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Okay, this is intended to be a thread on how GW can update the existing Codex: Imperial Guard to make it both more competitive (I think the general consensus is that IG is an army at the bottom end of the power scale) and in keeping with the current Codex output.

 

That last statement is important – it’s not enough just to say what we want or think would work for IG, we have to consider GW’s current approach to Codex-writing and take into account their guiding principles.

 

That said, here’s my thoughts:

 

Firstly, in presentation terms, the book pretty much stays as it is. The only big difference is it needs to be a lot thicker, more page count, so GW needs to add some more fluff. No big problem as they can simply reprint a load of the Regiments of Renown stories from old issues of White Dwarf.

 

The Cadian sprues are still excellent and not that old, so they stay as the mainstay army, although they would obviously get a load of new releases and other armies would be given equal attention (see my above thoughts on Regiments of Renown). There wouldn’t be so much emphasis on Cadian minatures as there is right now (it’s about 75/25 right now, when it should be about 60/40 and of that 60 only 25% should be actual “Cadians&rdquo .

 

As for the rules, the first thing that has to go is the Doctrines. Personally, I love ‘em, but it’s just not what GW is about recently (and besides, let’s face facts, most of them are pants). So we’ll throw the doctrines out of the window. Don’t panic though, as they are only gone in spirit.

 

 

 

 

HQ

 

The HQ is kept pretty much the same. The system works well at present. The only changes I’d make are:

 

Advisors: Commissars and Priests are reduced to 25 points each. Sanctioned Psykers remain at their cheap 12 points cost but instead of a random psychic power you can select one and pay a cost, as per every other Codex with psychic powers.

 

In addition, all Advisors can be independent, not just Commissars, at the additional cost of 10 points. This makes them much more valuable (and replaces the Independent Commissars doctrine), and the idea of attaching a Commissar and a Priest to a large Conscript Platoon is appealing.

 

ELITES

 

There’s plenty of choices in the Elites section, so nothing needs to be added. However, I would remove the restriction on any of the unit selections number (i.e. Veterans are no longer 0-1, everything is 0-3).

 

Veterans would be split into Combat Squads (yes, I know that rule only applies to Space Marines but the way GW are going...). You can take 3 Special Weapons in a squad of 5, and only take a Heavy Weapon in a squad of 10. This matches the way GW seems to be thinking lately and how most people use Veterans (suicide squads of 5 with maxed-out Plasma/Melta or large squads with Lascannons). Everything else remains the same (i.e. they still get Infiltrate for free, etc.).

 

Ogryns need some serious help. It’s difficult to know what to do with them, however. I’d up their Armour Save to 4+ to begin with. Maybe give them FNP instead or the ability to ignore insta-kill.

 

Stormtroopers also need help, but this is much easier. No one (well, almost no one) takes Stormtroopers because Veterans can do everything they can do, better and cheaper. Easy solution = allow Stormtroopers to Infiltrate and Deepstrike for free instead of paying for the benefit (gives the player more options) and allow them to do so even if the mission does not allow it.

 

Ratlings are ok, although I still don’t see why anyone would take them.

 

Techpriests are the same. They’re not broken, but don’t need to be fixed either.

 

TROOPS

 

Troops are kept exactly the same as they are now. Nothing wrong with them.

 

FAST ATTACK

 

I’d like another Fast Attack choice, preferably two. The Salamander Scout vehicle is a good choice. All of the other Fast Attack choices are fine as they are, although I’d like to see the Hellhound drop a few points in cost (maybe 100?).

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

Again, I’d like more options than just four. I’d add in some of the Leman Russ variants or maybe the Griffon Mortar to make things different.

 

SPECIAL CHARACTERS

 

We’d lose Gaunt and Yarrick. Yes, I know the Gaunt’s Ghosts novels are hugely popular but there are no miniatures for the army (well, there are, but there’s no support and not a complete range). Yarrick’s had his day.

 

To replace them, we’d bring in a Catachan special character (Iron Hand Straken?) and another army specific new character (that one for Tallarn that has a great miniature but no rules, maybe?).

 

We’ll keep Creed (he’s a good generic Cadian hero) and Schaeffer (the Last Chancers are always cool).

 

-----

 

As for other stuff, I’d also up the Grenade Launcher in power while keeping the price the same. Maybe make the Krak grenade AP3. A small push, but suddenly it’s an attractive weapon option. It can kill MEQs just like a Plasmagun, but it’s cheaper and doesn’t overheat. However, on the downside it’s less effective against vehicles and can’t scratch Terminators or the like.

 

As for those doctrines, most of them would be covered in the unit selections. Carapace Armour or Cameleoline would be an option in each unit entry at a reasonable price (charged per model, not per unit, probably 2 points each). Some units, like Conscripts, wouldn’t get this option.

 

Officers would be able to take the Iron Discipline upgrade at the same cost and a Close Order Drill upgrade at 5 points which effects their entire platoon.

 

All “guard infantry” units can take a Chimera (solving the Mechanised issue), and can deepstrike and/or infiltrate (perhaps for a small cost) and if the mission allows it.

I truly disagree. Guard are not underpowered. they have some choices that need a boost to make them attractive to take.
reasons why guard don't do better at tournaments
1 just to many guys to move to get a game done in time
2 if an army can get in close combat early versus guard the game is pretty much over
3 a crap load of models to paint so it is hard to get the high painting scores you have to work twice as hard as most other players to get a similar score

one rule would make guard work. allow them to fallback if they lose comabt even if they pass leadership. it would make them much harder to pin down with small fast units.

Instead of doing a bunch of Leman Russes, just let you purchase the main cannon from a selection of twin linked autocannon. twin linked lascannon, battle cannon etc for a points cost.

Make the HSO and JO with HO the same points cost.

Allow officers to be taken separately or have the HQ squad not be targetable under the same rules as independent characters.

Give the whole army Close Order Drill.

All special units (Vets, Storm troopers, Special weapons squads, ratlings) are allowed to deepstrike or infiltrate if the mission permits.

And skipper, i have to disagree with you.

Gaurd dont do well at tournies for a lot of the reasons you mentioned, but also beause th elist is just fla tout les powerful than most others. I think the only list with a bigger handicap out of the gates is Orks.

Also, the missions right now really hurt IG. Alpha is a killer because you cant deep strike or infiltrate, and Omega missions suck beause your all important tanks dont start on board.

I think Stu-Rat made some good points though.

I agree that for the most part, the list is fine, but there are a few things i think need to be changed.

For one, i totally agree that the advisors need ot be able to attach to any squad you desire. as they stand now, they just suck big time. And, without a doubt they need to be cheaper. You should be able to buy them and attach tme to any squad of your choice.

Vets should be 1-3, agreed there.

Stormtroopers being able to always deepstrike or infiltrate would be very useful and also fit the fluff. I think that is a good fix.

Ogryns need big time help. I love the models but they just suck. They need a 4+ armor save and I think making them toughness 5 with two wounds would be a good compromise. that way they can actually stay in a fight without being powerfist bait.

Techpriests should be handeld as techmarines, they should not take up a FOC slot. That way they would be worth taking In a mechanized list.

Normal line squads are fine but their heavy weapons need to be put in line with other heavy weapons. Why does a SM pay 15 points for a las cannon when a feeble gaurdsmen pays 25? that doenst make sense, IG should pay less for their heavy weapons. the option for a chimera is a very good idea though.

I agree with you about the fast attack as well. The salamander is a great tool, but the vehicle is too big. it needs to be the size of a buggy or a land speeder. rules wise, it fits a nitch that the IG need, a fast objective grabber.

The hellhound is a great tank, but i agree that maybe 100 points is more in line with its durability.

I think rough riders should be able to count as having frags the turn the charge with lances. otherwise charging enemy units in cover just totally nueters them.

Also, the sentinal should be able to FoF, or move double speed if it doesnt fire. otherwise the thing is just too slow to fill its roll. a 9" move would be great, something ot make it faster. 6" just does not cut the mustard.

And i also agree that some more options in the HS slot would be great, although i have never played in or watched a game in which anyone complained about a Gaurd player using FW varient tanks and units. Everyone likes variety.

Building the doctrines into the list could be a good idea. most of the doctrines suck, but you would have to impliment some of the others as well. that is an easy fix though.


on the whole, i think these are good dieas for the most part, and would be an easy fix to help the gaurd out and bring them up in power to make them more competetive with other lists.

Keep very quiet and hope GW doesn't notice the codex for the next year, until this generic list only phase passes again?

I think you missed the big issue with the guard and that is a standard guard army really struggles to destroy enemy vehicles.

This is because the HW squad is amazingly vulnerable, being only six men strong. In 3rd edition, where you could screen squads this wasn't a problem but now HW sqauds are just a big target for the opponent unless you play all infantry and tank an absolute ton of HW squads.

Then when you factor in that Ordnance is much worse at killing vehicles a standard Guard army has no reliable way to counter mech armies at a distance.


I propose that Heavy Weapon teams should be able to purchase an extra crewman per weapon, bumping the squad size up to 9 if the player wishes.

Also, some sort of anti-vehicle tank needs to be introduced. They could bring in the LR Annihilator (TL Lascannon Russ) from IA5, or they could just give the standard Leman Russ the ability to fire an Anti-tank shell like the Vanquisher used to be able to.


When it comes to Ogryns, I don't think any radical change is needed, just the proper points cost. at 18 points a model Ogryns would be pretyy tempting.

My suggestion for Ratlings is simple. They should be a single FOC choice but mutiple small teams (like 3-4 models a piece) that operate seperately in the game.

Storm Troopers definitely need work in the post Sisters of Battle era. Giving them free permanent (regardless of mission) infiltration/Deep Strike is a great start but I almost think that they need a point shaved off their cost too.



Overall I think your suggestions are pretty good Stu, I just think you missed the biggest problem!


I agree with Reecius too: Sentinels should DEFINITELY have fleet of foot, Guard weapon points costs definitely need to be brought into line with the 4th edition changes (no screening = less points cost for weapons) and Rough Riders should have the *option* to buy Frags.

Also, why can't the Rough Riders have two CC weapons as a back-up after their Lance blows? Having 1 attack Guardsmen on horses after the lance blows is just depressingly sad.

Ogryns at 18 points would be amazing, but I think that's a bit too cheap for them, because of the amount of wounds they have, they would be an excellent counter to genestealers or harlequins. Since the armor is irrelavant when facing rending, it just matters how many wounds you have. Also since most rending foes (such as daemonettes and harlequins) don't have a very good save, regular high-strength attacks are quite effective. Also they do have an assault 2 gun, so that's 5 attacks they can send on the charge (2 shooting, 3 charging) 25 points per model is too much, I think 20-22 points per model would be good. .

I'm not so sure that the tanks should be given better anti-tank options. I'm not saying that the anti-tank weapons they have are great, but that's not their job. The job of all of the tanks in this army is to take out enemy infantry. It's the infantry's job to take out the tanks. I think the tanks currently present are fine.

Saying that, the heavy weapon squads could use a little bit of help. I think the heavy weapon squads should have access to an upgrade such as sandbags or something like that, would make them even less mobile, but would give them a 4+ cover save anywhere on the table. That way, they would actually very survivable.

I really don't play on a competitive level, so I don't know from personal experience, but it just seems that with wanting to make every elite choice amazing and such is that the aspect that makes the Guard what they are is being taken away...the numbers. The elite choices and fast attack choices probably should be changed, but not so much that people go bare minimum on troops. You should have some elite, some fast attack, and heavy support choices in to support the bulk of the army, the troops. The troops themselves are not that good, because the whole army is built so you can field lots of them, to overwhelm the enemy.

I understand that there's legitimate circumstances where some units may be made overpowered/underpowered, but I just get somewhat frustrated that I see alot of people in various forums complaining about this unit or that unit and seem to want the armies tailored to exactly the way they play.

All the armies don't play the same; you can't just min/max with Guard and expect to win every time. You need a large amount of troops, a couple of heavy support options, an elite unit, a fast attack or two, but the emphasis really should be on line squads. It seems that people want Guard to be turned into a more elite/specialised force, but that seems to go completely against what Guard are.

I'm just somewhat venting my frustration about people trying to get the whole army completely changed for everyone else, because they can't adapt their playing style/tactics. I'm not gonna say it's easy, considering the different mission objectives that give an advantage to the more mobile armies.

I personally do like the challenge of having my army at a disadvantage, it makes you work that much harder to win.

It is good though that people are discussing various fixes that can be used to make certain units more balanced/helpful. I do gain alot of insight when reading on this forum.

You really want to fix guard its easy,

1)Drop by one point the cost of every guard infantry man in the book with the exception of hardened vets
2)Drop the cost of every guard heavy weapon including the heavy bolter and mortar by 5 points.
3)Change the way the doctrines are written so that costs are applied per model and not per unit.
4)Sorry, but Ogryns should be down to 18 points. They are a tarpit unit that can not tarpit. That way they are great against steelers and harlies, but still suffer against the powerfist marine.
5)Last but not least S4 Shotguns!

Done!

Foil7102: I agree with you on your first 3 points and your last point, but I just want to ask you, what is the basis for reducing the Ogryn to 18 points?

I'm just asking why that amount of points, because cutting the point value of a unit by more than 25% is a major deal. I just think 20 points seem more reasonable for what you're getting. You're getting 3 attacks (5 if the enemy unit isn't locked in CC) on the charge, with high strength attacks, on a model that is tough as a marine with three wounds. A genestealer with extended carapace costs the same as that, and it also gets fleet, with higher initiative and weapon skill. In close combat, an Ogryn has a very good chance of killing a genestealer as opposed to a genestealer killing an Ogryn. 

They're still susceptible to powerfists, which is why I think 20 points should be a reasonable price and 18 is just a bit too much of a point reduction. 

I think trying to fix the IG is a really really good idea, personally I think that we the players should go through all the lists and balance them ourselves since GW seems to be incapable.  

Here is my Ideas for the HQ choices for imperial guard.

HQ

1 Regimental Commander

Heroic Senior Officer 50 pts
Senior Officer 30 pts
Junior Officer 20 pts

Number/Squad: The commander may be used as an independent character or may be accompanied by a retinue of 4-9 guardsmen at +6 pts. ea.

Weapons: Officers are armed either with a bolter a shotgun or a bolt pistol and a ccw, guardsmen are armed either with lasguns, shotguns, or laspistols and ccws. 

Character:  If the officer is attached to a retinue he functions as a member of the squad, and does not revert to being and independent character even if the entire squad is wiped out, if he does not have a retinue he functions as an independent character and uses the rules for an independent character. 

Options: The officer has access to the imperial guard armory,  and  may be given Iron  Discipline at + 5 pts (this counts against his 100 pts. of wargeer/upgrades)

The guardsmen can have frag grenades at +1 pt ea and krack grenades at +2 pts ea.

Two guardsmen can form a single heavy weapons team.  A heavy weapons team must be armed with one of the following weapons.

Heavy Bolter + 5 pts , Missile Launcher + 10 pts, Auto Cannon + 10 pts, Lascannon + 15 pts

up to two members not part of a heavy weapons crew may take special weapons from the following list, plasma gun +8 pts, melta gun + 8 pts, Grenade launcher + 5 pts, flamer + 5 pts.

Transport: If the commander chooses to take a retinue the squad may be mounted in a chimera at + 70pts.

Special Rules:
Any squad within 12" of a command squad Any unit with a commander attached  automatically passes all moral and pinning tests (this is applied to his retinue, or to a squad he joins if he is an independent character)

0-3 special support squads may be attached to the command squad.

0-1 anti tank squads

Numbers/squad the squad is composed of 6-9 guardsmen at 8 pts ea. 

Weapons between 1-3 guardsmen may be armed with one of the following heavy weapons: Missile Launcher + 15 pts, Lascannon + 20 pts. All those not armed with heavy weapons are armed with lasguns.  For every guardsmen with a heavy weapon there must be another guardsman allocated to carry his ammo, these two form a heavy weapons crew.   (if the ammo carrier dies the heavy weapon it was assigned to does not suffer any penalty).

0-1 fire support squads

Numbers/squad the squad is composed of 6-9 guardsmen at 8 pts ea.

Weapons 1-3 guardsmen may be armed with one of the following heavy weapons: Heavy Bolter + 10 pts, Autocannon +15 pts. All those not armed with heavy weapons are armed with lasguns. For every guardsmen with a heavy weapon there must be another guardsman allocated to carry his ammo, these two form a heavy weapons crew.    (if the ammo carrier dies the heavy weapon it was assigned to does not suffer any penalty).

0-2 Special Weapon Squads:

Numbers/squad the squad is composed of 6-9 guardsmen at 6 pts ea.

Weapons 1-4 guardsmen may be upgraded to any of the following special weapons, melta gun 8 pts, flamer 5 pts, grenade launcher 5 pts, demolition charge 10 pts.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Advisers:

Advisors can be allocated to any squad and function as members of the squad and not as independent characters.  No squad may be given more then two advisors, and no squad may have two of the same advisors.

0-5 Sanctioned Psykers 10 pts ea

weapons: laspistol and ccw.

Options: sacntioned psykers have access to the imperial guard armory.

Special rules:

Psychic powers
a sanctioned psyker must select one of the following abilities

Telepathic Order: 10 pts.
Psychic Ward: 10 pts
Psychic Lash: 15 pts
Machince Curse: 15 pts
Lightning arc: 10 pts

0-5 Commissars 25 pts ea

Weapons las pistol + ccw

Options: commissars have access to the imperial guard armory and may select officer only items.

Special Rules: Any squad with a commissar in it automatically passes any moral or pinning checks.  Any squad with both a commisar and a commander in it is considered fearless, but does not take wounds from this ability.

Summary Execution, the commissar may execute a member of his squad during the players shooting phase (ie auto kill one member), if so all units within 12 inches of the commissars squad (and including the commisars squad) gain + 1initiative until the IG players next shooting phase. (the pykers telepathic order increases this to 18 inches)

0-5 Priests 25 pts ea

Weapons las pistol + ccw

Options: Preists have access to the imperial guard armory but may not access officer only items.

Special Rules:

Righteous Furry: Squads with priests must charge if within assault range of an enemy squad, and  squads with priests always count as if they moved and may not fire heavy weapons.

Fanatical: Once per game at the beginning of either players shooting phase the  priest may use his special ability.  All units within 12" of the the priests squad gain + 1 attack and gain fleet of foot, all squads affected are imposed to the righteous furry rule.  This power wears off after at the begging of the players shooting phase for which it was declared.  (IE if declared during your opponents shooting phase it ends at the begging of your opponents next shooting phase.)

0-5 medics 15pts ea

Weapons: a medic is armed with a lasgun and medi packs, (use the stats for the medic in the IG HQ rules)

0-1 standard bearer 15 pts

weapons: a standard bearer is armed with a lasgun and a standard, (use the stats for the standard bearer in the IG HQ rules)

Options: a standard bearer may upgrade his standard to a regimental standard at + 15 pts.




I think the points on some of these will need to be changed but overall I like this a lot.  What do you all think of this setup?

that is an excellent idea, although GW is unlikely to change it due to the stated position of liking the aesthetics of the weapon team models. They NEED more wounds though, you can torrent of fire a 6 man gaurd squad with ease.



Another great idea, just like the Hammerhead, give IG tanks the option to fire an anti troop or anti tank shell. As it is, strength 8 even with two dice take the highest rolled for armor pen, just isnt worth a hoot vs heavy tanks. If you could opt to fire a str 8 plus 2d6 armor pen shell at normal BS with no blast, that would be great and give IG tanks a huge amount of versatility. I think that is an excellent proppsed change, would not be overpowering and fits the fluff to boot, adjusting the points upwards of course. Or make it optional ammo at a points increase. I hate it when my line squad las cannons get hosed by a smart player, and then i have nothing to take out enemy tanks or MC's. It is so stupid that a flipping battle cannon or demolisher cannon can hit a big bug square on and do barely anything to it. But multi wound heavy weapons is a topic for another thread.

Ogryns at a reduced point cost is not something i considered, but makes sense. I just dont feel that it addresses the main problem with the unit, and what keeps them out of competetive builds. as Foil7102 said, they are meant to be a tarpit unit, but the majority of decent assault units have a hidden strength 8 weapon that will mow thorugh Ogryns. I think they need to be able to withstand that so that they can keep an assault unit tied up for several turns. at toughness 4, they are not able to do so.
Also, i have always felt that Ogryns needed more bite, maybe the option for a powerweapon on the bonehead. A str 5 PW swinging at in3 is nothing too scary and shouldnt be totally overpowering. Maybe a power bayonett like in DoW.



But Ogryns almost never shoot anthing they charge, they either counter charge into an existing combat, or get charged by an assault unit that is almost invariably faster then they are. It is rare that they get to shoot and charge so factoring in their gun is pretty moot.

FOIL7102, i agree with your idea about lowering the cost of the gaurdsman, he just plain sucks. But by reducing the cost of the Gaurd you still dont alleviate the cost of heavy weapons in heavy weapons squads. That effectively reduces the cost of heavy weapons in line squads, but only nominally reduces the cost of HW squads which i strongly feel are out of line.



You are correct in that people who *female dog* just to get something changed to their particular play style are being immature and unreasonable. What we are trying to do here, is come up with some corrections to make the Gaurd more competetive on the whole. These changes are to make all units worth taking, not to make one play style better than another, on the contrary, by making the codex and all of its units playable, you open up a lot more options for everyone. Also, i enjoy a challenge too, but playing with a handicaped army is just unfair, all armies should be as equal as is possible.


Lastly, I forgot to bring up one unit that i would love to see added to the gaurd list. I have always liked the way that while gaurd sucked on their own, when used in combination with each other they become a pretty tough force. What I mean is the leadership bubbles of officers, the abilities the advisors add (and would be really cool if it was done right!) etc.

The supreme commander that was brought up in a WD a year or so ago I felt was a great concept.

Basically, he was like a combination between an Inquisitor Lord and a normal gaurd HQ. You could give him certain advisors that would grant special abilities, like a reroll for failed reserve rolls, the ability for Gaurdsmen in his command radius to use his leadership (of 10) for leadership AND target priority rolls, prelimenary bombardment in every game. He could allow one squad to reroll its shooting dice per turn, etc. Bascially he was an awesome utility unit that was not so great on its own (you could kit him and his crew out for HtH, but that is just dumb with Gaurd) but was a HUGE force multiplyer. As his advisors died, he lost his special abilities.

In essence, he would be like a farseer, but gaurd style. He would help increase the overall ability of the IG army, but he was pretty weak. I think it is a really good idea and fits well in the gaurd concept. You can take an HQ command staff that is vulnerbale to attack and not very durable, but can really increase the ability of your other units. If the HQ dies, you lose a points investment and your army loses a lot of coordination.

building on Reec's High Command, maybe giving the HSO the options of the High Command and not letting a JO w/ HI take the options. This way you can choose a cheap leader (JO) or go with a more experienced HSO and the utility he brings to battle. Atleast there'd be a reason to use the HSO...

It seems putting autocannon turrets on chimeras would make them better.

Some great suggestions by (nearly) everyone so far but I would point out that this is meant to be a discussion of "fixing" the IG Codex as GW would or possibly could in their current state of mind.

So, while I may agree with some of the suggestions (and not with others), can we please keep it to what GW would likely do rather than what they should/could? Or, by all means, suggest something you'd think GW would do but argue your case why. Thanks so much.

For example, I personally like the idea of Ogryns costing around 18 points each if unchanged or 20-22 points if bumped a little in strength. I personally dislike the idea of dropping the average Guardsman cost to 5 points. Either way, it doesn't matter as I don't see GW doing either in the near future. It's the same as discussing improving or adding/subtracting doctrines - in all likelihood GW will remove doctrines altogether.

As an (slightly off-topic) aside, I have never understood why the same weapon costs different amounts for each army, or in some cases within an army. A weapon is a weapon is a weapon. Why should a Lascannon be 15 points for a Tactical Marine but 25 for a Devastator and 25 for an Imperial Guardsman?

It's the statline that changes, so the increased/decreased cost should be reflected there, in the cost of the model, not the weapon. And likewise, if the increased cost is meant to balance units with an army (Tactical versus Devastator, for instance), the cost should be reflected in the unit, not the weapon.

And any argument GW has put forward on this subject is refuted by countless other examples elsewhere in their games. I just don't get that.

HQThe HQ is kept pretty much the same. The system works well at present.

Except that it doesn't.

Like most things GW writes, the concept is great, but the execution leaves much to be desired.

In the re-written Guard Codex we use, the Junior/Senior/Heroic Senior Officer distinctions are gone. No one takes Senior Officers, and the Heroic is 5 points more expensive than a JO with the Honorifica.

In our version we just have a Junior (Ld8) and a Senior (Ld9). A Junior w/Honorifica is more expensive than a Senior, so it's only useful in an Infantry Platoon. Neither of them have W3. They're just normal humans, so W2 is all they need.

Veteran Guardsmen (and Sergeants for that matter) are +2, not +6. Why would you pay double the cost of a Guardsmen for +1Ld and +1A? Idiotic. By the same token, the price of Standard Bearers is changed to +8 rather than +5. This is simply done so that, over all, Standard Bearers are a 10 point upgrade rather than the current 11 point upgrade.

Iron Discipline becomes a standard choice for all Officers, not a Doctrine.

Medics become IC's that project a Feel No Pain save to all models within 6". It's a 6+ FNP save, not a 4+ FNP save though.

Rather than Anti-Tank, Fire-Support, Mortar and Special Weapon Squads, we divided it up into two different areas:

0-4 Platoon Support Squads

0-2 Combat Engineer Squads

Platoon Support Squads cost 30 points, consist of 6 Guardsmen, and can be upgraded with one of the following:

3 Mortars - 20 Points

3 Heavy Bolters - 20 Points
3 Autocannons - 40 Points
3 Missile Launchers - 40 Points

3 Lascannons - 60 Points

All weapons must be the same.

Combat Engineer squads are just Special Weapon Squads as we know them now, except they have normal Guard special weapon prices, can get Plasma Guns, and have a Chimera option.

The only changes I’d make are:Advisors: Commissars and Priests are reduced to 25 points each. Sanctioned Psykers remain at their cheap 12 points cost but instead of a random psychic power you can select one and pay a cost, as per every other Codex with psychic powers.In addition, all Advisors can be independent, not just Commissars, at the additional cost of 10 points. This makes them much more valuable (and replaces the Independent Commissars doctrine), and the idea of attaching a Commissar and a Priest to a large Conscript Platoon is appealing

Why pay more points to become Independant? Becoming an IC is not a benefit all the time - it means you can be picked out - so why pay for it?

A better idea would be to scrap the Advisors rule and allow Commissars and the like to be attached wherever you want.

In our version Commissars are a 0-1 choice in each platoon, so every platoon can have a Commissar. His rule's allow for any squad within 6" that is forced to take a Morale Check can choose to pass that test automatically by removing one model as a casualty. Or you can attach a Commissar to a squad before the game. This makes Commissars useful. Priests have more weapon options.

Sanctioned Psykers get useful abilities, not crappy abilities like the Heavy D6 Lasgun also known as 'Lightning Arc'. And they're not random.

Veterans would be split into Combat Squads (yes, I know that rule only applies to Space Marines but the way GW are going...). You can take 3 Special Weapons in a squad of 5, and only take a Heavy Weapon in a squad of 10. This matches the way GW seems to be thinking lately and how most people use Veterans (suicide squads of 5 with maxed-out Plasma/Melta or large squads with Lascannons). Everything else remains the same (i.e. they still get Infiltrate for free, etc.).

Stormtroopers also need help, but this is much easier. No one (well, almost no one) takes Stormtroopers because Veterans can do everything they can do, better and cheaper. Easy solution = allow Stormtroopers to Infiltrate and Deepstrike for free instead of paying for the benefit (gives the player more options) and allow them to do so even if the mission does not allow it.

Veterans are the problem with Storm Troopers. Storm Troopers are the problem with Veterans. As you said, no one uses Storm Troopers because Veterans do the job better. The fixes we've made are quite simple:

1. Storm Troopers have Deep Strike/Infiltrate as standard.
2. Storm Troopers have 4 Special Weapon choices.
3. Veterans have 2 special weapon choices, making Storm Troopers better Deep Striking units - as they should be!
4. Veterans have Infiltration/Scouts as standard.
5. Hellguns are actually dangerous, S4 AP6 Rapid Fire or S6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!. In other words they have an over-charge.
6. Targeters increase the range of guns by 50% if the unit does not move. Allows squads of Storm Troopers to stay within the lines sending out 36" range Plasma and Hellgun shots.

Ogryns need some serious help. It’s difficult to know what to do with them, however. I’d up their Armour Save to 4+ to begin with. Maybe give them FNP instead or the ability to ignore insta-kill.

Ogryn are very hard to fix. A FNP save doesn't work as it doesn't ignore the chief problem - a single Power Fist kills them all. Immune to Instant Death also doesn't work as why wouldn't a Lascannon or Powerfist slay one in a single hit?

Although not the greatest of solutions, we gave Ogryn a 4+ Invulenrable save, representing their faith in 'Da Empruh' protecting them. We also made Ripper Guns R12 S4 AP4 Assault 2, and when Ogryn use them they are BS6 (ie. the old 2nd Ed rules where Ripper Guns at short range auto-hit their targets, so unlikely was it that the Ogryn would miss). Ogryn also always get +1 for having 2 CCW, as they use their guns as clubs!!!

Ratlings are ok, although I still don’t see why anyone would take them.

Ratlings in our rules are very different, but that's mainly because we changed Sniper Rifles from 'crap' to 'good'. It's too difficult to discuss without discussing the major changes we made to Sniper Rifles, other than to say that we left them at 0-1 as having more than 5 on the table would be quite overpowering (as in, removing-every-heavy-weapon-from-a-Dev-Squad-in-a-single-turn over powering).

Techpriests are the same. They’re not broken, but don’t need to be fixed either.

They're not very useful. The first step is the upping of the Enginseer's stats so he isn't just a Guardsman in fancy pajamas with a big axe. Allowing more Servitors is another good step - maybe not the gun ones, but the other types definately. We're testing unit sizes up to 10, including the Enginseer. So an Enginseer (WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv3+/4+FNP) and 9 Combat Servitors. Combat-Servitors can either use power weapons (S3) or power fists (S6), and can switch between rounds. Servitors are also Toughness 5 to represent their innate toughness (a FNP wouldn't work for them in the same way it wouldn't work for Ogryn).

Troops are kept exactly the same as they are now. Nothing wrong with them.

There are several things wrong with them.

For starters, paying 10 points for a Plasma Gun. It's worth 8. 8 for a Grenade Launcher? It's worth 5. 5 for a Flamer as well. 8 points for Heavy Bolters. 14 for ML's and Autocannons. 18 for Lascannons. No Mortars in squads, only in Mortar units.

Out Platoons work in a similar way to CHQ's:

1 Platoon Command Section
2-5 Infantry Squads

0-2 Platoon Support Squads

0-1 Combat Engineer Squad
0-1 Comissar

0-1 Platoon Medic
0-1 Platoon Sniper

Exactly as it sounds, although no Lascannons in Infantry Platoon Support Squads.

Conscripts can be fired at when they're in HTH with the enemy. Hits hit the enemy, misses hit the Conscripts.

Armoured Fists are just Infantry Squads with Chimeras, and therefore have the reduced costs for weapons.

Grenadiers are 8 points per model, do not have Deep Strike/Infiltrate, but are otherwise Storm Troopers with all the same options.

Rough Riders are 10 points each, come with Lances, and don't have other options as no one ever takes them except with Lances.

Griffons, LR Exterminators, and other fun things are all restored.

Our Hellhound is 95.


Yarrick's had his day? No way.

Firstly Yarrick goes back up to T4. He is the only T4 human, and should stay that way. He gets his Force Field, and a FNP save, and Grimaldus/Living Saints ressurect ability. He is hard as nails, as he should be. The current Yarrick is Yarrick-Lite. Yarrick needs to be Yarrick once again - toughest of all non-Marine humans, slayer of Ork Warbosses and taker of grevious wounds! He should be awesome.



I wouldn't allow basic Guard to 'always' Infiltrate/Deep Strike.

Drop Troopers would be removed and reserved for an Elysian style list. Mechanised Lists would be a separate list. Special Equipment Doctrines like Carapace Armour and Cameleoline would be taken on a platoon-by-platoon basis, rather than an entire army. Hopeless Doctrines like Jungle Fighters, Hardened Fighters, Cybernetic Enhancements and the like would be removed.

And that's just a little bit on what we've done. We've also got rules for different types of Commanders (Tyrants, Heroes, Fanatics), along with specialist formations (Drop Troops, Jungle Fighters, Armoured Companies, Armoured Cavalry, Air Cav, Mechanised).

BYE

"I agree with you about the fast attack as well. The salamander is a great tool, but the vehicle is too big. it needs to be the size of a buggy or a land speeder. rules wise, it fits a nitch that the IG need, a fast objective grabber."

This sort of thing would fit in with the current trend (Tau Piranha, Eldar Vyper, Marine Speeders, etc.)

Obviously a skimmer would be out of place with the Guard.

How about a Jeep/Hummvee style vehicle? AV 10/10/10 BS3, Fast, Open-Topped with a pintle Heavy Stubber (swappable for a Meltagun) taken as a Fast Attack choice in squads of 1-3. As long as the price was right (30 points?) it would be a viable choice.

It would also fit in with the feel of the Imperial Guard and provide a 'realistic' unit that they're currently missing. It's the sort of thing that has been bantered around since 2nd edition, but I think there is a reasonable chance of seeing it in the next revision.


I agree that some cost reductions are in order too. Ditto for more flexibility in the use of advisers.

[b]HQ[/b]The HQ is kept pretty much the same. The system works well at present.

Except that it doesn't.

Like most things GW writes, the concept is great, but the execution leaves much to be desired.

Thats a good way to put it.  I guess you do have to give them credit for the concepts. (most future games have 3 races, humans, bugs, and futuristic bug humans)

In the re-written Guard Codex we use, the Junior/Senior/Heroic Senior Officer distinctions are gone. No one takes Senior Officers, and the Heroic is 5 points more expensive than a JO with the Honorifica.

In our version we just have a Junior (Ld8) and a Senior (Ld9). A Junior w/Honorifica is more expensive than a Senior, so it's only useful in an Infantry Platoon. Neither of them have W3. They're just normal humans, so W2 is all they need.

Definitely a good Idea, makes IG HQ's more what they should be.

On a side note, did you read my post?   Do you think allowing them to be independent, and then take a retinue would be more balanced?

Veteran Guardsmen (and Sergeants for that matter) are +2, not +6. Why would you pay double the cost of a Guardsmen for +1Ld and +1A? Idiotic. By the same token, the price of Standard Bearers is changed to +8 rather than +5. This is simply done so that, over all, Standard Bearers are a 10 point upgrade rather than the current 11 point upgrade.

+2 sounds about right since there still toughness 3 save 5+, and on top of that IG gets free moral boosts in the command squads anyways. 

I think it would be better to let the standard bearer be an adviser since it's unfair to make your HQ have to carry the burden of having the best moral unit. 

Iron Discipline becomes a standard choice for all Officers, not a Doctrine.

Definitely

Medics become IC's that project a Feel No Pain save to all models within 6". It's a 6+ FNP save, not a 4+ FNP save though.

Yeah this is how medic should function, I was trying to figure out how to use them but allow them to work in more then one squad, I think you've hit the nail on the head here.  On a side note, I think something should be employed so that medics can be used for more then just line troops.  For instance, a medic joining a rough rider squad gets a horse at + 2 pts, or a medic joining a veteran squad gains the ability to infiltrate with the squad (IE a veteran medic).

Oh, and how would this work in close combat?

Rather than Anti-Tank, Fire-Support, Mortar and Special Weapon Squads, we divided it up into two different areas:

0-4 Platoon Support Squads

0-2 Combat Engineer Squads

Platoon Support Squads cost 30 points, consist of 6 Guardsmen, and can be upgraded with one of the following:

3 Mortars - 20 Points

3 Heavy Bolters - 20 Points
3 Autocannons - 40 Points
3 Missile Launchers - 40 Points

3 Lascannons - 60 Points

All weapons must be the same.

This is really good idea, finally mortar squads would be worth their points.

Combat Engineer squads are just Special Weapon Squads as we know them now, except they have normal Guard special weapon prices, can get Plasma Guns, and have a Chimera option.

The only changes I’d make are:Advisors: Commissars and Priests are reduced to 25 points each. Sanctioned Psykers remain at their cheap 12 points cost but instead of a random psychic power you can select one and pay a cost, as per every other Codex with psychic powers.In addition, all Advisors can be independent, not just Commissars, at the additional cost of 10 points. This makes them much more valuable (and replaces the Independent Commissars doctrine), and the idea of attaching a Commissar and a Priest to a large Conscript Platoon is appealing

Why pay more points to become Independant? Becoming an IC is not a benefit all the time - it means you can be picked out - so why pay for it?

A better idea would be to scrap the Advisors rule and allow Commissars and the like to be attached wherever you want.

Agreed.

In our version Commissars are a 0-1 choice in each platoon, so every platoon can have a Commissar. His rule's allow for any squad within 6" that is forced to take a Morale Check can choose to pass that test automatically by removing one model as a casualty. Or you can attach a Commissar to a squad before the game. This makes Commissars useful. Priests have more weapon options.

This part I don't like, theres no reason you shouldn't have to remove a person every time you want a squad to pass a moral check.  The rule should be, once per game a commissar may remove one model within 6" of him, and every squad within 12"to the squad he removed a model from, automatically regroups, and are assumed to pass all moral tests until one full turn has passed.

Sanctioned Psykers get useful abilities, not crappy abilities like the Heavy D6 Lasgun also known as 'Lightning Arc'. And they're not random.

If you read my post, I think I came up with a pretty good fix to this.

Veterans would be split into Combat Squads (yes, I know that rule only applies to Space Marines but the way GW are going...). You can take 3 Special Weapons in a squad of 5, and only take a Heavy Weapon in a squad of 10. This matches the way GW seems to be thinking lately and how most people use Veterans (suicide squads of 5 with maxed-out Plasma/Melta or large squads with Lascannons). Everything else remains the same (i.e. they still get Infiltrate for free, etc.).

Stormtroopers also need help, but this is much easier. No one (well, almost no one) takes Stormtroopers because Veterans can do everything they can do, better and cheaper. Easy solution = allow Stormtroopers to Infiltrate and Deepstrike for free instead of paying for the benefit (gives the player more options) and allow them to do so even if the mission does not allow it.

Veterans are the problem with Storm Troopers. Storm Troopers are the problem with Veterans. As you said, no one uses Storm Troopers because Veterans do the job better. The fixes we've made are quite simple:

Exactly

1. Storm Troopers have Deep Strike/Infiltrate as standard.
2. Storm Troopers have 4 Special Weapon choices.
3. Veterans have 2 special weapon choices, making Storm Troopers better Deep Striking units - as they should be!
4. Veterans have Infiltration/Scouts as standard.
5. Hellguns are actually dangerous, S4 AP6 Rapid Fire or S6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!. In other words they have an over-charge.
6. Targeters increase the range of guns by 50% if the unit does not move. Allows squads of Storm Troopers to stay within the lines sending out 36" range Plasma and Hellgun shots.

This is a really good fix to storm troopers, however it is make veterans suck harder.

This is an idea I'm still fooling around with and they haven't been completely tested, but this is how I think vets should be used.

0-1 Veteran Platoon

1-3 veteran Squads (maybe this should be 2-5)
0-1 veteran support squad (maybe this should be 0-2, plus maybe adding 0-1 engineer squads.)
0-1 veteran medics
0-1 veteran snipers

Numbers/Squad: A veteran squad consists of 5-10 veterans at + 10 pts ea.

 

Weapons: Veterans are either armed with lasguns, or shotguns.

 

Options: A veteran may be upgraded to a veteran sergeant at + 2 pts.  A veteran Sergeant has access to the imperial guard armory.

 

2 veterans may become a heavy weapons team and choose from one of the following weapons (I haven't tested the squad with heavy or special weapons yet so I'm not sure what these should cost yet): lascannon, autocannon, heavy bolter, missile launcher.

 

1 veteran not acting as a heavy weapons team may take a special weapon from the following list: plasma gun, meltagun, grenade launcher, flamer.

 

Special Rules: (These rules show the skills that these men must have developed to make it through endless savage campaigns, fighting against every type of opponent imaginable, and still surviving to fight for the Imperium.)

 

Survivors:  Veterans add 1 to there cover saves (ie 5+ cover saves become 4+ covers saves).

(this special ability details a concept covered in the book; "all is quite on the western front".  In the book the veterans could tell by sound which bombs were dropping and where they were going to drop, and so they acted accordingly; where as the new soldiers only panicked and died)

Precision Shooters: When rolling to hit treat any 6 rolled as an auto wound for which the opponent saves at -1 save.  (IE you shoot at a space marine squad, you roll two 6's to hit, that player now needs to take 2 saves at 4+ save.)  If shooting at a unit using a cover save treat this as -1 cover save.  (IE you shoot your plasma gun at a space marine squad in 5+ cover, you roll a 6 to hit, you auto wound and the space marine saves on a 6+)  Use the units unmodified save for the purpose of AP weapons.  (IE a veteran shoots a heavy bolter at a space marine squad, he rolls one 6, this counts as an auto wound to which the space marine tests on a 4+; however the ap 4 of the heavy bolter does not pierce the space marines unmodified 3+ save, but the space marine still uses his modified 4+ to test)  This ability does not actually modify the armor of the squad, in the same way choppas do not actually modify the armor.  All other shots (not 6's) are rolled for normally.

(This special rule shows there prowess veterans have with their weapons; in order for a soldier to survive for long using the weakest of weaponry he must have learned how to use the weapon correctly.  In this case that would be aiming your weapons at the weak points in an opponents armor where a direct hit is known to be fatal.)

 

Infiltrators: Veterans may infiltrate even if the mission does not permit it.

(After endless battles Veterans have learned how to hide themselves while moving up a battlefield.  Against a robotic race like the necrons this would be them acting exactly like animals so as to deceive the necron radars.  Against a race like tyranids this would be them concealing their scent by covering themselves in tyranid blood.)

 

Agile: Veterans move 6" through difficult terrain.

(Veterans have moved through even the most treacherous terrain. [some of it was probably alive, and trying to eat them; or on fire or some thing treacherous] They have learned to move quickly through this terrain, those who did not are already dead.

Fearless: Veterans are assumed to pass all moral tests.

 

(It would be impossible for these soldiers to harbor a fear for any death, they have seen every possible way to die, and felt it in the faces of their fallen comrades.)

advisers: 

Commissars cannot accompany a veteran squad, nor can they use execute on a veteran squad. (the veterans would kick his ass, if he tried)

Any medic or sniper purchased benefits from the veteran special rules.

The veteran support squads + veteran combat engineer squad (if there is one) would be a standard support squad but with bs 4, and all of the veteran special abilities; of course there would be an increased price also.

This platoon might be a bit over powered as it is (I haven't really play tested it much) but in the end its just a bunch of models with toughness 3 which can never be too overpowered, and out in the open they die just as easily as guardsmen.  I think the rules represent exactly the type of veterans that would accompany the imperial guard, and the points may need to be modified, but the actual build just sounds like loads of fun. 

Ogryns need some serious help. It’s difficult to know what to do with them, however. I’d up their Armour Save to 4+ to begin with. Maybe give them FNP instead or the ability to ignore insta-kill.

Ogryn are very hard to fix. A FNP save doesn't work as it doesn't ignore the chief problem - a single Power Fist kills them all. Immune to Instant Death also doesn't work as why wouldn't a Lascannon or Powerfist slay one in a single hit?

Although not the greatest of solutions, we gave Ogryn a 4+ Invulenrable save, representing their faith in 'Da Empruh' protecting them. We also made Ripper Guns R12 S4 AP4 Assault 2, and when Ogryn use them they are BS6 (ie. the old 2nd Ed rules where Ripper Guns at short range auto-hit their targets, so unlikely was it that the Ogryn would miss). Ogryn also always get +1 for having 2 CCW, as they use their guns as clubs!!!

This is an ok fix, and your right fixing ogryns is really difficult.

Ratlings are ok, although I still don’t see why anyone would take them.

Ratlings in our rules are very different, but that's mainly because we changed Sniper Rifles from 'crap' to 'good'. It's too difficult to discuss without discussing the major changes we made to Sniper Rifles, other than to say that we left them at 0-1 as having more than 5 on the table would be quite overpowering (as in, removing-every-heavy-weapon-from-a-Dev-Squad-in-a-single-turn over powering).

Lol I would love to see your rules for these guys, they sound kick ass.

Techpriests are the same. They’re not broken, but don’t need to be fixed either.

They're not very useful. The first step is the upping of the Enginseer's stats so he isn't just a Guardsman in fancy pajamas with a big axe. Allowing more Servitors is another good step - maybe not the gun ones, but the other types definately. We're testing unit sizes up to 10, including the Enginseer. So an Enginseer (WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv3+/4+FNP) and 9 Combat Servitors. Combat-Servitors can either use power weapons (S3) or power fists (S6), and can switch between rounds. Servitors are also Toughness 5 to represent their innate toughness (a FNP wouldn't work for them in the same way it wouldn't work for Ogryn).

Again that sounds really fun, I've always wanted to use Enginseers but I could never think of a way for them to work. 

Troops are kept exactly the same as they are now. Nothing wrong with them.

There are several things wrong with them.

Agreed

For starters, paying 10 points for a Plasma Gun. It's worth 8. 8 for a Grenade Launcher? It's worth 5. 5 for a Flamer as well. 8 points for Heavy Bolters. 14 for ML's and Autocannons. 18 for Lascannons. No Mortars in squads, only in Mortar units.

I definitely agree that mortars should be left out of line squads.  However I disagree with your point costs for ML's and Autocannons, I think they should be 12 pts.

Out Platoons work in a similar way to CHQ's:

1 Platoon Command Section
2-5 Infantry Squads

0-2 Platoon Support Squads

0-1 Combat Engineer Squad
0-1 Comissar

0-1 Platoon Medic
0-1 Platoon Sniper

I think this is a good setup and what I think GW was going for (but failing to get).  What are the prices for the medics, snipers, and commissars?  (of course for me to understand the sniper bit I would need to see your rules).

 

Exactly as it sounds, although no Lascannons in Infantry Platoon Support Squads.

Your definitely right to go about trying to limit the amount of lascannon squads that can be taken, however instead of allowing the IG player to take 4 lascannon squads in his command HQ and none in his infantry platoons, it might work better to allow 0-2 lascannon squads in the command HQ, and 0-1 lascannon squads in the infantry platoons.  (that way the amount of lascannons would be somewhat coherent to the size of the game.

Conscripts can be fired at when they're in HTH with the enemy. Hits hit the enemy, misses hit the Conscripts.

This is a fun rule and it sounds good, but I think their should be some moral penalty to nearby squads, them seeing the horrors of war and all.  Maybe -1 moral to all squads within 12" of the unit firing at the conscripts, and -1 moral for the conscripts.

Armoured Fists are just Infantry Squads with Chimeras, and therefore have the reduced costs for weapons.

Yep

Grenadiers are 8 points per model, do not have Deep Strike/Infiltrate, but are otherwise Storm Troopers with all the same options.

Definitely, stormtroopers are worth 8 pts, period.

Rough Riders are 10 points each, come with Lances, and don't have other options as no one ever takes them except with Lances.

Maybe you could up the points just a bit and let them pull out ccw + las pistols after they fire there lance charges. I have always hated the idea of them using their charges and then not being able to keep fighting.  (I mean come on they have a horse, how hard would it be to carry a sword in its sheath, and a pistol in its holster)

Griffons, LR Exterminators, and other fun things are all restored.

Good, whoever made the codex got lazy at the end and decided, "IG doesn't need variety in their heavy support choices." I strongly disagree with him

Our Hellhound is 95.

That might be a bit cheep, considering what it can do if you use it well; but since most of your point totals are right on, I'll assume you've properly tested this.

Yarrick's had his day? No way.

WTF, I'll tell you when yarricks had his day, and it's not yet, I still have to lose a few more hero bashes with him .

Firstly Yarrick goes back up to T4. He is the only T4 human, and should stay that way. He gets his Force Field, and a FNP save, and Grimaldus/Living Saints ressurect ability. He is hard as nails, as he should be. The current Yarrick is Yarrick-Lite. Yarrick needs to be Yarrick once again - toughest of all non-Marine humans, slayer of Ork Warbosses and taker of grevious wounds! He should be awesome.

Yarrick = kickass!

I wouldn't allow basic Guard to 'always' Infiltrate/Deep Strike.

Drop Troopers would be removed and reserved for an Elysian style list. Mechanised Lists would be a separate list. Special Equipment Doctrines like Carapace Armour and Cameleoline would be taken on a platoon-by-platoon basis, rather than an entire army. Hopeless Doctrines like Jungle Fighters, Hardened Fighters, Cybernetic Enhancements and the like would be removed.

Yes, Storm Troopers and sentinels should be the only squads allowed to deepstrike, full army deepstrike with IG is just ridiculous unless using a special force like the elysians.  Same with mechanised it's just a silly list unless a special mechanized codex is created to balance the list.  (IE lascannon turret chimeras/ twinlinked autocannon turrets)

Doctrine by platoon makes sense, since one platoon could be from one part of the world, while another platoon has come from a different part of the world.  I also agree that the crap doctrines should be removed, and replaced by either better versions of the doctrine (I want a better jungle fighter doctrine badly), or replaced by completely new doctrines.  Also maybe close order drill could be made a universal upgrade for all IG?

And that's just a little bit on what we've done. We've also got rules for different types of Commanders (Tyrants, Heroes, Fanatics), along with specialist formations (Drop Troops, Jungle Fighters, Armoured Companies, Armoured Cavalry, Air Cav, Mechanised).

I'm just curious have you done all of this modifying to all of the lists or just to IG.  Either way most of your ideas for IG are solid.

BYE

see ya.

 

Posted By Stu-Rat on 06/27/2007 6:01 AM
So, while I may agree with some of the suggestions (and not with others), can we please keep it to what GW would likely do rather than what they should/could?

I hate to be the one to have to say this, but when you think about what GW will do it's fairly predictable.

They will eliminate the Armoury and the doctrine system.  Honorifica Imperialis will be removed.  Medallion Crimson will either be removed or become standard equipment for senior officers.  Vox casters may become standard equipment for command squads.

Conscripts will no longer have their own rules - they will have to "count as" regular guard platoons.  Enginseers won't take up slots on the FOC and you will be able to include 1 per vehicle.  Rough Riders will come with hunting lances as standard equipment, and their rules will be "simplified".  Hunting lances will be represented by a straight +1S and furious charge.  No more power weapons for the first combat.

Basically just take the first 3rd ed IG codex, add Enginseers, Heavy Weapon Platoons, and Special Weapon squads, and drop the Armoury.  Then you'll have a good idea of what the next IG codex will look like.

I wanted it noted I wasn't the first to say what they really would do...

I'd posit they'd permit every unit to be carried in a chimera as transport. the chimera might have an additional autocannon option.

They might remove sentinels and heavy weapons units from the command HQ.

There is nothing to see here GW...these aren't the droids you're looking for...the marines need a redux..the marines need a redux...

Here are a few other options to fix guard:

1)Option for Guardsmen to take power armor
2) Lasguns all have rending
3) Sentinels have 2d6 attacks in hth that are S8 dreadnaught CCW
4) Access to titans for 1/3 of their cost
5) Baneblade at 1/3 of the cost
6) Officers with demonprince stats
7) Godzilla Guard (Orgyrns with T6 and 4 wound monsterous creatures)
8) Vehicles have holofields and demonic possestion
9) Access to Exterminatus
10) Targeters for all troops

And Borg. If they don't have futuristic bug humans, they have the great robot collective thingy.

And as far as giving credit to GW for the concepts - yes, I do give them great credit. The backstory and setting is about the only thing GW does right. That and nice models. Prices, customer support and worst of all rules are frickin' terrible, but I don't play the game because of those three - I play 'cause I love the story. That bit they got right. Now if they could only manage to get the rest of it right.

We've done a similar thing, but in a different way.

In our standard Guard list, the Officer always has a Retinue. I like the idea of an Officer having an attendant staff of men that accompany him, so that stayed.

In our 'Hero' list, where the Commander is a hotheaded, lead-from-the-front style of commander, we have Heroic Senior Officers and Heroic Junior Officers. They come as ICs and purchase retinues of up to 9 other men, to represent the fact that sometimes they will go it alone, sometimes they'll just join a squad in their army and lead them, and sometime they have a large group of staff that they always fight with.

+2 sounds about right since there still toughness 3 save 5+, and on top of that IG gets free moral boosts in the command squads anyways.

Yes. +2 just makes sense. They get another attack and Ld8, they're basically a Veteran Guardsmen in a lot of ways. They're 8 points, why woulda  Vet Sergeant be 12? Doesn't make sense, so +2 points it became. 

I think it would be better to let the standard bearer be an adviser since it's unfair to make your HQ have to carry the burden of having the best moral unit.

I like the idea of the Colour Sergeant flying the Commander's flag. And I wouldn't call it a burden either.

It actually works in different ways in each of the armies:

Standard - Same as it does now.
Hero - Standard Bearer and Officers have an 18" radius. No access to Iron Discipline (they lead their men by example, not harsh punishment).

Tyrant - Standard Bearer and Officers have 6" Radius, and the army must have more Commissars than Officers, as the Commissars keep order.
Fanatic - Every Command Section has to have a Standard Bearer, and the whole army is fanatically crazy!!!

In my rules Medics can join units - they're IC's - and they give unit a 5+ FNP save but lose their radius until they leave the unit. And I don't see how a Medic could help someone when they're on a horse, purley from a physical standpoint.

Oh, and how would this work in close combat?

If you are a model within range of the Medic, you get the FNP save - being in HTH or whatever makes no difference. Yes, it's a heavy abstraction, but it's required to make Medics worth it.

Medics are 20 points BTW.

If you read my post, I think I came up with a pretty good fix to this.

We have the similar system for paying for powers, but the powers are different. The idea behind them is that Sanctioned Psykers are cheap (10 points each), have Guardsman Statlines but A2 and Ld8 and have access to very cheap powers (between 5-15 points). Telepathic Order is there, Lightning Arc (but in its true 2nd Ed 40K glory, so R24 S6 AP3 Assault D6), plus some others, including one a similar one to the original Psykers from Dawn of War Winter Assault, a power very similar to the Tyranid Warp Blast, except if the Psyker is unable to cast the power, he explodes, killing everyone around him.

They should be treated as psychic cannon fodder - men moved around to do their masters bidding and thrown away whenever it suits them.

We then went and re-added an old unit from 2nd Ed, the Primaris Battle Psyker - the human psyker trained in Psychic Combat - very powerful, very deadly, with a better selection of powers, more access to psychic equipment like Force Weapons and Psychic Hoods, and is an actual HQ choice.

We wanted to emphasise that there are two classes of psykers in the Imperial Guard, the ones that are taken by the Guard and used as living weapons until they are literally burnt out, and the ones that are taken to special training facilities to become competant fighters that can assist in battle on a much more controlled level.



I have to disagree here. Veterans are the only place to get Infiltrating BS4 heavy weapons, and I envision them being line squads that help out the main battleline, which they are far more suited to than Storm Troopers, or squads that move forward with a lot of shorter ranged weaponry (Meltas, Shotguns, HTH weapons, etc.).

The Veteran Platoon idea is an interesting one. I don't think I'd make them Fearless, but a lot of the other ideas are good.

In our rules we classified Guard into three different types:

Hammer Armies - Armoured Companies, Mechanised Infantry and Armoured Cavalry (ie. a mix of Armoured Company and MechInf).
Anvil Armies - Standard Guard armies. Good mix of tanks, infantry with a few specialist units.
Rapier Armies - Specialist armies, including Drop Troops, Air Cavalry (Valk & Vulture support... not that any of us own any Valks or Vultures yet(!)), Jungle/City Fighters, etc.

The Veteran Platoon would be quite good for a Rapier-style army, where there are less troops, but they are all... well... hardened Veterans, capable of more than your average Guardsmen fresh out of bootcamp.



It's an ugly solution, but it is a solution that achieves the job we wanted - Ogryn can still be insta-killed, but a single power fist won't wipe out 75% of a unit in a single round of HTH combat. The problem with Ogryn will always remain that what they are in the fluff runs contrary to the general rules of 40K, which is why horrible abstractions like the 4+(I) 'Faith in the Emperor' save has to exist.

I'm sure GW will try to fix it by giving Ogryn Rending attacks, just like they give every other unit...

Again that sounds really fun, I've always wanted to use Enginseers but I could never think of a way for them to work.

In our rules Heavy Weapons function a little differently.

We have two levels of Infantry - Infantry and Heavy Infantry.

This affects everything from movement (Infantry can give up shooting to move an extra 3", Heavy Infantry cannot), to shooting heavy weapons (Infantry can move and fire heavy weapons with a -1 To Hit penalty, Heavy Infantry suffer no such penalty).

We classify things like Broadsides, Terminators, Tyrant Guard and, you guessed it, Servitors as Heavy Infantry.

This means that a Tech-Priest can take a little unit of 4 Gun Serivotrs, and walk around shooting. They're great fun, pack a lot of firepower, and cannot be ignored by the enemy. I have used them (and their Space Marine counter-parts) with great success.

I definitely agree that mortars should be left out of line squads.  However I disagree with your point costs for ML's and Autocannons, I think they should be 12 pts.

In current 40K... maybe. In our 40K, they're worth 14.

One thing that has always bugged us is the AP system. It's a huge abstraction, and quite clunky. Where the AP system dies it with weapons like the Autocannon, a weapon that can punch a blast a tank in two, but can't go through power armour. It didn't make any sense.

As such, we tried Autocannons at AP3. Way to powerful, you never took anything else. Reaper Autocannons were a nightmare!!! So, we tried something else, borrowing a thing from Necromunda.

It was the 'High Impact' system. In a similar thing to 'Gets Hot!' and 'Lance' and 'Melta', 'High Impact' became an attribute that could be assigned to some weapons. It would reduce their armour save by 1, so a Marine has to take a 4+ save against a wound from an Autocannon. It still has AP4, so Sv4+ troops and below are always ignored, but it means that 2+ and 3+ types have to pay attention to what is in my opinion one of the best weapons in the game.

With High Impact, Autocannons are worth 14 points.

Missile Launchers are also different. Missile Launchers, Eldar ML's, Tau Missile Pods, HK Missiles, Havoc Launchers, etc., all gained the 'Guided' rule. This means that they always hit on a 3+ or better, no matter what, but unlike other heavy weapons must remain stationary to fire. As our rules have modifiers to hit (Land Speeder or Vyper moving 24" is -1 To Hit, Holo-Fields give a -1 To Hit rather than the idiotically overpowered roll 2D6 and pick lowest for damage), having Guided weapons makes a great deal of difference, so, again, they're worth 14 points on a Guardsman.

I think this is a good setup and what I think GW was going for (but failing to get).  What are the prices for the medics, snipers, and commissars?  (of course for me to understand the sniper bit I would need to see your rules).

Medics, as I said, are 20 points. Snipers are 30. Commissars are 30.

Medics you know their rules. Commissars execute people to make them not run away.

Snipers... well... might as well give you a brief rundown of the rules.

Ok, Sniper Rifles hit on BS (so the abilities of the firer actually make a difference, they don't just hit on a 2+). They always wound on a 2+, and they're AP2. They can also pick the model that takes the hit if they roll a 4+ when rolling to hit (thinking about changing that to 5+ however). Snipers have the 'Invisible' rule (our generic, catch-all term for those units that benefit from Night Fight, like Stealth Suits), and gain +1 to Cover Saves.

So as you can see, a unit of Ratlings that fires off 5 shots that hit on a 3+, wound on a 2+, are AP2 and some of them can pick their casualties... yeah, there's a reason they're 0-1.

Currently the main problems we have when testing snipers is that:

 

A). The picking casualties on a 4+ was a bit OTT.
B). They tear Walkers to bits (walkers in our rules are all like the Wraithlord, so they're not vehicles but have a Toughness Value/Wounds/Armour Save... some are small, like T4(5) W2 Sv4+ for a Sentinel, to big, such as T8 W3 Sv3+ for Marine/Chaos/Ork Dreads/Wraithlords).

We have a big rules council meeting next weekend where we're bringing the rulebook to, hopefully, Version 1.0, so we'll iron that part out later. We've been playtesting for over 3 years now, so we're getting there.

We've been attempting to avoid any arbitrary limitations on weapons and equipment. For me it makes no sense, nor any fluff sense, than Infantry Platoons can only get 1, yet CHQs can get 2. What makes more fluff sense is that the really heavy anti-tank weapon units are restricted to HQ and dedicated Heavy Weapon platoons, whereas the more general support weapons (Heavy Bolters, Mortars, ACs and MLs) can go anywhere.

That and I wanted to avoid having an 'AT Squad' and an 'FS Squad', hence the simplification of a 'Support Squad' that has certain weapon options.

This is a fun rule and it sounds good, but I think their should be some moral penalty to nearby squads, them seeing the horrors of war and all.  Maybe -1 moral to all squads within 12" of the unit firing at the conscripts, and -1 moral for the conscripts.

They're Conscripts! No one cares about Conscripts. Ok, in the Hero army, squads have to take Ld checks to fire into combats involving Conscripts, but otherwise - they're there to die.

Definitely, stormtroopers are worth 8 pts, period.

With BS4, our over-charged Hellguns, the ability to fire out to 36" if they don't move, and inherent Deep Strike & Infiltration, they are worth 10 each. Grenadiers, who do not have DS/Infitrate, they're worth 8.

Maybe you could up the points just a bit and let them pull out ccw + las pistols after they fire there lance charges. I have always hated the idea of them using their charges and then not being able to keep fighting.  (I mean come on they have a horse, how hard would it be to carry a sword in its sheath, and a pistol in its holster)

We let them reload their Lances. Problem solved.

Good, whoever made the codex got lazy at the end and decided, "IG doesn't need variety in their heavy support choices." I strongly disagree with him

I own every Guard tank GW/FW makes except the Thunderer, Destroyer, Conquerer, Hydra, Salamander Scout and Salamander Command. I have 30 Leman Russ hulls (of varying type), 25 Chimera Hulls ranging from Chimeras to Manticores, plus a Macharius, a Baneblade and a Stormblade. I want variety, not to be told that I get Russes, Demolishers and that's it.

Griffons are fantastic, Exterminators are magnificant in CityFight, Bombards put other artillery to shame, and siege formations of 6 Demolishers... well... they just look cool. Everything should be in there in one way or another.

In our rules not all armies have access to everything. For instance, the Hero army is often under-supplied and lacking specialist equipment, so Vanquishers, Leman Russ Annihilators and things like that are not present. They do get a heavier presence of the basic Russ Hulls, and we've allowed 0-1 Demolisher as a non-compulsory Troops choice. The Tyrant army on the other hand, has access to everything - Manticores, Bombards, specialist tank and artillery shells - the works.

And all of this comes into the Doctrines. Doctrines in our are more about buying specialist units and equipment than they are about game-altering special abilities. Things like Iron Discipline and Close Order Drill are inherent to the list, and things like Drop Troops and Mechanised are their own sub-lists. The Doctrines are about deciding between Vanquishers and Executioners, between Carapace Armour for your Infantry or Grenaider Platoons (yes, I said platoons). They're about adding fun stuff to your army, not giving you a massive advantage (like Drop Troopers) for free.

That might be a bit cheep, considering what it can do if you use it well; but since most of your point totals are right on, I'll assume you've properly tested this

At the end of the day it's an AV12 tank with a 24" range that has to have LOS to fire, and is often not in cover. To add to that, people have an irrational fear of Hellhounds, so they often become prime targets. They're simply not worth a whole heap of points. The price is also geared so that with Smoke, Extra Armour, Rough Terrain Mods and a Pintle Stubber it comes to 120 points (Smoke in our lists is 5, not 3, and Stubbers are 10, not 12).

I'm just curious have you done all of this modifying to all of the lists or just to IG.  Either way most of your ideas for IG are solid.

We have the rulebook written, Codex: Eldar and Codex: Space Marines nearly done, Codex: Daemonhunters and Codex: Tyranids right behind them, with Codex: Tau, Orks, Guard and Chaos Marines in the process of being finished. We've been doing this for years, and it taught us that writing detailed rules are not easy. Thankfully, GW makes so many mistakes and makes them so often, we had an easy example of what not to do. So, in the end, despite the fact that we wrote this because we hated 4th and were sick of GW's (mis)treatment of the rules, they actually helped us by giving us a framework of how not to write rules. Funny that...

BYE

 

H.B.M.C do your rules have a yahoogroup to join or a download yet? It really sound like the kind of game I want to play!

On a side note about ogryns, you could always make the 4+ inv be only in HTH, which would be like DE Wyches. This way lascannons, MLs can do their work appropriately, but yet the ogryns would be able to have survivability in HTH even against PF. Any thoughts about giving Ogryns have Choppa equivalents?

I was pondering this one. I think "Immune to instant death" would be appropriate for Ogryn within the leadership radius of an officer, for reasons akin to why ork red trukks go faster. Call it "Da Emperor's Will" - Ogryn simply are not allowed to die easily in front of an officer. (Ruleswise, it's analogous with Tyranid synapse ID immunity.)

And bring back "It's dark in dere." Great flavor. Let me attach a Commissar pre-battle, though, if I want.

Damn, HBMC, your rules are pretty cool. I would love ot play an IG army like what you have described. You guys should send your stuff to GW and have all the Dakka clan send them emails asking them to review it for consideration. Nothing would probably happen, but hell, its a chance.

I really like a lot of what you have going, the rules for the platoons in spot on IMO. Each platoon should have everything it needs to handle any tactical situation.

I really like a lot of these rules, the only thing i would really change would be Ogryns. I would go with toughness 5, 2 wounds and give the Bonehead a power weapon option, or give the squad the choppa rule.

Other than that, i think it is pretty awesome and definitely worth at least attempting to get GW to look at.

HBMC and I have been writing these rules for a few years, along with a few other guys in our gaming group.

The biggest problem I see with trying to get GW to notice them is that GW is trying to achieve a different vision to us.

Right now, the GW trend is towards considerable simplification (ala Dark Angels, new Chaos Codex, etc). They are trying to ensure that their whole base can use the Codexen, right down to the younger munchkins (it seems).

We have a different vision. We are trying to have a somewhat more sophisticated system that is designed for the more mature gamer. We aren't hideously overcomplicating things (ala some rules from 2nd ed), but we aren't afraid at fleshing things out a bit more, but only where needed. We counterbalance that with a desire for what I would call "balanced elegance". We don't want arbitary restrictions, useless units and boxed-in Codices. We want people to have a fluffy and balanced army, because that is the best way to play the army, not because you are forced to play that way.

Much of our impetus came initially from the problems facing 3rd ed (and the Eldar Codex specifically). Having seen 4th ed and the trend to simplification, indeed sometimes to excess (majority toughness, leadership based shooting, etc), combined with GW's unwillingness to confront certain key issues & problems (units only ever being able to fire at one target, vehicle rules continuing to make them main battle bunkers vs main battle tanks, etc) has led us to the Revisited Project. It's a patch, but a rather large one :-)

We hold out some hope that GW may come to see the gaming world as we do one day. However, I believe that is quite some distance away.

Pity; they have such great ideas. It's just that the implementation continues to baffle us. Sometimes it is a matter of disagreement re: design choice; sometimes it is a matter of style. And then sometimes, we just don't have a clue why they have made a particular choice.

Falcons with Holo-fields are a case in point. Perfect chance to fix something terribly broken....and it just becomes more expensive. I don't understand that for the life of me, and I'm an Eldar fanatic to boot!

I think that given the interest that is being expressed in Revisited, I'll see about setting up some download links again. We are due to have a meeting in a little over a week's time with the full group to discuss the next version of the rulebook and nail it down.

Thanks for the encouragement, even if directed to HBMC :-)

Well, he is th emost vocale member of your group on these boards anyway =)

But i definitely like the direction you all are taking. I enjoy complexity as long as it flows smoothly within the framework of the game. 2nd ed was fun, but just a bit too much. Perhaps one day you all could publish a 40K advanced style suppliment, who knows, anything is possible. Or at the least put out your rules for those people inthe community who would want to use them.

At any rate, it sounds like you all are enjoying the process, which is the most important part.

We have had some preliminary brainstorming on a 40K Avanced ruleset. Right now my main thoughts is whether we stick with a D6 system or more to D10, as a D10 allows a lot more in the way of variety for a more complicated game.

BYE

Heck, move to percentile dice along the model of Inquisitor...

Ok, hopefully this works:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/revisited_project/

That's where some of the files are for now.

BYE