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**Ghaz**

... as posted by 'Wraithlord' on the AB40K Maintainers Forums

Alright guys, I got back from Gameday in Toronto and here is what I remember from my chat with Gav Thorpe concerning the new Chaos codex:

Codex will be 105-110 pages in size. This is due to rules layout and background along with an extended version of alternate colour schemes for CSM's that the GW crew have come up with.

Gav pointed out that the focus/feel of the codex will be more along the lines of Renegade SM's than just the 9 Legions previously. Fluffwise, the dev team feels that renegades would be in the majority as it is too much of a stretch to imagine that all CSM's are literally 10,000 year war vets.

The codex will be similar to the SM codex in that the undivided lists will be represented in full (similar to codex astartes chapters) with the cults represented in a manner similar to the craftworlds in the new Eldar codex, ie, if you want World Eaters, give everything the MoK.

GW is seriously considering making the 4 god specific cults into stand alone books along the lines of BA, DA, BT, and SW's. This WILL NOT happen any time soon nor is it actually in the works just yet, however, if GW decides to go with this for them there will be no conflicts with the upcoming codex, as the book is being designed with this very possibility in mind.

Defiler is going to be a fast moving CC monster now. Gav said that the guys on the dev team feel that the Defiler rules simply do not reflect what they originally envisioned it as (a Chaos Basilisk basically). The Defiler will have a quick movement mode and quite possibly both an improvement in armour along with a points reduction to make it more palatable to gamers. Gav -really- didn't want to say too much on this topic though so I got no more out of him on it.

"Thousand Sons players are going to be very happy". Direct quote from the man here. No real specifics as to the meaning of this but more to come on that in a minute.

One thing Gav talked about was the fact that the dev team deliberately sat down and figured out what exactly each of the Cults was supposed to be known for and how to achieve this rules wise. According to him, World Eaters are going to get even better in CC, Emperors Children will be shooty from hell, Death Guard are getting -significantly- tougher to kill (Gav's emphasis, not mine), and Thousand Sons are going to be somewhere between EC and DG with a massive focus on psychic powers.

Thousand Sons will still be crap in CC, however this will be countered by ungodly abilities for psychic powers and shooting ability. Gav mentioned that TSons will have god blessed bolter rounds and powerful spells, amoung other things, to offset this. Once again telling me that Tson players are going to jump for joy.

Oblits are moving to HS in order to prevent the IW cheese lists as well as to take Oblits out of competition with Terminators.

We are definitely losing the Chaos Armoury. All units will have a listing of the available armoury stuff they are allowed but the days of on single, all encompassing, armoury are long gone. Get used to this idea as Gav said that was pretty much laid in stone now.

I may have to break out the two boxes of Thousand Sons I have sitting in the back of my closet unopened once the new codex comes out.

**Da Boss**

So we may be looking at 13 MEQ lists and 7 non MEQ?
Ridiculous.

**AgeOfEgos**

Please, I pray to Khorne they make Zerks worth a hoot. I took them, but always to satisfy my fluff/fun, never to have a snowball chance in hell at winning.

**Zubbiefish**

We are definitely losing the Chaos Armoury. All units will have a listing of the available armoury stuff they are allowed but the days of on single, all encompassing, armoury are long gone. Get used to this idea as Gav said that was pretty much laid in stone now.

This is too bad. I like almost every other format change that they've been making but this.
It wouldn't be so bad if the options, or even most of the options, were still there just in a different form but that's not/won't be the case.

**nyarlathotep667**

Ugh. I agree. The removal of the Chaos Armory (and, I presume, Chaos Gifts as well) is utter and complete crap. This removal of options is a change for the worse as it only further strips down an already excessively dumbed down ruleset. Jesus, they couldn't write a decent ruleset if their lives depended on it.

**H.B.M.C.**

Posted By Ghaz on 05/06/2007 5:41 PM
The codex will be similar to the SM codex in that the undivided lists will be represented in full (similar to codex astartes chapters) with the cults represented in a manner similar to the craftworlds in the new Eldar codex, ie, if you want World Eaters, give everything the MoK.

Considering that there weren't any Craftworlds in the Eldar Codex, this fills me with dread.

Well, it means that our fears and suspicions have come true. You cannot play a Death Guard army or a World Eater army, you just take lots of a single choice and 'pretend' to be playing them.

And removing the Armoury? Idiots...

And of course they don't want Oblits competing with Terminators - they've got a nice new plastic kit to sell!!

BYE

**Jester**

I applaud the fact that GW is actually taking back its games from all you hideous rules exploiters, what with your exploitation of the rules to make the game more funner and easier to win at and all....

I don't know what will be worse: the gloating of the newly puissant 1kSons players, or the
b!tching of woefully nerfed IW players...

**ph34r**

I heard that any unit that is painted with caution stripes will take up a heavy support slot.

**Achilles**

Man, replace ''armoury'' with ''wargear cards'' and I'm pretty sure I heard the same thing like ten years ago...

I guess fashion isn't the only thing that's cyclical.

**Jester**

Posted By ph34r on 05/06/2007 8:41 PM
I heard that any unit that is painted with caution stripes will take up a heavy support slot.

Exalt.

**The Crawling Chaos**

Posted By Ghaz on 05/06/2007 5:41 PM

According to him, World Eaters are going to get even better in CC,

Who cares? They're already great at CC. That isn't the problem. The problem is that they run around blindly like chickens with their heads cut off. Address that and they'll be fine.

And as for the lack of wargear and different legions- lame, lame, lame.

**ether dude**

I'm a little scared as to what's going to happen with Tsons...I just finished putting 27 rubric termies together from GKTs...dang, that may have been a mistake...

**Moopy**

"Thousand Sons players are going to be very happy"

They'll have 3 wounds now?

**ph34r**

Any army with 3 wounds has got a lot (x1.5) going for it. Though they'll likely lower their toughness to 2 for instant death to balance it.

**Moopy**

That's fair.

**two heads talking**

Posted By Jester on 05/06/2007 8:32 PM
I applaud the fact that GW is actually taking back its games from all you hideous rules exploiters, what with your exploitation of the rules to make the game more funner and easier to win at and all....

I don't know what will be worse: the gloating of the newly puissant 1kSons players, or the
b!tching of woefully nerfed IW players...

best quote of the year.. cheers mate.

**stonefox**

So is KK going to start writing fanfics about the Tentacle Rape marines, the Fatty Gross marines, the confused furry Bull marines, and the Space Tomb Kings marines?

I applaud the fact that GW is actually taking back its games from all you hideous rules exploiters, what with your exploitation of the rules to make the game more funner and easier to win at and all....

Nice try, Jester! I would have been fooled except you included "funner" and "easier to win" in the same sentence. (Let me guess: ninjapirates exist?)

**Polonius**

Am I the only person a little concerned that they've decided to make the defiler "faster, so it's more like a chaos basilisk" along with "tougher, so it's more appealing to gamers?" 1) basilisks aren't fast. 2) Defilers are pretty popular. I just thought that was odd.

Hmm, I lament the loss of the armory. Hopefully, and this is with crossed fingers but no real hope, a restricted choice list means there will be tighter and more effective play testing and thus more accurate point values.

Also, a lot of codices have gotten by with severely limited or built in armories for years, and have done just fine. Eldar never had a deep armory, and only warlocks and seers could buy from it anyway. The IG armory is 80% stuff you'd never buy, 15% explanation of who exactly can buy what. "Power weapons are only for officers, commissars, priests, rough rider vet. sarges, stormtrooper vet sarges, hardened veteran veteran sgt, and techpriests." The other 5% gives the prices for bolt pistols, plasma pistols, the HOnorifica, and power weapons/fists.

Even more fitting, the tyranid codex has had build your own monsters for two iterations now. If you can build incredibly variant Fex's and Tyrants you should be able to build some interest Daemon Princes and Lords.

I'll admit, loss of variety is a loss to the hobbyist. Part of the joy of the Codex:CSM was that sheer cornucopia of choice. It's possible to capture at least most of that in a unit upgrade menu. Unlikely, but I'm going to wait until I see the new book before I worry too much. Of course, I don't have an extensively modeled/converted Chaos army that might get invalidated.

**Boss Salvage**

Gav pointed out that the focus/feel of the codex will be more along the lines of Renegade SM's than just the 9 Legions previously. Fluffwise, the dev team feels that renegades would be in the majority as it is too much of a stretch to imagine that all CSM's are literally 10,000 year war vets.

...

Defiler is going to be a fast moving CC monster now. Gav said that the guys on the dev team feel that the Defiler rules simply do not reflect what they originally envisioned it as (a Chaos Basilisk basically). The Defiler will have a quick movement mode and quite possibly both an improvement in armour along with a points reduction to make it more palatable to gamers. Gav -really- didn't want to say too much on this topic though so I got no more out of him on it.

Sadly, I have to give The Dev Team credit on the first bit about emphasizing the renegades + crazy elite ancient eevil nature of CSM as an army fluff-wise. I too had a bit of a hard time understanding how all of these 10,000 year-old CSM ran about dying like loyalists to keep lascannons and powerfists alive

I like defilers, and I'm interested in seeing what the fmek actually happens to the big spider walkers. I wonder if the battlecannon is being downgraded to a conquerer type gun - S7-8 AP3 small template, let's say. Would definitely deter hiding the beast or just using it to blast stuff, and if the points drop (!), downgrading the bc would make sense. It would also match the model a bit better, and I've actually modified the barrels on my defilers simply because it looked to short and tiny to be indirect or S8 ordnance.

- Boss Salvage

**Boss Salvage**

Posted By Polonius on 05/07/2007 7:36 AM
Am I the only person a little concerned that they've decided to make the defiler "faster, so it's more like a chaos basilisk" along with "tougher, so it's more appealing to gamers?" 1) basilisks aren't fast. 2) Defilers are pretty popular. I just thought that was odd.

Hmm, I lament the loss of the armory. Hopefully, and this is with crossed fingers but no real hope, a restricted choice list means there will be tighter and more effective play testing and thus more accurate point values.

I think the point was that defilers are used like chaos basilisks right now - they hide and shoot indirect, that's it. Your #2 point is good though, but again I think Gav meant more appealing to have your defilers run into the enemy guns (melta bombs, etc) if they're cheaper too. Thing is, suicide defilers are still competing for heavy slots like before, but now oblits are in there too.

I'm with you on the loss of the armory though.

- Boss Salvage

**stonefox**

They just want Defilers to be the new Dreadnoughts. You know, like the new black is pink (I think, at some point?). Or in WOW terms, greens are the new purples. This is good because while you might only have used dreadnoughts for CC before, you can now choose between dreadnoughts and defilers. They might do the exact same thing, but this creates variety. As we know from the IG, Tau, and Tyranid codices, putting more stuff to choose from makes people choose different things!

**Frazzled**

However, they'd really have to modify a defiler to make it worthy of a CC roll. The reason most play it indirect is that its slow, large, and vulnerable.

**Voodoo Boyz**

Unless the Defiler gets crazy fast (ie is a Beast/Calvary) or if it just gets fleet, then unless it's AV13 or something, it's going to somewhat suck. AV12 and it needs to be into CC to be effective?

With my as yet un-nerfed Marines would just go "lol Las/Plas" and watch it die. These things aren't that hard to drop.

Contrast that with the rumors on Oblits, and you can guess which one we'll be seeing more on the table; especially if Nurgle makes them straight up +1T. Double that if things like Havok's don't get a rule like combat squads and/or can't take Tank Hunters, and if Preds with Lascannons cost as much as the new DA ones do, and the Demonic Possession lowers the BS to 3 when shaken.

Hrmm, thinking about this are there some new Oblit models coming out?

Maybe they're just hoping people will buy lots of the Plastic Terminator kits and convert Oblits from that.

**Dice Monkey**

Gav pointed out that the focus/feel of the codex will be more along the lines of Renegade SM's than just the 9 Legions previously. Fluffwise, the dev team feels that renegades would be in the majority as it is too much of a stretch to imagine that all CSM's are literally 10,000 year war vets.

**nyarlathotep667**

Posted By ph34r on 05/07/2007 12:29 AM
Any army with 3 wounds has got a lot (x1.5) going for it. Though they'll likely lower their toughness to 2 for instant death to balance it.

Lies! I hear they were going to double the wounds but halve their toughness (and double their point cost). Cuz an army of figures with 4 wounds has even moar going for it.

Posted By Polonius on 05/07/2007 7:36 AM
Am I the only person a little concerned that they've decided to make the defiler "faster, so it's more like a chaos basilisk" along with "tougher, so it's more appealing to gamers?" 1) basilisks aren't fast. 2) Defilers are pretty popular. I just thought that was odd.

I agree, it is rather odd. Odd to the point that I'm wondering if Gav was misquoted or (if indeed a direct quote), perhaps proof that he and the rest of the dev team doesn't have the slightest clue about the game they are designing. More like a chaos basilisk? More appealing to gamers? What the hell, as if the Defiler is not these things already... That said, Boss's interpretation that they might want to make it more like a heavy armored dread with a Conquerer cannon isn't that bad, though my guess is they want to sell more of those hideous models and as such will only power up the thing even more.

As I said before, the loss of the armory + gifts will be slowed to the max. Unless, somehow, they manage to put a mini-armory in each and every character (independent or not) entry. Even then it's going to be a major loss of options and variety, which are the very stuff of chaos. Ugh. Time will tell, but it don't look so good.

**Anung Un Rama**

so, nothing about Hordes von Pleauge Zombies in the new book?.....damn.....

**Toreador**

I think the actual statement was more along the lines of "the defiler is too much like a chaos basilisk right now so needs to be faster"

**Schepp himself**

Just a question thrown in: What do you guys would think about a wound characteristic on the Defiler?
At least it's survivability won't be a huge problem any more.

Other than that: Making Chaos more renegady = yay! Making Chaos armoryless = nay

Greets
Schepp himself

**Ghaz**

A little more from Wraithlord on the subjects of Defilers and individual codices, this time from Warseer:

He said that it will still have guns but they specifically did not want it to be a basilisk defiler as that did not fit with how they had envisioned it. No hint at all as to what guns it would have but everything he said about the Defiler pointed towards a rampaging daemonic machine bent on pulping the enemy up close and personal. Granted, that was my impression of what he was saying so ordnance weapons may still be a possibility, I just didn't get the impression that it will be the preferred method of use in the new codex. Personally, I love the idea as I utterly HATE the Defiler as it is in a big way.

One other thing I remembered was that he did say that all units will be markable for the most part, going so far as to mention Khorne Raptors and Tzeentch Oblits as possibilities.

As far as the idea of separate codices for the cults goes, don't start getting too excited about it yet. He said outright that there are no actual plans to do so at the moment, just that it is a possibility in the future and the new dex is being written with that in mind. According to him, the dev team don't really like the way the cults are represented in the current codex with only a couple of pages for all the fluff and wargear in total. The Undivided legions will work well in this format due to the fact that they are all fairly similar (along the lines of the current SM chapters covered by that codex, having different traits to distinguish them) but the cults themselves could be more descriptive at the least. That is where the entire idea of the separate books comes from. However, Gav pointed out that if GW were to do this after all, it won't happen for a long time as "we have other books we have to do first".

**Voodoo Boyz**

Don't think they want to give MORE monsterous creatures to Chaos. If there's one thing they don't need to do is make ChaosZilla a reality. Besides, aren't they already getting spawn?

BTW, you guys are playing like Message Board Telephone. The quote about the Chaos Basalisk went like this: "Gav said that the guys on the dev team feel that the Defiler rules simply do not reflect what they originally envisioned it as (not a Chaos Basilisk basically)."

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82885

Basically they made the defiler (in the fluff and model wise) look like this really nasty demonic machine hell-bent on rampaging on the enemy. But rules wise everyone just took it as a 175 Point Chaos Basalisk that did nothing but do indirect shelling all day. They obviously weren't happy about that and want to change it.

Problem is that AV12 CC Walkers aren't that great of an idea, but if they're cheap enough I can see them being taken in 3's for CC support for an army or something. I dunno, it'll take some work.