Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Nice to see vehicles hit a bit tougher in melee this edition. A 40-ton vehicle should hit on more than 6+ against most enemies IMO.

The tracks on the Landraider crush the Heretic.

Voss wrote:

Yes, that's the current way things are done. Its not the way things MUST be done.

An alternate method: If you put Crushing Claws on a carnifex, you obviously value the high strength attacks, rather than more attacks with double scythe (which we can see on the Screamer-Killer). So you subsume (and abstract) the other stuff into more attacks with the claws. So give it 6 or 7 crushing claw attacks instead of 5 and nothing else. [Adjust those numbers for whatever a reasonable amount of attacks is in 10th, though # of attacks is looking like its going to be high still)

So which would be the difference bewteen a Carnifex with only crushing claws, a Carnifex with crushing claws and scything talons and a Carnifex with crushing claws, scything talons and bone mace or thresher scythe?

Do we have a specific profile for each case? bespoken rules? core or USR rules?

 Tyran wrote:

Voss wrote:

Yes, that's the current way things are done. Its not the way things MUST be done.

An alternate method: If you put Crushing Claws on a carnifex, you obviously value the high strength attacks, rather than more attacks with double scythe (which we can see on the Screamer-Killer). So you subsume (and abstract) the other stuff into more attacks with the claws. So give it 6 or 7 crushing claw attacks instead of 5 and nothing else. [Adjust those numbers for whatever a reasonable amount of attacks is in 10th, though # of attacks is looking like its going to be high still)

So which would be the difference bewteen a Carnifex with only crushing claws, a Carnifex with crushing claws and scything talons and a Carnifex with crushing claws, scything talons and bone mace or thresher scythe?

Do we have a specific profile for each case? bespoken rules? core or USR rules?

You have:
Crushing claws
Scything talons

Tail weapon - grants one additional attack to a melee weapon

It's a simple as it needs to be.

Dudeface wrote:

You have:
Crushing claws
Scything talons

Tail weapon - grants one additional attack to a melee weapon

It's a simple as it needs to be.

And what about double scything talons? or thresher scythes?

Gosh it’s almost as if….we need more information, isn’t it?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The tracks on the Landraider crush the Heretic.

...Ciaphas Cain reference?

I see two possibilities:

You can attack with all the melee weapons you are armed with

You can attack with only one melee weapon you are armed with

Either way, it is easy to include a bullet note much like that on the Cyclone Missile Launcher that limits or adds to your fighting ability over multiple weapons.

I can certainly see the standard being fight with 1 melee weapon with the extra weapons having a symbol that means “this model may fight with this weapon in addition to the other weapons it is armed with”.

 alextroy wrote:
I see two possibilities:

You can attack with all the melee weapons you are armed with

You can attack with only one melee weapon you are armed with

Either way, it is easy to include a bullet note much like that on the Cyclone Missile Launcher that limits or adds to your fighting ability over multiple weapons.

I can certainly see the standard being fight with 1 melee weapon with the extra weapons having a symbol that means “this model may fight with this weapon in addition to the other weapons it is armed with”.

It may be as simple as keywording just that as [Auxiliary] or whatever and pin it on appropriate weapons like e.g. lashwhips or tail weapons.

 Tyran wrote:

Voss wrote:

Yes, that's the current way things are done. Its not the way things MUST be done.

An alternate method: If you put Crushing Claws on a carnifex, you obviously value the high strength attacks, rather than more attacks with double scythe (which we can see on the Screamer-Killer). So you subsume (and abstract) the other stuff into more attacks with the claws. So give it 6 or 7 crushing claw attacks instead of 5 and nothing else. [Adjust those numbers for whatever a reasonable amount of attacks is in 10th, though # of attacks is looking like its going to be high still)

So which would be the difference bewteen a Carnifex with only crushing claws, a Carnifex with crushing claws and scything talons and a Carnifex with crushing claws, scything talons and bone mace or thresher scythe?

Do we have a specific profile for each case? bespoken rules? core or USR rules?

Yep, I can clearly answer on a case by case basis, when there are multiple ways they could handle it (another alternate is you can fight with X or Y, same as some of the shooting profiles we've seen) and we don't know.

If it were me, I'd make those three the same and just focus on 'its a crushing claws carnifex.' Tracking every little spike and tail adornment is pointless gak, same as tracking whether a power weapon is a sword, mace or axe. And given how dramatically tyranid weapons have shifted from edition to edition, I'd rather they just settle on something simple and sane.

We'll see how GW handles it, no need to overreact to 'it can be handled several different ways'

 Tyran wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

You have:
Crushing claws
Scything talons

Tail weapon - grants one additional attack to a melee weapon

It's a simple as it needs to be.

And what about double scything talons? or thresher scythes?

Thresher scythes are tail weapons, see above. If you take 2 Scything talons, which I'd wager are free, twin linked.

Like I keep trying to say, you're trying to make this weird complex loophole exist when there doesn't need to be.

EightFoldPath wrote:

Kill your target and Oaths applies to the second unit's target and off you go again with the same lethality.

Alternatively put two units into the primary Oath target and one into the secondary Oath target.

Not how Oath of Moment works.

In your command phase you choose ONE (and only one) target for the Oath. Every unit in your army gets rerolls against that one target.

If you wipe it out? No more Oath of Moment bonus until your next command phase, when you again choose ONE (and only) target, against which every unit in your army will get rerolls.

EightFoldPath wrote:

If your opponent does let you get three charges off then activate your first terminator unit into you oath of moment target and as we've only seen the Libby Terminator let's assume he is the one attached:
.

Guess 40k players need to learn trick aos players have had to learn long time ago and screen units you don't want be charged

Worry when those termies fly.

We are used to stuff that can do t1 charge high speed and usually can kill what it targets. Mawkrusha usually kills what it wants and can cover 36" before charge. You learn to screen when that comes around

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

Kill your target and Oaths applies to the second unit's target and off you go again with the same lethality.

Alternatively put two units into the primary Oath target and one into the secondary Oath target.

Not how Oath of Moment works.

In your command phase you choose ONE (and only one) target for the Oath. Every unit in your army gets rerolls against that one target.

If you wipe it out? No more Oath of Moment bonus until your next command phase, when you again choose ONE (and only) target, against which every unit in your army will get rerolls.

Notice how he had guillimann? Now check guilliman datasheet revealed today. You'll see something related to oath.

PenitentJake wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

Kill your target and Oaths applies to the second unit's target and off you go again with the same lethality.

Alternatively put two units into the primary Oath target and one into the secondary Oath target.

Not how Oath of Moment works.

In your command phase you choose ONE (and only one) target for the Oath. Every unit in your army gets rerolls against that one target.

If you wipe it out? No more Oath of Moment bonus until your next command phase, when you again choose ONE (and only) target, against which every unit in your army will get rerolls.

Today’s article revealed Guilliman’s datasheet with this special rule:

Master of Battle: After you have selected an enemy unit using the Oath of Moment ability, select a second enemy unit. Until the start of your next Command phase, if the first unit selected has been destroyed, each time a friendly ADEPTUS ASTARTES model makes an attack that targets that second enemy unit, you can re-roll the Hit roll and you can re-roll the Wound roll.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/02/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marines-2/

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The tracks on the Landraider crush the Heretic.

...Ciaphas Cain reference?

You’re damn right!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And because I’m a child, I’d love to blat Abaddon with the Lascannon, then take that last wound by running him over.

That just appeals to me.

tneva82 wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

If your opponent does let you get three charges off then activate your first terminator unit into you oath of moment target and as we've only seen the Libby Terminator let's assume he is the one attached:
.

Guess 40k players need to learn trick aos players have had to learn long time ago and screen units you don't want be charged

Worry when those termies fly.

We are used to stuff that can do t1 charge high speed and usually can kill what it targets. Mawkrusha usually kills what it wants and can cover 36" before charge. You learn to screen when that comes around

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

Kill your target and Oaths applies to the second unit's target and off you go again with the same lethality.

Alternatively put two units into the primary Oath target and one into the secondary Oath target.

Not how Oath of Moment works.

In your command phase you choose ONE (and only one) target for the Oath. Every unit in your army gets rerolls against that one target.

If you wipe it out? No more Oath of Moment bonus until your next command phase, when you again choose ONE (and only) target, against which every unit in your army will get rerolls.

Notice how he had guillimann? Now check guilliman datasheet revealed today. You'll see something related to oath.

Wringing your hands about an ability stapled on to Guillamen that's MASSIVELY weaker than his current auras is even dumber than just not reading Oath of Moment correctly, tbh.

 alextroy wrote:
I see two possibilities:

You can attack with all the melee weapons you are armed with

You can attack with only one melee weapon you are armed with

Either way, it is easy to include a bullet note much like that on the Cyclone Missile Launcher that limits or adds to your fighting ability over multiple weapons.

I can certainly see the standard being fight with 1 melee weapon with the extra weapons having a symbol that means “this model may fight with this weapon in addition to the other weapons it is armed with”.

Certainly hope you have to choose one weapon, guilliman can output 49 damage in one round if not ..

Even if it's true, he's choosing between 28 and 21 damage a turn which seems a bit beyond the 'lower lethality' they've been touting....

I don't really care if they make day one Space Marines instagib everything they see, the people who should care are the Space Marine players because if they are too good GW will have to do a Votann on them and just smash their rules into smithereens in the first balance dataslate or hit the +20% points panic button. A hyper lethal army that can focus down one or two key units per turn while themselves being reasonably resilient sounds like a balancing nightmare that gets solved by them being a bit too expensive to ruin everyone else's day.

tneva82 wrote:
Guess 40k players need to learn trick aos players have had to learn long time ago and screen units you don't want be charged

Worry when those termies fly.

We are used to stuff that can do t1 charge high speed and usually can kill what it targets. Mawkrusha usually kills what it wants and can cover 36" before charge. You learn to screen when that comes around

But like I said it is just a sign of the lethality of 9th when you are bubble wrapping for example 10 CSM, DG or TS terminators with cultists/rubrics/tzaangors/poxwalkers during deployment while standing the entire formation behind a massive opaque wall.

The more lethal the first army released is, the sooner the lethality arms race begins again. If devastating turn one shooting phases or combat phases are a tactical possibility, you ignore all the too big to hide units in your codex or too fragile to survive behind a wall units and instead focus on the usual suspects that can "hide" and then get off their own devastating turn one/two shooting/combat phases (pre game move, drop pod, deep strike, teleport, death star, perma wrap, etc).

Aash wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

Kill your target and Oaths applies to the second unit's target and off you go again with the same lethality.

Alternatively put two units into the primary Oath target and one into the secondary Oath target.

Not how Oath of Moment works.

In your command phase you choose ONE (and only one) target for the Oath. Every unit in your army gets rerolls against that one target.

If you wipe it out? No more Oath of Moment bonus until your next command phase, when you again choose ONE (and only) target, against which every unit in your army will get rerolls.

Today’s article revealed Guilliman’s datasheet with this special rule:

Master of Battle: After you have selected an enemy unit using the Oath of Moment ability, select a second enemy unit. Until the start of your next Command phase, if the first unit selected has been destroyed, each time a friendly ADEPTUS ASTARTES model makes an attack that targets that second enemy unit, you can re-roll the Hit roll and you can re-roll the Wound roll.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/02/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marines-2/

Ahhh. Sorry didn't read the Guilliman entry. Sorry to prematurely correct someone... With this interaction, it does certainly function as described- my bad.

I think it's odd that people are surprised that a Primarch is dangerous in combat.

 Hellebore wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I see two possibilities:

You can attack with all the melee weapons you are armed with

You can attack with only one melee weapon you are armed with

Either way, it is easy to include a bullet note much like that on the Cyclone Missile Launcher that limits or adds to your fighting ability over multiple weapons.

I can certainly see the standard being fight with 1 melee weapon with the extra weapons having a symbol that means “this model may fight with this weapon in addition to the other weapons it is armed with”.

Certainly hope you have to choose one weapon, guilliman can output 49 damage in one round if not ..

Even if it's true, he's choosing between 28 and 21 damage a turn which seems a bit beyond the 'lower lethality' they've been touting....

The potential damage is not that big a deal (assuming one weapon rather than both). It's much more important to look at the average results. Against a Space Marine (T4, Sv 3+, W 2), Guilliman kills 8 models on average with the Emperor's Sword and 5 Models with the Hand of Dominion. Not too crazy if he has to choose between the two weapons. Put him into a Rhino and it drops to 7 (ES) and 17 (HoD).

17 Wounds with the Hand of Dominion for targets T8-13 with Sv 3+? Keep your tanks and monsters away from Roboute!

I would like to know, if they are separating out the marine chapters again, whether the harlequins and ynnari will get their own books?

It would be a bitter pill but in keeping with GW's treatment of non marines that the expansion of factions only affected marines (armies of 1000 troops each...) and not anyone else (there are more harlequins and ynnari than all non codex marine chapters combined....).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think it's odd that people are surprised that a Primarch is dangerous in combat.

Surprised? No. Dissapointed at their inclusion in 40k at all? Absolutely.

 Hellebore wrote:
Certainly hope you have to choose one weapon, guilliman can output 49 damage in one round if not ..

Even if it's true, he's choosing between 28 and 21 damage a turn which seems a bit beyond the 'lower lethality' they've been touting....

At present Bobby has 7 S12 AP3 D4 attacks. He would have had access to doctrine AP increases and gives himself rerolls to hit as well as +1Adv/Charge. Compare to 7 S14 A4 D4 with Lethal Hits. Lethal Hits is useful against big targets, but not really much on smaller models.

His other weapon is current 7 S8 AP4 D3 with 6s to wound doing D3 MW in addition to other damage. This is him against terminators :

OLD
7 * .998 * .167 * 2 = 2.3
7 * .998 * .167 * .666 * 3 = 2.3
7 * .998 * .666 * .666 * 3 = 9.3

13.9

NEW
14 * .833 * .167 * 2 = 3.9
14 * .833 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 10.3

14.2

So the 14 attacks LOOKS scary, but it's not really much different than before and is *strictly worse* when the target isn't packing an invulnerable save.

Also, his invuln dropped to a 4+, but his rez went flat 6. He's a sidegrade, but just more interesting than he used to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellebore wrote:
I would like to know, if they are separating out the marine chapters again, whether the harlequins and ynnari will get their own books?

It would be a bitter pill but in keeping with GW's treatment of non marines that the expansion of factions only affected marines (armies of 1000 troops each...) and not anyone else (there are more harlequins and ynnari than all non codex marine chapters combined....).

There's a picture from GW floating around that has images for all the factions getting their own datacard packs. I think it was from the stream, but can't find it atm. I don't recall if they were split there or not.

Imperial and Chaos Knights were in the same pack, I believe.

Cautiously optimistic about how the Gladius taskforce stuff seems to work. It looks like you get a special ability (the doctrines) based on the detachment you take plus at least one stratagem seems to be based on your detachment.

It sounds like that could be really close to the "army themes" thing I've been on about for a while. A small number of easy-to-manage rules to make your army play differently from another army using the same codex.

The weapons still feel a bit weird to me, but we'll see how they look once we have more context.

Roboute gaining Lone Operative while near other units is an interesting way to give him character protection without sticking him into a squad. Could be easy enough to do something similar with the court of the archon models.

I feel like Roboute's melee weapons must surely be an either/or option. If he's swinging all those attacks in the same phase in an edition that's striving to be less lethal, what must his pricetag look like?

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Cautiously optimistic about how the Gladius taskforce stuff seems to work. It looks like you get a special ability (the doctrines) based on the detachment you take plus at least one stratagem seems to be based on your detachment.

My question is: So other SM formations don't use Doctrines?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Cautiously optimistic about how the Gladius taskforce stuff seems to work. It looks like you get a special ability (the doctrines) based on the detachment you take plus at least one stratagem seems to be based on your detachment.

My question is: So other SM formations don't use Doctrines?

Probably not. A Decent of Angels detachment that concentrates on Jump Troops and Drop Pods would operate very differently than a Gladius Strikeforce.

Seems rather limiting to me.

Doctrines seem... well... intrinsic to Marines. They're doctrines.

Oaths of Moment seem more like something that wouldn't be present all the time.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Seems rather limiting to me.

Doctrines seem... well... intrinsic to Marines. They're doctrines.

Oaths of Moment seem more like something that wouldn't be present all the time.

Doctrines could be superseded by more pertinent tactics for certain deployments. This could represent that they don't carry specific gear on certain missions or drill a different set of training patterns before a drop that overwrites old reflexive actions with new ones.