Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**ThePorcupine**

Thunderbolt is 40 points more than a vendetta, yes, but it ups vendetta's 6 shots with 14 shots of its own at bs3+ to vendetta's 4+, and more survivability on top of that. It's ridiculous.

8 shots of S7 AP-1 2D

2 shots of S9 AP-3 D6

4 shots of S8 AP-2 D6

**Aenarian**

ThePorcupine wrote:
Thunderbolt is 40 points more than a vendetta, yes, but it ups vendetta's 6 shots with 14 shots of its own at bs3+ to vendetta's 4+, and more survivability on top of that. It's ridiculous.

8 shots of S7 AP-1 2D

2 shots of S9 AP-3 D6

4 shots of S8 AP-2 D6

Oh, I never noticed the BS3+. That should probably get an errata, otherwise yes, it's a bit ridiculous. Same for Lightning and Avenger, with them getting strafing run if necessary (as they are strike fighters).

**MinscS2**

MaxT wrote:

Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.

This is offtopic, but I didn't know Eldars 4th Ed. Codex was considered OP during 5th Ed?

**vipoid**

MinscS2 wrote:
MaxT wrote:

Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.

This is offtopic, but I didn't know Eldars 4th Ed. Codex was considered OP during 5th Ed?

Yeah, it was in only in 6th that Eldar got silly. I don't remember Tau being complained about much in 5th either but I could just have forgotten.

**vonjankmon**

Aenarian wrote:
ThePorcupine wrote:
So I dunno if this has been covered in this thread yet, but I miss veterans. All I see is either conscripts or scions.

Can someone give me pros and cons of veterans vs scions?

<edit> Also, the forge world index errata did not change anything about the thunderbolt as far as I can see. Means it's gonna stay a baller borderline OP death machine.

Both have BS3+, but the Scions have Sv4+ as well. Veterans can take 3 special weapons, 1 heavy weapon and 1 heavy flamer, while Tempestus Scions can take 2 special weapons per five or 4 per command squad. Veterans are 60 points for a squad with lasguns, and Tempestus are 36/45 for a command squad/scion squad respectively. Scions also have deep strike, but needs their own Tempestor to get orders compared to Veterans who can use normal officers.

The benefits of veterans are that they are cheaper per model (although more expensive per unit) and have more possible weapons.
The benefits of Tempestus Scions are that you can get the units cheaper, giving you more special weapons per point spent (if we're doing command squads, less if we're talking normal scions). They also have the crucial deep strike rule, which means they can always strike first and likely at something vital.

So the problem with veterans are that they don't have a good way to get into the fray as quickly as Scions. Need to get rid of a model quickly? Veterans have to slog over there while Tempestus can actually just enter the fight where they are needed. If you want Veterans to move quickly, you have to buy an expensive transport, doubling the unit cost. I think this is one of the main reasons people don't use them, as well as the aforementioned higher weapons density on Scion Command Squads. Sure, Veterans fit better in a normal gunline, but then you could just use normal infantry who cost 2/3 of the Veterans without weapons and spend the rest on heavy weapons teams or other cool stuff.

The Thunderbolt is devastating yes, but it costs 190 points in its basic configuration, with Hellstrikes and Skystrikes making it 80/90 points more expensive. A Vendetta is 230 points and about as effective as its trades autocannons for lascannons. The Thunderbolt should also suffer the -1 to hit from using heavy weapons and moving.

I haven't seen much discussion on Vendetta's for 8th edition. Is there a general consensus on them yet? They're pricey but have more wounds than a Russ does. Thinking they may be worth it to just sit in hover mode and blaze away but will have to play with them a bit to determine that because 230 points is not a small investment.

**DoomMouse**

Elysian veterans might be a good half-way point between vets and scions. Ten men deep striking with three plasma guns and a bolter (for the sergeant) is 92pts I believe. Their lasguns can rapid fire when dropped which is an advantage they have over hot shots. I think they compare pretty favourably against a similar points investment in plasma scions.

**Smotejob**

DoomMouse wrote:
Elysian veterans might be a good half-way point between vets and scions. Ten men deep striking with three plasma guns and a bolter (for the sergeant) is 92pts I believe. Their lasguns can rapid fire when dropped which is an advantage they have over hot shots. I think they compare pretty favourably against a similar points investment in plasma scions.

Plasma Elysian drops do really well. I have been experimenting with this set up deep striking in...
Elysian commander
Elysian command with 4 plasma
2 vet squads with 3 plasma and plasma pistol
Elysian officer of the fleet.
Vulture

Officer of the fleet gains deep strike from being an Elysian so he can come in with that package and not be the closest model and still give targeting making a vulture 3+ on the move and 2+ if sitting still.

**Aenarian**

vonjankmon wrote:

I haven't seen much discussion on Vendetta's for 8th edition. Is there a general consensus on them yet? They're pricey but have more wounds than a Russ does. Thinking they may be worth it to just sit in hover mode and blaze away but will have to play with them a bit to determine that because 230 points is not a small investment.

Compare them with a few other units! You can get about 9 heavy weapons teams for the same price (216 v 230 points), or a Leman Russ Annihilator with hull lascannon and multi-melta sponsons (232 points) or 3 Rapier Laser Destroyers, or any kind of units. The Vendetta has 6 lascannons compared to 9, 3+2 MM and 3 Laser Destroyers respectively. A lascannon is about the same as a multi-melta, so it would beat the Annihilator (6 v 5 weapons, more wounds but less toughness, faster movement, transport capacity). A single Laser Destroyer is a bit more than twice as good as a single Lascannon (but has a chance to utterly destroy a vehicle with its 3d6 damage on a "6" and seriously cripple when with 2d6 on 3-5), but it has shorter range and less flexibility in its movement, though you could spread them around. And the HWS beat everything in damage, but have the toughness of a wet noodle.

Another unit is the Manticore battery. You could have two of those, each with 4 Manticore Missiles (equal to a one-shot lascannon). You only get 8 shots, but you could frontload them and deal some hefty damage. Or good old heavy artillery, since an Earthshaker is just a bit worse than 2 Lascannons but has more flexibility in its preferred targets.

So I would say that a Vendetta definitely has its place.

**Lemondish**

MaxT wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
luke1705 wrote:
SkuzlBuTt wrote:
Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?

They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently

It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(

Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.

You're preaching to the choir. I've been trying to get the closest group to me to start allowing it, largely because the models are super cool and the swift release of erratas and FAQs were supposed to address anything that could clearly be considered a mistake, but they're not really budging on those things. Alas, it isn't important so much anymore - I enjoy the group any way and I don't have much choice. I'll just do as they wish and abuse Scions since they can play a similar style to Elysians

Smotejob wrote:
DoomMouse wrote:
Elysian veterans might be a good half-way point between vets and scions. Ten men deep striking with three plasma guns and a bolter (for the sergeant) is 92pts I believe. Their lasguns can rapid fire when dropped which is an advantage they have over hot shots. I think they compare pretty favourably against a similar points investment in plasma scions.

Plasma Elysian drops do really well. I have been experimenting with this set up deep striking in...
Elysian commander
Elysian command with 4 plasma
2 vet squads with 3 plasma and plasma pistol
Elysian officer of the fleet.
Vulture

Officer of the fleet gains deep strike from being an Elysian so he can come in with that package and not be the closest model and still give targeting making a vulture 3+ on the move and 2+ if sitting still.

Did I miss some change to Officer of the Fleet? I thought they only allowed rerolls of 1s, not +1 to hit.

**Smotejob**

Lemondish wrote:
MaxT wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
luke1705 wrote:
SkuzlBuTt wrote:
Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?

They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently

It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(

Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.

You're preaching to the choir. I've been trying to get the closest group to me to start allowing it, largely because the models are super cool and the swift release of erratas and FAQs were supposed to address anything that could clearly be considered a mistake, but they're not really budging on those things. Alas, it isn't important so much anymore - I enjoy the group any way and I don't have much choice. I'll just do as they wish and abuse Scions since they can play a similar style to Elysians

Smotejob wrote:
DoomMouse wrote:
Elysian veterans might be a good half-way point between vets and scions. Ten men deep striking with three plasma guns and a bolter (for the sergeant) is 92pts I believe. Their lasguns can rapid fire when dropped which is an advantage they have over hot shots. I think they compare pretty favourably against a similar points investment in plasma scions.

Plasma Elysian drops do really well. I have been experimenting with this set up deep striking in...
Elysian commander
Elysian command with 4 plasma
2 vet squads with 3 plasma and plasma pistol
Elysian officer of the fleet.
Vulture

Officer of the fleet gains deep strike from being an Elysian so he can come in with that package and not be the closest model and still give targeting making a vulture 3+ on the move and 2+ if sitting still.

Did I miss some change to Officer of the Fleet? I thought they only allowed rerolls of 1s, not +1 to hit.

Nope misread it is what I did. Still going to keep it in for the volume of shots that a vulture puts out.

**argonak**

What are people's thoughts on Primaris psykers? My last game I played my old space marines for fun however, and I was quite impressed with my Librarian.

Astropaths are just so cheap however, and their cover removing ability seems really useful.

34 points for a Primaris versus, 15 points for a Astropath. . .

**Colonel Cross**

Primaris have their place, if you need a way to get mortal wounds in your army. But Astropaths are seriously good. I think 2 is the magic number of them, if placed apart can create a massive deny bubble and both can remove cover to 2 separate enemy units while also generating 2 different powers. I prefer barrier and gaze.

**KestrelM1**

argonak wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Primaris psykers? My last game I played my old space marines for fun however, and I was quite impressed with my Librarian.

Astropaths are just so cheap however, and their cover removing ability seems really useful.

34 points for a Primaris versus, 15 points for a Astropath. . .

I just use whichever one I have the force org slots for - Primaris make good cheap HQs fillers if you don't need more orders. ~~Also, don't forget to pay for their melee weapons - you have the base costs a bit off.~~

I just noticed the Astropath can trade his melee weapon for a Laspistol... so you actually have that correct. That really makes the Primaris a hard sell in comparison. I'd lean toward the Astropath unless you really need the HQ slots.

**Aesthete**

Yeah Primaris Psykers are 40 pts all in iirc. I think they're a perfectly fine HQ choice if you need one and don't want another commander.

**Smotejob**

Just thought of this... don't know if it has been covered. A chimera full of primaris psykers for smite spam. Or just walking behind a squad of conscripts. That's a lot of cheap and pretty reliable smiting.

Each turn 10 could, with their powers combined, pull down a storm Raven. They can't be targeted. Costs 400 points.

**Glitcha**

Smotejob wrote:
Just thought of this... don't know if it has been covered. A chimera full of primaris psykers for smite spam. Or just walking behind a squad of conscripts. That's a lot of cheap and pretty reliable smiting.

Each turn 10 could, with their powers combined, pull down a storm Raven. They can't be targeted. Costs 400 points.

You can't cast psykic powers from inside the chimera. See embarked section of BRB.

**Unit1126PLL**

Glitcha wrote:
Smotejob wrote:
Just thought of this... don't know if it has been covered. A chimera full of primaris psykers for smite spam. Or just walking behind a squad of conscripts. That's a lot of cheap and pretty reliable smiting.

Each turn 10 could, with their powers combined, pull down a storm Raven. They can't be targeted. Costs 400 points.

You can't cast psykic powers from inside the chimera. See embarked section of BRB.

So cast it from outside? The idea is still sensible, since the psykers literally cannot be targeted.

**daedalus**

This is the reason why the game has been bonkers post 5th ed FOC.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
83% of the powers go off. 8 smites on average.

6-7 of those will do a d3 mortal.
1-2 of those will do a d6 mortal.

You're looking at about 20 or so mortal wounds in one turn from that squad. Of course, then you have to keep them alive to do it again, but I could see them making up their points pretty easily.

**KestrelM1**

daedalus wrote:
You're looking at about 20 or so mortal wounds in one turn from that squad. Of course, then you have to keep them alive to do it again, but I could see them making up their points pretty easily.

That's assuming that the closest target is the big, shiny thing you want to zap, and not just an opposing squad of Conscripts. It also doesn't factor Deny, but I don't think you'd lose more than 2 Smites at most to that.

It's definitely a cute, oblique counter to small footprint armies, like Knights or Stormravens. But in most cases your opponent will have a lot of control over what you are able to Smite. Probably worth trying out, though.

**daedalus**

I agree, you wouldn't lose more than two or so. Gk would be the only thing that would reasonably counter the majority of smites.

Thing is that if you can keep them alive, they're going to start ripping through about anything.

From the thread whining about conscripts, you'd think 20 wounds on conscripts is amazing for 400 points. That's still a devastating unit against a mech or elite list.

**Unit1126PLL**

I think this is taking advantage of the fact that a huge chunk of your army (and combat power) can be in characters, and those characters are literally untargetable given certain easily-met conditions.

**KestrelM1**

daedalus wrote:
That's still a devastating unit against a mech or elite list.

Definitely. A lot of armies don't have the luxury of having "throwaway" units to get in the way. The best part is that if you're bringing Conscripts anyway, you'll naturally want to include Commissars, and that will help immensely in preventing chain reactions from Perils of the Warp. I will definitely have to try it out sometime.

**Unit1126PLL**

KestrelM1 wrote:
daedalus wrote:
That's still a devastating unit against a mech or elite list.

Definitely. A lot of armies don't have the luxury of having "throwaway" units to get in the way. The best part is that if you're bringing Conscripts anyway, you'll naturally want to include Commissars, and that will help immensely in preventing chain reactions from Perils of the Warp. I will definitely have to try it out sometime.

Even 'throwaway' units will melt though. 20 wounds per turn isn't nothing, even on conscripts. And the psykers can do it while in melee and before shooting.

**DoomMouse**

Detachments are going to be an issue if you're thinking of bringing 10 of them. (Assuming tourneys are limited to three or something)

**daedalus**

DoomMouse wrote:
Detachments are going to be an issue if you're thinking of bringing 10 of them. (Assuming tourneys are limited to three or something)

If it's three then you go two supreme command. You get up to two extra elite and/or Lord of War units and +2 command points.

At that point, you get one for whatever you want, and it's guard, so it's hilariously easy to make yourself a brigade. Really, if you wanted to, you could drop one of the supreme commands if you didn't want any HQs other than Psykers.

**argonak**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think this is taking advantage of the fact that a huge chunk of your army (and combat power) can be in characters, and those characters are literally untargetable given certain easily-met conditions.

And yet they can also be targetable given certain easily met conditions, and ours are squishy.

My ratlings would love to have an enemy astropath get in range. Most armies have decent snipers already, and I would expect the codexes to fill out that overtime to everyone.

**daedalus**

I want everyone to swap out their conscripts for infantry squads in your next game. I know not everyone is going to do that, but humor me. Do whatever you want to them in the process, and support them as makes sense. Let us talk about how they perform. I want this knowledge for the conscript thread.

**SonsofVulkan**

In the FW FAQ:

Elysian Drop Troops Army List
"Change the final sentence of the first paragraph to read: ‘Models that have the Aeronautica Imperialis keywords on their datasheets replace them in all instances with Elysian Drop Troops."

Which means Officer of the Fleet's Strafing Coordinates ability will affect all Elysian drop troopers. So basically your Elysian officers don't even have to use the Take Aim order but the Bring it Down one instead. This is pretty powerful that you can re-roll hits and wounds of 1s on whatever priority target.

**Colonel Cross**

daedalus wrote:
I want everyone to swap out their conscripts for infantry squads in your next game. I know not everyone is going to do that, but humor me. Do whatever you want to them in the process, and support them as makes sense. Let us talk about how they perform. I want this knowledge for the conscript thread.

I have already played a game with only infantry squads and artillery. It was devastating. I ran out of heavy weapons to stick in squads so had quite a few obj snatchers as they only had meltas or flamers in them. It took forever to move that many troops. I mean, I had to have had over 200 models on the board that game.

**vipoid**

daedalus wrote:
I want everyone to swap out their conscripts for infantry squads in your next game. I know not everyone is going to do that, but humor me. Do whatever you want to them in the process, and support them as makes sense. Let us talk about how they perform. I want this knowledge for the conscript thread.

Personally, I use infantry squads instead of conscripts anyway. I much prefer being able to take special and heavy weapons. Also, I find it much more useful to have many 10-man squads rather than one or two 50-man squads. Gives me much more flexibility in terms of deployment and movement, and also allows my squads to screen each other.

So far, I've found them to be very effective.