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Hi,

With all this talk about fixing the codex does that mean it may be updated anytime soon (after Orks perhaps)? Some great ideas especially improving the Ogryns and Stormtroopers.

Cheers

Jeff

God I hope not. All a revision of the Guard Codex will do is remove the Doctrine System, make the good stuff bad, and make the bad stuff good.

BYE

Wasn't suggesting a revision as like the current one although don't use doctrines anymore. Only ever used the current codex and 4th edition rules but has IG improved or got worse (the codex) though the years i.e were they too powerful etc...

Just curious.... sorry

Jeff

Some possible features I'd like to throw in for thought:

Ordnance:
    Imperial tanks use massive shells that cause tremendous devastation in a confined area. A direct hit from an Imperial shell can reduce a battle tank to scrap; the shock of the impact tearing gaping holes in a carefully prepared formation.
   Battle Cannon: The Imperial Battle Cannon uses a solid-core, large-bore round that is fired down range with awesome power. It uses the following profile:
    Range: 72"  Strength: 8  AP: 3/1*  Ordnance 1
    *A direct hit from a Battle Cannon can vaporize most targets. The weapon counts as AP 1 against any model or base touched by the center hole of the template.  ((All existing ordnance rules apply))

    Demolisher Cannon: The Demolisher Cannon is designed for knocking out fortress walls, and utilizes a massive high-explosive shell for such demolition. It uses the following profile:
    Range: 24"  Strength: 10 AP: 2/1** Ordnance 1
    **A direct hit from a Demolisher Cannon always yields no more than a smoking crater and scattered remains. The weapon counts as AP 1 against any model or base touched by the center hole of the template. If a model is wounded and was hit by the central hole of the template, it is immediately reduced to 0 wounds. In addition, any bunker struck by the central hole will be "breached" on a roll of 2+. ((All existing ordnance rules apply))

Heavy Weapon Squads:
    Reduce point costs. Revise point cost progression to fall in line with recent trends (i.e. really expensive las cannons, everything else on the cheap).
Increase the base cost of weapon teams slightly to compensate for the following:
New Rule: Stationary.
    Stationary units start the game in a prepared position. Often referred to as being "entrenched," these models have no intention of moving anywhere, and have carefully dug in to maximize their cover. Stationary models benefit from a 4+ cover save, and benefit from the effects of cover at all times. As the name implies, Stationary models may not move at all during the game, and may always be deployed following the normal setup rules, regardless of deployment restrictions due to the mission.
    Stationary units cannot fall back, and automatically pass all Morale checks they have to make.

Main Battle Tanks and Fire Control
    Imperial Guard Main Battle Tanks are crewed by several Guardsmen and are subordinate to a single tank commander. All Leman Russ Battle Tanks may fire each weapon at a different target, but must pass an unmodifiable Leadership Check (Ld 7) for each weapon beyond the first to pick a new target. If one of these checks is failed, the fire cannot be split and no further attempts may be made that turn. If the tank remains stationary during its movement phase, it can fire its regular weapons in addition to its ordnance weapon.

0-2 Ogryns: between 6 and 12 models per unit.
    Ogryn  WS 4 BS 2 S 4(5)  T 4 W 2  I 3 A 3  Sv 5+ Ld 7 21 points/model
    Bone 'Ead  WS 4  BS 2 S 4(5)  T 4 W 2 I 3 A 3 Sv 5+ Ld 8  36 points
Feel No Pain: Ogryns are incredibly tough, massive mutants that can shrug off wounds that would instantly kill lesser...men. Ogryns benefit from the Feel No Pain rule.
Ripper Gun: Affectionately nicknamed "Handcannon" by their Ogryn counterparts, these massive guns are fitted with countless sharp pointy bits and fire huge blasts at close range.
    Ripper Gun-  Range 12"  S 5  AP 5 Assault 2   
       Because of its tremendous weight and little "decorations" added by the owner, the Ripper Gun also makes for a horrific close combat weapon, giving the Ogryn +1 S (included above)
    Character: If a squad of Ogryns includes a Bone 'Ead, they enter a berserk frenzy and become Fearless when locked in close combat.
     'Uge Hammer: A Bone 'Ead can trade in his Ripper Gun for a huge sledgehammer, lamp post, or other suitably brutish club. This weapon adds +2 S, strikes at Initiative 1, and ignores normal armor saves.

Form Up!
    Any Imperial Guard infantry squad purchased as part of a platoon can "form up" with other squads from the same platoon. Squads that have "formed up" must maintain unit coherency with other "formed up" squads. Squads that are "formed up" use the total number of models "formed up" in the platoon when determining to see if the squad being targeted is affected by Torrent of Fire. Squads that are "Formed Up" ignore Morale Tests from suffering 25% casualties from shooting. A squad that is assaulted while "formed up" counts the total number of "formed up" models in that platoon as the number of models engaged in combat for their side, even though the other "formed up" squads may not be locked.

I believe that the current weakness of the IG codex lies in 3 points.

Heavy Weapons. AT squads and FS squads are horrifically fragile and represent some of the worst points/toughness ratios in 40k. Who needs to torrent of fire a AT squad? You'd probably kill it with nearly any unit that could manage 6 hits. Yet these squads are the source of a lot of the list's anti vehicular firepower. Stacking line squads with lascannons works to a point but makes it difficult to concentrate fire and easy for the opponent to play LOS games.

One idea I had would introduce a upgrade for AT and FS squads for 15 points called 'Field Fortifications' that gives you the option during deployment of that unit to cause each HW team to be treated as 12/11/10 immobile vehicle squadrons with 360 fire arc for the HW. This would render them nearly immune to the standard anti-HW squad weaponry, and as anybody who fields dreadnoughts can tell you if you field 2-3 squads with this upgrade it would become a fairly serious problem for many opponents. This may not be the best idea, but something needs to be done. Maybe have the 'Field Fortifications' rule make them immobile, a 4 or 5+ cover save, and fearless? People don't generally want to leave cover, and that would make somebody have to wipe the entire squad out for sure. HW squads are supposed to be a fair fraction of the IG list's firepower, but they are instead very nearly free points for the opponent, and firing marine lascannons at lascannon AT squads or autocannon FS squads is pretty close to points-effective for the marine player.

Melee combat. Once somebody gets into melee, IG armies tend to fold and wither. Considering how many missions encourage movement, itself a problem for slow IG, against many opponents all that movement does is get you into charge range faster. Ogyrn and RR are supposed to be our melee units. Neither is very good at it. Ogyrn need a points reduction and/or a power weapon/rending/heavy CC weapon. Or maybe some rule for them that they can forfeit attacks to also prevent one model in base contact from attacking. Call it "Wrasslin' for the Emperor". Multiwound models have to either be able to kill powerfists, soak powerfists, or kill everything around the powerfist while another unit soaks the powerfist. Ogyrn do none of the above. I wouldn't mind if RR lost lances and went to furious charge, but they better get 2 CC weapons and a decent points reduction there too. Maybe double furious charge? They really rather need I5, or I4 opponents are just going to decimate them and I5 opponents will ignore them. Close order drill would work, representing the power of ranked calvary?

Disciplines. I wouldn't cry to see them go, because most of them are useless. Personally, I'd fold Iron Discipline and Close Order Drill into standard IG abilities. Put camoline cloaks, light infantry, and drop troops as army wide upgrades (choose one) for a cheap per unit or per model cost. Something like 5 points per line squad, or 3/4ths a point per model. If you don't take a costed upgrade from the list, you can take a free upgrade from a list including stuff like Preferred Enemy, Grenadiers, Mechanized, and the like. The options that really should have been free or nearly so. Restricted units are dumb. The majority of the options are pointless. It's not like the chaos or SM redos where you lose access to *useful* stuff.

Oh, and I'd make pyskers expendable psychic hoods. You can cancel a psychic power, but on a 3+ or something the psyker explodes. Random psychic powers suck, and most of the powers they can get suck. IG have one of biggest weaknesses to many psykers, we shouldn't have to ally with the Inquisition to get anti-psy.

Posted By TheGrog on 09/30/2007 3:29 AM
Melee combat. Once somebody gets into melee, IG armies tend to fold and wither. Considering how many missions encourage movement, itself a problem for slow IG, against many opponents all that movement does is get you into charge range faster. Ogyrn and RR are supposed to be our melee units. Neither is very good at it. Ogyrn need a points reduction and/or a power weapon/rending/heavy CC weapon. Or maybe some rule for them that they can forfeit attacks to also prevent one model in base contact from attacking. Call it "Wrasslin' for the Emperor". Multiwound models have to either be able to kill powerfists, soak powerfists, or kill everything around the powerfist while another unit soaks the powerfist. Ogyrn do none of the above. I wouldn't mind if RR lost lances and went to furious charge, but they better get 2 CC weapons and a decent points reduction there too. Maybe double furious charge? They really rather need I5, or I4 opponents are just going to decimate them and I5 opponents will ignore them. Close order drill would work, representing the power of ranked calvary?

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I have to disagree with this.

RR's need Lances. It's their signature weapon. It'd be like taking Ripper Guns away from Ogryn, Pulse Rifles away from Firewarriors, or the Choppa away from Orks... wait... GW is doing that with the new Codex. Ok, forget the last example.

Ogryn do need the ability to soak up power fists. In our rules we just gave 'em a 4+ Invul save (their 'Faiff in da Empruh!' protects them). It's a clunky, horrible rule and I hate it, but without making them T5 base or flatout making them immune to instant death (neither of which makes any sense), it's the only way to ensure their usefulness.

But I must say that Guard armies don't fold once in HTH. MEQs and below can't really fight off a wave of men, or they'll get tied up for a turn while the rest of the army walks away from the assault. A squad of Scopions or Assault Marines is a major threat to a Guard squad, yes, but that same unit of Scorps/Assault Marines will crumble when counter-charged by 40 other Guardsmen, or wose when those same 40 Guardsmen walk away and then rip them apart by shooting a turn later.

This strategy only falls apart when you get into the realm of 2+ save types. You can't swarm 20 Terminators. It just doesn't work.  But that's what RR's are for - swing first, wound on 3's, ignore saves. Also a good use of Demo Charges and Cyclops Demo Vehicles (both AP2).

BYE

My fix for fire support squads would be a simple upgrade to give them a cover save, mobile sandbags basically. Even a 4+ cover save would be good enough for 10 points. Squads with this upgrade would not be able to be drop troops, but would be able to infiltrate.

Posted By snooggums on 10/07/2007 7:30 PM
My fix for fire support squads would be a simple upgrade to give them a cover save, mobile sandbags basically. Even a 4+ cover save would be good enough for 10 points. Squads with this upgrade would not be able to be drop troops, but would be able to infiltrate.

Infiltrate and a 4+ cover save all for 10 points?  I think that IG could use some help, but that is a bit too much.  This would make the carapace doctrine useless.  I could go for a 5+ coversave without infiltrate for 10pts as that would basically make them semi-survivable out in the open.

The biggest problem I see with the IG codex is mobility, without taking Chimera's your mobility is turned to zilch.  Wich means that taking objectives in games is pretty difficult, especially when a couple of the game modifiers in the Ard'boyz tournament was getting into your opponents deployment zone.

Posted By bebepaquito on 10/07/2007 7:58 PM
This would make the carapace doctrine useless. 

And this is different to now... how, exactly?

The Carapace Armour doctine is useless. 20 points per squad for a save that Heavy Bolters still ignore, or half that to increase your cover save to 3+ or 4+. Given the Guard should be in cover to begin with, why would anyone ever consider the Carapace Armour doctrine unless they were doing a full Drop Troops army where everything dropped all the time.

Which is the obvious choice?

BYE

I agree that carapace doctrine would really only be good for assaulty guard,
stand and shoot should never take it,

Also,
you don't need chimera's to take stuff,
Guard have a wide availability of deep striking units and a plethora of tanks that are fast enough to grab objectives. They are nice, I prefer to use them, but you don't have to take them - There are many other ways of being mobile (well, mobile enough)

:-)

Furious Charge + Close Order Drill would represent lances well enough for me. With a points break. I just never had the problems with 2+ assaulty units.

Since I run rather infantry heavy, having to march every unit within 12" away from a combat represents a fair firepower loss and you still might not be safe from quality consolidate moves. Not to mention the LOS blocking. But what I meant with my statement was directed more towards what happens when you get contacted by more than one unit in melee in the same turn.

You take a way a Lance's ability to ignore armour, and you simply wouldn't take RR's.

BYE

Posted By bebepaquito on 10/07/2007 7:58 PM

Posted By snooggums on 10/07/2007 7:30 PM
My fix for fire support squads would be a simple upgrade to give them a cover save, mobile sandbags basically. Even a 4+ cover save would be good enough for 10 points. Squads with this upgrade would not be able to be drop troops, but would be able to infiltrate.

Infiltrate and a 4+ cover save all for 10 points?  I think that IG could use some help, but that is a bit too much.  This would make the carapace doctrine useless.  I could go for a 5+ coversave without infiltrate for 10pts as that would basically make them semi-survivable out in the open.

Apparently I was not clear enough: 10 points for the 4+ cover save only. I just bought the Dawn of War with winter Assault and found out that they did this already with "entrenching" the fireteams so that made me happy.

What I meant with drop and Infiltrate would be that a squad with sandbags would still be able to take a trait that allowed infiltration (at and additional point cost) but would not allow the squad to be drop troops (due to not having time to set up the sandbags). The squad could even be made immobile for all I care, although a 3+ cover save might be more applicable at that extreme. Pernally I'm not sure why any heavy weapons other than a missle launcher would be able to be dropped.

If I wrote the codex the dropping units would be able to take two special and no heavy weapons and would be assigned to a Fast attack slot. Line squads would be the same and Fire Support type squads woul dbe able to take the sandbags doctrine. There's a lot of other changes I would make also, but these are the main two.

I like that Idea. That was somthing this I had cooked up as an add on to hvy wpn squads. Allow them to take it as wargear. I was not planning on giving them infiltrate but rather a 4+ cover save and count as being in cover so as to be able to strike first in combat. Also if they have the fortified position, they may stand and shoot they enemy that they are charged by. I know that 40K is not WFB but charging into terrain is a much bigger descicion in FB vs 40k, where models that are alrady weak get to do nothing first, and then get killed, unless they guy has frags, then you are SOL.

By page 4 you think someone would have mentioned Chimera side armor. >.<

I think the biggest thing I would like to see is guard being able to play in a more mobile fashion. Gunlines are just so dull imo.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/06/2007 5:15 PM

Ogryn do need the ability to soak up power fists. In our rules we just gave 'em a 4+ Invul save (their 'Faiff in da Empruh!' protects them). It's a clunky, horrible rule and I hate it, but without making them T5 base or flatout making them immune to instant death (neither of which makes any sense), it's the only way to ensure their usefulness.

You're right, it is a horrible fix, and I don't have a better one to give you. I do feel that making them immune to ID would be a lesser evil than a 4+ invulnerable save, but that's neither here nor there.

An example of unnatural toughness that comes to mind is the 2E Death Company where if a model took one wound, they were already dead, but wouldn't actually keel over until the end of the game or until another wound was taken. Something like that would, I feel, really suit the Ogryn aesthetic. You could call it "Ain't Got Time To Bleed!" or Too Dim To Die.

I haven't done the math, but being able to soak 2 powerfist hits apiece would go a long way towards balancing things out, without making it necessary to expend a lot of AT fire to take out a unit. And in many games, you wouldn't even have to finish them off completely, since at the end of the game, wounded ones would die on their own, giving appropriate VP and making the unit non-scoring, as appropriate.

In rules-speak, it'd go something like

Too Dim To Die: Ogryns are bulky and tough, with an endurance that compares to that of Space Marines. Their surprising resilience has resulted in many an Ogryn surviving, at least for a time, hits that would kill an ordinary human in an instant. In game terms, when an Ogryn model loses its last wound (this applies to Instant Death results as well), it is not removed as a casualty. Instead it may continue fighting, at 0 wounds, until wounded again. Any models affected by this effect are removed as casualties at the end of the game, and will give the enemy Victory Points as normal.

Well, that's pretty crummy writing, but you get the gist of it.

I think making them T5 would be the best solution. Then they might be worth the 25 points they are going for now.

Also, let the bonehead take officer items. W5, and I4

Toughness 5 doesn't make any sense.

Why is an Ogryn more resilient to instant death than a Terminator, or an Obliterator, or an Ork Nob?

It doesn't make sense.

BYE

Nothing about the Ogryns makes sense, really. It'd've been best if the unit entry had been dropped from the book in the 2nd to 3rd edition transition, so it could've joined Frateris Militia in obsolescence. Just like Sisters shouldn't get cheap hordes of sacrificial mooks, maybe IG shouldn't get a unit of multiple-wound S6 close combatants at any price.

It'd be easier for them if a significant majority of armies they faced weren't marines with a powerfist on every veteran sergeant (a no-brainer choice if ever there was one).

Anyhow, I was talking about the rule I wrote above, and someone mentioned Grimaldus has something similar, called "Only in Death Does Duty End", allowing him to keep fighting post-mortem.

What do you mean it doesn't make sense. Obviously they are tougher since they have 3 wounds, they are bigger and stronger, therefore they should also be "tougher". Toughness 5 makes perfect sense.

To answer why they should be more resilient is because unlike obliterators and terminators, they dont have +2 saves or INV saves. So to mention currently they dont have access to power wpns so thier high S hardly matters when your opponent saves on a +2. The fact that very few take ogryn is a sign that they are broken, along with sentinels,and RR (A little),

Hm. I had another idea.

Let each Ogryn ignore the first IK hit that strikes it, counting it as a regular wound instead. A built-in Medallion Crimson for everyone. It would be a bookkeeping problem, but this is a multiple-wound squad already, there's no way around that.

I haven't followed the whole thread, but here is my take on Orgyns.

I think the thing that GW misses in their state lines are the medium creature. Here is how I would classify creatures:

Human EQ: Gaurdsman, Tau Firewarriors, Gaunts, etc

Superior Human EQ: Space Marines, Orks, etc.

Medium Creatures: Tyranid Warriors, Orgyn, Spawn, etc.

Large Creatures: Carnifexes, Wraithlords. etc.

I think toughness should correspond with those levels, Humans being 3, SM being 4, Medium being 5, Large being 6+.

It fits with the reasoning that seems to be implied with the way toughness is distributed. Yet, Tyranid Warriors and Orgyn are toughness 4. I think SM are tough, but there has to be a factor of bodymass when determing toughness.

So make Orgyns toughness 5 base. That fixes the power fist issue.

I would also give them 4+ save standard as well. The one caveat though would be a reduction to 2 wounds.

All this with only a marginal points increase if at all. Any other army that spends 25 points per model get a much better deal from a strictly state line perspective. GW puts way to much importance on wounds.

I'm toying around with a Codex IG rewrite in my free time, inspired by people like HBMC and the like, and here is what I've come up with for Ogryns (sorry if my ideas are similar to yours - no intention of plagiarism!):

Ogryn WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
25pts 4 3 5 5 3 3 3 9 4+

Weapon: Ripper Gun (+1 Strength CC Weapon), S5 AP5 Assault2 12" Ranged Weapon


A bit powerful, yes, but they can still be shredded by Heavy Bolters.

CK

I just disagree with your comment about the 4+ armor save Mahu.

It goes against the flavor that ogryns have had since day 1. Heck, with the way GW has been leaning, I think it'd be more likely they get T5 3W. Gotta move those slow models, ya hear!

The new Ogryn models aren't particularly armored, that's certainly true. The one I'm painting right now has some chunks of armor over his body, but nothing that indicates a solid 4+ of protection.

Would T5 really be enough, though? There's still a problem of the unit lacking a niche, as there are better counterassault options available (Rough Riders).

At T5 3W and a 5+ save, they'd serve to fill the gap of conscripts in a more reliable and streamlined fashion in that they'd make an excellent tarpit unit (good luck getting through 30 wounds at T5 with your assault squad...). They'd be a good counter to certain otherwise broken assault units like harlequins. They wouldn't die to fists left and right. And no clunky rules involving FNP or Crimson medallion for every model...

Keep their other stats the same and apply those changes, and you have a useful unit.

Ellios, y'know, you're actually right.

I've been thinking about this, and realised the critical comparative mistake I was making. I was looking my own view of Terminators vs my own view of Ogryn rather than looking at - and I can't believe I'm saying this - GW's way of comparing the two.


In our rules, Terminators are T4(5) W2. They're 45 points each and worth every single one. GW's Terminators on the other hand are worth, realistically, 28-30 points each (with weapons).

Now, with GW, they see a Terminator as having 1 wound and an Ogryn as being three times as tough as that. I had a problem with that because I just don't see it that way. However, if we take GW's approach that an Ogryn should be tougher than a Terminator, then the only answer is Base T5, as you suggested Ellios.

You're also right about the simplicity of the rules. Base T5 and no additional rules works a lot better. I'd give 'em a 4+ save though.

So I'm changing my point of view. Ellios is correct. T5 is the answer.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/31/2007 10:47 PM
Ellios, y'know, you're actually right.

I've been thinking about this, and realised the critical comparative mistake I was making. I was looking my own view of Terminators vs my own view of Ogryn rather than looking at - and I can't believe I'm saying this - GW's way of comparing the two.


In our rules, Terminators are T4(5) W2. They're 45 points each and worth every single one. GW's Terminators on the other hand are worth, realistically, 28-30 points each (with weapons).

Now, with GW, they see a Terminator as having 1 wound and an Ogryn as being three times as tough as that. I had a problem with that because I just don't see it that way. However, if we take GW's approach that an Ogryn should be tougher than a Terminator, then the only answer is Base T5, as you suggested Ellios.

You're also right about the simplicity of the rules. Base T5 and no additional rules works a lot better. I'd give 'em a 4+ save though.

So I'm changing my point of view. Ellios is correct. T5 is the answer.

BYE

Hahaha!!

Sorry, that's funny.  I remember some-one suggesting this so many months ago (I will admit a little out of naive experience) and getting told that was just not going to work.

Yay, T5 W3 4+ Armour, very tough, but no longer T6 against S4 shooting (big difference!!)

Wait, was T4(6) only in our weird rules?

who knows anymore...

 

:-)

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/31/2007 10:47 PM

You're also right about the simplicity of the rules. Base T5 and no additional rules works a lot better. I'd give 'em a 4+ save though.

So I'm changing my point of view. Ellios is correct. T5 is the answer.

It's certainly a very elegant answer. Compared to Terminators, Ogryns would still take wounds easier, particularly as their low save leaves them vulnerable to weapons such as autocannons and heavy bolters that a Terminator can simply shrug off. They'd both be tough units, but in a different way, Terminators flat-out saving against more attacks and Ogryns being able to suffer more wounding hits per capita before dying.

For the record, I support the idea of W2 Terminators, since that'd give some more breadth to the space marine stat range, whereas nowadays nearly all of their models have the exact same statline.

I agree with Agamemnon2 regarding the change in Terminator Statlines. For 40 points, only two S4 ranged attacks is pretty weak, especially when you add in the fact that they're T4 and W1, like every other Space Marine. These guys are supposed to be the creme-de-la-creme of a Chapter. How can that be represented on the field? Well, not necessarily with WS and BS of 5, but with T4(5) and W2, I think the point gets across.

T5 Ogryns with a 4+ save makes the most sense to me. Having a normal toughness and an instakill toughness doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me unless they're only one point apart and are in the lower third of the toughness bracket (i.e., T3(4), T4(5), and T5(6) being the three in particular). Having weird toughnesses like in the first Tau codex, where the Krootox was T3(5) makes models go from being wounded on a 4+ to being instakilled on a 2+ with the increase of 1 point of weapon strength.

CK