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As for the T3(5) situation,

I thought
a S4 weapon would need a 5+,
a S5 weapon would need a 4+,
a S6 weapon would need a 3+ and insta kill,
a S7+ weapon would need a 2+ and insta kill.

Just because you are double their base toughness,
doesn't mean you roll against the base to work out wounding.

You still have to wound the increased toughness and then it will insta kill.


I'm pretty sure that's the RAW,
but please correct me if I'm mistaken.

:-)

Yeah, Malaketh is right.

The S6 weapon may Insta-kill the Krootox, but it still needs a 3+ to wound, not a 2+.

BYE

Evading a powerfist can be attributed to their size, but a krak missile or lascannon should be able to vaporize an Ogryn, especially since they have little armour. It's the same problem that Tyranid Warriors had before the Hive Mind learned to magically hold their pieces together.

I'm not denying that T5 makes the unit effective, not just from a points perspective but by adding an element of tactics and character otherwise unavailable. They're an actual legitimate tarpit, rather than just throwing waves of bodies at a target and hoping at least one squad remains stuck in close combat.

Yeah, thats the problem with IG. The whole waves of bodies thing. It sucks when models that can be quite complicated to paint are just another number in a sea of khaki and green. Then what good is it when they run 10 at a time?

Thanks for the clarification, Malaketh. That makes a lot more sense than the way I thought it worked.

Hmm, I guess it's about time for me to cozy up with the BGB and reread some of this stuff. I'm getting a bit rusty.

CK

Stu-Rat wrote:Okay, this is intended to be a thread on how GW can update the existing Codex: Imperial Guard

In general, I would agree with your thoughts.

Minis-wise, Cadians are the standard, and it will be nice to see Valhallan/Krieg, but plastic Cameoline Tallarn/Tanith "light infantry" are more sorely needed, along with plastic Carapace Kasrkin/Stormtroopers. Also, the Leman Russ tank is old and doesn't match the advances in the Chimera, much less Baneblade. A plastic Valkyrie Skimmer Transport would an awesome and popular addition.

I agree that Doctrines generally need to go away if only for parity with Kults, Legions, Craftworlds.

HQ
I think the Command Squad should be SO/HSO with "free" Master Vox - take the 12" away and just let Officers lead via Vox. I don't much like the current Command Platoon, with so many squads attached. I think it concentrates too much in the HQ. I'd rather see 0-1 Heavy, 0-1 Special per Platoon to emphasize Platoon structure. Let the Command lead and the Platoons fight!

Advisors should all be ICs for free - this dumps a ton of unneeded rules and complexity. Psyker can go up in points and stats with mini-Hood and choice of *useful* attacking power.

Veterans don't need Combat Squads - they're plenty good enough as shooters as it is, and losing the 0-1 restriction just makes them better. In fact, they're so good, they can stand to *lose* Infiltrate. Like SM Veterans / CSM Chosen, IG Veterans will probably have Heavy even at min size - only Troops need to be 10-strong per Heavy weapon.

I like the idea of FNP Ogryns, as Sv4+ does nothing against HBs and ACs.

Stormtroopers are still a problem unit. Deep Strike should be included, and I'm not adverse to Infiltrate. But the S3 Hellgun is the big problem. I *really* like the suggestion for RF S4 AP6 / RF S6 AP3 "hot"` - that is awesomely useful and powerful enough that they won't need more than the couple Special Weapons. If Stormtroopers gain DS, Sv4+, *and* a S4 / S6 gun, that's enough to differentiate them from Veterans.

I'd prefer to keep Ratlings as the Cameoline / Infiltrate Elites. They can be a little cheaper - it wouldn't hurt.

Techpriests aren't worth a slot - make them an Advisor.

Troops

Per my note above, I'm not at all adverse to changing Troops a little. I think that regular Platoons should have 1 Heavy and 1 Special each. I'm not a huge fan of Conscripts as Guardsmen lite - they could be more interesting. Definitely, regular Platoons should be able to Mechanize, and some form of Grenadiers (Carapace) & Light Infantry (Cameoline) Platoons would be nice.

Transports

When you see DA Rhinos at 35 pts, the Chimera is overpriced, especially with AV10 sides and Non-Scoring. Take away Amphibious and start at 40 or 45 pts for bare AV12/11/10. Then add a couple HB/HFs for 15 pts, and it's 55-60 pts total, 70-75 pts with Extra Armour.

Fast

As above, I'd like to see Valkyrie added as a Skimmer Transport (NOT Flyer). I don't like the Salamander as a Fast Tank - that just doesn't fit well with the IG themes. IG don't even have 24" move Bikes, so a 24" move TANK is a bad fit. A Valkyrie would sell well, and give IG some much-needed non-dedicated Transport options.

Sentinel is cool, but I'd almost like to see them also gain DS & Infiltrate...

Heavy

I think the Russ kit needs to be redone, and I'd love to see the Exterminator return as an option. Same with the Griffon.

Characters
I'd like to see
- Yarrick (his Baneblade features in Apoc)
- Gaunt (because of the novel, and because I want Cameoline infantry in plastic)
- Last Chancers
- Nork Deddog, Ogryn Bodyguard (no slot)

Creed is OK, but not inspiring - bringing back the Tallarn & other guys isn't interesting.

Doctrines
I'm OK with Cameoline & Carapace, but think they should be Platoon-wide options, not squad options.

I'm not a big fan of Iron Discipline or COD - I think they were overused and not well-themed (IG aren't Napoleonics!). I'd rather see all Officers and with the equivalent of "free" Master Vox and all units with the equivalent of "free" Vox as the new Ld model.

I don't like the idea of Guard Infantry gaining DS or Infiltrate. I'd prefer the bulk of the Guard to be basic guys, not super-sneaky Elites.

A lot of people in here love the vox casters. Those things are garbage, you have a two foot diameter circle with your officers. Just keep your guardmen close.

I would love to see the guard codex redone, though my biggest concern at this time is that they will do away with chem-inhalers. I know that the consensus feel its a wasted doctrine, but for 10 points NEVER taking a negative modifier AND keeping your guardsmen around... i love it.

I would like to see something a little stranger occur.

Required HQ structure with the command platoon should stay.
The cost for priests and commissars should be changed, they have great abilities but are over priced and having to place them in the command platoon first limits there flexibility. Can only be placed in command squads
Psykers definitely need a hood, and their abilities could use a tweak, the fact the 1 is no useable skill pfffffft just tell me you don't want me to use them. The psykers in Dawn of War are MUCH more fun to use. Perhaps make chain lightning assault instead of heavy. make command radius from 18" to 24"
I would like to see a structure that requires a command chain, Colonel, Captain, Major with Sergeants
Stroomtrooper bodyguard options

Elites
Special weapons squads should be here. taken in 1-3 per slot

Vets are also 1-3 per slot keeps with the platoon theme

Stormtroopers. Hellgun needs to be S4/AP- they are the same price as a sister of battle unit but with a worse save and a worse weapon. and because of ally rules... you can take SoB
I love the unit, not nearly as useful outside of min squads in a chimera though. 3 special weapons instead of 2 and should come with DS. Buy infiltrate for them. Combat squad rules.

Feel no Pain on a bunch of 3 wound models would be overpowering if you asked me. I would like to see the Bone head be able to take a power weapon. if they stay armour 5+ they should be T4(5) or T5 flat so they can't be instant killed by fists.

Troops
I would like to see what they did with the chaos codex instead of doctrines
a platoon of cameoline infiltrating sniper tanith
a platoon of carapace sharp shooting cod cadians
a platoon of mechanised cheminhaling steel legion
a platoon of hardenfighter jungle troop catachan

i don't feel that the valhallan and tallarn basic doctrines are too unique outside of having priests and independent commisars... not sure if they need to be added or not.

conscripts are fine if you ask me i don't take them so its hard to form an opinion, under new advisor rules and no independent they should have a commissar upgrade
regular platoons work fine, i like the idea of one heavy weapon squad per platoon though and maybe... one sentinel squadron?
Chimeras - AV 11 on the sides, 24" range on hull mounted lasguns and permit the lasguns to fire forward. that makes the chimera able to fire a lot more shots. drop the cost to 70, comes with hull, smoke, armor

Fast
if sentinels stay fast... it would be great if they could fleet, if not move them to platoon support lower cost at least
Hellhound i love this tank, i can't see much changing maybe allow it to fire even if it moves 12"? that might be too good though hahaha
Platoon Rough Riders 1-3 per slot... T4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and A2, as well as come with Frag grenades. Lance is the same
Ratlings - or Snipers - Infiltrate + Scout CRAZY I KNOW! Why scout if they aren't going to assault? tactical denial of infiltrators, if the unit is not ratlings it is a 3-6 man squad of snipers.
Need something else in this area.

Heavy
Heavy platoons are with the Troops now.
Russ, Demo, Basilisk - perhaps lower the cost slightly on each? no more than 10 pts. i say this because the current rule set makes them very very brittle... they are awesome though

smart_alex wrote:A lot of people in here love the vox casters. Those things are garbage, you have a two foot diameter circle with your officers. Just keep your guardmen close.

If the 12" radius goes away in favor of FREE Vox, that would be better for everyone - faster to play, and even more Officer oriented.

paidinfull wrote:Special weapons squads should be here. taken in 1-3 per slot
Vets are also 1-3 per slot keeps with the platoon theme
Platoon Rough Riders 1-3 per slot...

Troops
I would like to see what they did with the chaos codex instead of doctrines
a platoon of cameoline infiltrating sniper tanith
a platoon of carapace sharp shooting cod cadians
a platoon of mechanised cheminhaling steel legion
a platoon of hardenfighter jungle troop catachan

If Special Weapons & Vets are 1-3 squads per slot, then Stormtroopers are even more useless! Veterans and SWS are great - they don't need improvement, and if anything, a minor downgrade is probably OK. If SWS, Vets, and RR are 1-3 per slot, then that de-empasizes Platoons as Troops.

I agree that a series of defined Platoons would be good, but adding rules would be OTT. Just giving the equipment options of Cameoline / Carapace / Mechanized would be enough to make them desirable relative to standard Platoons.

Well anything free is always good. I could not argue with you there.

paidinfull wrote:Feel no Pain on a bunch of 3 wound models would be overpowering if you asked me. I would like to see the Bone head be able to take a power weapon. if they stay armour 5+ they should be T4(5) or T5 flat so they can't be instant killed by fists.

Isn't FNP negated by ID, though? So adding it would only made Ogryns better at shrugging off weapons in the lasgun to autocannon range, something they're not exactly poor at right now (their weakness is in the fact they can't withstand any kind of close combat).

Ogryns are worse than guardsmen vs any S8 or better model, especially if it relies on its save e.g. a Carnifex

I think powerfists will get a nerfing in 5th edition, this'd give Ogryns a boost through the back door (so to speak).

Here is what needs to be fixed in the IG codex

1. Lose the 12 inch command thing. Give every IG platoon a vox instead.
2. Drop the advisor rules leave advisors at the same point cost. Just taking away the advisor rule will make the Commisor and Preist allot better.
3. Tech Priests should not take up a FO clot
4. Ogryns should be toughness 5
5. Chimeras should get a point drop, but not a huge . With extra armor they should be real close to what htey currently are. without less.
6. Drop infiltrate from vets.
7. Frag and krak grenades for free for Storm Troopers drop Infiltrate.
8. No plasma guns in Troop Platoons. Plamsa is rare. A trooper in a normal squad would not get a gun. A Vet would, a trooper in a command squad would.
9. Sentinals point drop. Make them closed toped at their current price. Give them fleet of foot.
10. Add some russ varients into the regualr codex.

Captain Sturn wrote:2. Drop the advisor rules leave advisors at the same point cost. Just taking away the advisor rule will make the Commisor and Preist allot better.

I'm not seeing how a commissar is worth 40 points as long as terminators are also worth 40 points. I'm really not seeing how a powerfist on a S3, T3, 5+ save model is worth 20 points.

5. Chimeras should get a point drop, but not a huge

Razorbacks in new codexes cost 50 points with a twin-linked BS 4 heavy bolter, which is a 20 point price drop. Chimeras currently cost 85 with a BS3 multilaser and heavy bolter, and produce 0.16 more MEQ wounds per turn in that configuration. They should probably drop down to around

6. Drop infiltrate from vets.
7. Frag and krak grenades for free for Storm Troopers drop Infiltrate.

To what purpose would you remove infiltrate?

8. No plasma guns in Troop Platoons. Plamsa is rare. A trooper in a normal squad would not get a gun. A Vet would, a trooper in a command squad would.

Plasma is rare in the Imperium in the sense that there are only enough weapons to give every squad a plasma gun instead of every guardsman a plasma gun. Removing plasma guns from line squads would only further neuter the guard codex. Plasma guns are currently priced appropriately (ie. according to their statistical performance) when compared to marine plasma guns. Guard lascannons are currently 1.7 times too expensive compared to the Dark/Blood Angel prices. They would need to cost 15 points to be as good as DA/BA lascannons. Note that the point costs for lascannons and plasma guns are not counting the fact that a MEQ squad is six times more survivable against small arms fire than a GEQ squad.

Your proposed changes seem designed to weaken the Guard Codex, when it is in dire need to strengthening.

Captain Sturn wrote:Here is what needs to be fixed in the IG codex
1. Lose the 12 inch command thing. Give every IG platoon a vox instead.

Agree, as long as Vox is FREE - IG Command is overpriced as-is for the fragility, but unlimited Command range would be a fair boon and necessary to encourage mobility.

2. Drop the advisor rules leave advisors at the same point cost. Just taking away the advisor rule will make the Commisor and Preist allot better.

Generally agreed on Advisors rule being pointless, especially at current costs. I'd suggest "Advisor" models costs 20-25 pts and operate as ICs. I'd like Commissar and Priest to grant Fearless.

3. Tech Priests should not take up a FO clot

Agreed.

4. Ogryns should be toughness 5

They're still human, but I'd be OK with FNP.

5. Chimeras should get a point drop, but not a huge . With extra armor they should be real close to what htey currently are. without less.

A huge drop is warranted 50 pts base, like a Razorback is very fair, with the extra gun and AV11 sides instead of BS4.

6. Drop infiltrate from vets.

Agree. Vets are way too good as-is. Losing Infiltrate makes Ratlings and Storms more competitive.

7. Frag and krak grenades for free for Storm Troopers drop Infiltrate.

Grenades won't fix Storms. Storms need a S4 Hellgun, not a S3 flashlight! Considering that they take the Terminator role, FREE automatic Deep Strike would work well for them.

8. No plasma guns in Troop Platoons. Plamsa is rare. A trooper in a normal squad would not get a gun. A Vet would, a trooper in a command squad would.

Nah. Plasma Gun rarity is more than adequately reflected in the 1 per squad upgrade limit. There is no need to penalize IG players for taking Platoons with BS3 T3 Sv 5+ Plasma Guns.

9. Sentinals point drop. Make them closed toped at their current price. Give them fleet of foot.

Agree that ACC is overpriced, but I'd rather amp these up with free Infiltrate and always Deep Strike (represents breaking deep cover) instead of Fleet.

10. Add some russ varients into the regualr codex.

Agree. Free swap down to (inferior) Exterminator would be good for variety and theme.

8. No plasma guns in Troop Platoons. Plamsa is rare. A trooper in a normal squad would not get a gun. A Vet would, a trooper in a command squad would.

Nah. Plasma Gun rarity is more than adequately reflected in the 1 per squad upgrade limit. There is no need to penalize IG players for taking Platoons with BS3 T3 Sv 5+ Plasma Guns.

Plasma is a rariety the average the way the current codex is plasma is all you see. Even if you take it away from normal squads.
Command Squads, Vets, Strom Troopers, and Special Wepaon squads all would have access to them, and refelct better on who the guard would hand out rare plasma weapons to.

2. Drop the advisor rules leave advisors at the same point cost. Just taking away the advisor rule will make the Commisor and Preist allot better.

Generally agreed on Advisors rule being pointless, especially at current costs. I'd suggest "Advisor" models costs 20-25 pts and operate as ICs. I'd like Commissar and Priest to grant Fearless.

Keep in mind commisars have 2 wounds, but giving them IC would not allow them to have a damge shield of gaurds around them. Think your right though 30 points IC. Can execute to reroll a failed morale check for commisars. Priests get rid of counts as moving, and make it must charge if in assualt range. Fearless nah furious charge perhaps or somthing else morale based. Fearless would make the priests a must buy unit every game.

Ogryns you are right toughness 5 is to much they have 3 wounds already. FNP does nothing in CC think the solution is to not make them tougher maybe less expensive.

Scout move point cut and fleet on sentinals would make them a more viable unit with out over powering them and fit the fluff.

Storm troopers are a tough nut to crack as they have some benifits and draw backs ( 4+ save 4 BS 2 special weapons, Deep strike, infiltrate).

Captain Sturn wrote:Plasma is a rariety the average the way the current codex is plasma is all you see. Even if you take it away from normal squads.

First, it isn't broken. Second, the fact that you can't take 1 Lascannon and 9 Plasma is how Plasma is "rare". If you take Plasma from Platoons, then you're basically penalizing players for taking more Troops.

Keep in mind commisars have 2 wounds, but giving them IC would not allow them to have a damge shield of gaurds around them. Think your right though 30 points IC. Can execute to reroll a failed morale check for commisars. Priests get rid of counts as moving, and make it must charge if in assualt range. Fearless nah furious charge perhaps or somthing else morale based. Fearless would make the priests a must buy unit every game.

If someone wants to spend a ton of points on Priests, the IG player is spending 80+ pts for a FEARLESS WS3 BS3 S3 T3 Sv5+ squad, which probably isn't very efficient use of points.

Ogryns you are right toughness 5 is to much they have 3 wounds already. FNP does nothing in CC think the solution is to not make them tougher maybe less expensive.

Huh? FNP works against CC attacks. Just not Power Fists and Power Weapons. But that's not a real problem - Ogryns will still be plenty tough against normal stuff.

Scout move point cut and fleet on sentinals would make them a more viable unit with out over powering them and fit the fluff.

My understanding is that Sentinels are sneaky, not fast-moving. Fleet is bad, because Sentinels should be shooting every turn. But being able to place an inexpensive Scoring unit anywhere on the board via Deep Strike is really better than Scout when you consider 40k is moving to Objectives missions.

Storm troopers are a tough nut to crack as they have some benifits and draw backs ( 4+ save 4 BS 2 special weapons, Deep strike, infiltrate).

Stormtroops are much worse than Veterans. Especially if you buy them DS and Infiltrate. 12 pts for only 2 Special weapons vs 8 pts for a Heavy and 3 Special Weapons? Veterans need to go down (no Infiltrate), and Storms need to go up (S4 Gun, always DS) to rebalance.

gota disagree with ya on somethings.


Ogryns whats the purpose of giving them FNP they have 3 wounds. 3 wounds FNP would be way unbalancing. Point drop is better solution.

With your purposed combo ogryns with priests would be what you see all over the place. So your s 3 t 3 5+ sv is not the unit the fearless is gona be applied to. its gona be applied to conscripts and ogryns.

Sentinals are no way as sneaky as lictors. They are fast moving walkers capable of picking their way through terrain. Scout move and fleet would let you flank them around and capture objectives. With decrease in points they would be a very valid unit.

Storm Troopers give them dont pay for deep strike, but str 4 hellguns i dont think is the answer. With the number of heavy weapons and ordenence you cna throw in a guard list having a str 4 basic unit would be unbalcancing with the number of strom troopers you can field. So leave them at 12 give them deep strike for free and add in frag and krak gernades for free. (IG armies with str 4 hell guns would be grenadiers, ogryns, and preists with tanks as support.)

Vets drop Infiltrate Up point cost to 9 a model.

Why is it that quite a few of you are pointing out the differences in point cost between IG and other Armies? The point cost given is reflective to the use and availability of the weapons/units in the races army. The guy who said that space marine lascannons are quite cheap compared to a guardmens. This is true, but seeing as they are the elite of the imperium it fits that they would have quite a few lascannons available thus lowering they're cost. Plasma guns should also be even rarer in the guard for the same reason. If space marines can only take one per squad instead of all them taking them, then there is no way that Imp Guards could do the same for basic troops. Also, the reason that space marines especially Dark Angels, got a 35 point rino is that the point cost went up significantly on Drop Pods. From 35 to 50. So this just meant that instead of deep striking now we can all get on the board at once but we move faster until someone shoots the hell out of our 10 10 10 vehicle. Which usually takes two turns. (We have integrated smoke.)

Plus, isn't the point of a Guard army to take as many bodies as possbile and then walk over and blast the hell out of them? Simply stated 360 S3 AP - shots are going to kill something...

Here's an idea for making plasmaguns less common. Make Grenade Launchers better. Same for Lascannons; make Autocannons and Mortars more than novelty weapons.

I suggest the following changes to IG weapons.

Grenade Launcher
Krak - AP: 3
Frag - Range G24"

Autocannon - Rending (as per the rumoured reviesed Rending rule)

Mortar - Str: 5 AP: 5

Hellgun - Str: 4 AP:

A points hike for these weapons would be in order, but they'd be worth their points.

Ratbarf wrote:Why is it that quite a few of you are pointing out the differences in point cost between IG and other Armies? The point cost given is reflective to the use and availability of the weapons/units in the races army.

Yes, that is how GW claims to balance codexes, which is one reason why the balance is as lousy as it is. Making lascannons overpriced in the Guard Codex doesn't reduce the number of lascannons in a competitive guard army. What it does is make a guard player spend more points on the number of lascannons that they require to be competitive, which is about 1 per 250 points, while reducing the number of points to spend on other weapons. Lascannons are not an optional item in a standard guard army, unless you know that you will never have to face any 2+ save troops or AV 13/14 vehicles. If you want codexes to be balanced with each other, then units that produce similar results must have similar point costs. Especially when a guard army has inferior shooting to a marine army up till around the 1500 point range.

Plus, isn't the point of a Guard army to take as many bodies as possbile and then walk over and blast the hell out of them? Simply stated 360 S3 AP - shots are going to kill something...

You can play a guard army that way if you intend to lose on purpose. On average, 360 lasgun shots will kill 20 marines. Sitting still and shooting 12 lascannons and 12 plasma guns and 96 lasguns at 24" (Which costs the same 1200 points cost as your 180 guardsmen horde but has 60 fewer bodies). The army is also actually capable of damaging vehicles, unlike yours, and isn't inviting assault troops to wipe them out.

Hmm, well the most succesful Guard player that I saw simply horded the damned place with massive amounts of infantry, then shot the hell out of all the heavy stuff with three Leman Russes with hull mounted lascannons and battle cannons. A much more realistic approach I think. Not sure which combat doctrines he took though.

THat and twenty marine is usually quite good.

Captain Sturn wrote:Ogryns whats the purpose of giving them FNP they have 3 wounds. 3 wounds FNP would be way unbalancing. Point drop is better solution.

FNP doesn't make Ogryn any more useful. With FNP the Power Fist Vet Sergeant still guts the unit in a single turn, as FNP won't protect against S8 hits. T5 is the only viable solution for making Ogryn useful that I have ever seen.

Captain Sturn wrote:Sentinals are no way as sneaky as lictors. They are fast moving walkers capable of picking their way through terrain. Scout move and fleet would let you flank them around and capture objectives. With decrease in points they would be a very valid unit.

They're worth at 20 points before guns.

Captain Sturn wrote:Storm Troopers give them dont pay for deep strike, but str 4 hellguns i dont think is the answer. With the number of heavy weapons and ordenence you cna throw in a guard list having a str 4 basic unit would be unbalcancing with the number of strom troopers you can field. So leave them at 12 give them deep strike for free and add in frag and krak gernades for free. (IG armies with str 4 hell guns would be grenadiers, ogryns, and preists with tanks as support.)

We have tested Storm Troopers extensivley in our group, and have come up with a unit has performed well in all its forms (Stormies, Grenadiers and Inquisi Storm Troopers):

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
10 Points Per Model
Hellgun, Frag + Krak Grenades
Infiltrate, Deep Strike, Night Vision, Stubborn
Can take 4 Special Weapons (Flamer @ 5, Grenade Launcher @ 5, Plasma Gun @ 8, Meltagun @ 10)

Hellgun is R30 S3 AP5 Rapid Fire but can be overcharged to R30 S6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!.


Keep in mind that 30" is the standard range for all baisc weapons in the games we play, so everything from Bolters to Lasguns to Splinter Rifles have a 30" range. Shuri-Cats are 24". Pulse Rifles are 36" currently. Designed to make basic infantry more useful.

Grenadiers drop the special rules except for Night Vision.

In every game we've tested them they've done very well, and Inquisitorial Armies can be quite competative using these guys as mainline troops, even if they are T3 Sv4+.

BYE

Captain Sturn wrote:1. Lose the 12 inch command thing. Give every IG platoon a vox instead.

Why lose that? It's part of what makes the Guard interesting.

And Voxes should be for something completely different than yet another Ld boosting item. In our rules they reduce scatter for indirect weapons by 1" if the model with the Vox can see the target, up to a maximum of 3" for 3 or more Voxes.

Captain Sturn wrote:2. Drop the advisor rules leave advisors at the same point cost. Just taking away the advisor rule will make the Commisor and Preist allot better.

Drop the Advisors rule yes, but the same points? Those models are not worth 40 points. They're hardly even worth 20...

Captain Sturn wrote:3. Tech Priests should not take up a FO clot

I don't really have a problem with Tech-Priests taking up an FOC slot. Just increase the amount of Servitors they can get and it becomes more interesting.

Captain Sturn wrote:4. Ogryns should be toughness 5

Agree there.

Captain Sturn wrote:5. Chimeras should get a point drop, but not a huge . With extra armor they should be real close to what htey currently are. without less.

In our rules Chimeras are 55 points before guns, are AV12/11/10, and 70 when in standard config (Multi-Laser + HB).

6. Drop infiltrate from vets.

It is completely unecessary to nerf Vets in order to force people to use Stormies.

In our rules we reduced their special weapon options to 2 from 3 and gave them Scouts. They act more as a 'Frontrunner' squad that harasses the enemy, where Stormies work better as Deep Strikers and line-fighters. In our rules their roles are clearly defined, and neither treads on the other's toes.

7. Frag and krak grenades for free for Storm Troopers drop Infiltrate.

Storm Troopers, in their current incarnation, completely suck. Why do you feel taking away rules will make them more competative?

In any case, I've discussed Storm Troopers already.

8. No plasma guns in Troop Platoons. Plamsa is rare. A trooper in a normal squad would not get a gun. A Vet would, a trooper in a command squad would.

As has been explained multiple times - Plasma Guns are rare insofar as they cannot be given to every Guardsmen in the Imperial Guard. They are so rare in fact that the Departmento Munitorium can only supply one plasma gun per squad. That's how rare they are - rare as in 1 per squad, not 1 per army.

The only thing that should change with Plasma Guns is their price, down to 8 points. Flamers and GL's go to 5 as well. Meltas stay as they are.

9. Sentinals point drop. Make them closed toped at their current price. Give them fleet of foot.

In our rules Sentinel base cost is 15 points. Then again, in our rules they're WS3 BS3 S5 T4(5) W2 I3 A2 Ld7 Sv4+ models.

10. Add some russ varients into the regualr codex.

No objections there. Vanquishers, Annihilators, Executioners etc. should be in there, as should Griffons, Support Sentinels, Bombards etc.

Executioners and Annihilators should go down in cost however, as BS3 just don't cut it with these sorts of tanks and their price tags aren't worth it.

BYE

That thing about Departmento Minitorum only being able to find one plasma per squad is still too high. Seeing as there are billions of gaurdsmen and only a couple million space marines you would think that they could equip every space marine with plasma guns wouldn't you? Seeing as they work a whole lot better in the hands of a space Marine. Yet they can't, they can only rustle up one per squad for space marines too. And they definately have a higher priority than a Guard Squad. Just dosn't make sense.

Tell you what - in *your* IG army, you don't take any plasma. The rest of us, we'll keep our plasma.