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I feel like the antlers would get in the way of the bear biting stuff.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Bear with me....



Should be released for Kislev, unless there’s a claws in the development contract....

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/11/old-world-update-bearsgw-homepage-post-4/?utm_source=CUSTOMERS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=GW_11th_May_Armoured_Bears_ENG&utm_content=&utm_term=_&m_i=G3e1fMXe9GdxDiSc0NdwklOGYMmFv_aBLk0GZGN_UtGk1KvM3a5KleViY3uis6Av72t_CB6387eWJztcJ3Jun1uBV_JOG6

Now that's more like it!



I endorse this product/idea/service.

Looks like that Bear from the Golden Compass, which is definitely a good thing. Could also be one of the Bears pulling the White Witch's chariot from Lion, Witch & Wardrobe...which is something I'd love to make!

Shout out to the suggestion for use in Frostgrave.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I feel like the antlers would get in the way of the bear biting stuff.

Was my first thought too. If it makes it to the final model will probably be separate bits though. So you could swap them to the opposite sides to try having them point back away from the face or just leave them off.

 Just Tony wrote:
So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?

Damn it, I guess all I can hope for now is balanced play and rank and flank combat. I'll not be getting rid of my 6th Ed. books, though. Something about this has my confidence pretty low.

Although I understand the End Time aversion, most of the monstrous cavalry stuff was brought out during the run of 8th itself, some of it long (say 3-4 years) before the End Times was even a rumour.

The rules for monstrous variations of infantry, cavalry and beasts was present at the very start. I suspect this is because Ogres and Tomb Kings were some of the first books and armies to be done and Ogres got their Mornfang cav and TKs got their snake riders/snake gazer beasts. Also the stomp rules that gave some extra killing power to these, as well as thunderstomp for monsters. Although the janky cannon rules usually made a mockery of most monsters outside of some of the tougher TK ones and the infamous Frostheart phoenix.

If I recall correctly, the main End Times models were the Nagash one, the three Mortarchs (Neferata, Mannfred and Arkhan) and the morghasts. Everything else 'End Times' was world-killing fluff and game-killing rules (Khaine magic rules I'm looking at you).

The Rotbringers (Glottkin, BKs, Maggoths) Thanquol and Stormfiends and the updated Bloodthirster were also part of it (going from memory)

 Wunzlez wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?

Damn it, I guess all I can hope for now is balanced play and rank and flank combat. I'll not be getting rid of my 6th Ed. books, though. Something about this has my confidence pretty low.

Although I understand the End Time aversion, most of the monstrous cavalry stuff was brought out during the run of 8th itself, some of it long (say 3-4 years) before the End Times was even a rumour.

The rules for monstrous variations of infantry, cavalry and beasts was present at the very start. I suspect this is because Ogres and Tomb Kings were some of the first books and armies to be done and Ogres got their Mornfang cav and TKs got their snake riders/snake gazer beasts. Also the stomp rules that gave some extra killing power to these, as well as thunderstomp for monsters. Although the janky cannon rules usually made a mockery of most monsters outside of some of the tougher TK ones and the infamous Frostheart phoenix.

If I recall correctly, the main End Times models were the Nagash one, the three Mortarchs (Neferata, Mannfred and Arkhan) and the morghasts. Everything else 'End Times' was world-killing fluff and game-killing rules (Khaine magic rules I'm looking at you).

The Skaven got the Stormfiends as well

I've seen "bear cavalry" mentioned before in relation to Kislev, but I didn't realize until now they weren't actually something they already had, outside of 1 character. Will be interesting to see what else gets added, so far it doesn't seem like there's been much that doesn't seem to fit in with the lore (based on what the WFB RPG had) to some extent.

 Just Tony wrote:
So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?

What do you mean by this? I only know of some WHFB from near the end, what sort of Monstrous Cavalry wasn't there before that?

 Just Tony wrote:
So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?

Tuomas Pirinen wrote an army list for Kislev in Citadel Journal 15 ('96). One unit were the Sons of Ursa. Yes - Knights riding War-bears. And all of the characters could ride Great Bears (these were even better).

The Kislev Warmaster army had Heroes on Bears

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?

Tuomas Pirinen wrote an army list for Kislev in Citadel Journal 15 ('96). One unit were the Sons of Ursa. Yes - Knights riding War-bears. And all of the characters could ride Great Bears (these were even better).

They also had bear cavalry in Warmaster back in 2000 (with models)

And when the pamphlet came out with Storm of Chaos in 6th, while it didn’t have rules for bear cavalry, the ‘Eavy Metal example army had a unit of bear cavalry on it (on monster bases).

IIRC at the time everyone bitterly complained about the lack of a bear unit.

If they had made a proper army back in 2001 instead of a 3 unit and 1 character (plus two SCs) pamphlet it would almost certainly have had bear cavalry. There was a precisely zero chance GW would do Kislev without them now.

NB just had a read over my Kislev pamphlet - the blade of Tzar Boris’s (the dude in the bear in the WarCom pic) spear was made of ice by ‘ice wizards’.

I was fully expecting bear cavalry, and I don't actually mind them that much compared to something like Demigryphs because they're you know, bears. They're not some ridiculously rare, ridiculously dangerous magical beast that the faction inexplicably has loads of, they're animals, and importantly for suspension of disbelief they're animals that have been trained IRL. Extending that idea to training them to be mounts is a difference of degree, rather than category, and it's that difference that most of the objectionable additions made in increasing frequency from 7th Ed onwards didn't respect.

However I'm much less sanguine about the ice spikes. Yes, yes, it's "only" concept art, but it's concept art they've elected to show us so I don't expect the design will evolve all that much. I can only hope that the icicle-armour version is for a named character or otherwise rare, expensive, and hard-limited to a max of one per army model, but I have an awful suspicion that it isn't and we're going to get magic-ice-styled alt builds for most of the new units.

Regardless though, it's still not what I want to know about TOW. What I want to see are the *basics*, the foundations, the poor bloody infantry and their slightly better off horse riding compatriots. I want some indication that the Warhammer Fantasy I remember is in this thing somewhere.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Regardless though, it's still not what I want to know about TOW. What I want to see are the *basics*, the foundations, the poor bloody infantry and their slightly better off horse riding compatriots. I want some indication that the Warhammer Fantasy I remember is in this thing somewhere.

Oh, that's what I want to see too. Well, I hope they're just showing the more, well, 'exotic' concepts first. Would make some sense regarding 3rd party miniatures, especially at this stage of development.

Why would they bother showing that stuff when we've seen it all before?

We know what The Old World had. We know what the Empire was, we know what Bretonnia was, yadda yadda yadda. Kislev's getting fleshed out. If you don't like it, wait until we get closer to the game's actual release in 3-4 years.

I can totally get behind bear riders for Kislev.

Sure as hell wouldn't want to stand in front of them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would they bother showing that stuff when we've seen it all before?

We know what The Old World had. We know what the Empire was, we know what Bretonnia was, yadda yadda yadda. Kislev's getting fleshed out. If you don't like it, wait until we get closer to the game's actual release in 3-4 years.

Yes, we know what the Old World had. People want confirmation that it still has it.

It's called "The Old World", not "Age of Sigmar".

Safe bet is to assume that it will have it, no?

SamusDrake wrote:
Looks like that Bear from the Golden Compass, which is definitely a good thing. Could also be one of the Bears pulling the White Witch's chariot from Lion, Witch & Wardrobe...which is something I'd love to make!

Shout out to the suggestion for use in Frostgrave.

You've just pointed out the exact problem with it. It's so indistinctive it could be from all or any of those. It has no distinctive features to call its own.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Wunzlez wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?

Damn it, I guess all I can hope for now is balanced play and rank and flank combat. I'll not be getting rid of my 6th Ed. books, though. Something about this has my confidence pretty low.

Although I understand the End Time aversion, most of the monstrous cavalry stuff was brought out during the run of 8th itself, some of it long (say 3-4 years) before the End Times was even a rumour.

The rules for monstrous variations of infantry, cavalry and beasts was present at the very start. I suspect this is because Ogres and Tomb Kings were some of the first books and armies to be done and Ogres got their Mornfang cav and TKs got their snake riders/snake gazer beasts. Also the stomp rules that gave some extra killing power to these, as well as thunderstomp for monsters. Although the janky cannon rules usually made a mockery of most monsters outside of some of the tougher TK ones and the infamous Frostheart phoenix.

If I recall correctly, the main End Times models were the Nagash one, the three Mortarchs (Neferata, Mannfred and Arkhan) and the morghasts. Everything else 'End Times' was world-killing fluff and game-killing rules (Khaine magic rules I'm looking at you).

The Skaven got the Stormfiends as well

 Eldarain wrote:
The Rotbringers (Glottkin, BKs, Maggoths) Thanquol and Stormfiends and the updated Bloodthirster were also part of it (going from memory)

You're right, I think I just blanked those from my memory.

Edit: Oh! The Khorne infantry as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's called "The Old World", not "Age of Sigmar".

Safe bet is to assume that it will have it, no?

No.

GW is ultimately in the business of selling miniatures, so while it would certainly be nice if they produce a game that is fully compatible with everyone's existing collections, it won't be at all surprising if the armies are all completely redesigned to sell new minis, as happened with Necromunda.

Until GW confirm one way or another, people are going to continue to ask for confirmation about their armies.

Then I guess I'll continue saying this: It's something like two or three years out. They're showing something that we haven't seen before they get to the stuff that is likely to be unchanged.

You want to know what Empire stuff looks like? Click the "Freeguild" tab in Age of Sigmar.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then I guess I'll continue saying this: It's something like two or three years out. They're showing something that we haven't seen before they get to the stuff that is likely to be unchanged.

Yeah, but I'm not sure why you feel the need to say this. We know they're showing stuff we haven't seen before, on account of not having seen it before.

That does nothing to assuage the concerns of people who want to know if they are going to be able to use their existing collections in the new game.

Because if someone can fill this thread with complaints about "I don't care until I see things I've already seen/know that my stuff I already own is in there", I can reiterate my statement that this is early days and they're showing us stuff that's actually a bit more interesting than just "Hey look, here's an Empire guy! He looks like...an Empire guy!".

I get that people want to "know if they are going to be able to use their existing collections in the new game"...but given that we still don't even know when this new game is coming? It seems a bit unreasonable to be expecting any kind of confirmation of what's in the game to be out there. We know that this game is supposed to be set during the time of Magnus, that's about all.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Looks like that Bear from the Golden Compass, which is definitely a good thing. Could also be one of the Bears pulling the White Witch's chariot from Lion, Witch & Wardrobe...which is something I'd love to make!

Shout out to the suggestion for use in Frostgrave.

You've just pointed out the exact problem with it. It's so indistinctive it could be from all or any of those. It has no distinctive features to call its own.

Yeah they should have covered it in swirly gak instead, much more distinctive.

Here's the thing - they don't actually even need to show pics of the old models, or the new versions of the old models, if that's the direction they're going. All it would take to stop the complaints is a simple 'Hey, the game is still two or three years away, so some stuff isn't locked down yet, but our goal is to make the game as compatible as possible with people's old WHFB armies. There may be some things that won't work in the new game, but if you have an old WHFB army you should generally be able to adapt it to the new game without too much trouble!'

And then carry on showing new stuff.

It's the uncertainty that is bugging people, and no amount of 'But this is the new stuff!!!' is going to change that. Yes, the game is still a while away, but if they're actively working on it, they already know what their design goals are for it.

Sure, they could totally do that...and then when plans change down the line the crowd that's raining on everyone else's parade right now will crow about how "SEE, THEY NEVER WERE GOING TO MAKE IT THE OLD WORLD! THEY JUST WANT TO SELL US CRAP!".

There's no reason for them to limit themselves just yet for what their plans are.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Sure, they could totally do that...and then when plans change down the line the crowd that's raining on everyone else's parade right now will crow about how "SEE, THEY NEVER WERE GOING TO MAKE IT THE OLD WORLD! THEY JUST WANT TO SELL US CRAP!".

There's no reason for them to limit themselves just yet for what their plans are.

If they're two to three years way from release, they're not going to just suddenly change whether or not they're completely redesigning all of the armies.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I was fully expecting bear cavalry, and I don't actually mind them that much compared to something like Demigryphs because they're you know, bears. They're not some ridiculously rare, ridiculously dangerous magical beast that the faction inexplicably has loads of, they're animals, and importantly for suspension of disbelief they're animals that have been trained IRL.

Yeah. Demigryphs... didn't blend well for me. Bear mounted hero, or even rare bear cavalery unit? Blends much better.

I don't even give a crap about other armies for the moment. I just want to know what the new versions of Kislev stuff I remember and wanted as a kid look like ffs. They can showcase as much daft high magic ice malarkey as they want, I can always just not buy it, I just want to know if they're going to deviate from the existing aesthetic for the basic units I actually plan to buy if they're good.

I'm more interested in the units that should be making up ~90% of my potential Kislev army than the snowflake(aha) stuff, sue me.

That was @Kan, btw. I should really start quoting folk again when replying threads move too quick for my old fingers.

Dryaktylus wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

What I want to see are the *basics*, the foundations, the poor bloody infantry and their slightly better off horse riding compatriots.

Well, I hope they're just showing the more, well, 'exotic' concepts first. Would make some sense regarding 3rd party miniatures, especially at this stage of development.

Despite the boom in historical plastics the last few years, GW still has that head start and produces very nice figures when they do it sober. Not to mention the whole scaling and proportion issue. Sometimes you can substitute historicals into your WFB army. Sometimes you want to see what GW makes, first. And see how removable the cow horns are.

Kanluwen wrote:the crowd that's raining on everyone else's parade right now

Not for the first time: this is not about you.

As long as we get Tomb Kings in plastic again, I will buy an army immediately