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Would GW care so much if the "cheaters" didnt win anything?

Why do i have a weird feeling that they are banning Karol from future competitions because they are afraid of his/her talents? Its a good chance to eliminate a future rival ?

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Everyone loves a common enemy. I don't think people should care this much. I mean, it's just painting, it's not like the game, the REAL part, is affected

Yeah, but it was THE painting competition. Even if a GW or independent retailer had a painting comp and someone entered stuff that wasn't theirs, it still the fact that they are cheating. Period. Somewhere in this thread, pages ago, someone made the analogy of Bonds and roids. It's still cheating and look how that was on sports talk radio forever. People care when others think they are so awesome that the rules don't apply to them. That's why I think people are so worked up about it.

The game, the REAL part, is centred around sportsmanship. The painting comps should be too. What if it was discovered that the winner of a GT had an extra 200 points on the board and mashed everyone by turn 4? In principle, it is the same thing.

LunaHound wrote:
Would GW care so much if the "cheaters" didnt win anything?

Why do i have a weird feeling that they are banning Karol from future competitions because they are afraid of his/her talents? Its a good chance to eliminate a future rival ?

I think you're a wee bit paranoid there.

Karol is an incredibly talented painter., but whether he enters in the future or not, there will be other talented painters entering. Why would eliminating him have any effect on the judges? He's not a rival to "them" (those with the power to ban him).

Personally I don't have any problem with Karol. He got paid for his talent, and as a bonus got one of the highest accolades in the hobby for his work. It's all win for him. Even posting his win on CMON just shows good business sense. It's all up to the guy who entered to put things right.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:He claimed he didn't know that Marc submitted it, even though he changed his pictures to say "Golden Demon Winner."

Actually, going by his comments on CMON, he knew that Marc was submitting it, just not that he was submitting it under his own name.

I suspect that the original agreement was for Marc to submit the minis in proxy as Karols. Which (according to various posts elsewhere) is allowed in some GDs. Just not the one in question.

insaniak wrote:I suspect that the original agreement was for Marc to submit the minis in proxy as Karols. Which (according to various posts elsewhere) is allowed in some GDs. Just not the one in question.

If this is allowed in some GDs, it's very possible that it was just an oversight by Karol! I think people are coming down too hard on him (and Marc) without having all of the facts. What if they simply didn't read the submission rules? You can say "tough cookies" but it means they committed a silly mistake, not a heinous act of subterfuge. And since they will pay the penalty (a stiff one), there's really no need to attack them as people without knowing if it was simply an error.

I especially think that Dave Taylor's blog post was too harsh. Here's a quote:

Dave Taylor blog wrote:I wish you nothing but unhappiness in your future toy soldier endeavors. You sully the hobby. While the painting may be spectacular, the spirit is so false it makes my skin crawl!
...
Edit: perhaps I was overly harsh on Karol. I'm not sure.

We're acting like a judge passing down a sentence, without a jury or a trial... (my wife had jury duty yesterday, so maybe my mind is on this )

The community always judges. It's what people do. They have opinions. Nothing wrong with that so long as they don't grab pitchforks and torches ;-)

It will all get sorted out and GW seems to be reacting responsibly, getting all sides and taking steps to correct th problem. While Marc's behavior was deplorable, the reaction and handling incident reflects well on the GDs.

Frazzled wrote:Here's an OT question:

*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.

Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.

I think such an army should be disqualified from "Best Painted" and the painting should not count towards "Best Overall".

If you didn't actually *paint* the army then how can that score count towards Best Overall? If you think that it can, then can I hire a guy to *play* the game for me if I painted the army? How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?

Personally I think we cheapen the "Best Overall" if we allow purchased painted armies to count towards it. At that point it just becomes "Best General with the Deepest Pockets".

The Green Git wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Here's an OT question:

*what if you buy a painted army and take to a tournament, but point out to everyone it wasn't painted by you/or tell judges ahead of time about it and you're out of running for any painting awards.

Any issue (I wouldn't see one). I could see taking a painted army to a tournament if that was noted and you weren't competing on the painting side-aka just came to play.

I think such an army should be disqualified from "Best Painted" and the painting should not count towards "Best Overall".

If you didn't actually *paint* the army then how can that score count towards Best Overall? If you think that it can, then can I hire a guy to *play* the game for me if I painted the army? How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?

Personally I think we cheapen the "Best Overall" if we allow purchased painted armies to count towards it. At that point it just becomes "Best General with the Deepest Pockets".

Actually if you check the rules this situation is specifically addressed. GW doesn't have a problem with it as long as you remove yourself from consideration for certain awards.

...anyone can field an army they did
not paint themselves.
Before the tournament begins, everyone will be asked if they
painted their own army. Those that did are eligible for all the
awards we will present at the end of each event. Those that did
not are only eligible for the Best General, Best Sportsmanship,
and Favorite Opponent awards.

The Fraud with at Chicago's GD 2009 is a completely different situation. There is no excuse for what happened. Anyone who suggests that any of us are unfairly judging Karol or Marc, is completely off base IMO. This was a PAINTING competition. You don't enter a piece that YOU didn't paint, and you are responsible for reading the rules before you enter any competition of any kind. Should it just be overlooked if I bring a 8,000 pt army to a tournament of only 1750pts, just because I didn't read the rules. "Gee I guess it was just a silly mistake that my Titan found its way into my army list right? Lets just overlook it this time, okay?" Karol is hardly not to blame either as he used the GD win as a way to promote his painting commission sales, and this is not the first time he has been involved in such a situation.

I am happy to see Karol's listings have been removed from Coolminiornot. Not sure if this was the doing of CMON, or Karol himself.

So he shouldn't be recognized as a painter because he didn't buy a plane ticket to the competition?

No but he shouldn't be using the exploits of the competition to advertise his painting services.

Should I be given awards from a Grand Tournament if you use my painted army to win it with?

If Karol want's recognition for his painting skills he should preference any connection to the Fraudulent entry with a disclaimer that he is aware of what transpired but that it was done without his knowledge or consent. Not say, this was a GD winner buy more stuff from me! To do anything else is working as an accomplice to the fraud, at the very least after the fact and possibly before.

It seems if this is true its totally against the "spirit" of a golden demon competition

How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?

So can I get a game in then?

Personally, I'm glad to see GW, in a rare display of backbone, actually enforce their own rules.

I don't know either person involved. I have no ill-wishes towards them. I don't know if it was an honest mistake or of malicious intent. And, I don't care.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=3900014&pIndex=2&aId=16400003&start=3

GUIDELINES FOR ENTRIES
All entries must be personally handed in by their creator and registered at Games Day on the day. We will not accept any entries on behalf of competitors who are not in attendance at the event. All entries must be collected from the show stands at specified times by the entrant in person. These times will be published in the Games Day program and will be announced over the PA system on the day. All models should be the work of a single hobbyist. All work on models entered into the Golden Demon including but not limited to painting, modeling, converting, after-market sculpting, and basing must be performed entirely by the entrant. Neither models obtained from someone else in any state of completion nor collaborative efforts may be entered. Anyone found violating this rule will be immediately disqualified and forbidden from entering future Golden Demon painting competitions.

It establishes the guidelines pretty clearly.
1. Must be handed in by the creator. And, if even specifically states that you can't hand in someone else's work.
2. Must be the work of one hobbyist Even states that it can't be bought at any stage of completion or a collaborative effort - just one person!
3. Anyone violating the rules will be disbarred and permanently banned.

Now, I suppose it's not clear if the Submitter or the Creator are banned, or both, since that isn't explicately stated.

Whether you think the punishment is excessively harsh or not (personally, I would think something like a 10 year ban suitable, but hey - it's GW's contest!), at least they are enforcing their own requirements.

blood angel wrote:So he shouldn't be recognized as a painter because he didn't buy a plane ticket to the competition?

He can be recognized if he bothers to show up. Otherwise, err, no! I think the idea of proxy entries are lame. The competition is part of the event. If you can't make that one of the Gamesdays there are a couple others. If you can't make those there is always the next year. This is like what a six time or more a year event, if someone can't be bothered to make one, they can either wait or just not participate.

Even if the rules allowed it, which in this case they didn't, the rules should probably be changed to disallow it.

I think the reason they don't allow proxy submissions is to prevent someone from trying to monopolize all the Golden Daemons. It would be easy to ship an entry and have a friend enter it for you. This way, either someone pays for a lot of airfare, or they're probably only going to collect GDs at two, maybe three, events a year. It gives other people a chance to win something.

RiTides Nids wrote:

insaniak wrote:I suspect that the original agreement was for Marc to submit the minis in proxy as Karols. Which (according to various posts elsewhere) is allowed in some GDs. Just not the one in question.

If this is allowed in some GDs, it's very possible that it was just an oversight by Karol! I think people are coming down too hard on him (and Marc) without having all of the facts. What if they simply didn't read the submission rules? You can say "tough cookies" but it means they committed a silly mistake, not a heinous act of subterfuge. And since they will pay the penalty (a stiff one), there's really no need to attack them as people without knowing if it was simply an error.

I especially think that Dave Taylor's blog post was too harsh. Here's a quote:

Dave Taylor blog wrote:I wish you nothing but unhappiness in your future toy soldier endeavors. You sully the hobby. While the painting may be spectacular, the spirit is so false it makes my skin crawl!
...
Edit: perhaps I was overly harsh on Karol. I'm not sure.

We're acting like a judge passing down a sentence, without a jury or a trial... (my wife had jury duty yesterday, so maybe my mind is on this )

If I remember correctly, you actually have to sign for each piece you enter, acknowledging you read and understand the rules. I know they at least have copies of the rules when you go to sign up. And the guy wasn't submitting the models as Karol's. He submitted them as his. Big fething difference there.

Dave Taylor's post is spot on, in my opinion. I can't say for Karol, because I don't know how much he was involved (although I suspect he was in on it completely) What the guy did is a slap in the face to anyone who has ever entered a GD with their own work.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Are the awards for "Best Painter" or "Best Painted"? If it is the latter then I can't see any wrongdoing in hiring someone to paint a beautiful army for you to show at tourneys.

Except they're not talking about a tournament, they're talking about a highly prestigious painting competition in our hobby; a competition whose rules rather clearly state that you can only enter your own work.

(Personally, I'm not a huge fan of paying someone else to paint your army for you, either; this is an all-around hobby, paint your own minis.)

Well I wasn't sure as to the rules for the competition. Many people show cars that they customize or build up and don't do the paint work themselves but they pay well for it and deserve to win a car show. I don't see how a miniature show would be vastly different.

Your second point is a little rash in my opinion. You assume that this is an all around hobby, but for many it is not.

I have painted my own armies and I have also bought nicely painted armies second hand. I enjoy the modelling aspect a bit but my main pleasure in 40k comes from playing the game. There are many people who paint the models and like the fluff and don't play at all. They are just as much a part of this hobby as people like you who seem to look down on somebody who may not enjoy painting and has the money to have a studio paint their miniatures for them.

Historical Military Miniature Painting societies (54mm, 90mm, that sort of stuff) take fraudulent entries at their competitions very seriously. Perps are stripped of their award and basically ostracized from the community.

I think GW is just following precedent. Good on 'em.

I definitely think this needs to be looked into more.

I think a congressional hearing is in order.

This is like some kid cheating in a 4th grade art show. As far as miniature painting competitions go the GD isn't very high on the list.

I think the only reason people are getting worked up about this is because the space wolves codex isn't out yet for them to complain about.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:People are starting to rate his models with 1's on CMON (and I can't blame them)

Pretty weak if true.

I'm not sure what giving the painters models "1's" is meant to accomplish. Rate the works on their own, separate from the controversy and whatnot. CMON rating should not be for grudges against the painters and rating down things that shouldn't be downrated. If it's a beautiful work it should be rated as such, if one has complaints as to the painters ethics they should be addressed separately.

NecronLord3 wrote:

The Green Git wrote:If you didn't actually *paint* the army then how can that score count towards Best Overall? If you think that it can, then can I hire a guy to *play* the game for me if I painted the army? How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?

Personally I think we cheapen the "Best Overall" if we allow purchased painted armies to count towards it. At that point it just becomes "Best General with the Deepest Pockets".

Actually if you check the rules this situation is specifically addressed. GW doesn't have a problem with it as long as you remove yourself from consideration for certain awards.

I've been to a lot of RTT events and some Indy events that do NOT disqualify purchased paint jobs from "Best Overall". Just saying that I don't think it's right, and apparently GW agrees with me. Rock on.

Fishboy wrote:

How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?

So can I get a game in then?

Take a number. I already got mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:Some of us don't care because this is like #2,575,767,213 in great travesties in the world.

Taken in the view of the world, sure.

Taken in the view of the spirit of this forum (dakka), I am suprised a mod would have that attitude.

augustus5 wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Are the awards for "Best Painter" or "Best Painted"? If it is the latter then I can't see any wrongdoing in hiring someone to paint a beautiful army for you to show at tourneys.

Except they're not talking about a tournament, they're talking about a highly prestigious painting competition in our hobby; a competition whose rules rather clearly state that you can only enter your own work.

(Personally, I'm not a huge fan of paying someone else to paint your army for you, either; this is an all-around hobby, paint your own minis.)

Well I wasn't sure as to the rules for the competition. Many people show cars that they customize or build up and don't do the paint work themselves but they pay well for it and deserve to win a car show. I don't see how a miniature show would be vastly different.

Your second point is a little rash in my opinion. You assume that this is an all around hobby, but for many it is not.

I have painted my own armies and I have also bought nicely painted armies second hand. I enjoy the modelling aspect a bit but my main pleasure in 40k comes from playing the game. There are many people who paint the models and like the fluff and don't play at all. They are just as much a part of this hobby as people like you who seem to look down on somebody who may not enjoy painting and has the money to have a studio paint their miniatures for them.

First Point: The rules are rather clear; for GD, you have to show up with your own work and enter your own work. Clearly this was not the case here: the rule were broken, and violators must be punished.

Second Point: Maybe a little harsh, but in a setting where an Overall award was factoring in painting, I personally would step aside if I brought an army I didn't paint. I would rather take pride in my badly-painted-by-me models than something I bought off eBay. Maybe I'm in the minority, there.

Frazzled wrote:Some of us don't care because this is like #2,575,767,213 in great travesties in the world.

Thats like travesty # 432,652 for GW.

thehod wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Some of us don't care because this is like #2,575,767,213 in great travesties in the world.

Thats like travesty # 432,652 for GW.

But for the people who got cheated out of gold, this may be Travesty #1 to them. I know I'd be pissed.

dietrich wrote:Personally, I'm glad to see GW, in a rare display of backbone, actually enforce their own rules.

Accidents happen i guess...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not sure what giving the painters models "1's" is meant to accomplish. Rate the works on their own, separate from the controversy and whatnot.

Right because the Dakka galleries are never used that way...

Shaman wrote:lol at the QQ in this thread... painting toys is serious business.

And that excuses cheating...how?

Gotta say, that's a pretty piss-poor attempt to argue. "lolz why so serious?" Is it really so hard to understand?

Nothing wrong with that so long as they don't grab pitchforks and torches ;-)

*cocks shotgun*

...what? It's not a torch!

How about I hire a hooker to service my opponent while he plays so I can get a good Sports score?

I'd like a redhead.

Taken in the view of the spirit of this forum (dakka), I am suprised a mod would have that attitude.

Indeed...I mean if you want to go down that route then why is Dakka even here? We all have better things to do, surely, and just about anything else you can think of is more important than Warhammer, so...

I'll take your mod position if you don't mind.

I think we should hunt down Karol and cut off his hands so he can't paint anymore. Hell, who knows what happened, I want to feel better about myself. We should probably melt down all of his minis while we're at it.

Maybe we should beat up Frazzled too. God forbid he think that this isn't worth getting worked up over.

You'll note later in the thread I agreed with the posters that this is wrong (at least in my head, sometimes my posts never make it to the screen which is probably for the best). I'll repeat and restate-upon fruther thought I was incorrect and this is a big deal in the painting side of the community. I still don't think this means squat for the original painter because he's a painter and selling a service. The entrant though should be banned from future GW competitions and events.

RustyKnight wrote:

Maybe we should beat up Frazzled too. God forbid he think that this isn't worth getting worked up over.

You could try it but She Who Must Be Obeyed might be displeased. You don't want to make her angry. You wouldn't like her when she's angry...

She Who Must Be Obeyed might be displeased.

I now know who you are hehehe. But I will say she looks good in green too hehehe.