in assault. The other 2 Ork Boyz squad shot the other Purifer squad to hell with 120 shots. AV has a better chance at that point level.


You're right, I had assumed slugga boyz for some reason.

----------------

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This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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Probably work

ShumaGorath wrote:
Two purifier squads!


They're shoota boyz. If you're getting into assault with purifiers, than you've done something wrong.

10 purifiers shooting into 30 boyz

Assuming the boyz are out of cover, you have 4 storm bolter wounds, and 4.4 psycannon wounds (because the purifiers had to move).

21 boyz return fire. 2.4 unsaved wounds.

So, 26% of a boyz squad dies first turn of shooting, while 24% of the purifiers squad dies. Looks (slighly) bad for the orks, except for the fact that they SHOULD be in cover, and there are 3 squads of boyz as opposed to only two squads of purifiers, not to mention a nob who can absorb a wound and a warboss who can absorb a couple.

I think the orks would win a shooting war, or at least give a good stand.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
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Falls Church, VA

pretre wrote:Hey guys, can we get back to OP GK's. Take this to the whole 'this squad can beat that squad thread'.


I loathe that thread. Don't send me there.
   
Made in us
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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

daedalus wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Two purifier squads!


They're shoota boyz. If you're getting into assault with purifiers, than you've done something wrong.

10 purifiers shooting into 30 boyz

Assuming the boyz are out of cover, you have 4 storm bolter wounds, and 4.4 psycannon wounds (because the purifiers had to move).

21 boyz return fire. 2.4 unsaved wounds.

So, 26% of a boyz squad dies first turn of shooting, while 24% of the purifiers squad dies. Looks (slighly) bad for the orks, except for the fact that they SHOULD be in cover, and there are 3 squads of boyz as opposed to only two squads of purifiers, not to mention a nob who can absorb a wound and a warboss who can absorb a couple.

I think the orks would win a shooting war, or at least give a good stand.


We already covered this.

----------------

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Camas, WA

targetawg wrote:
pretre wrote:Hey guys, can we get back to OP GK's. Take this to the whole 'this squad can beat that squad thread'.


I loathe that thread. Don't send me there.

So now you understand why I don't want it to happen here.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
 
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