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 Chris521 wrote:
I wouldn't have expected it to stack anyway. I think the real difference is that it now only works for infantry and sabres.

Yeah, that's pretty significant too.

It's still pretty useful, but less of an "clearly super awesome" choice than previously.

Are Vets worth taking in chimeras in a russ heavy list? Or is it better just to use cheap regular infantry squads?

Also Im seeing a lot of praise for HWS/HWT. They dont seem to have changed much since last edition, why are they better now? Autocannons still the go to loadout for them?

Leman Russ Conqueror is now 3 points more expensive than a regular LRBT . Still seems like a straight upgrade for a non command LR.

 Billagio wrote:
Are Vets worth taking in chimeras in a russ heavy list? Or is it better just to use cheap regular infantry squads?

Also Im seeing a lot of praise for HWS/HWT. They dont seem to have changed much since last edition, why are they better now? Autocannons still the go to loadout for them?

From what I've read here, people tend to be really into Mortar teams because the bang-for-point ratio is very very good (in point costed games, much less so in PL). People are also talking up lascannons because it's the heavy hitter. I don't think Autocannons are terrible, but the mathhammer says they're no longer the most-points-efficient-always-useful guns they were in 7th.

 Billagio wrote:


Also Im seeing a lot of praise for HWS/HWT. They dont seem to have changed much since last edition, why are they better now? Autocannons still the go to loadout for them?

Because they're much cheaper, and are now a heavy slot and doesn't require a infantry platoon for each.

in 7th a HWS with 3 Lascannons was 105 pts and a HWS with 3 Autocannons was 75 pts.
Now a HWS with 3 Lascannons is 72 pts and a HWS with 3 Autocannons is 57 pts

Some people also like to spamm HWS with Mortars at 27 pts per squad. Especially nifty for the Heavy Support-detatchment if you want some cheap command points.

Was thinking of running some death korps grenadies 5 man squads in chimeras with 2 meltaguns each, but my question is, how many melta is too much? I have 3 chimeras so i could fit 6 5 man squads in them, that would be 12 meltaguns that hit on 3+, overkill or just right?

With the FAQ the grenadies also got the option to take twin heavy stubbers as a special weapon, and can also separately from the special weapons take a heavy flamer team, which seem kind of a waste on bs 3+ models.

Big change also to artillery is that they're targeted as a single unit so you're either going to have to do a bunch of drops to separate them out or they all get focused down without any sort of split fire from your opponent.

Markerlights are still awesome. They just never should have stacked in the first place. Now I only need 6 instead of 9

Did the forge world FAQ NOT fix the elysians plasma guns? I hear they are still damage three...

 DoomMouse wrote:
Did the forge world FAQ NOT fix the elysians plasma guns? I hear they are still damage three...

They did fix them. Guess that's what happens when you get your information from the word on the street instead of straight from the horse's mouth

 luke1705 wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Did the forge world FAQ NOT fix the elysians plasma guns? I hear they are still damage three...

They did fix them. Guess that's what happens when you get your information from the word on the street instead of straight from the horse's mouth

No they didn't fix them. They only fixed the Plasma Pistol, but the Plasma Gun still does 3 damage when overcharged. Maybe you should get your information from the FAQ itself and not some equine mouth.

EDIT: Added smily to prevent confusion

I stand corrected. Thought they changed both. Reading comprehension is a tough life skill to master. As is reading internet tone apparently. No need to get any feathers ruffled over toy soldiers.

Wonder if that's an oversight or intentional. Can't really think of a reason why Elysian Plasma would be more powerful, but only if it comes out of the plasma guns...

I really don't know how they managed to miss it. Elysians aren't supposed to have super-plasma in the fluff are they? I'd not play it that way way if I were using Elysians personally, it just seems like a bizarre difference!

Agreed. If I were to play Elysians (Catachans all the way!), I'd have played it like that pre-FAQ. Post FAQ? Seems unintended to me

Gotcha, thanks for the responses about HWS


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Against MEQ, do you think it would be better to bring a manticore or ~2 wyverns? The higher strength on the manticore would be nice but you dont get as many shots...

Since it doesn't look like it's been linked here yet, here's the FAQ for reference: https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/40K_8th_ed_Update_Imperial_Armour_Index_Forces_of_the_Astra_Militarum_ver_1.0.pdf

 luke1705 wrote:
I stand corrected. Thought they changed both. Reading comprehension is a tough life skill to master. As is reading internet tone apparently. No need to get any feathers ruffled over toy soldiers.

It was intended as a joke, no feathers were ruffled. Guess you weren't wrong about the difficulty of reading (or conveying) internet tone.

 Billagio wrote:
Gotcha, thanks for the responses about HWS


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Against MEQ, do you think it would be better to bring a manticore or ~2 wyverns? The higher strength on the manticore would be nice but you dont get as many shots...

A Manticore is 133 vs 186 for two Wyverns. Purely against infantry, I would expect the Wyverns to perform better. You have twice the amount of (main) shots per vehicle, same chance to hit, only a little worse to wound against T4 and better versus T3. The Storm Eagle does bring the Sv3+ to a Sv5+, so you'll kill 2 out of 3 instead of 1 out of 3, but the Wyverns 4d6 vs 2d6 shots makes this more or less equal. So if we're only talking about T4 W1 Sv3+ infantry or worse, one Wyvern is only slightly worse than a Manticore and about 40 points cheaper. As such, two Wyverns will be the better choice, especially considering that you get almost twice the durability and can fire more than four shots.

However, if you actually expect to fight anything other than T4 infantry and don't feel confident in your ability to fight vehicles, I would bring a Manticore.

Manticores and Wyverns are for totally different things:

Anti-horde options:

Wyvern
Taurox Prime
Vulture
Quad Mortar
Guardsmen
etc

Anti-armor/elite infantry options:
Manticore
Basilisk
Earthshakers
Super Heavy Tanks
etc

You can use one for the other in a pinch, but its very inefficient. Pile on wounds > big armor modifiers

The "oversight" on the drop troopers plasma guns could be a move to sell more models

 sumi808 wrote:
The "oversight" on the drop troopers plasma guns could be a move to sell more models

TBH I really don't see that as a motivating factor for them. If it were, you'd see awful units becoming a lot better much more regularly. I honestly think the reason why they make bad units playable is so that people will enjoy playing with them. Just watch their play through video for Deathwatch Overkill. Like that's all that's on their mind. It's nice because it has a side-effect of making the unit better competitively too.

Nah, I'm sure what happened is they noticed they screwed up the plasma pistol, but were in such a hurry to squeeze this FAQ in between the first and second rounds of Space Marine FAQs that they didn't realize they had copy-pasted the same mistake over to the plasma gun.

So it's still a typo.

Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?

SkuzlBuTt wrote:
Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?

They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently

 luke1705 wrote:

SkuzlBuTt wrote:
Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?

They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently

It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(

Lemondish wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

SkuzlBuTt wrote:
Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?

They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently

It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(

I don't want to get up on too much of a soapbox but if I were you, I'd play the models I enjoy playing. Don't let anyone tell you you're having fun wrong. (Unless your fun makes it no fun for them. Then maybe you do need to reassess)

I would honestly just play the Elysians with 2 damage plasma. Then no one can complain on any grounds.

For what it's worth, when I put together my tournament imperial guard list, it included exactly two Forge World models - 2 vultures. And if I had to stray away from those and take 3 Taurox Primes instead, the sky isn't falling. My point being: you can take undercosted units from both GW and forge world. People who rag on Forge world are people whom I would like to play with GW only units and show them that banning Forge World units solves exactly nothing about OP units. And almost every "error" that wasn't immediately obvious has already been erratad and/or FAQ'd. People are always going to look for complaints and excuses about why they're a bad general and keep losing.

-snip-

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

SkuzlBuTt wrote:
Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?

They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently

It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(

Luke is wrong, fixed and reverted to 2 damage as of yesterday's FAQ

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/15/new-and-updated-forge-world-faqs-july16gw-homepage-post-2/

That errata is for the plasma pistol. The damage for the plasma gun has not been corrected.

Lemondish wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

SkuzlBuTt wrote:
Quick question, elisian plasma guns still have 3 dmg per shot, am i right?

They do. Some people are speculating that this is a mistake that they failed to fix, but that is what the rules say they do currently

It's a pity. I was really banking on them getting these types of things fixed quickly with the swift errata, or at least address it in the FAQ. My local meta is really against FW largely because of these errors, the undercosting of many super strong units, and the belief that it's all pay to win rounding out the stigma. I can't do much about it, so I guess I either decide the expensive elysians I ordered are normal GW stand ins, or I return em :(

Did your meta ban Tau and Eldar for the past 3 editions? Because if they didn't they're just hypocrites. Nothing in any 8th book, FW or otherwise is close to the under pointing and rules abuse in those codexes.

So I dunno if this has been covered in this thread yet, but I miss veterans. All I see is either conscripts or scions.

Can someone give me pros and cons of veterans vs scions?

<edit> Also, the forge world index errata did not change anything about the thunderbolt as far as I can see. Means it's gonna stay a baller borderline OP death machine.

ThePorcupine wrote:
So I dunno if this has been covered in this thread yet, but I miss veterans. All I see is either conscripts or scions.

Can someone give me pros and cons of veterans vs scions?

<edit> Also, the forge world index errata did not change anything about the thunderbolt as far as I can see. Means it's gonna stay a baller borderline OP death machine.

Both have BS3+, but the Scions have Sv4+ as well. Veterans can take 3 special weapons, 1 heavy weapon and 1 heavy flamer, while Tempestus Scions can take 2 special weapons per five or 4 per command squad. Veterans are 60 points for a squad with lasguns, and Tempestus are 36/45 for a command squad/scion squad respectively. Scions also have deep strike, but needs their own Tempestor to get orders compared to Veterans who can use normal officers.

The benefits of veterans are that they are cheaper per model (although more expensive per unit) and have more possible weapons.
The benefits of Tempestus Scions are that you can get the units cheaper, giving you more special weapons per point spent (if we're doing command squads, less if we're talking normal scions). They also have the crucial deep strike rule, which means they can always strike first and likely at something vital.

So the problem with veterans are that they don't have a good way to get into the fray as quickly as Scions. Need to get rid of a model quickly? Veterans have to slog over there while Tempestus can actually just enter the fight where they are needed. If you want Veterans to move quickly, you have to buy an expensive transport, doubling the unit cost. I think this is one of the main reasons people don't use them, as well as the aforementioned higher weapons density on Scion Command Squads. Sure, Veterans fit better in a normal gunline, but then you could just use normal infantry who cost 2/3 of the Veterans without weapons and spend the rest on heavy weapons teams or other cool stuff.

The Thunderbolt is devastating yes, but it costs 190 points in its basic configuration, with Hellstrikes and Skystrikes making it 80/90 points more expensive. A Vendetta is 230 points and about as effective as its trades autocannons for lascannons. The Thunderbolt should also suffer the -1 to hit from using heavy weapons and moving.