Black Library News & Rumours Thread III, that awkward third title.

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**Manchu**

More gaking on fans. The only thing that really bothers me is that I'm still surprised.

**H.B.M.C.**

What happened in Outcast Dead?

**BrookM**

A massive chronological cock-up involving Magnus doing his thing.

**H.B.M.C.**

Please more details than that.

**Pacific**

It centres around Magnus sending his psychic warning to the Emperor after the Dropsite Massacre has occured, and news of this has already reached Terra. This is the central premise of the book and the cause of events which follow.

Essentially there are a load of plebeians at the start walking around saying "Oi, you 'eard Horus might be on his way here?" (I imagined Terry Jones from Monty Python, dressed as a peasant lady reading those lines in his high-pitched voice), meanwhile in a tower of glass and ivory Magnus has spent months creating the most powerful spell ever known to tell the Emperor what everyone in the galaxy already knows. That's if you take the events in the story at face value.

This is lifted from another forum, probably the most succinct summary of the mistakes in that book.

Fairly obviously, it conflicts with the old Index Astartes version of events, where the Emperor refused to believe that Horus could be a traitor.

It conflicts with the Collected Visions version, which introduced the destruction wrought on the Imperial Webway project. The message is recieved before the Emperor is aware of Horus' treachery, and it has the Emperor lamenting the damage Magnus' has caused well before the Heresy becomes known.

It conflicts with False Gods - Horus mentions Russ is on his way to Prospero and has been convinced (by Horus) to kill rather than imprison Magnus - this is before they even go to Istvaan, so well before the Heresy becomes public.

It conflicts with Galaxy in Flames - early on it is mentioned that Russ' campaign against Prospero is underway (although no news has reached Horus' fleet), once again before the traitors gather in the Istvaan system.

It conflicts with Fulgrim - Fulgrim recieves the news that Russ has been sent to Prospero at the time Horus is waging war on the Technocracy.

It conflicts with A Thousand Sons - Magnus contacts Horus aetherically while Horus is on Davin - and then decides to cast the spell to warn the Emperor. While the timescale in between the two events isn't explicitly mentioned, it seems fairly shortly afterward the spell is cast, whereas well over a year passes between Horus falling on Davin and his treachery becoming known at Istvaan (the war with the Technocracy lasts over 9 months alone). And what is said about the communication between the Emperor and Magnus makes no mention of the Emperor already being aware of the Heresy, surely something that would impact on Magnus (i.e. that his warning, that caused so much damage on Terra, was already known to the Emperor).

It conflicts with Prospero Burns - there is no mention of Horus' rebellion being known to the Wolves, and Russ states (while on the way to Prospero) that Magnus' message (i.e. that Horus is a traitor) is absoloutely inconcievable, and that Magnus' message is part of a campaign of disinformation.

It even clashes with The Outcast Dead itself - the Thousand Son is imprisoned as a traitor before Magnus' message is recieved, when the Thousand Sons (should) still seen as loyal.

So I'm finding it really rather hard to see how hte whole thing works. Obviously, communication via the Warp is subject to delays and so on, but Magnus' message is personally passed on by Magnus himself, and there's no mention of the spell taking over a year to cast! An astropathic communication might take this long to travel through the warp, but certainly the spell as described in ATS seems to be fairly instantaneous. And I can't quite see how Russ can be mentioned in the first trilogy as being on his way to Prospero well before Magnus' message is even sent... or how he can be manipulated by Horus into killing Magnus if Horus' treachery is already widely known when the Wolves are dispatched to Prospero.

So, I'm struggling to see how it can be rectified, other than with the mother of all "but a wizard did it" story-lines. In which case you may as well just have them all wake up, and have Bobby step out of the shower.

I think better to just leave it as is, rather than draw attention to it with further (presumably Tzeentch-based/alternative timeline stories) - it's a shame as the rest of the Outcast Dead is a pretty good read. The scene in particular where the World Eater is sat on a wall with a kid towards the end of the book and is awkwardly trying to start a conversation with him I thought was one of the finest bits of writing to come from Graham McNeil.

**BrookM**

Graham is bad at keeping the time lines neat. It's funny, how most of the other novels referenced also by him.

He can't even keep it straight with his own other work.

**Temujin**

I said at the time that the best thing to do about it was just pretend it never happened. I'm not going to pay for a novel length attempt to deny what everyone knows was a ridiculous cock up.

**Harriticus**

Manchu wrote:
More gaking on fans. The only thing that really bothers me is that I'm still surprised.

Pretty much, blaming the fanbase for their own failures.

HH series is lacking in sales because they're not progressing it, it's just limited edition novellas, audio dramas, and anthologies by this point. Have something about the Siege of Terra with a big dramatic picture of the Imperial Palace being besieged, and I assure you it'll see a big sales boost.

**Alpharius**

Manchu wrote:
More gaking on fans. The only thing that really bothers me is that I'm still surprised.

Agreed - and that sums it up nicely for me as well...

**Just Dave**

I didn't think it was that bad a comment, personally...

As a thought, would it be unreasonable for them to right the core of the HH (like the stuff that's really, really important, such as Calth, Signus, Istvaan, Prospero, 'Vulkan Lives', Siege of Terra etc.) now - as we all know the jist of what happens and then flesh it out a bit more, with less relevant stories, like Outcast Dead and the novellas etc. being released after the main part's done?

That said, I've just looked at the (full-length) novels so far released for the HH series (on wikipedia) and IMHO the vast majority are all pretty damn relevant to main storyline. To be clear though, I'm not a fan of all the limited edition novella stuff they seem to be doing either...

**Compel**

Outcast Dead had about 10 pages that were actually relevant and not annoying.

Nemesis had a handful of scenes on Terra that were worthwhile.

Battle for the Abyss not only was badly written but also was so completely generic that all you would have needed to do was replace the 1000 Sons character with a Blood Raven and it would have been a 40k story.

The Dark Angels stories, Legion, The Primarches and the general plot of Angel Exterminatus could be argued to be tangents to me. Although I suppose a few are well written tangents

**Harriticus**

Just Dave wrote:
I didn't think it was that bad a comment, personally...

As a thought, would it be unreasonable for them to right the core of the HH (like the stuff that's really, really important, such as Calth, Signus, Istvaan, Prospero, 'Vulkan Lives', Siege of Terra etc.) now - as we all know the jist of what happens and then flesh it out a bit more, with less relevant stories, like Outcast Dead and the novellas etc. being released after the main part's done?

That said, I've just looked at the (full-length) novels so far released for the HH series (on wikipedia) and IMHO the vast majority are all pretty damn relevant to main storyline. To be clear though, I'm not a fan of all the limited edition novella stuff they seem to be doing either...

I'd classify Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, Fulgrim, Legion, Mechanicum, Fallen Angels, Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, First Heretic, Deliverance Lost, Know No Fear, and Fear to Tread "relevant" and wouldn't have cut them even if I could (though I think Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns could have been combined into a longer bool). I agree though that they should finish the Heresy first then flesh it out later, people are getting annoyed and impatient with how the series has grinded to a halt in favor of limited edition drama/audio BS.

**praetor24**

If HH was done in a 5-books series, people would start raging that they did not do justice to such a monumental event of the 40k history. Now, that they are fleshing out HH and provide also a background for this, people are once again complaining that BL is delaying in purpose to make money. It turns out that it more than true to satisfy the Internet.

I am sorry to break you the news guys, but blaming BL for making money by publishing more new books is like blaming GW for making money by releasing more new minis. I mean after all no-one forces you to buy all the books in the HH series. If you think that some of the novels in the series are not relevant to what YOU want to read about HH, then it's simple: do not buy them. Or better: read the Index Astartes articles. Short, to the point and not "ruining" the established fluff.

As for me, I am happy to give BL my cash as long as they release new HH novels. As I am equally happy to get stories not related to the main story arc, since I believe that this is the only way to make more "real" what otherwise would be an endless narration of battles.

**H.B.M.C.**

I don’t think they need to finish the Heresy, I just think they need to keep it moving forward. Don’t endlessly backtrack to what X character did at the Drop Site Massacres or give us snippets of something unrelated. Have a through-line plot that goes from A to B to C and so on.

I hate to use this comparison, but they really should be doing it the way the SW EU novels did it. There were basically two streams for those novels (and the few comics that factored into the main story line):

1. Main story-line books – This is everything from Courtship of Princess Leia through to the most recent core books. They tell the story of the main characters (Luke, Leia, Han, etc.) and (more recently) the offspring of the main characters.
2. The side stories – these are the stories that fleshed out the universe, everything from the Rogue Squadron series to stand-alone’s like I, Jedi.

Now not all these books were good (Children of the Jedi nearly put me into a coma it was so boring), but there was a definite purpose behind them (Children of the Jedi introduced Kallista, and she was important over the next two books). If you wanted to read about the main characters and their story, you stuck to the core novels. If you just wanted to look at various random bits of the SW universe, you looked at the books that fleshed out the universe. And if you wanted both, you did both.

The two things are not mutually exclusive, and I get this odd feeling that the typical affliction of ‘Great Concept/Terrible Execution’ doesn’t just apply to GW’s rules...

**Azreal13**

praetor24 wrote:
If HH was done in a 5-books series, people would start raging that they did not do justice to such a monumental event of the 40k history. Now, that they are fleshing out HH and provide also a background for this, people are once again complaining that BL is delaying in purpose to make money. It turns out that it more than true to satisfy the Internet.

I am sorry to break you the news guys, but blaming BL for making money by publishing more new books is like blaming GW for making money by releasing more new minis. I mean after all no-one forces you to buy all the books in the HH series. If you think that some of the novels in the series are not relevant to what YOU want to read about HH, then it's simple: do not buy them. Or better: read the Index Astartes articles. Short, to the point and not "ruining" the established fluff.

As for me, I am happy to give BL my cash as long as they release new HH novels. As I am equally happy to get stories not related to the main story arc, since I believe that this is the only way to make more "real" what otherwise would be an endless narration of battles.

Nobody with any basic understanding of the real world will begrudge BL a profit from the Heresy. In fact it's essential they do in order to justify further books and the completion of the series.

The issue I am beginning to have is that there is a fine line between maximising your profits and exploiting your consumers.

I don't mind contributing to a company's profits if they produce a product I like and enjoy.

I refuse to be exploited.

**Pacific**

Compel wrote:
Outcast Dead had about 10 pages that were actually relevant and not annoying.

Nemesis had a handful of scenes on Terra that were worthwhile.

Battle for the Abyss not only was badly written but also was so completely generic that all you would have needed to do was replace the 1000 Sons character with a Blood Raven and it would have been a 40k story.

The Dark Angels stories, Legion, The Primarches and the general plot of Angel Exterminatus could be argued to be tangents to me. Although I suppose a few are well written tangents

Compel, you are always free to just skip stories and pick up the next one that says 'THE FINAL BATTLE' or 'EMPEROR PWNS HORUS' on the cover?

I personally really enjoyed reading the books you've listed. As ADB says in that article, they all helped to flesh-out the universe so we are seeing more than the same set of characters over and over again, and leading to the whole thing feeling contrived. Nemesis reminded you of the wider battle going on, of the different actors in the event all trying to push for their own side to win. BftA (aside from having an extremely cool World Eater character) described the divides that already existed between the legions before the Heresy kicked off. The Dark Angel books again are the only books to focus on a world before the coming of the Imperium, and the formation of that Legion (something that it is essential to know in terms of what will happen to them concerning their eventual schism). And finally, I have to be honest that is the first time I have heard anyone describe Legion as being not really necessary.

In short, I'm not really seeing much 'Lost' style padding to make an extra season or 5 here yet. No doubt that BL are getting a great deal more mercenary with their limited editions and just the sheer mass of releases now (which, I have to be honest, I've kind of given up with trying to keep on top of) but for the most part it is still the most exciting hotbed of imagination that is coming out of BL these days - the only area where there is still some scope for ideas to be formed (rather than just re-treading already known events in the 40k universe) and I hope they do make the most of it, rather than feel obliged to skip to the final page just because of a few (very loud) impatient fans. I mean, what are we going to get afterwards? The full events of the Macharian Crusades?

azreal13 - regarding the hardbacks issue, I've heard it implied that it's something that was forced on BL (by some kind of publishing industry body?) Shame, it was fun while it lasted..

**Azreal13**

Well Pacific, if you get more info on that, would be interesting to hear.

However, I don't really think that it being forced on them by the book mafia really has legs on first consideration!

No matter, I have a book shelf full of HH novels in paperback, and will continue to do so, once this initial break is dealt with, the gap between books should remain constant anyways.

**reds8n**

http://guyhaley.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/the-death-of-integrity/

As I mentioned earlier this week, the cover for The Death of Integrity was revealed on Amazon a while back. Here it is, and very nice I think it is too. The warrior in the Terminator Armour is none other than Chapter Master Caedis of the Blood Drinkers, and yes, he’s chopping up a Genestealer.
The Death of Integrity is a Space Marines Battles book from the Black Library. It’ll be out next September (more or less), and features both the Novamarines and the Blood Drinkers. In the story, the two chapters scour a space hulk named, you guessed it, The Death of Integrity, so it’s kind of an unofficial Space Hulk book too. Cool eh? There’s plenty of goodies in there for Space Marine fans, not least the detailing of two whole chapters, low-g combat, and some other exciting elements that it would be a shame to reveal right now (and my lords and masters would send a Callidus assassin disguised as my dog to kill me). Still, ask yourself why Caedis is not wearing red. It’s not as straightforward as you might think…

The book’s currently with the editors, so it’s close to being locked and loaded to be shot out of the big publishing lascannon for the end of next summer. It’s a long time away, no? Clever-clogs might realise that my Blood Drinkers short story, ‘The Rite of Holos’, is a prequel to the novel, so if you fancy reading about these lesser-known scions of Sanguinius taking apart a Genestealer cult in the meantime, it’s in Hammer and Bolter 24.

I can recommend heartily his "Richards and Klein" books, enjoyed them very much.

The advent stories continue to roll out, kinda tempted by the McNeill/Ahriman and French/Warmaster ones..

.. from Sunday's blog entry..

Sometimes a character’s journey ends in a single story and leaves you wanting more. That’s how L J Goulding felt about Angeloi of the Scythes of the Emperor. He took this opportunity to share his story with us:

[u]With a Scythes of the Emperor novel on the way,[/u] I've been waist-deep in continuity research of late, making sure that I don't contradict anything that's gone before. Richard Williams wrote about Sergeant Angeloi in the excellent Orphans of the Kraken - this guy (Angeloi, not Richard) was a dedicated, loyal Scythe who survived the tyranids' attack only to see his Chapter humbled by the play-it-safe actions of Chapter Master Thracian. For speaking out, he was sent off to join the Deathwatch.

And that's where his story ended. Except it didn't.

I love Deathwatch stories - Space Marine special forces, sticking it to the xenos foes of the Imperium (with varying degrees of success) is always a recipe for an exciting tale. One thing I wanted to look at here is the differences between the warriors themselves, all being from different Chapters and having their own traditions and so forth.

Angeloi's not the star of the show, but he certainly makes his point. He didn't ask for this posting, and he's being as polite as possible about going for an early bath. Will we hear from him again? Who knows... the galaxy is a big place.

.. be quite interested to see what they can do with them, Mr. William's tales were superb, shame they can't get him to do more.

**Manchu**

In the quotation posted by Just Dave, Aaron Dembski-Bowden basically says "we'd like to do interesting books but the fans object." That's nonsense. If the books are interesting, the fans will not object. You know, unless they are interesting AND overpriced/delayed/impossible to get/etc.

Let's also keep in mind: the HH series is a huge success not so much because of the artistic brilliance of the authors as because the HH itself is so crucial and yet so mysterious. When the BL authors do their standard jobs on non-crucial events, the success will naturally dip. Just compare sales of the HH line with sales of the rest of the BL line.

**Compel**

Pacific wrote:

Compel, you are always free to just skip stories and pick up the next one that says 'THE FINAL BATTLE' or 'EMPEROR PWNS HORUS' on the cover?

Part of my post was playing devils advocate. Except for the Battle for the Abyss section, I really do find that book to be terrible.

**Manchu**

Did you ever wonder why the Imperium didn't just send some of those badass assassins to kill Horus? The answer is, relative to real life, because he didn't die that way. And did you ever wonder why Horus didn't just send his own ultra-badass assassin to kill the Emperor? Again, because the Emperor didn't die that way.

So Nemesis ends up being a book about things we know did not happen not happening. I think this is what is meant by padding.

That said, I enjoyed the book quite a bit.

**kronk**

I found it to be an interesting look at the assassin guilds, but they could have put that story in any part of the 30k to 40k timeline. Like an assassins super team sent to kill Huron during the Badab war.

It wasn't my favorite book, nor the worst, but it really didn't do anything for the HH series.

**Manchu**

kronk wrote:
it really didn't do anything for the HH series

Exactamundo. What it did was get another foil-letters-on-black-background paperback to the bookstore shelves.

I'm not saying "BL has no right to make money." I am saying, this really isn't about fans denying BL the chance to tell the HH saga in its proper scale.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, does anyone have any information on the Nick Kyme HH book this piece is supposed to be the cover for?

**KamikazeCanuck**

Manchu wrote:
Just compare sales of the HH line with sales of the rest of the BL line.

What is the comparison?

**BrookM**

Manchu wrote:
Also, does anyone have any information on the Nick Kyme HH book this piece is supposed to be the cover for?

IIRC, two Salamanders trying to find out about their Primarch during the direct aftermath of the Istvann massacre, I think, so don't quote me on that.

**d-usa**

That is one Orky looking Space Marine helmet...

**alphaecho**

Manchu wrote:
kronk wrote:
it really didn't do anything for the HH series
Exactamundo. What it did was get another foil-letters-on-black-background paperback to the bookstore shelves.

I'm not saying "BL has no right to make money." I am saying, this really isn't about fans denying BL the chance to tell the HH saga in its proper scale.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, does anyone have any information on the Nick Kyme HH book this piece is supposed to be the cover for?

The title could be "Vulkan Lives"

Temujin posted a list of upcoming books a couple of pages back.

**Manchu**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Just compare sales of the HH line with sales of the rest of the BL line.
What is the comparison?

I'm assuming you mean, what is the result of such comparison? HH books end up on the NYT Best Seller list. Space Marines Battles books don't. I don't see a gap in quality between them (mostly), either.

**Alpharius**

Manchu wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Just compare sales of the HH line with sales of the rest of the BL line.
What is the comparison?
I'm assuming you mean, what is the result of such comparison? HH books end up on the NYT Best Seller list. Space Marines Battles books don't. I don't see a gap in quality between them (mostly), either.

That pretty much sums it up.

And it is obviously what drives the HH 'marketing' and sales points too!

**Manchu**

Just to be clear, that wasn't supposed to be a dig at the SMB or HH books. I enjoy them both. But I don't think the quality of writing is what makes a HH book a best seller and a SMB book not. I'm reading The Siege of Castellax right now and I think it's at least as good if not better than most of the HH books I've read.