Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - Chapter Approved page 41

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**Spectral**

Hello there guys ,

I am attending ETC tournament in August and I 've just been informed that index units are not allowed !! So I run a DA Vanguard detachment in my list consisting of a master with TH&SS , 5 man Deathwing Knights with Maces & SS and 2 Psyfleman Ven Dreads . So I just lost an autocannon there

. My question is , if in the codex you can have at least 1 autocannon in order to kit em as 1 autocannon + 1 lascannon or the autocannon choice isn't even on codex at all? ... yeah what a bumer ehh

?!?!

Thank you in advance

**Aeri**

Do what do you guys think about the champion (+ on bike/terminator armour)?
How do you use them?

**bullyboy**

Aeri wrote:
Do what do you guys think about the champion (+ on bike/terminator armour)?
How do you use them?

I think the regular champ is a beast at 44pts. in fact, based on some recent gaming, i wonder if it would be worth it to almost do a rhino plasma rush. Throw in a bunch of other T7/8 vehicels and dreads for saturation.

3 of the following...

Rhino, 2 SBs, 1 champion, 5 Vets with combi-plasma/SS.

Then place one of these characters in each rhino...ancient with combi-plasma, Lt with combi-plas, power sword, Master, combi-plas, powersword

Sure, WotDA can only be used on one unit at a time, but at least you have redundancy.

**TangoTwoBravo**

Aeri wrote:
Do what do you guys think about the champion (+ on bike/terminator armour)?
How do you use them?

I've had good mileage out of the Ravenwing Champion. Sometimes he is an escort for Sammael, heroically intervening against sneaky gitz that try to assault Sammael from the flanks/behind and then using the Eye of the Unseen relic to induce tears of rage (even with the nerf to that relic and others of its kind). He can also function as an ersatz assassin, racing out of the army to pick off targets of opportunity.

I found the Deathwing Champion effective when 8th Edition dropped, but his utility has diminished in step with his comrades.

The standard Champion is quite good!

**skchsan**

Reivax26 wrote:
I am beginning to wonder if Zustier might have a point. Has anyone ever ran a pure Ravenwing army?

By that I mean all bikes and Land Speeders with Sammael and his Talonmasters? The more I look at the list the more viable it gets. It is extremely fast and very shooty when you think about the squadrons of speeders being around Sam and the TM's.

I don't have the models to pull it off right now or I would try the list myself. You would need a bunch of Land Speeders to pull it off right .

I run a pure RW list for local 1750 pt meta. The list is:

-1x Sammael on Corvex
-2x Talonmaster
-3x HB Attack Bikes
-3x 3-man bikes; PF, 2x meltagun
-1x 6-man RBK
-1x Dark Shroud
-2x Typhoon LS
-1x Dark Talon

Models: 25
Units: 14
CP: 6

Note our meta disallows specialist detachments due to balance issues (that not everyone gets a specialist detachments).

The list does fairly well in medium to heavy terrain boards. You need to zip around from LOS to LOS, and due to the density of firepower per unit, it's good at pouring down bullets with small footprint. The AB's are used as DS screens because well placed DS is detrimental to the list. The melta/PF bikers serve primarily as a distraction carnifex (due to 3x1d6D + dakka). The list is purely about redundancies of varying scales to throw off the opponent's decision making.

The issue with speeder heavy list comes down to the rule of three's, where you must run the risk of runoff wounds in larger units. LS's aren't nearly as tough enough to withstand focused volley fires, even with the 4++ from jink. In my experience, 3 individual speeders is the cut off point for diminishing returns on redundancy. It's almost never worth it to squadron them into groups of 3 or more to take advantage of that +6 to Movement.

**axisofentropy**

Aeri wrote:
Do what do you guys think about the champion (+ on bike/terminator armour)?
How do you use them?

the standard champion is criminally undercosted because he doesn't pay for the Blade of Caliban. Still very limited utility tho.

**skchsan**

axisofentropy wrote:
Aeri wrote:
Do what do you guys think about the champion (+ on bike/terminator armour)?
How do you use them?
the standard champion is criminally undercosted because he doesn't pay for the Blade of Caliban. Still very limited utility tho.

Agreed on both points. Melee is too weak in 8th ed to make champions worthwhile.

**Chaplin Reed**

Question for the hive mind, what would you use to build around the astraeus in a 2000pt list in a itc format tournament?

**ZergSmasher**

This might seem a bit strange, but it seems like Dreadnought gunlines might actually be a thing now. I played in a tournament yesterday using a Dark Angels list (with the Loyal 32 for extra CP) and I got my butt kicked all over the place. Even the lists I didn't face would likely have roflstomped me. The opponents I did face were 2 different Tau lists and Eldar flyer spam. I just got flat hard countered, plus I made a few play mistakes that only made everything worse. Of the lists that were at the tournament, most of them were gunline lists with 2 different Ultramarine lists (one of which spammed Dreadnoughts of various types) and a Chaos list with a bunch of FW Hellforged dreads. Between those and the Tau lists, I'm thinking gunlines are becoming a lot more prevalent, which means we Dark Angels players need to adapt. Unfortunately, straight Dreadnought spam is probably not that good for us, as Ultramarines do it better thanks to Bobby G. The old standby Azrael Hellblaster gunline will just get consistently outranged by any proper gunline, so that's out too. I'm honestly probably going to shelve my Dark Angels until the meta shifts again, as currently there's just no niche for us. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

**Oldman Lee**

ZergSmasher wrote:
This might seem a bit strange, but it seems like Dreadnought gunlines might actually be a thing now. I played in a tournament yesterday using a Dark Angels list (with the Loyal 32 for extra CP) and I got my butt kicked all over the place. Even the lists I didn't face would likely have roflstomped me. The opponents I did face were 2 different Tau lists and Eldar flyer spam. I just got flat hard countered, plus I made a few play mistakes that only made everything worse. Of the lists that were at the tournament, most of them were gunline lists with 2 different Ultramarine lists (one of which spammed Dreadnoughts of various types) and a Chaos list with a bunch of FW Hellforged dreads. Between those and the Tau lists, I'm thinking gunlines are becoming a lot more prevalent, which means we Dark Angels players need to adapt. Unfortunately, straight Dreadnought spam is probably not that good for us, as Ultramarines do it better thanks to Bobby G. The old standby Azrael Hellblaster gunline will just get consistently outranged by any proper gunline, so that's out too. I'm honestly probably going to shelve my Dark Angels until the meta shifts again, as currently there's just no niche for us. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

Yep we are in a terrible place at the moment. Ravenwing is the best style list we can do at the moment but that falls apart when you play one of the top tier net lists. Ive got hopes for 9th edition but that could be years off I hope games workshop do something to address marines as a whole as there not great full stop. I guess all we can do is live in hope

**Reivax26**

I am starting to wonder how good we would be at making a traditional Gunline style army since we can reroll 1's already if we don't move.

**ZergSmasher**

I've thought about that too, but then I remember that Ultramarines do it better thanks to Bobby G. And honestly I don't see many Bobby G lists winning big tournaments either.

**Grand.Master.Raziel**

Reivax26 wrote:
In about a month I have a few games that are going on a Youtube channel. I threw together this list as I am not entirely sure what I will be playing against.
Batallion:
Master
Lt
5 man Tac Squads with Las x3
Dark Talon
Darkshroud

Spearhead:
Techmarine: Servo Harness, Axe
Whirlwind:Castellan
Whirlwind:Castellan
Land Raider Crusader

Vanguard:
Terminator Librarian: Force Axe, Aversion, Righteous Repugnance, Shroud of Heroes. Warlord with Brilliant Strategist
5 Deathwing Knights
Ven Dread with Twin Las and DCCW
Ven Dread with Assault Cannon and DCCW
DW Ancient with SS&TH. Eye of the Unseen

Basic idea is a Dark Angel version of a gunline list. It has the Knights and Librarian with Ancient as a close combat answer. I was trying to be as balanced as possible.

This list is not really all that gunliney. You hardly have any weapons with greater than a 48" range, and you have too many points wrapped up in a small amount of models. Plus, Whirlwinds are just plain terrible, unless it's the Forge World Relic Whirlwind Scorpius. That thing is pretty good.

A few tweaks you could make without a wholesale list revamp: You don't really need the Master you have in the Battalion. You're not going to be moving your Tac Squads very much, so they'll get the benefit of Grim Resolve every time you fire with them. So, you could drop him. Drop the regular Whirlwinds and invest in a Whirlwind Scorpius. With the points you saved off the Master, you can buy a couple of Scout Squads to give yourself a bigger envelope opponent's can't Deep Strike into, and/or have a couple cheap units you can task to sitting on objectives. Anyhow, the Techmarine can then be one of your Battalion HQs, and the Scorpius can be fielded as part of your Vanguard.

More broadly speaking, if I was going to make a Dark Angels gunline with exclusively OldMarine models, I'd base it around Azrael and Devastator Squads. They'd be hard to shift and hard to ignore. From there, I'd have some kind of mobile element and some objective cappers.

**lindsay40k**

How are Whirlwinds terrible? I had an infuriating encounter with one last week. Lengthways game and it just tore through my Chaos Cultists. Even finished off Karanak after bolter fire took out his screen. I’d wanted to force my opponent to come to me, but they outraged me and that was that.

**Reivax26**

3 Whirlwinds setup like that can throw 6d6 str 6 shots at 72 inch range. Set them up in a corner and let them rain hell down on infantry units. With a generic Master and LT with them they are rerolling 1's to hit and wound.

That will destroy screen units in a damn hurry.

**ZergSmasher**

The issue with Whirlwinds is that there are other units even within our own codex that perform the chaff-clearing role better. 6d6 shots averages out to 21 shots, although it could be as few as 6 (unlikely) or as many as 36 (equally unlikely). Dark Talons put out 24 (admittedly weaker) shots if they get within 12 inches, and they cost less than 3 Whirlwinds, and they also have the stasis bomb and rift cannon. And they also synergize with other units better, specifically other Ravenwing units if you take the Ravenwing Attack Squadron. That's just one example. Also, Whirlwinds are vulnerable to being bad touched by enemy units, while other things in the codex aren't. That weakness is shared with any number of our ground vehicles.

**Reivax26**

Actually the very nature of the Whirlwinds rule about not having to be able to see to hit more than makes up for its vulnerability. Hide it behind terrain or behind something like a Predator with triple Las.

In a gunline army they would probably surprise you. The main problem with them honestly is the points cost. They should be cheaper. Way cheaper in fact. It's probably the most underrated tank in the Space Marine arsenal.

**lindsay40k**

Yeah, the Whirlwind I faced was hiding out of LoS behind a building full of Long Fangs, preventing me from deepstriking in the corner. If I’d have been able to get my Warp Talons into that firebase, I’d have easily won the game. As it is, they had a solid anchor behind them - that, unlike my own Cultist screens, was putting out damage every turn.

I don’t doubt that a Scorpius would be better - got my eyes on one, myself - but the basic WW does seem viable in an Adeptus Astartes gunline.

**bullyboy**

The only thing that has made me almost consider in a whirlwind is the startegem that allows them to auto hit since I run speeder characters

**Reivax26**

I don't know why they didn't give them a Strat like Predators and Vindicators.

**ZergSmasher**

bullyboy wrote:
The only thing that has made me almost consider in a whirlwind is the startegem that allows them to auto hit since I run speeder characters

Does that actually work, or does it have to be the specific unit Land Speeders? If all it needs is the LAND SPEEDER keyword, then Whirlwinds may have gone up a bit in my estimation. Still too many points though.

**bullyboy**

ZergSmasher wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
The only thing that has made me almost consider in a whirlwind is the startegem that allows them to auto hit since I run speeder characters

Does that actually work, or does it have to be the specific unit Land Speeders? If all it needs is the LAND SPEEDER keyword, then Whirlwinds may have gone up a bit in my estimation. Still too many points though.

It just says Dark Angels Land Speeder, so pretty much all speeders including Talon Master, Sableclaw and Dark Shroud. You could just imagine it thematically, the Talon Master guiding the Ravenwing onto their prey and then calling in a strike from the Whirlwind...love it. 85pts for the castellan doesn't seem too bad in reality.

**Reivax26**

Which is a better combo for the points?

Dark Talon + Multi Melta Attack Bike
Or
Nephilim Jetfighter + Land Speeder with MM and Heavy Bolter

This is the last decision for my 2k list. It is an intriguing one.

**bullyboy**

Dark Talon and AB

**ZergSmasher**

Reivax26 wrote:
Which is a better combo for the points?

Dark Talon + Multi Melta Attack Bike
Or
Nephilim Jetfighter + Land Speeder with MM and Heavy Bolter

This is the last decision for my 2k list. It is an intriguing one.

Dark Talon all day every day. Attack bikes are not great though, especially with the very iffy Multimelta. Nephilim Jetfighters are like the Dark Talon, except worse in almost every way.

**TangoTwoBravo**

Absolutely Dark Talon.

I have run Attack Bikes with Multimelta either in a Ravenwing Biker Squad or on their own to fill out a FA slot. They aren't great, but they can attract fire and sometimes screen my main Black Knight force against deep striking close combat foes.

**dicerage**

Hey DA guys,

I've got a 2k match against an Alpha Legion player this week. He's a bit of a jerk, so it would be awesome to beat him. I've played AdMech all of 8th, but was a brief DA player in 7th.

His list is likely to include a lot of obliterators and cultists.

Would really appreciate some tips and insights.

The list I've got so far in 2x battalions:
-------------

2x smash cpt
Talonmaster (Want to give him Heavenfall blade)
Lieutenant

6x Tactical squad, 2 heavy bolters

10 terminators, 3 w TH/SS, 1 assault cannon, 1 cyclone missile
Venerable dread, assault cannon

2x Darkshroud

Stormraven w lascannons, hurricane bolter, typhoon missile

-------

I've got a lot of Greenwing and Deathwing stuff in my collection as DA was my first love, but little Ravenwing.

Any tips, tricks, thoughts? especially vs Alpha Legion w oblits/cultists

**Reivax26**

I played the 2 games on the YouTube channel. First was against Necrons and second was against Tyranids.

I won the first game after he quit. 4 turns in I was up 9-2 on Victory Points. I took down a Monolith, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Wraiths, 2 full squads of Warriors and a full squad of Immortals.

2nd game was against the Nids. This one started bad and ended worse. I conceded after 4 turns. He seized the Initiative and managed a first turn lock. High point was I managed to kill a Trygon Prime and a Broodlord in close combat with my Deathwing Ancient and some Deathwing Knights.

List was:

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought with Twin Las
Sammael on Sableclaw

3 5 man tac squads with missile launchers

9 man Deathwing Terminator squad with a Plasma Cannon
5 Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Ancient with Storm Shield and Thunder. Eye of the Unseen.

Land Speeder with MM and Heavy Bolter
Darkshroud

Land Raider Crusader

Nephilim Jetfighter

On a side note that Jetfighter soaked up a ridiculous amount of fire from the Necrons over the course of 2 full rounds of shooting. The distraction plus the models he killed made him more than worth it.

**Maxamato**

Hi All!

Here is an idea for a character heavy list I play aorund:

Spoiler:

The idea:
Sammy, TM's and the Shield Captians take care of screens and go into the CC, if necessary.
The Libby Bots are there for the big staff.
The rhinos drive around and cover the chars or deny overwatch.
Scouts get the on objectives outside my deployment zone and the TS should hold the objective in my zone.

From 14 CP onwards, after subtracting the (relatively) fixed Detachment and Relic payments, there will be 8 CP over. If necessary, the 3 Shield Captains also get the Victor of the Blood Games gem.

What do you think, can this work?

**Reivax26**

Is there any use for Scout Bikers?