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Yeah the melee focused ones are absolutely stupid.

My biggest problem with canticles is that it's just a dull mechanic. Just like all our useful strategms, relics, warlord traits and support abilities. Mostly dull. Useful, but dull.

Bring back the excitement of interesting rules interactions.

it sort of goes back on why i hated rolling for warlord traits in the past.
Included in the same stupid list you rolled on were things that only helped melee, or things that only helped shooting.
Canticles are the same way, why are half of them restricted to being in combat, and two in shooting (technically cover is shooting only)? I hate that, because when you roll randomly you seem to almost always get a result that does absolutely nothing for you.
Random determination in general needs to go away. 8th largely removed it but some still exists. Its a fun mechanic when all the results are at least useful in any circumstance, but if you can call upon that random list of events and some are 100% useless (as in, does NOTHING not doesnt do anything meaningful), it shouldnt be random. Daemon psyker powers in the past come to mind, they'd literally lose before the game started if their powers were bad.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
a single good canticle out of 6 does not make canticles good.
That ONE is good, canticles as a whole is garbage. I wouldnt even be upset if the "2cp use a canticle you already selected this battle, one use only" strat if all 6 were actually useful.
Global reroll 1s is situational at best, largely unneeded. The other 4 are completely unneeded and worthless.

The fact that 3 of them are focused on being in melee when very little we have actually want melee makes them bad as a whole. I have never, ever "rolled" the 3 melee canticles when i actually wanted them.

If all 6 were really strong canticles would be overpowered

2 strong ( +1 to hit in shooting ) and (cover) if you dont think reroll 1's to hit is strong let your opponent playing knights have reroll 1's to hit for his whole army for a turn or two I bet they consider it a buff. If you don't think its strong because everything benefits from cawls Aura then thats your build not the strengtg of the canticle.

As to melee again I come back to build. Your saying we don't want to be in melee but Hoplites, Infiltrators, dragoons, breachers both varietys of electropriest, ruststalkers and vanguard in synergy with the others are all units with passable melee capabilities and equal to about half are units. Sure you can say I don't take them but that doesnt mean there shouldn't be a buff for them if anything it means they need a bigger buff.

I don't deny that 3 melee focussed ones is less than ideal (ideally there would be a movement buff)

Plus your argument I never roll melee buff when I actualy wanted it - well if you wanted why not pick it their are 3.

Eh, I feel reroll 1's is still quite strong, you just need to be running an army that takes advantage of it. With my mobile Metallica force compromised of tons of plasma skitarii advancing about and robots sprinting up the board, dominus can have a hard time keeping up with everything, so it lets you stay on the move while keeping up the firepower. Yes, no unit is gonna be as strong as a Cawl castle would be, but I can have way more board control while keeping my firepower up. May not be a big deal for ITC but critical in stuff like chapter approved missions.

And yes, I get that chapters like Imperial Fists exist, but just because a couple armies invalidates it doesn't mean it stops being useful the other 95% of the time.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
it sort of goes back on why i hated rolling for warlord traits in the past.
Included in the same stupid list you rolled on were things that only helped melee, or things that only helped shooting.
Canticles are the same way, why are half of them restricted to being in combat, and two in shooting (technically cover is shooting only)? I hate that, because when you roll randomly you seem to almost always get a result that does absolutely nothing for you.
Random determination in general needs to go away. 8th largely removed it but some still exists. Its a fun mechanic when all the results are at least useful in any circumstance, but if you can call upon that random list of events and some are 100% useless (as in, does NOTHING not doesnt do anything meaningful), it shouldnt be random. Daemon psyker powers in the past come to mind, they'd literally lose before the game started if their powers were bad.

Melee units benefit from cover most because often they are the ones set up outside terrain not to mention if they kill there target or it falls back.

As to random its semi random but if you build an army designed to sit in a corner round cawl you are not leverageing many of the mechanics so 1/6 are good rolls and 5/6 dont help. If you take dragoons, hoplites and DS infiltrators with your disintegrators spread out throughout midfield your going to find 2/6 are good 1/6 are medium 2/6 are situational and moral sucks.

I also agree with the above that ITC are a big factor in why some units dont see more play - looking at you dragoons (gangbusters) but while that may incentivise the cawl build in that format - ITC isnt the only format

I find it funny that people are complaining about the Iron Hands doctrine being too good when we basically get it for free in our army, on top of a -1 to hit on all our stuff. Canticles are good, they just need a rebalancing so each of them has some use.

Right now we have 3/6 that are good, one that is situationally good and two that are garbage, thats not bad for something that costs us nothing.

And people saying admech has no place in melee should really be playing our super strong melee units (dragoons and fulgurites). The reroll 1's in melee is actually super useful since its our only reliable source of it. And the +1 strength is good when fulgurites are fighting T5 (centurions and stuff) or our dragoons are fighting T8.

its really only the first and second that are garbage. If the second was changed so that every unit you own that is in combat makes you roll for it, AND it triggered at the beginning of combat instead of beginning of the turn, it wouldnt be that bad.

IMO, our warlord traits, relics and our dogmas need a rework. We basically only have stygies as a good pick, and mars is only there for Cawl + wrath of mars. Make the underdogs useful.

Ryza's dogma is good, but for any melee units, you'll want to infiltrate them with stygies, which means ryza is only there for the stratagem.
Agripiina is a third of modern day chapter tactics, and the stratagem pretty much got invalidated with the servitor maniple.
Lucius is a third of modern day chapter tactics, the stratagem and relic are good, but do you really want to forfeit a dogma for them in non-casual games (i have a soft spot for fistellans)
Metallica works on like 2 of our units and the stratagem affects the most useless stat in 8th edition. (If only it was worded "Any model that advances is treated as if it had only moved" so that our dragoons/skorpius could shoot with no penalty)

...

Oh, and i almost forgot Graia. The dogma used to be good with fulgurites exclusively (running big blobs of them was fun) but then GW nerfed it even though in their own forgeworld preview, they mentionned the interaction as beign the key strategy. They strat is good, but now that we have assassins + inquisitors, i can see it being less useful.


/rant

Maybe because our kastelan are a joke VS the hq dreadnought. They cost only a bit more but have great shooting, while hitting on 2s and even have great melee with more attacks and hitting on 2s while even having more hp.

To the forgeworld comment
Yes stygies and mars are the best as a base just as cadians and catachans are for guard or ironhands white scars and ravenguard are better than the rest tfor SM thats not a problem

Why limit yourself to one forgeworld I reguarly take a mixed detatchment filled out with some hoplites

We have a lot of tool box units from different forgeworlds

Lucius offers the ability to deepstrike corpuscarii and yes the solar flare is great for the HQ that 3rd enginseer becomes an objective grabber
Agripinaa stratagem is broken on breachers provided you have CP
Ryza plasma destroyers
Stygies dragoons
Mars infiltrators
Graia psychic denial

In my next tourney im 2 stygies battalions
But a mixed vanguard
Lucius enginseer solar flare
Lucius corpuscarii DS
Mars infiltrators WoM
2x Hoplites

That faq saying graia doesnt work with fulgurite fnp pissed me off.

Straight up "nah stop doing that" type faq. The two rules are completely different so i fail to see how they deny each other.
Losing a wound vs death/flee is not the same trigger. If Graia was a proper fnp i wouldnt be bothered by it.

But i'd agree, if anything needs renovating its the dogmas/relics not canticles. Canticles are at least usable, the only relic i get any milage out of is the Omni Mask (Manip following dragoons ftw) and since i dont own Cawl or have a big kataphron destroyer blob yet the only dogma i ever use is Stygies lol.

The only reason i dont run mix dogmas is because i find it annoying to keep track of what is what. I always forget one unit was actually this dogma, not that one.

Thats where different paint schemes come in

U02dah4 wrote:To the forgeworld comment
Yes stygies and mars are the best as a base just as cadians and catachans are for guard or ironhands white scars and ravenguard are better than the rest tfor SM thats not a problem

Why limit yourself to one forgeworld I reguarly take a mixed detatchment filled out with some hoplites

We have a lot of tool box units from different forgeworlds

Lucius offers the ability to deepstrike corpuscarii and yes the solar flare is great for the HQ that 3rd enginseer becomes an objective grabber
Agripinaa stratagem is broken on breachers provided you have CP
Ryza plasma destroyers
Stygies dragoons
Mars infiltrators
Graia psychic denial

In my next tourney im 2 stygies battalions
But a mixed vanguard
Lucius enginseer solar flare
Lucius corpuscarii DS
Mars infiltrators WoM
2x Hoplites

oh, dont worry, i know that mixed detachments are super strong, it only further proves my point, our stratagems are good, the dogmas arent. And all the strategies you described are carried by the forgeworld's stratagems (except for stygies dragoons because they benefit from both aspects).

And i'm pretty sure i was one of the first to bring up using the solar flare on an enginseer in a mixed detachment on this thread.

My usual mixed detachment is :

Ryza Dominus + master biosplicer
Lucius enginseer + solar flare

6x Ryza plasmaphrons
2x5 Graia vanguard
Graia servitors

with a splash of mars infiltrators if i have place.

all backed up by a stygies gunline + dragoons||fulgurites that i slingshot in their face.

U02dah4 wrote:Thats where different paint schemes come in

i'd rather make every unit exclusively from one forgeworld than repaint my army when i change my list. that or use rubberbands.

As a tourney player that doesnt work at a lot of events.
Most like mars infiltrators dont change very often i just painted them slughtly differently from the start

U02dah4 wrote:
As a tourney player that doesnt work at a lot of events.
Most like mars infiltrators dont change very often i just painted them slughtly differently from the start

The rubberband or different base rims was accepted until recently when FLG added that each detachment MUST have a different paintjob. Which is one of the many reasons why i dont attend big tournaments. Gatekeeping people by forcing them to repaint their armies sucks IMO, and i never have a fixed list, some units might always be X bu i still dont wanna have to be forced by color scheme since i like changing lists often.

Yeah it urks me having different paintjobs in my army.
I make exceptions for big named characters (new Ghaz model will not be yellow lol) but the army itself being different schemes is annoying to me.
I know a lot of people that used to play tournaments and that rule change pushed them out because they refused to repaint their already excessively time-devouring paintjobs just to shut up a judge about a technicality that doesnt even affect the game.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
As a tourney player that doesnt work at a lot of events.
Most like mars infiltrators dont change very often i just painted them slughtly differently from the start

The rubberband or different base rims was accepted until recently when FLG added that each detachment MUST have a different paintjob. Which is one of the many reasons why i dont attend big tournaments. Gatekeeping people by forcing them to repaint their armies sucks IMO, and i never have a fixed list, some units might always be X bu i still dont wanna have to be forced by color scheme since i like changing lists often.

It really only comes up if you're running different FW/chapter/regiment in the same army, and it's a fair call. Rubber bands looked awful and painted bases can mean many things. It really wasn't unreasonable to say "hey if you're running multiple traits in your army, they need to be visibly different at a glance". I get it sucks if you're figuring your list out at first but at a tournament you should know what everything is going to be and commit. It's part of why I never recommended new players do the weird mixed FW lists, all it takes is one little errata or FAQ and you'd have to repaint your army for major events. And it'll be annoying to play against in pickup games if your army is mono scheme but "these guys are stygies but THESE guys are Mars". Easy to mixup for both players.

I can still go to an event and run my Metallica as stygies if I wanted, nothing really changed there last I had heard. The only requirement I've heard of was all units of a <trait> must match, to stop people from just snatching up a ton of random, poorly painted Centurions for example and running them alongside their Raven guard. It catches some people in admech just trying to keep up with the meta in a crappy place but it is ultimately necessary if you want good looking events and easy to ready armies. No different than making a chaos player mark which gods his units belong to really.

The LVO guidelines "You may have models painted in the same paint scheme count as different <Factions> so long as you clearly visually distinguish them. For example, if you have an army all painted in the same scheme using Cadian models (or whatever models) but distinguish them using something like Squad Marks (who will have a booth in the vendor area of the LVO) that IS acceptable. Something like colored rubber bands put on to models is NOT acceptable but wrapping them around the base IS.

It's not hard to put a colored rubber band around the base of most models, you shouldn't have to worry about repainting your models.

if the only tournament you attend is the LVO your good then but lots of my tournaments rule differently

Yes I usually use base colouring to differentiate squads quickly

Visual information is important to your opponent especially what is -1 to hit

You can still have a cohesive army with different paint schemes.

my metalics are the same army wide as are my secondary colours and basing but primary colours vary by subfaction this means if I need to repaint I don't have to repaint the whole model just change the cape from blue to red. There is also nothing to say which subfaction each colour is so I have run my destegrad blue scheme as agripinaa or stygies list depending

but some units that rely on a particular subfactions strategem are not going to change colour I either run them in there subfaction or i don't run them its really not a common occurance to repaint

Where was that Graia FAQ? That's fething bs.

Different faction detachments is my biggest bugbear of this entire edition. if all the relics, strategms and warlord traits worked for every faction there would be no need in all this dodgy multi-faction shenanigans.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Where was that Graia FAQ? That's fething bs.

in the admech faq itself.

Q: Can a Graia model that has the Refusal to Yield ability also make use of rules that allow them to ignore lost wounds, such as Fanatical Devotion?
A: No.

Im positive someone didnt like this and bombarded the FAQ email with this and since we know the faq and codex arent always handled by the same person the guy behind the faq just went with it since they sounded similar. They dont conflict...at all..yet they arent allowed to work together. Absolute BS indeed.

That Faq makes no sense, but I have to say i'm happy they didnt faq'd yet that you can use Acquisition at Any Cost to improve the invulnerable save on fulgurites to 2++

Leucaruth wrote:
That Faq makes no sense, but I have to say i'm happy they didnt faq'd yet that you can use Acquisition at Any Cost to improve the invulnerable save on fulgurites to 2++

I'm pretty sure that's already happened, I just don't have a source lol. Fulgurites were already absurdly undercosted BEFORE the latest CA reductions. I'd call you a liar if you said you expected them to get reduced in cost before last CA lol. Everyone expected corpuscarii and ruststalkers but fulgurites are already way too strong. I'd expect their cost to go back up in the next adjustments.

No i was wrong. it was only faqd so you could only use aquisition at all costs once.

The one I was thinking of was rotate ion shields which is restricted to a 4++ max now.

Octovol wrote:

Leucaruth wrote:
That Faq makes no sense, but I have to say i'm happy they didnt faq'd yet that you can use Acquisition at Any Cost to improve the invulnerable save on fulgurites to 2++

I'm pretty sure that's already happened, I just don't have a source lol. Fulgurites were already absurdly undercosted BEFORE the latest CA reductions. I'd call you a liar if you said you expected them to get reduced in cost before last CA lol. Everyone expected corpuscarii and ruststalkers but fulgurites are already way too strong. I'd expect their cost to go back up in the next adjustments.

Fulgurites are hands down our most efficient and dangerous infantry unit in a Space Marine dominated meta. Once they get souped up, they are virtually unkillable with Acquisition, -1 to hit, and Shroudpsalm bonuses stacked on them. They also vomit out mortal wounds and attack twice, so they can do some ridiculous trades. The piece that was missing was an extremely wound efficient transport, which we got with the Dunerider. All of my lists begin with 2x10 Fulgurites and 2x Dunerider nowadays.

 Suzuteo wrote:

Fulgurites are hands down our most efficient and dangerous infantry unit in a Space Marine dominated meta. Once they get souped up, they are virtually unkillable with Acquisition, -1 to hit, and Shroudpsalm bonuses stacked on them. They also vomit out mortal wounds and attack twice, so they can do some ridiculous trades. The piece that was missing was an extremely wound efficient transport, which we got with the Dunerider. All of my lists begin with 2x10 Fulgurites and 2x Dunerider nowadays.

Exactly, the list i'm running lately that is doing great for me, and uses 2x10 fulgurites and 2 duneriders as you say, is the following:

++Battalion Stygies VIII

-HQ
Tech-Priest Enginseer
Tech-Priest Enginseer

-Troops
Skitarii Vanguards 2xPlasma
Skitarii Vanguards 2xPlasma
Skitarii Vanguards 2xPlasma

-Heavy Support
Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler - Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler - Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser

++ Battalion - Stygies VIII
- HQ
Daedalosus
Tech-Priest Dominus: Phosphor Serpenta, Volkite Blaster

-Troops
Skitarii Vanguards: 2x Plasma Caliver
Skitarii Vanguards: 2x Plasma Caliver
Skitarii Vanguards: 2x Plasma Caliver

-Elites
Fulgurite Electro-Priests x10
Fulgurite Electro-Priests x10

- Heavy Support
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon

- Dedicated Transport
Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Dunerider

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment : Mars

- Elites
Sicarian Infiltrators x9: Flechette/Taser): Taser Goad

++ Total: [127 PL, 13CP, 2,000pts] ++

I wish I had five Duneriders.

IMO, we still want Cawl as your Warlord for the reroll bubble. The tanks don't actually need Stygies. Hell, you can even do 100% Mars.

Anyhow, I am glad the new ITC rules got rid of the alternating deployment. I had to skimp on infantry just to load up all of my characters. Another interesting point to consider now is that Kataphrons no longer count for Gang Busters in ITC.

Leucaruth wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:

Fulgurites are hands down our most efficient and dangerous infantry unit in a Space Marine dominated meta. Once they get souped up, they are virtually unkillable with Acquisition, -1 to hit, and Shroudpsalm bonuses stacked on them. They also vomit out mortal wounds and attack twice, so they can do some ridiculous trades. The piece that was missing was an extremely wound efficient transport, which we got with the Dunerider. All of my lists begin with 2x10 Fulgurites and 2x Dunerider nowadays.

Exactly, the list i'm running lately that is doing great for me, and uses 2x10 fulgurites and 2 duneriders as you say, is the following:

++Battalion Stygies VIII

-HQ
Tech-Priest Enginseer
Tech-Priest Enginseer

-Troops
Skitarii Vanguards 2xPlasma
Skitarii Vanguards 2xPlasma
Skitarii Vanguards 2xPlasma

-Heavy Support
Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler - Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler - Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser

++ Battalion - Stygies VIII
- HQ
Daedalosus
Tech-Priest Dominus: Phosphor Serpenta, Volkite Blaster

-Troops
Skitarii Vanguards: 2x Plasma Caliver
Skitarii Vanguards: 2x Plasma Caliver
Skitarii Vanguards: 2x Plasma Caliver

-Elites
Fulgurite Electro-Priests x10
Fulgurite Electro-Priests x10

- Heavy Support
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon

- Dedicated Transport
Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Dunerider

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment : Mars

- Elites
Sicarian Infiltrators x9: Flechette/Taser): Taser Goad

++ Total: [127 PL, 13CP, 2,000pts] ++

That looks like a really fun army. But my gawd. The floaty gunboats alone are $510 USD! Oof.

I'm still not sure which side of balanced fulgurites sit on. There are loads of high cost elite infantry in other armies that don't even come close to the output fulgurites spew forth along with their durability.

I think they're too cheap. But I also think the others are too high cost. 150pts feels right for fulgurites. Nothing else in our army or any other I can think of comes close. They'd still be cheap at 150 compared to others and still far out damage and last equivalents.

Dunno. Fulgurites are a really weird unit in the AdMech lineup to begin with, being a dedicated melee unit. Without a transport, they actually can be quite bad; if they can't get close enough to fight and have to stand out in the open, they are pretty much extremely overpriced Guardsmen.

That being said, OP or UP is relative. We are in a Space Marine meta where T4 3++ is extremely common, and these guys counter that.