Is 40k about to get balanced?

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**Voodoo Boyz**

Well Blood Angels is going to get some new rules in a White Dwarf article and the new Chaos dex is due in September. Considering these are the two last big hold outs of over powered or at least highly abusive 3rd Edition codex's that are still running around in 4th, do you think the game is going to start being more balanced?

I say this because despite all the crap that exists with the latest dex's, I feel that they're mostly balanced against each other. Sure there are some lists that are very good against a certain power build, but it likely has its own counter in another army type that is popular.

Granted there are still some very underpowered armies (Orks, Demon Hunters), but almost every other army will be on a somewhat even playing field soon. Do you guys think this is correct or am I off base?

**H.B.M.C.**

If an example of this new 'balanced' trend is the Dark Angel Codex - a Codex where they all but tell you what units to take and what to equip them with - then I don't want to be balanced.

BYE

**Asmodai**

Not really Voodoo.

Eldar has the flying skimmers of doom and Tyranids have the Godzilla lists.

As HBMC said, it's not really balance, just shoe-horning all competitive lists to be identical by taking away the viability of other options.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Yes the Eldar and Nids have very strong builds, but so do the Tau and Marines, which aside from the BT & DA, are the real 4th ed Dex's.

The Eldar, as much as I hate them and their damnable flying fortress delivery systems, have ways that they can be dealt with, especially if you're running Godzilla or Mech Tau.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there won't be one codex that just trumps all like the old Craftworld Eldar or IW/Chaos Undecided.

@HBMC - Dark Angels aren't an example of a "balanced" codex, they're an example of a really crappy codex.

**Mxylplik**

My god people love to whine.

Yes if the DA codex is any indication then the BA update should bring them back into line with the other codexi. And if it got 1/2 the playtested DA did it should be good and balanced Same goes for Chaos. Honestly by making the list all relatively even people will actually have to compete to win.

And if people are so convinced that The Eldar skimmers are so unbalancing maybe they should trade in their Tough 4 and Power armor.

And Tyranids, uhh lets see umm Kill The Synapse creatures.

Right now all the armies have strenghts and weaknesses. I agree Orks need a little bit of a boost but not a whoe bunch. And I can not comment wit any authority on witchunters

**Voodoo Boyz**

Posted By Mxylplik on 04/03/2007 5:59 AM
My god people love to whine.

Yes if the DA codex is any indication then the BA update should bring them back into line with the other codexi. And if it got 1/2 the playtested DA did it should be good and balanced Same goes for Chaos. Honestly by making the list all relatively even people will actually have to compete to win.

And if people are so convinced that The Eldar skimmers are so unbalancing maybe they should trade in their Tough 4 and Power armor.

And Tyranids, uhh lets see umm Kill The Synapse creatures.

Right now all the armies have strenghts and weaknesses. I agree Orks need a little bit of a boost but not a whoe bunch. And I can not comment wit any authority on witchunters

No offense, but if your answer to beating Godzilla Tyranids is "kill the synapse creatures" then you don't know how to play against a Godzilla army.

Sure maybe the solution to beating "normal" Tyranids is to kill the Synapse creatures, but when you talk about 40k competitively there are no "normal" Tyranids, there is only Godzilla and the little friends big bugs decided can tag along.

**Recklessfable**

I think they are screwing up, not because their intent was to shoehorn you into a list, but to build the list to remove the overpowering options. In the end, they removed almost all the options... Sigh.

I'm thinking they are actually dumbing down the lists so the kids they are starting to focus on can actually build an army after they beg Mom for a battleforce box. Right now, most kids (and some of my adult friends) can't play Chaos without building an illegal list, albiet unintentionally. Once they nerf Chaos and remove all the options, it will be easy for them to field that squad of berserkers.

Predictions: They will come in a squad of 8 with the option to upgrade the leader to an aspiring champion with 3-4 wargear options. There will be no cult armies, just like you can't field Deathwing properly anymore. If you take Kharne, the Betrayer, you will be able to field berserkers as troops and elites. At least Khrone as Fast Attack Demons, unlike trying to play a Deathwing army. This will lead to DA players telling Chaos players to stop whining.

Yay for balance.

Maybe the core audience of the design for these games is shifting to kids and folks who want to buy a box with a prebuilt army that is "Equally Competitive" right out of the box...

Yes, I'm being negative. I haven't had my coffee yet. Maybe in two years we'll be talking about how the hobby is better now because the better general is more important that the superior list, but I still think they are killing the game for those of us who ENJOY listbuilding as much as generalship. After all, that is what assigning points to the army is all about. If all I cared about was generalship, I'd play Axis and Allies or some historical game.

**H.B.M.C.**

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/03/2007 6:25 AM

No offense, but if your answer to beating Godzilla Tyranids is "kill the synapse creatures" then you don't know how to play against a Godzilla army.

Your sentence above should have stopped at 'play'.

BYE

**H.B.M.C.**

Posted By Recklessfable on 04/03/2007 7:22 AM

Predictions: They will come in a squad of 8 with the option to upgrade the leader to an aspiring champion with 3-4 wargear options. There will be no cult armies, just like you can't field Deathwing properly anymore. If you take Kharne, the Betrayer, you will be able to field berserkers as troops and elites. At least Khrone as Fast Attack Demons, unlike trying to play a Deathwing army. This will lead to DA players telling Chaos players to stop whining.

That is what I think will happen. There will be no 'Iron Warriors' or 'Emperor's Children'. There will just be an HQ choice that alters some other choices or, worse, the Eldar way of doing lists, where you just pretend it's a specific army type.

But I see the take Kharne = World Eaters, take Lucius = Emperor's Children being a very real situation.

BYE

**Hellfury**

Posted By Mxylplik on 04/03/2007 5:59 AM
1) My god people love to whine.

2) Yes if the DA codex is any indication then the BA update should bring them back into line with the other codexi. And if it got 1/2 the playtested DA did it should be good and balanced Same goes for Chaos. Honestly by making the list all relatively even people will actually have to compete to win.

And if people are so convinced that The Eldar skimmers are so unbalancing maybe they should trade in their Tough 4 and Power armor.

3) And Tyranids, uhh lets see umm Kill The Synapse creatures.

4) Right now all the armies have strenghts and weaknesses. I agree Orks need a little bit of a boost but not a whoe bunch. And I can not comment wit any authority on witchunters

1) Yes they do.

2) Its not bringing them back in line with other codecies, it is nerfing them. Why do I ape the whiners? because its true. If they did this from the start in 4th ed, then it wouldnt be whining. Thats the main problem with the DA dex, is that it is a great attempt to balance a codex, it really is. But when you have lists as you already do with 4th ed (SM, Tyranids, Tau, Eldar) that mock the rules given in the DA dex, it doesnt take a scientist to deduce that Jervis good attempt at balance was too little far too late.

3) I almost discounted your whole post because of that statement.

4) True, even orks can be competitive against certain armies, but definatly not against all armies.
Sisters I am qualified to comment upon though. It was a codex that was made with the 4th ed rules in mind, but not 4th ed codicies in mind. Thats to say, in light of recent armies, many of their units (Repentia come quickly to mind) have absolutely no use whatso ever in the current rules. They didnt even have a use in third edition come to think of it.
But with alternate rules such as Cities of Death, formerly unplayable units such as penitent engines become quite nasty as opposed to exorcists being the no brainer chioice to take..

**Mahu**

I like where 40k is heading.

The only problem with the Dark Angels codex is the fact that they didn't fix Marines to match. If you are going back to a philosophy carry it across the board, instead you have a decent codex (Dark Angels) constantly compared to a Good Codex (Space Marines) which means Dark Angels becomes a Crappy codex.

If they where to change Codex Space Marines, Codex Chaos, and Codex Tyranids with the same philosophy as Dark Angels, the 40k will be well on the road to being a balanced system, and the Dark Angels won't look nearly as bad.

Until that happens Codex Dark Angels is going to constantly be playing down which is a shame.

**Therion-**

That is what I think will happen. There will be no 'Iron Warriors' or 'Emperor's Children'.

That's exactly what will happen. Chaos Legions and special lists will disappear, replaced by one very bland list. Everyone will whine because GW will forget some essential wargear and daemonic upgrades from either the Chaos Lieutenant entry or the Aspiring Champion. The Daemon Prince page will probably look like the Carnifex page, but the Prince will be much less effective than before. For example they will probably decide to remove the fleet of foot move from daemonic speed and increase the cost of flight to 40 points. Dreadaxe will no longer ignore all types of saves.

Everyone can take three units of Obliterators but they will be heavy support and they will either be increased in points cost or nerfed in their weapon choices. I hope Chaos Dreadnoughts become elite to compensate for the HS section becoming overcrowded.

What is somewhat interesting is the new versions for marks of Chaos. Will Nurgle still prevent you from taking heavy weapons? Will Tzeentch still be the mark of an idiot? Regarding wargear we can all rest assured that minor powers will be gone in the new book. Chaos players across the world are hoping daemonic possession stays in the book holo-field style which would mean that every little mama's boy can still spam the same choice all over their heavy support and have a chance of winning a few games here and there.

In the end I'm pretty confident Chaos will be balanced. I'm not worried of it being nerfed too much because as it stands the list is so incredibly overpowered that it can withstand quite a bit of toning down and still remain competitive. Funny as it is I think the Chaos revision will make 40K a better game.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/03/2007 8:10 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/03/2007 6:25 AM

No offense, but if your answer to beating Godzilla Tyranids is "kill the synapse creatures" then you don't know how to play against a Godzilla army.

Your sentence above should have stopped at 'play'.

BYE

HAH, you're probably right, but I'd like to be known as the "Dakka Niceguy"

I'd rather not get into exactly how bad Chaos will get nerfed, but I believe the expectation is that they will be toned down since the extreme flexibilty in their rules allows for a crazy amount of over powered army lists to be constructed, hence their dominance at tournaments.

I won't deny that Eldar are still an overpowered army with the right builds/options but they got toned down from the rediculousness that was the Craftworld codex. I think Therion said it right in that "they have enough cheese to get by". Which seems to be true for most 4th ed dex's.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Posted By Therion- on 04/03/2007 8:30 AM

That is what I think will happen. There will be no 'Iron Warriors' or 'Emperor's Children'.

That's exactly what will happen. Chaos Legions and special lists will disappear, replaced by one very bland list. Everyone will whine because GW will forget some essential wargear and daemonic upgrades from either the Chaos Lieutenant entry or the Aspiring Champion. The Daemon Prince page will probably look like the Carnifex page, but the Prince will be much less effective than before. For example they will probably decide to remove the fleet of foot move from daemonic speed and increase the cost of flight to 40 points. Dreadaxe will no longer ignore all types of saves.

Everyone can take three units of Obliterators but they will be heavy support and they will either be increased in points cost or nerfed in their weapon choices. I hope Chaos Dreadnoughts become elite to compensate for the HS section becoming overcrowded.

What is somewhat interesting is the new versions for marks of Chaos. Will Nurgle still prevent you from taking heavy weapons? Will Tzeentch still be the mark of an idiot? Regarding wargear we can all rest assured that minor powers will be gone in the new book. Chaos players across the world are hoping daemonic possession stays in the book holo-field style which would mean that every little mama's boy can still spam the same choice all over their heavy support and have a chance of winning a few games here and there.

In the end I'm pretty confident Chaos will be balanced. I'm not worried of it being nerfed too much because as it stands the list is so incredibly overpowered that it can withstand quite a bit of toning down and still remain competitive. Funny as it is I think the Chaos revision will make 40K a better game.

I'm hoping you're right.

Honestly I don't think demon summoning will change at all (since it would make them useless and thus decrease model sales) and if it stays as is then Chaos will remain as a competitive army with weaknesses to armies resilient to assault (all Skimmer armies, Orks, hoard nids, etc).

Honestly I'd be on the look out for rules for Terminators getting buffed in some way since they're getting new models, but that's just the cynic in me.

I do agree completely that Chaos getting a revision will make 40k a better game since they're far and away the best codex there is now in the game, especially with Blood Angels getting a revision in WD. I'm still pissed that I have to wait for my Orks to get a new book though.

**WarsmithMorgoth**

I am looking forward to the new Chaos Codex because as good as the current one is, i do like to try new things with my iron warriors.

I just hope that the iron warriors are represented somehow, i would hate for them to be neutered to the point of being vanilla chaos that i then have to restrict my self from taking marks other than undivided and no daemons. That would just really suck. Also if they got rid of servo arms then 5 of my models would be obsolete, which would also suck.

The obliterator situation doesnt bother me in the least, they could modify them however they want i only take 2 now in 2000pts and i dont see that changing in the future.

As far as the chaos codex being the most powerful right now id have to say no
You can build very good armies with it but none are unbeatable, win every tourny, etc.

My army consists of marines with big guns and im sure the new dex wont change my ability to take that.

**dumbuket**

I'd love to see chaos toned down, especially the HQs. Fewer options for the demon prince would be just wonderful, because as it stands, those stupid things are the most dangerous models in the game. It'd be hilarious if they got a carnifex-style page, which from my experiences means a giant list of thoroughly useless options with about two must-have wargear choices and a whole lot of crap nobody will take. Of course, that'd mean two viable demonprince builds and that everyone would take...

Now they just have to do something to balance marines and give tyranids something to do besides take carnifex. I suggest making assault cannons 1 per terminator squad, balancing psychic hoods, and increasing the cost of all tactical marines by three points. For tyranids, hormagaunts and lictors should be cheaper, they should release plastic gargoyles, and give +1 toughness to all the midrange bugs. If they could do anything else, it'd be to improve guard and orks and I'd call it a job well done.

Oh, and throw a bone to the dark eldar players (both of them). Then everyone'd be happy.

**Lorek**

Hey, Mxylplik, say this out loud: "kilplyxm"

kthxbai

**Dice Monkey**

Posted By Iorek on 04/03/2007 10:24 AM
Hey, Mxylplik, say this out loud: "kilplyxm"

kthxbai

Smite! You have me reading his post with Gilbert Godfrey's voice.

They will fix 40K by printing 50 Codex's on Space Marines and one 3 paragraph article in a White Dwarf called "Not Space Marines". It will not be tourney legal and will require Tom Kirby's and Col. Sanders consent on paper and DVD for you to play it at all.

**Davian**

I do think that they're doing a better job of balancing armies against each other (though the DA book makes me question whether or not that trend will pick back up with the next release); although it'll take a while for the wrinkles of especially over- or under-powered armies to sort themselves out, the game overall will be better once it's been done. But still, the problem remains that each list contains several choices which are so attractively priced as to make them no-brainer choices, while others are overpriced or underpowered in comparison to other options in the codex. Also, the core rules themselves contain a number of imbalances which benefit some army builds (skimmer hordes) while putting others at a great disadvantage (transport-based assault armies).

So, while they seem to be moving in the right direction in some respects, there are still plenty of issues which need to be worked out before the game can live up to its full potential. Like many, I wonder if such changes will ever occur without some major shakeup of ideology or personnel within GW.

**Lowinor**

Posted By Therion- on 04/03/2007 8:30 AM

What is somewhat interesting is the new versions for marks of Chaos. Will Nurgle still prevent you from taking heavy weapons? Will Tzeentch still be the mark of an idiot? Regarding wargear we can all rest assured that minor powers will be gone in the new book. Chaos players across the world are hoping daemonic possession stays in the book holo-field style which would mean that every little mama's boy can still spam the same choice all over their heavy support and have a chance of winning a few games here and there.

In the end I'm pretty confident Chaos will be balanced. I'm not worried of it being nerfed too much because as it stands the list is so incredibly overpowered that it can withstand quite a bit of toning down and still remain competitive. Funny as it is I think the Chaos revision will make 40K a better game.

I wonder if we'll see many/most of the marked squads rolled off into separate army list entries; sure it requires a couple of extra pages, but the grand total of new entries is 13 if one keeps possessed and HQ options with selectable marks (as those entries have the least actual changes from unmarked/MoCU models; both get up to one model with armory access, but no squad-based upgrades impacted by the marks) -- Slaanesh gets four units, each other mark gets three (Chosen and CSM for everyone, Slaanesh gets bikes and havocs, Nurgle gets Havocs, Khorne gets bikers, Tzeentch gets rubric termies).

Plastic Chaos termies makes me think they'll get a nice upgrade somehow -- AP3 Reapers, anyone?

Oblits without the 0-1 limitation but as HS choices would be interesting, though it wouldn't surprise me to see daemons sharing the elite spots with the oblits. As it is, unless one is playing IW, the elite slots are wasted.

After seeing what psychic powers loyalist marines get, one might hope Tzeentch gets some really useful powers on its sorcerors. And some viability to go with it on the troops.

**mughi3**

And Tyranids, uhh lets see umm Kill The Synapse creatures.

ah that brings a smile to my face...and almost a tear to my eye...from laughing

even though it isn't a nidzilla list, my wifes nid army(allmost all warriors) is all synapse creatures (except for the rippers). so good luck with that unless you manage to kill the entire army.

**Da Boss**

All warriors?
Hmmmm.Time to break out the scorchas!
I'd like to see 40K as balanced as fantasy, but I don't think it'll happen until there are less power armoured armies.

**thehod**

At Adepticon we did have a very intresting conversation with Jervis Johnson and I agree what he said by how 40K is much like a scale but many things are still far off balance where as in the current edition of Fantasy he said there are fewer inbalances. The design Philosophy stated by Jervis makees me very much optimistic about the future of 40K.

**Mosg**

I'm putting off collecting a mostly-demon army because I don't want it to be marginalized if they neuter daemon summoning ><

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Posted By Therion- on 04/03/2007 8:30 AM
What is somewhat interesting is the new versions for marks of Chaos. Will Nurgle still prevent you from taking heavy weapons? Will Tzeentch still be the mark of an idiot?

I wouldn't be surprised if Marks of Chaos as we know them were eliminated all together. I predict noise marines, berserkers, plague marines, and Thousand Sons will get separate unit entries and will be Elites. Obliterators will move to Heavy Support to free up room for them in Elites. Marked bikers, possessed, havocs, and chosen will no longer exist. Marks will only be an option for lords and daemon princes. You will be able to take cult marines as Troops only if you take the appropriate special character (Lucius, Kharn, Typhus, or Ahriman). Ahriman will automatically pass his psychic tests but will still get shut down by psychic hoods. And he still won't have a power weapon because it's more flavourful that way. Thousand Sons will still suck. So let it be written. So let it be done.

Posted By Lowinor on 04/03/2007 5:22 PM
After seeing what psychic powers loyalist marines get, one might hope Tzeentch gets some really useful powers on its sorcerors.

The pendulum is already swinging back. Chaos psychic powers will be more on the level of Eldar and Dark Angel powers. No FotD or FotA for Tzeentch I'm afraid. It looks like space marine librarians will continue to be the mightiest psykers in the galaxy until C:SM gets redone.

**Jester**

Even if Olga Korbut were holding the book, 40k wouldn't be balanced.

**Anarchyman99**

I really don't know why people say the BA dex is over powered.....hello Space Wolfs....you want to talk over powered. The unit options are much much better. Tons of power weapons.....come on.

**stonefox**

You know how you can have one fat kid on a seesaw sit really close to the fulcrum and have a few really thin kids on the edge of their lever keep the seesaw balanced? Well, replace the fat kid with a (zomg) overpowered codex and the thin kids with balanced codices and there you have your perfectly balanced 40k game. This includes the thin kids making fun of the fat kid for being fat. So if you play a balanced codex, it is your duty to insult players of overpowered codices.

**gorgon**

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/03/2007 8:41 AMI'm hoping you're right.

Honestly I don't think demon summoning will change at all (since it would make them useless and thus decrease model sales) and if it stays as is then Chaos will remain as a competitive army with weaknesses to armies resilient to assault (all Skimmer armies, Orks, hoard nids, etc).

Honestly I'd be on the look out for rules for Terminators getting buffed in some way since they're getting new models, but that's just the cynic in me.

I do agree completely that Chaos getting a revision will make 40k a better game since they're far and away the best codex there is now in the game, especially with Blood Angels getting a revision in WD. I'm still pissed that I have to wait for my Orks to get a new book though.

Daemon summoning is tricky. Even a tweak or two might be enough to send daemons permanently to the bottom of the army case. My bet is that the rules will stay more or less as is (although maybe mirroring DS for their entry setup), but they'll address summoning through icon availability or cost. The rumor is that plastic daemons are on the way, and if true they'll want to keep them an attractive option.

My expectations are pretty much in line with Therion's. How they handle marks and the cults are clearly the biggest questions out there. I wouldn't be surprised to see them deal with marks and cults in a general way in this codex, but leave the door wide open for a future codex(-ices) dealing with the "big four" Legions in greater detail.

**Jayden63**

I've not posted in a 40K forum for a long time, but this thread is a perfect representation of all of the little things that GW is doing to piss me off. The direction 40K is heading is a joke. Balance, yeah right. Unfortunatly there are already 3 codexs out that stomp on the now current trend on how they are going to do things. A WD article fix isn't going to help either.

GW has lost the will to actually work on their product. They have lost to will to take everything that made 40K insteresting and now all we have is cookie cutter lists, with no individual flavor. Maybe, just maybe if they had been doing their job right over the last two to three years it wouldn't have come down to what we are currently are left with.