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Ghidorah wrote:
Sorry. Don't like 'em.


Ghidorah

Shocking...

... What's that supposed to mean? Are you insinuating that I dislike SOOO many things that it has become the norm?

*sheesh*

Everyone's a Godzilla fan.



Ghidorah
who needs a 300' tall hug.

Ghidorah wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Someone claims that GW never made Female Space Marines, then it gets disproven.

Don't get too smug. "Disproven" is a stretch at best. Granted, you did show a pic of a GW female model in power armor. I must concede that point (I totally forgot about that mini, too). However, that mini is not a "Space Marine", let alone, a female Space Marine. That model is a novelty casting much like the Space Santa, Space Skeleton, and the infamous Marine on the toilet. Hence the silly text that accompanied the release of that mini. They specifically said that she was NOT a Space Marine and that they (female SM) cannot exist.

So, yeah, you found a female model in power armor from GW. Fair enough. But it isn't a "female Space Marine" and it doesn't exactly disprove.

There are no literal female Space Marines. Or ghosts. Or good My Chemical Romance songs. Or yummy tofu dishes for that matter.




Ghidorah

First it's 'There never was one single one!" Now, we've determined that yes there was. In fact, there was more then one.




Now this (as far as I know) never went further. (Thank god, the sculpts were horrible back then) but... I'm given to understand that quite a few of the 'Adventurers" line were sculpts that had been done with an eye toward other projects and when they did not go through were reused. So I'd say that at some point early on, they probably did look into making a full on female space marine line, but for some reason decided not to. Looking at the sculpts, I think I can hazard a guess why...


One thing that I have been mulling over: Can someone tell me where in the fluff, as opposed to chaos necrons, it says that Female Space Marines are impossible? I've been trying to find it and so far have drawn a big blank.

"Can someone tell me where in the fluff, as opposed to chaos necrons, it says that Female Space Marines are impossible? I've been trying to find it and so far have drawn a big blank. "

That's because there really isn't any fluff that says female marines are possible.

Its an infinite universe, go for it!

BaronIveagh wrote:
One thing that I have been mulling over: Can someone tell me where in the fluff, as opposed to chaos necrons, it says that Female Space Marines are impossible? I've been trying to find it and so far have drawn a big blank.

Right here:

Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes a neophyte. After the organ implantation process he becomes an initiate.

Taken from http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Requirements but it was orginally on the GW website and in Index Astartes volume 1.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Space Marines are bio-enhanced supersoldiers who pretty much answer to no one but their own officers and the Emperor... and the Inquisition.... sometimes.

More than sometimes. The inqusition hosts their own chapter of the space marines that serve and fight for the Inqusition itself.

You could always use the excuse of "the warp/chaos did it".

BaronIveagh wrote:First it's 'There never was one single one!" Now, we've determined that yes there was. In fact, there was more then one.

Again with the smarmy, smug tone. Feel pretty full of yourself because you found two pictures of novelty miniatures? Feeling a bit "I told you so, nyahh- nyahh" now? GG.

Grimtuff wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
One thing that I have been mulling over: Can someone tell me where in the fluff, as opposed to chaos necrons, it says that Female Space Marines are impossible? I've been trying to find it and so far have drawn a big blank.

Right here:

Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes a neophyte. After the organ implantation process he becomes an initiate.

Taken from http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Requirements but it was orginally on the GW website and in Index Astartes volume 1.

And there you go. Grimtuff says it all. End of story, as far as I am concerned.


So, I am going to walk away from your smugnessocityism and the rest of this derailed conversation before I get reported for saying not-so-nice stuff... again...




Ghidorah
who hates taking the high road, although the view is usually nicer...

GEEK FIGHT!!!! PLACE YOUR BETS LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!!


Sorry...I just had to say that!

Lexarcanum, the Wikipedia of 40k, is not what anyone should consider a reliable source since members can edit it.

The article in Lexarcanum was altered from what it says in Index Astartes, which at NO POINT says that a subject must be male (you hae to be tough, mutation free, and oh, survive the process), to include that the subject must be male by a user called acidface sometime in the last year if you look up the alteration history. GW also says NOTHING about being male as a requirement.


Sorry, guys, someone has punked you with fanon.

This on of the reasons that books > the internets...

Oh, God. Let me find the quote.

Here it is:

THey must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.

Index Astartes Vol. I: Rites of Initiation.

So as you can see, no female marines exist in canon. Any female marine model is in fact a novelty model, and female marine armies are novelty armies. Yes they may be excellently converted and painted, like Dr. Thunder, but so are some of the other themed armies out there.

Is it just me or did this thread turn into another one of those "There are no female Astartes"-threads... I'm asking because I wonder where the diorama went


OP: Nice looking conversions, I also stand by the "no female marines"-argument, but as you said, you did this for fun. I will in no way take part in the useless and evidently endless discussion of Females as astartes.

Loking forward to seeing the actual diorama

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:So as you can see, no female marines exist in canon.

Not at all. All that quote proves is that no female marines can be created using the normal process.

It falls a long way short of saying that female marines can never, ever exist.

Ah, I've found where it says that, under the picture of the guy with what looks like a cross between a plasmagun and a flamer. It's not up in the beginning where they discuss the biological requirements, but back under the section on recruitment. No page numbers were sited so it took a while to find that statement.

Ok: I cede the point, it does say that. It also says all 20 primarchs were found, with each one leading their respective legions and a few paragraphs before the male thing that if you cannot be hypnotized, you cannot be a space marine. Wouldn't that mean that anyone with the willpower or sense of self to be a good space marine would be unable to become a space marine???

I could tear the whole thing apart, since none of the organs would be effected by differing levels of testosterone or estrogen. Also, last I heard, genetic material is not generated as a function of memory, but rather by eons of evolution in an enviroment, nor would anything be able to sequence DNA to extract useful information in an environment such as the stomach. The sheer volume of environmental contamination would make this feat near impossible. Any information the Marines was able to derive from this would be useless as they would have to alter their own DNA, which would be mutation and therefor bad.

Oh, and your skin darkens in response to ultraviolet radiation on it's own. From what I can tell this organ exists solely so that all marines in a particular chapter have the same skin tone.

And before anyone says Biscopea: this organ would work by releasing Myostatin inhibitors, as that particular hormone is what limits muscle growth in humans. Chemically it would have very little to do with testosterone.


And yes, this discussion is starting to devolve into the sort of thing that goes on over at the Marvel or DC message boards, particularly RE Infinite Crisis or House of M.


On day I will amuse myself by buying GW and issuing a line of Female Space Marines and Commisars on Jetbikes. I will then sit back and watch the fireworks of people's heads exploding.

insaniak wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:So as you can see, no female marines exist in canon.

Not at all. All that quote proves is that no female marines can be created using the normal process.

It falls a long way short of saying that female marines can never, ever exist.

Nope, it means that they wont be Astartes (Space Marines) if they don't use that process. Big beefy women with the same skills? Whatever, its your money. Space Marines? No.

BaronIveagh wrote:Ah, I've found where it says that, under the picture of the guy with what looks like a cross between a plasmagun and a flamer. It's not up in the beginning where they discuss the biological requirements, but back under the section on recruitment. No page numbers were sited so it took a while to find that statement.

Ok: I cede the point, it does say that. It also says all 20 primarchs were found, with each one leading their respective legions and a few paragraphs before the male thing that if you cannot be hypnotized, you cannot be a space marine. Wouldn't that mean that anyone with the willpower or sense of self to be a good space marine would be unable to become a space marine???

I could tear the whole thing apart, since none of the organs would be effected by differing levels of testosterone or estrogen. Also, last I heard, genetic material is not generated as a function of memory, but rather by eons of evolution in an enviroment, nor would anything be able to sequence DNA to extract useful information in an environment such as the stomach. The sheer volume of environmental contamination would make this feat near impossible. Any information the Marines was able to derive from this would be useless as they would have to alter their own DNA, which would be mutation and therefor bad.

Oh, and your skin darkens in response to ultraviolet radiation on it's own. From what I can tell this organ exists solely so that all marines in a particular chapter have the same skin tone.

And before anyone says Biscopea: this organ would work by releasing Myostatin inhibitors, as that particular hormone is what limits muscle growth in humans. Chemically it would have very little to do with testosterone.


And yes, this discussion is starting to devolve into the sort of thing that goes on over at the Marvel or DC message boards, particularly RE Infinite Crisis or House of M.


On day I will amuse myself by buying GW and issuing a line of Female Space Marines and Commisars on Jetbikes. I will then sit back and watch the fireworks of people's heads exploding.

You can rip apart anything GW if you want. That isn't a challenge. Saying you can point out GW's fluff and logical inconstancies is like saying you can win a race against a shackled opponent. With a head start.

What if that opponent was Chuck Norris?

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:

Nope, it means that they wont be Astartes (Space Marines) if they don't use that process. Big beefy women with the same skills? Whatever, its your money. Space Marines? No.

You can rip apart anything GW if you want. That isn't a challenge. Saying you can point out GW's fluff and logical inconstancies is like saying you can win a race against a shackled opponent. With a head start.

Walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. I think GW deliberately makes inconsistencies to watch the fans duke it out over trivial gak.

Of course, this argument is just a warm up, I'm waiting for one of two things to happen. SWTOR comes out and people start making Light Side Sith, which will lead to fanboy spontaneous combustion, or Joe Queseda leaves Marvel and everything done while he was there gets retconned by his replacement to appease fans, leading to fanmageddon as Pre-House of M fans do battle with Post House of M fans.

Let Mortal Kombat begin!

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, only in this case, it can't be a duck on a biological level. According to canon.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Nope, it means that they wont be Astartes (Space Marines) if they don't use that process.

So... if I make a plate out of baked clay, and then make another plate out of cast aluminium... which one is really a plate, and which one is something else?

Hmm, in the risk of turning it into an ethical debate...this could probably best be compared to the transsexual discussion. A man who underwent a sex-change in order to become a woman. Is that person a woman, or a man? Or maybe both? The looks, voice, character, etc etc are all of a woman, the gender (social construct) of this person is a woman. The sex (biological part) however isn't fully like that of a woman because the person lacks a womb and several of the other female reproductive organs.

With the female Space Marines the same could be said, it has the functions and the skills of the Space Marine, but she does not have the same biology as a Space Marine, thus...

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, only in this case, it can't be a duck on a biological level. According to canon.

I am not getting into the debate on Female Space Marines, I only want to point out that the term Canon is only to be used when misspelling Cannon with regards to GW, because they do not support the idea that one should maintain Canon/Continuity/etc.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
According to canon.

Except that GW says there is no such thing as canon, so that flushes itself.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
So as you can see, no female marines exist

Ummm, male marines don't exist either. It's pretend

I love the way they all look especially the black temparet. i give them two thumbs up. you should do one in chaos. like have one for Iron warriors, Night lords, World eaters, Thousand sons........ETC now that would be cool.

Spiffy Paint! Now I like em while before I was just "Meh..."

Holy Ghostriders! I love the tech marine!

I love the work, great job! I just noticed one discrepency. The black templars symbol is always black, I know there's creative licence when painting models and all that stuff, but if you're looking for something that accurately depicts the chapter, the symbol should be black.

Other than that, keep up the good work!

THIS THREAD GOT HIJACKED.

It is a pity too. I think the fluff is mainly to keep people in the "imperium" frame of mind.

LONG LIVE THE BOOBS

Kreedos wrote:I love the work, great job! I just noticed one discrepency. The black templars symbol is always black, I know there's creative licence when painting models and all that stuff, but if you're looking for something that accurately depicts the chapter, the symbol should be black.

Other than that, keep up the good work!

actually she could be a assult marine or sword brethran. there symbol is red. but if she were a normal Black Templar then it would be black. so you are wrong kreedos.

Actually she could be a assult marine or sword brethran. there symbol is red. but if she were a normal Black Templar then it would be black. so you are wrong kreedos.

Even in this case isn't the symbol black with a red outline and not just red? She would have to be wearing a jump pack as well to be an assault marine right? Seeing as all of the other chapter women are force commanders and such, I figured this one wouldn't be any different. This doesn't mean I'm wrong in any respect it just means it's open to interpretation, most of the Black Templar wear a black symbol with white shoulder pads.