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gorgon wrote: Guys like Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees, etc. have more improvisation and playground in their games and have done okay too. Different ways to skin the cat.
I wonder, and this really is just absent minded musing here, can anyone recall how Aaron Rodgers was, pre-Green Bay? I mean, was he "good" with improv QBing in college? Or did he sort of "learn" the improv game from Favre for the couple years he sat behind the Gunslinger?
I'm in no way an expert but I seem to remember Rodgers being a "mobile" qb coming out of college. So he probably had at least mostly good improvisational instincts. Sitting behind faves probably just set those off. It really is quite remarkable what sitting for 3 season did for Rodgers.
Chancetragedy wrote: It really is quite remarkable what sitting for 3 season did for Rodgers.
Agreed. I remember when the GB front office basically released Favre into the wild, much of the fans were going bat gak crazy. Little did they know, right?
I wish more teams, like Cleveland or others would see what happened there in GB, or further back, in NE (remember Brady sat behind Bledsoe) and the kind of good it does for the future QB and for the club as a whole... The more I think on it, the more I think that guys like Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson are the exception, not the norm.
I completely agree but I think the problem is you have guys like Peyton, Big Ben, luck, dalton, cam and guys like that, that had success right out the shoot. The entire NFL has this accelerated Time frame for "success" and I really think it's screwing the entirety of fanbases out of a chance to see something great develop.
gorgon wrote: Guys like Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees, etc. have more improvisation and playground in their games and have done okay too. Different ways to skin the cat.
I wonder, and this really is just absent minded musing here, can anyone recall how Aaron Rodgers was, pre-Green Bay? I mean, was he "good" with improv QBing in college? Or did he sort of "learn" the improv game from Favre for the couple years he sat behind the Gunslinger?
I don't remember Rodgers at Cal, but personally I think it's about how one's brain is wired. Some people like structure and control, others thrive in more chaotic conditions. That's for football or anything else. Hell, you see it in an office work environment.
But to say he doesn't deal well with "defensive pressure"?
As in "getting hit in the face" ala Super Bowl XLII? The one the Pats almost won if not for a rather improbable catch?
But just thinking of the first Super Bowl he won and this last one?
I think he handles defensive pressure about as well as anyone.
Brady got hurried a handful of times in the most recent Superbowl which is, admittedly, a credit to Belichick's game plan as you can see that Brady's first two checks are almost always receiver's running short routes*. But he really didn't have to deal with much in the way of defensive pressure and, when he did, he effectively threw the ball away or threw picks.
As for 2001: Brady went 16/27 for 145 and 1 TD, while being sacked twice, against a Rams defense that wasn't very good. Defense and special teams won NE that game.
*Basically, Brady usually checks up, not down. Which is wise for a number of reasons.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Chancetragedy wrote: I completely agree but I think the problem is you have guys like Peyton, Big Ben, luck, dalton, cam and guys like that, that had success right out the shoot. The entire NFL has this accelerated Time frame for "success" and I really think it's screwing the entirety of fanbases out of a chance to see something great develop.
I know what you're saying. I think you can ruin a young QB if you're not careful.
HOWEVER, I also think that QB is a position at which you have it or you don't, and that's almost immediately apparent. So I think you can get that sorted out relatively quickly in most cases.
Something amazing to consider is that there are maybe 10 genuinely top-level QBs in the NFL. There are tiers within that group, but you know what I mean. So that's 10 guys out of all the guys who have played college ball in the last 15 years who truly play that position well at the NFL level. The odds are that no one in the current draft class is going to reach that group. In the last few years, I think we'd only consider Luck as being in that group out of all the QBs drafted.
Chancetragedy wrote: I completely agree but I think the problem is you have guys like Peyton, Big Ben, luck, dalton, cam and guys like that, that had success right out the shoot. The entire NFL has this accelerated Time frame for "success" and I really think it's screwing the entirety of fanbases out of a chance to see something great develop.
No one needs to be great in a sport like football, they just need to be good enough. This is something old man Belichick has realized, and it's why the Patriots are perennial competitors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/06 03:29:41
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
gorgon wrote: How fething hard is it to play QB in the NFL?
About .08% in the USA are capable, so not that easy.
But what's .08% of 316,000,000?
OK, it is 252,800.
Enough so that you'd think there would be at least 32 really, really good quarterbacks. If not 64.
So yeah, statistics!
Of which there are now more than enough to put Brady, and the Patriot, in the conversation for "greatest of All Time" (up to this present time) - if not enough to put them at the top.
I divided the number of teams (times two for for the reserve QB's) by 400mill just to be safe since the number is growing everyday. The number is still far less than 252k that can QB pro football.
I don't know what it is about Brady as he has the numbers but he is missing that X factor it seems that keeps him from the #1 spot. It may just be his personality, who knows.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Yah that's crazy to me Ahtman. Brady has numbers that no one outside of Montana even come close to in regards to winning percentage, post season wins/winning %, post season stats, and superbowls. I understand a lot of people think Brady "lucked" into all these championships which seems rediculous to me. I bet if Brady had won 2 of the superbowls by 20 instead of winning all 4 by a combined like 8-10 points it would probably be different. The "system qb" thing has really stuck with brady which again seems rediculous. Oh well still time for #5!!!
I don't know what it is about Brady as he has the numbers but he is missing that X factor it seems that keeps him from the #1 spot. It may just be his personality, who knows.
Seriously?
THAT'S your problem?
OK...
All kidding aside, people trying really hard to deny how good he is are starting (!) to really look...silly/strange/odd/dumb/etc.
Haha alpharius did you see Trent Dilfer absolutely destroy carter about "deflategate" after the SB on ESPN? If you didn't watch it its hilarious. Carter was SOOO MAD afterwards just shaking his head as they went to commercial and they weren't at the desk after the break lol.
I must say this all thanks in the world to Trent Dilfer for his tirade after the KC game because it clearly stuck with the players. And he has since come back and agreed he was wrong and embarrassed and has stuck up for the patriots in the media ever since. Amazing!
I'm staying out of the conversation about who deserves the #1 spot. But I will say this -- I think people gravitate more toward gunslinger QBs than paragons of control and efficiency.
There's something fun about the guy who takes a hit or scrambles away, keeps his eyes downfield and delivers a strike. And there's nothing romantic about the guy who consistently throws the ball away or takes the checkdown when pressured, never taking a chance or a hit. I think people view Brady as being in the latter category.
Now, Brady might have shown more gunslinger skills had he been allowed. Just look at what he did when he was playing with Moss. But the guy played for a control freak QB, and it's almost hard to know where Brady ends and Belichick begins. Certainly it's brought them both a lot of rings.
I also think that a lot of people just don't like Brady personally. Sometimes he comes across as too smug. Other times he tries to pull the "aw shucks, I'm just a regular guy" act, but that comes across as phony because it just doesn't line up. You have the clothes, the hair, the magazine covers, the supermodel wife, etc. It's over the top, even among NFL QBs who marry gorgeous women and have fabulous lives. He's just too pretty, too fancy, and a little too phony for a lot of fans, and I think that intersects with people's perspectives on how he plays.
Contrast him with Favre...prototype gunslinger, tough-guy QB with the Louisiana drawl who likes to go huntin' and fishin' in his spare time. Who would you rather have a beer with? Does Brady even drink beer? It may be dumb, but I don't think Brady scores well in the "beer" test.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/06 19:41:37
I also think that a lot of people just don't like Brady personally. Sometimes he comes across as too smug. Other times he tries to pull the "aw shucks, I'm just a regular guy" act, but that comes across as phony because it just doesn't line up.
Are you sure you're not taking about Peyton Manning?
And you're seriously going to introduce 'personality' to the topic of where an NFL (or any professional athlete) athlete ranks in terms of skill/performance on the field/overall place in history?
I also think that a lot of people just don't like Brady personally. Sometimes he comes across as too smug. Other times he tries to pull the "aw shucks, I'm just a regular guy" act, but that comes across as phony because it just doesn't line up.
Are you sure you're not taking about Peyton Manning?
You mean Peyton Manning of the huge Q rating, who's cultivated one of the most likeable personas of any athlete in the U.S.? I realize you're a partisan and are probably blind to this, but more people like Manning than Brady.
This article is from 2013, but gets into some of this stuff.
And you're seriously going to introduce 'personality' to the topic of where an NFL (or any professional athlete) athlete ranks in terms of skill/performance on the field/overall place in history?
You don't think personality influences people's opinions? Okay.
If the media dictates opinion, then personality can definately affect public opinion.
As to tainted legacies. I just don't see how that stuff really affects much. All these controversies really affected very little in the organizations histories.
Chancetragedy wrote: The "system qb" thing has really stuck with brady which again seems rediculous. Oh well still time for #5!!!
Being a "system QB" is not a bad thing. Quarterbacks, regardless of how they play, are more dependent on the system under which they play than any other player; that's just the nature of the position.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Contrast him with Favre...prototype gunslinger, tough-guy QB with the Louisiana drawl who likes to go huntin' and fishin' in his spare time. Who would you rather have a beer with? Does Brady even drink beer? It may be dumb, but I don't think Brady scores well in the "beer" test.
Brady drinks Appletinis... 'nuff said
@chance... yeah, I don't really see much "tainted" legacy with Brady... for all the glitz and glamour that he has, he still gives off the vibe, in his press conferences and whatnot of being a VERY hard worker... I mean, if he came across like a Mark Sanchez or Jay Cutler, and his team was hit with a major cheating scandal, then yeah.. his legacy would suffer a bit.
I mean, I think if we look around at the League's QBs today, you can see a clear contrast between the "well liked" guys and the not well liked guys... I mean, outside of NE/Boston area, most people hate Brady (for reasons discussed ad nauseum). But if you look further, Philip Rivers, Kapernick, Cutler, the Bucs QB with all the problems, Dalton (it's because he's ginger, I know it), are all among a group that are not well liked, especially outside of the city where they play. I do think that each of the QBs that are not well received kind of are all not well received for different reasons (apathy, douchey-ness, being ginger, etc) Of course, we could also talk about QBs who are well liked, but are despised by division rivals (Big Ben, Romo, RG3, etc)
But really, there aren't too many QBs right now where you can almost universally say, "damn, I really like that guy... even though he plays for the wrong team"
Chancetragedy wrote: The "system qb" thing has really stuck with brady which again seems rediculous. Oh well still time for #5!!!
Being a "system QB" is not a bad thing. Quarterbacks, regardless of how they play, are more dependent on the system under which they play than any other player; that's just the nature of the position.
Agreed with Dogma... Can you really, honestly see Brady doing as well as he does in a Read Option offense? He's not a "mobile" QB... Im not saying he isn't mobile, what I'm saying is that he's at his best when he's in the pocket reading the field and making throws. He's not a guy like Wilson, or Cam, or RG3 where defenses know in the back/front of their minds that if the passing lanes don't develop, he's a threat to break for a 30+ yard run.
It's neither good, nor bad... It's not a knock on his playing ability, it's that he plays best in a certain system, and he's currently with a coach who knows this, and has THAT system in place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/06 21:11:25
I also think that a lot of people just don't like Brady personally. Sometimes he comes across as too smug. Other times he tries to pull the "aw shucks, I'm just a regular guy" act, but that comes across as phony because it just doesn't line up.
Are you sure you're not taking about Peyton Manning?
You mean Peyton Manning of the huge Q rating, who's cultivated one of the most likeable personas of any athlete in the U.S.? I realize you're a partisan and are probably blind to this, but more people like Manning than Brady.
This article is from 2013, but gets into some of this stuff.
And you're seriously going to introduce 'personality' to the topic of where an NFL (or any professional athlete) athlete ranks in terms of skill/performance on the field/overall place in history?
You don't think personality influences people's opinions? Okay.
Because that's what I was driving at?
No, not at all.
But thanks for the total unnecessary and totally not insulting and incendiary Orkmoticon facepalm.
Apparently you're OK with someone's 'personality' getting in the way of 'facts' (or even entering into the conversation at all!) when determining where they may end up (eventually) on an admittedly somewhat nebulous "Greatest of All Time" list.
Now that absolutely deserves...
As for partisanship?
Let me guess - Steelers fan?
Ha!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/06 21:28:10
The one thing I have against Brady is that he is the only QB to run off the field after a SB loss and not congratulate the other team. Losing sucks, but C'mon man...
As for the greatest of all time he will be in the conversation but will be a more interesting conversation 20 years from now. With deflategate and spygate still hot, hard to have a conversation about this. Wonder if those 2 controversies will still loom over brady/patriots or will it be forgotten?
More than likely It will be a blurred memory as the next big name QB will be present and everyone will talk about that QB as the new greatest QB of all time.
Is John Doe greater than Montana, Brady, Favre, Elway and whatever other people like to list for contention.
I think Manning will basically get the Dan Marino treatment with a ring.
It is sad to See Bart Starr never get mentioned in this conversation.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/06 21:48:10
Which is why all of the 'Greatest of All Time' conversations are difficult to have at best...
It is hard to compare across 'eras' but the mental gymnastics and 'logical' gyrations that seem to accompany many Brady/Belichick/Patriots detractors are...interesting.
But I suppose I should be grateful that they're also amusing!
Piston Honda wrote: The one thing I have against Brady is that he is the only QB to run off the field after a SB loss and not congratulate the other team. Losing sucks, but C'mon man...
The "handshake" is forced at best. No one on the losing side wants to do it, SB or not.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Chancetragedy wrote: Piston can you link to the not shaking hands thing? I feel like I heard that before but I can't find anything on Google.
Just watched the 2 super bowls, at the end camera guy caught Brady running right into the tunnel while the rest of the team shook hands. You can find them on youtube.
After the second SB loss there was a small blurb Brady congratulate Eli well after the game in the stadium but nothing was confirmed. Not that it matters. It comes down to public image.
Different ways to skin the cat.
