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savemelmac wrote:
The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).

Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.

Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.

They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.

The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell

 Mr Morden wrote:

savemelmac wrote:
The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).

Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.

Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.

They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.

The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell

They also destroyed a steam tank in the Imperial Engineers School fighting the skaven. Killed summoned demons on the castle walls of Praag during the Chaos invasion. Enlisted the help of multiple magicians who cast pretty heavy magic. Flew through magic tunnels that transported them across the continent.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

savemelmac wrote:
The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).

Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.

Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.

They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.

The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell

They also destroyed a steam tank in the Imperial Engineers School fighting the skaven. Killed summoned demons on the castle walls of Praag during the Chaos invasion. Enlisted the help of multiple magicians who cast pretty heavy magic. Flew through magic tunnels that transported them across the continent.

See, I don´t object any of these existing "at all". I simply do not feel that every imperial army should have 4 steam tanks, 3 units of demigryphs and 2 technici on robohorses. The unsinkable 3 in Gotrek and Felix was fun because it was a one off. Just as the general demon army should not have half a dozen Bloodthirsters, the ultimate personification of Khorne, destroyer of worlds. I am fully aware that there is magic in the world of warhammer, and obviously the threshhold is different for everybody.
To me it is the same as in James Bond movies or the BL novels - it is totally fine to be over the top and unrealistic at times, but when it is happening all the time for everybody it just loses its character. At least to me.

And the concept for the mechanical horse is awesome! I would have liked that a lot better as a miniature.

savemelmac wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

savemelmac wrote:
The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).

Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.

Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.

They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.

The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell

They also destroyed a steam tank in the Imperial Engineers School fighting the skaven. Killed summoned demons on the castle walls of Praag during the Chaos invasion. Enlisted the help of multiple magicians who cast pretty heavy magic. Flew through magic tunnels that transported them across the continent.

See, I don´t object any of these existing "at all". I simply do not feel that every imperial army should have 4 steam tanks, 3 units of demigryphs and 2 technici on robohorses. The unsinkable 3 in Gotrek and Felix was fun because it was a one off. Just as the general demon army should not have half a dozen Bloodthirsters, the ultimate personification of Khorne, destroyer of worlds. I am fully aware that there is magic in the world of warhammer, and obviously the threshhold is different for everybody.
To me it is the same as in James Bond movies or the BL novels - it is totally fine to be over the top and unrealistic at times, but when it is happening all the time for everybody it just loses its character. At least to me.

And the concept for the mechanical horse is awesome! I would have liked that a lot better as a miniature.

Well put. As I said, Morden, it's about quantity and emphasis - Gotrek and Felix are special exactly because their lives are atypical for the world. And the novels take pains to show the mundanity that their experiences elevate them above; most people are not Felix, they're his fat merchant brother, or barkeeps, or mercenaries, or courtiers, or plain old dirt farmers. Most Dwarfs don't build giant combustion-driven airships or battle Bloodthirsters in single combat. Most everyday people in the Empire don't have the drive or capability required to cast civilised life aside and become a corpse-robber in the Blackfire Pass like Angelika Fleischer, and even among the handful that do most will never be brought back from the dead by a maybe-divine intervention. Most people will never even meet a high magister like Max, or wield a dragon-slaying magical sword, or escape a Black Ark.

It wouldn't be Warhammer without steam tanks and ludicrous literal-fire-for-hair sorcerers and magic weapons and little clockpunk oddities and the occasional maybe-apocalypse...but it also isn't Warhammer if those things are the main focus as they increasingly became, because the more mundane pseudohistorical stuff is the glue that binds all the pop culture references and thinly veiled jokes and mad high fantasy stuff together in a way that feels real, even though it's in no way "realistic".

Focusing on those aspects of the setting also doesn't really make sense to me in the context of AoS - GW are already producing an ultra-high-magic setting where the mystical is the mundane and epic mighty heroes seem to spring up out of the ground on demand, so the more they tilt WHF towards that mythic and mystical tone the less there is to differentiate it.

 Yodhrin wrote:

savemelmac wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

savemelmac wrote:
The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).

Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.

Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.

They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.

The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell

They also destroyed a steam tank in the Imperial Engineers School fighting the skaven. Killed summoned demons on the castle walls of Praag during the Chaos invasion. Enlisted the help of multiple magicians who cast pretty heavy magic. Flew through magic tunnels that transported them across the continent.

See, I don´t object any of these existing "at all". I simply do not feel that every imperial army should have 4 steam tanks, 3 units of demigryphs and 2 technici on robohorses. The unsinkable 3 in Gotrek and Felix was fun because it was a one off. Just as the general demon army should not have half a dozen Bloodthirsters, the ultimate personification of Khorne, destroyer of worlds. I am fully aware that there is magic in the world of warhammer, and obviously the threshhold is different for everybody.
To me it is the same as in James Bond movies or the BL novels - it is totally fine to be over the top and unrealistic at times, but when it is happening all the time for everybody it just loses its character. At least to me.

And the concept for the mechanical horse is awesome! I would have liked that a lot better as a miniature.

Well put. As I said, Morden, it's about quantity and emphasis - Gotrek and Felix are special exactly because their lives are atypical for the world. And the novels take pains to show the mundanity that their experiences elevate them above; most people are not Felix, they're his fat merchant brother, or barkeeps, or mercenaries, or courtiers, or plain old dirt farmers. Most Dwarfs don't build giant combustion-driven airships or battle Bloodthirsters in single combat. Most everyday people in the Empire don't have the drive or capability required to cast civilised life aside and become a corpse-robber in the Blackfire Pass like Angelika Fleischer, and even among the handful that do most will never be brought back from the dead by a maybe-divine intervention. Most people will never even meet a high magister like Max, or wield a dragon-slaying magical sword, or escape a Black Ark.

It wouldn't be Warhammer without steam tanks and ludicrous literal-fire-for-hair sorcerers and magic weapons and little clockpunk oddities and the occasional maybe-apocalypse...but it also isn't Warhammer if those things are the main focus as they increasingly became, because the more mundane pseudohistorical stuff is the glue that binds all the pop culture references and thinly veiled jokes and mad high fantasy stuff together in a way that feels real, even though it's in no way "realistic".

Focusing on those aspects of the setting also doesn't really make sense to me in the context of AoS - GW are already producing an ultra-high-magic setting where the mystical is the mundane and epic mighty heroes seem to spring up out of the ground on demand, so the more they tilt WHF towards that mythic and mystical tone the less there is to differentiate it.

But the whole point of a Warhammer Fantasy Battle is that its not everyday in the Shire - its a Battle! We are no looking at the innkeeper and his son pouring drinks but a horde of Skaven or Orcs facing off against a Empire or Undead force.

Even in WFRP you play at the level you want because the world is that flexible - you can have a the adventueres of a young rat catcher trying to survive in some backwater town or you can search for the lost hammer of Sigmar and save or damn the Empire as the Enemy Within Campaign concludes.

I have had characters that lived and died in little places and that no one of noticed or missed in the Old World ..............and I have played a noble who became a vampire that travelled to Lustria and fled from a Slann and helped kill a tortured dark elf dragon to survive, she finally having to choose between undeath and chaos in Kislev at the culmination of an epic campaign...

Lord of the Rings is not just a bunch of hobbits in the Shire and Warhammer is not just the little people.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
All 8 were still used in battles.
So the AoS pure steam tank armies aren’t all that far fetched.
Just a shame we don’t have the variants any more.

Also, wouldn’t surprise me if more were made soon.
It’s a good cash grab.

As silly as it got, I did like the crazy Davinci Clockwork Punk/Steampunk Empire. Yeah robo horse may have been a bit too far but it was a good fantasy human take unlike anythink else around.

See, I don't actually have a problem with that kind of thing existing in the setting, despite broadly feeling the same as savemelmac in the sense of considering circa-6th and the BL novels with that tone as the peak of the setting in terms of the background and general "feel". I don't even object to the existence of your Demigryph Knights and the like(for example, make the Demigryphs a rarity bred in the Emperor's zoo and used exclusively by the Reiksguard Inner Circle, essentially a "special character-unit") just the way they're added. The issue is when they define the setting, as they came to late 7th into 8th & ET, rather than being curiosities and oddities. The "clockpunk" stuff, the very-high-magic stuff, they're like fresh ground black pepper - they make excellent seasoning, but you don't want to eat that and nothing else. People will say to just ignore the bits you don't care for, but it's hard to reconcile the world depicted in Gotrek & Felix(pre-atrocious ET duology) or Angelika Fleischer or the Florin & Lorenzo books with the idea of magic being commonplace and everything being 100% high fantasy clockpunk 100% of the time - a world that has a clockwork pidgeon delivery network and magical doodads all over the place isn't a world where travel and communication are difficult and a single magical sword and the person who wields it are special.

What baffles me about the robohorse is that Dave Gallagher's concept art for it was both more fitting - in that it was still completely unrealistic and OTT but not utterly implausible - and IMO much cooler. DG's Empire concepts from around '04 are actually a great example of trying to find that balance; most of them can't even pretend to be "historical" beyond the general landschneckt'y aesthetic, but the really out-there stuff is almost all depicted as being crazy Master Engineer one-offs, or flamboyant characters, or the province of mad wizard lords, that kind of thing.

Spoiler:

Off-topic, but can I just say I love that concept art? It's like what would happen if Leonardo Davinci was asked to design a motorcycle.

I started Warhammer old world with Man o War. So I started off with Tzeentch flying castles, big greenskin ships with things like giant hammers. Black Arks and Dragons with castles on them with Dwarf Submarines and gigantic ship cannons that had Wizards aboard to fight each other.

So my basis pretty much came into being unlike those who have 6th edition and some of the WFRP on mind. I pretty much got introduced through magical and powerful steamtech rather then just gritty Empire.

Thats one of the joys for me - its can be quite a variety of different experences.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Thats one of the joys for me - its can be quite a variety of different experences.

Same, but right now there's the problem of "My way is the only way" going on here.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Thats one of the joys for me - its can be quite a variety of different experences.

Same, but right now there's the problem of "My way is the only way" going on here.

Well don't get too distressed - your way became the only way.

I was going to say - its valid to criticize the my way is the only way mentality.

But its also legit to acknowledge that there is some disdain for the fact that the only way that exists is one way and there is a whole swathe of people that don't like that way but have no choice but to play that way because there is no other way.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Thats one of the joys for me - its can be quite a variety of different experences.

Same, but right now there's the problem of "My way is the only way" going on here.

The more similar WHF classic (or whatever they are calling it) is to AOS the fewer people you will bring back. Most of the people that love the wackier parts of the old WHF likely also enjoy AOS.
If GW wants to pick up new non AOS customers, simple logic suggests they offer something substantially different than what AOS offers.
The more whacky the units get (Ice Spears!) the more AOS sales you cannibalize.

 Yodhrin wrote:



See, I don't actually have a problem with that kind of thing existing in the setting, despite broadly feeling the same as savemelmac in the sense of considering circa-6th and the BL novels with that tone as the peak of the setting in terms of the background and general "feel". I don't even object to the existence of your Demigryph Knights and the like(for example, make the Demigryphs a rarity bred in the Emperor's zoo and used exclusively by the Reiksguard Inner Circle, essentially a "special character-unit") just the way they're added. The issue is when they define the setting, as they came to late 7th into 8th & ET, rather than being curiosities and oddities. The "clockpunk" stuff, the very-high-magic stuff, they're like fresh ground black pepper - they make excellent seasoning, but you don't want to eat that and nothing else. People will say to just ignore the bits you don't care for, but it's hard to reconcile the world depicted in Gotrek & Felix(pre-atrocious ET duology) or Angelika Fleischer or the Florin & Lorenzo books with the idea of magic being commonplace and everything being 100% high fantasy clockpunk 100% of the time - a world that has a clockwork pidgeon delivery network and magical doodads all over the place isn't a world where travel and communication are difficult and a single magical sword and the person who wields it are special.

What baffles me about the robohorse is that Dave Gallagher's concept art for it was both more fitting - in that it was still completely unrealistic and OTT but not utterly implausible - and IMO much cooler. DG's Empire concepts from around '04 are actually a great example of trying to find that balance; most of them can't even pretend to be "historical" beyond the general landschneckt'y aesthetic, but the really out-there stuff is almost all depicted as being crazy Master Engineer one-offs, or flamboyant characters, or the province of mad wizard lords, that kind of thing.

Well said.

And I love wheely steam horse!

I like to just assume that every army that hits the table top - the IG with 20+ plasma guns, the Empire black powder army, the Chaos force with magic coming out its wazoo - is an All-Star, NY Yankees, Olympic Contender sort of team.

The Empire force with nothing but crossbows and shoeless guys with sharp sticks already got mulched into the dirt, the IG force that had only grenade launchers is busy fighting the Chaos Cultists led by a mad psyker with tenatacle arms. We don't see 99% of the armies that exist in the setting because if we're going to take the time to buy, build and paint an army they're going to be the best of the best.

Of course I've got 30 penal legionnaires sitting on my desk armed with flamers so what do I know.

 Gallahad wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Thats one of the joys for me - its can be quite a variety of different experences.

Same, but right now there's the problem of "My way is the only way" going on here.

The more similar WHF classic (or whatever they are calling it) is to AOS the fewer people you will bring back. Most of the people that love the wackier parts of the old WHF likely also enjoy AOS.
If GW wants to pick up new non AOS customers, simple logic suggests they offer something substantially different than what AOS offers.
The more whacky the units get (Ice Spears!) the more AOS sales you cannibalize.

This is probably the truest of the statements responding to my comment at least when it comes to rationalization rather then just snarky commentary, I will agree with this yes, but at the same time there is a massive difference between one unit and suddenly Kislev is nearly entirely ice based with ice swordsmen and ice spears with polar bears shooting ice daggers from their mouths.

The idea is that there can be a reasonable balance between the two. A unit of swordsmen in the Empire fighting off Beastmen in the muck and rain to defend some town on the outskirts is as valid as a more elite unit guard defending the Ice Queen against Chaos is just as valid... I genuinely do not want everything to go pure AoS either for WHTOW. A remembrance that there's magic in the world as well as the soldiers fighting against impossible odds on the frontlines is what I want.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Thats one of the joys for me - its can be quite a variety of different experences.

Same, but right now there's the problem of "My way is the only way" going on here.

The more similar WHF classic (or whatever they are calling it) is to AOS the fewer people you will bring back. Most of the people that love the wackier parts of the old WHF likely also enjoy AOS.
If GW wants to pick up new non AOS customers, simple logic suggests they offer something substantially different than what AOS offers.
The more whacky the units get (Ice Spears!) the more AOS sales you cannibalize.

This is probably the truest of the statements responding to my comment at least when it comes to rationalization rather then just snarky commentary, I will agree with this yes, but at the same time there is a massive difference between one unit and suddenly Kislev is nearly entirely ice based with ice swordsmen and ice spears with polar bears shooting ice daggers from their mouths.

The idea is that there can be a reasonable balance between the two. A unit of swordsmen in the Empire fighting off Beastmen in the muck and rain to defend some town on the outskirts is as valid as a more elite unit guard defending the Ice Queen against Chaos is just as valid... I genuinely do not want everything to go pure AoS either for WHTOW. A remembrance that there's magic in the world as well as the soldiers fighting against impossible odds on the frontlines is what I want.

If there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty nowadays it's that GW doesn't do restraint anymore. That "one" unit of Ice Spike Spike Icers will become the entire damn army in one fell swoop.


Okay, since we're down to mostly speculation and wishlisting, I'll throw in what I wish for more than anything: restrictions and structure in army lists. The US wouldn't send 50 Divisions of Delta Force to a battle; 50 Divisions of Delta Force don't even exist. Why would I expect differently with a WFB army? Or a 40K army for that matter?

 Just Tony wrote:


If there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty nowadays it's that GW doesn't do restraint anymore. That "one" unit of Ice Spike Spike Icers will become the entire damn army in one fell swoop.


Okay, since we're down to mostly speculation and wishlisting, I'll throw in what I wish for more than anything: restrictions and structure in army lists. The US wouldn't send 50 Divisions of Delta Force to a battle; 50 Divisions of Delta Force don't even exist. Why would I expect differently with a WFB army? Or a 40K army for that matter?

Yeah but if Warhammer 2k was the big wargame you can be sure we'd be seeing a whole lot of SEAL/Delta/Spetnaz armies a not so many Wisconsin National Guard or Trinidad Self Defense Force armies. If players have to lay out $XXX or $XXXX in money and XX hours of time to play, we're going to want to play the coolest, most awesome, best.

Yeah there will be freaks who spend that time and money on conscripts, penal troops, cultists and grots, but don't begrudge the folks who want to play marines or Ice Warriors of Elsa. We're all nerds here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides...

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/

https://fireforge-games.com/

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:


If there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty nowadays it's that GW doesn't do restraint anymore. That "one" unit of Ice Spike Spike Icers will become the entire damn army in one fell swoop.


Okay, since we're down to mostly speculation and wishlisting, I'll throw in what I wish for more than anything: restrictions and structure in army lists. The US wouldn't send 50 Divisions of Delta Force to a battle; 50 Divisions of Delta Force don't even exist. Why would I expect differently with a WFB army? Or a 40K army for that matter?

Yeah but if Warhammer 2k was the big wargame you can be sure we'd be seeing a whole lot of SEAL/Delta/Spetnaz armies a not so many Wisconsin National Guard or Trinidad Self Defense Force armies. If players have to lay out $XXX or $XXXX in money and XX hours of time to play, we're going to want to play the coolest, most awesome, best.

Yeah there will be freaks who spend that time and money on conscripts, penal troops, cultists and grots, but don't begrudge the folks who want to play marines or Ice Warriors of Elsa. We're all nerds here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides...

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/

https://fireforge-games.com/

I do not think that anyone here is begrudging anybody else. If anything we all are begrudging GW for not giving us excactly what we want

Apart from personal preferences on how armies are supposed to feel and look, I always worry about the balancing side of things, seeing that GW is not exactly historically strong in this part of game design. I think an army organisation chart of yore or something similar with points brackets or just about any system that restricts the army composition in matched play really helps to make balancing the game easier. Then, even if one of the units is too strong, you will not see only this unit and nothing else.
The old T3 restriction system which was very extensive showed that it is possible to implement something like this. Although it was very restrictive and it would be great, if the balance allowed for more creativity in the lists.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:


If there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty nowadays it's that GW doesn't do restraint anymore. That "one" unit of Ice Spike Spike Icers will become the entire damn army in one fell swoop.


Okay, since we're down to mostly speculation and wishlisting, I'll throw in what I wish for more than anything: restrictions and structure in army lists. The US wouldn't send 50 Divisions of Delta Force to a battle; 50 Divisions of Delta Force don't even exist. Why would I expect differently with a WFB army? Or a 40K army for that matter?

Yeah but if Warhammer 2k was the big wargame you can be sure we'd be seeing a whole lot of SEAL/Delta/Spetnaz armies a not so many Wisconsin National Guard or Trinidad Self Defense Force armies. If players have to lay out $XXX or $XXXX in money and XX hours of time to play, we're going to want to play the coolest, most awesome, best.

Yeah there will be freaks who spend that time and money on conscripts, penal troops, cultists and grots, but don't begrudge the folks who want to play marines or Ice Warriors of Elsa. We're all nerds here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides...

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/

https://fireforge-games.com/

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to Unbound. The farther GW games move away from structure, the more imbalanced they become. Narrative players can always ignore FOCs, casual PUGamers suffer more when they are lackluster or missing.

But that's exactly the point I'm trying to make Morden - it has to be all those things, and as 7th went on and fed into 8th & ET, it began to cater only to the ZOMG EPIC APOCATASTROWORLDSHATTER BATTLE OF DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!1 end of the spectrum. You either showed up with the named megacharacters and deathstar units and supermagic and giant centrepiece models, or you might as well not have shown up. "Battle!" doesn't and shouldn't have to mean only the bigestest and most epicestest warbattles leik evar, there needs to be room in the system for people who want to make an army of Their Dudes themed around a local baron, or an everyday warboss going raiding, or a band of Dark Elf slavers raiding the coast of the Old World, or all the other forms of "mundane" war that make up 99% of the conflict in that world.

WHFRP provides for the full range of gak eating sewerjack to Mighty Epic Hero while ensuring people understand the latter are not the default, and WHFB used to provide for the whole spectrum of conflict from the everyday and typical all the way up to the possibly-apocalyptic while again not presenting that as the standard, but by its end only cared about the very biggest, grandest, most world-shattering, kingdom-ending, ultra-magical warfare because that was the only kind that could justify flogging people hundreds upon hundreds of troops and loads of giant expensive centrepiece models.

The reason so many people look to 6th as a system and as a fluff era is for us, they got that balance absolutely bang on - the system has the whacky fun stuff but in vaguely reasonable amounts by default, and then allows various ways players can choose together to ramp things up with bigtime named characters or themed army lists or supplementary campaign material; and the setting shows the full variety of character and conflict the world contains but presents it in a way that shows people the proper proportion of each individual thing contained in the whole. The default of the game system matches the default of the setting, and the choice to escalate above that is left in the hands of the players. As GW's poor choices began to kill it off, WHFB flipped that around, first by making the default of the game system match the most epic end of the setting, and then by even further ramping up the epic level of the setting to facilitate bigger & bigger and more & more OTT armies in the game, and in so doing they essentially removed the choice to do anything else since the game was balanced around players having all those superwizards and deathstars - 8th as a system was a buggy mess unless you played it at the intended big point value matches.

I'd second the motion for army restrictions. Actual army restrictions. Special forces elites are cool. And have their place. But their place shouldn't be in every game, spammed to the max.

Give me back the entire spectrum of battles. Not just the stupid over the top every day 24/7 jack-daddy elite forces that has been GW for over a decade now.

I've always been a proponent of different tiers of battle. Rules that let you say "this battle is going to be about the common soldier staving off an invasion of marauders, and each side gets a minor hero and maybe a unit of elites" and then have another tier that is "this battle is a massive zomg HULK SMASH" battle where you get more heroes and magic and monsters.

That way you can represent the entire spectrum and have official rules to do so. This caters to all play styles as opposed to just one playstyle while alienating everyone else.

Here's an article from an old White Dwarf about playing 'low fantasy' and 'middle fantasy' games in 7th Ed.

It provides overviews of what units from each race fit into which category, suggests rules for playing a Low Fantasy or Middle Fantasy game, describes some of the challenges involved, and provides sample army lists.

But it pretty much provides the framework for what Auticus is describing. From what I saw it looks like the lower the fantasy, the better for lower points levels- the 2K point 'low fantasy' Empire list was more models than I've painted in my life.

For me, the issue is less the presence of high fantasy elements, and more how games like AoS have reduced the requirement for the low-fantasy elements to support them. When no more than 25% of your points could be spent on Rare choices, you were not taking 5+ Steam Tanks in a single game, and you had to have a reasonably mundane core to your army.

Relaxing of force composition requirements makes it a lot easier to skew towards exclusively the high fantasy stuff, and removal of restrictions on named characters means extremely powerful, narrative-pivotal characters show up much more regularly. Those, I think, did a lot more to erase the 'low fantasy' style than the presence of high fantasy elements did.

 catbarf wrote:
Here's an article from an old White Dwarf about playing 'low fantasy' and 'middle fantasy' games in 7th Ed.

It provides overviews of what units from each race fit into which category, suggests rules for playing a Low Fantasy or Middle Fantasy game, describes some of the challenges involved, and provides sample army lists.

But it pretty much provides the framework for what Auticus is describing. From what I saw it looks like the lower the fantasy, the better for lower points levels- the 2K point 'low fantasy' Empire list was more models than I've painted in my life.

For me, the issue is less the presence of high fantasy elements, and more how games like AoS have reduced the requirement for the low-fantasy elements to support them. When no more than 25% of your points could be spent on Rare choices, you were not taking 5+ Steam Tanks in a single game, and you had to have a reasonably mundane core to your army.

Relaxing of force composition requirements makes it a lot easier to skew towards exclusively the high fantasy stuff, and removal of restrictions on named characters means extremely powerful, narrative-pivotal characters show up much more regularly. Those, I think, did a lot more to erase the 'low fantasy' style than the presence of high fantasy elements did.

I mean, it's sort of in the name, innit? They're called Rare choices, because they're supposed to be rare. But when you relax force-org so that entire armies can be just Rare- or Special Units, that flavor disappears - it's the difference between adding some nutmeg to spice up your food, and trying to cook an entire meal using nothing but nutmeg.

Lower model count.
More monsters.
More super powerful heroes.
Less having to paint boring core tax low powered models.
More wombo combo synergy play ala warmahordes.

Pretty much the war drum beat from 2008 on.

 auticus wrote:
Lower model count.
More monsters.
More super powerful heroes.
Less having to paint boring core tax low powered models.
More wombo combo synergy play ala warmahordes.

Pretty much the war drum beat from 2008 on.

Sounds like the roots of Warhammer. 4th and 5th edition Warhammer and 2nd edition 40k were like this (IMHO). Earlier editions are beyond my experience.

Don't get me wrong; I also do not want Hero Hammer back.

I hope they don't bring guess ranges back. If you are good at estimating ranges you were very accurate; if not then you were lucky to hit anything. I used to be so jealous of Goblin bolt throwers. Low cost and, in many situations, just as effective.

Yes I started in 5th edition whfb, and about shelved it because it was basically D&D played out in the warhammer world.

I feel like most people with nostalgia goggles here would be happier playing something else, like a pen and paper rpg or a historical wargame. See, the thing about classic fantasy warhammer was that it was literally every single fantasy trope thrown into one universe. The only exception is that unlike DnD all the factions were cartoon stereotypes of real world civilizations. WHFB has been as over the top as 40k has always been.

A group of archers manage to enchant their arrows.....and thats too much? Please.

 Don Savik wrote:
I feel like most people with nostalgia goggles here would be happier playing something else, like a pen and paper rpg or a historical wargame. See, the thing about classic fantasy warhammer was that it was literally every single fantasy trope thrown into one universe. The only exception is that unlike DnD all the factions were cartoon stereotypes of real world civilizations. WHFB has been as over the top as 40k has always been.

I don't think anyone has been denying that.

A group of archers manage to enchant their arrows.....and thats too much? Please.

Once again, I don't think anyone has been saying that either. Without going back to check over all the posts. People aren't against a unit like the Queens Royal Guard having magic ice arrows. It makes sense that the elite unit would have the best wargear.
What people don't want is when the whole army has magic ice arrows. And magic ice spears. And magic ice shields and magic ice codpieces and ice-magic on their ice cream... You get the point. When that starts to happen, we're just back in AoS and it's not WHFB anymore.

 Don Savik wrote:
I feel like most people with nostalgia goggles here would be happier playing something else, like a pen and paper rpg or a historical wargame. See, the thing about classic fantasy warhammer was that it was literally every single fantasy trope thrown into one universe. The only exception is that unlike DnD all the factions were cartoon stereotypes of real world civilizations. WHFB has been as over the top as 40k has always been.

A group of archers manage to enchant their arrows.....and thats too much? Please.

Most of us with nostalgia goggles would actually be happier playing.. (you didn't guess it!?!) Something resembling the thing we are nostalgic for!
Beyond the Empire and Brettonians I'm not sure it is so easy to map old factions to real world civilizations, nor am I sure that is the downside you seem to think it is..
Either way, the bulk of armies was made up of units using weapons and wearing armor that didn't require the "BuT iT's MaGiC!!!" defense be invoked.
That is what I want. If the previewed ice archers are a rare elite unit I'm totally fine with that. As long as the bulk of the kislev army is made up of guys using metal weapons (that won't melt on a warm day). Ditto their armor.

I'm not sure we will agree that was WHFB as silly as 40k has always been, but here is a question you can answer:
Don Savik, do you feel that current AOS is more, less, or the same amount of "over the top" as classic WHFB?

I've always vastly preferred low-fantasy. While the Old World was not explicitly low fantasy, it was far more prominent, and lent itself very well to that style. I always liked the idea of magic, and special creatures being rather rare amongst human forces, etc. The idea that orks and Chaos were boogey-men...that really existed.

Aesthetically, the old Mark of Chaos trailer is the best thing I've ever seen showing how hopeless a poor Empire recruit would be in that kind of world...but that's what's intriguing about it. I think it's the best CGI ever applied to a GW product personally.

 catbarf wrote:
Here's an article from an old White Dwarf about playing 'low fantasy' and 'middle fantasy' games in 7th Ed.

It provides overviews of what units from each race fit into which category, suggests rules for playing a Low Fantasy or Middle Fantasy game, describes some of the challenges involved, and provides sample army lists.

But it pretty much provides the framework for what Auticus is describing. From what I saw it looks like the lower the fantasy, the better for lower points levels- the 2K point 'low fantasy' Empire list was more models than I've painted in my life.

For me, the issue is less the presence of high fantasy elements, and more how games like AoS have reduced the requirement for the low-fantasy elements to support them. When no more than 25% of your points could be spent on Rare choices, you were not taking 5+ Steam Tanks in a single game, and you had to have a reasonably mundane core to your army.

Relaxing of force composition requirements makes it a lot easier to skew towards exclusively the high fantasy stuff, and removal of restrictions on named characters means extremely powerful, narrative-pivotal characters show up much more regularly. Those, I think, did a lot more to erase the 'low fantasy' style than the presence of high fantasy elements did.

Do you remember what issue that was from?

But I remember these debates playing out in WD, Jervis once had an article on his son picking Blood Angels solely on account of a special character and Jarvis concluding that special characters should be accessible all the time and not just opponent's permission.

After all GW games are these so we can have fun (and GW make money) not to be a documentary-like recreation of a world that never existed. It seems that the more restricted versions of either game should come from the players not GW. Otherwise we get into debates about whether Marines should ever be seen on the tabletop.