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The only balance i can think of is if the hammerhead had to remain stationary before using the rail gun ray of doom.....that way opponents were forced to think how they moved/placed units on their own turn...

@Reecius
I understand and agree....my initial point sounds similar to your stance... the game falls apart if you over think it.....

I just hate when people try to ignore the game effect and how unbalanced it can all get and try to use real life situations to justify a fiction based game... if it all rounds out in the end.... Im game, GW sucks at this of course...

Corsair, are you kidding? Remain stationary? How is that going to help the Tau in the slightest? Who is that really going to benefit? That would be like putting a final nail in the Hammerheads coffin.

At the end of the day, you CAN use real life to justify a fiction based game, as long as you remember to use points cost to appropriately balance it out, but in a vaccuum, if that was the only change to the Tau Codex, even if they kept the price of the HH the same, it still wouldn't be enough to fix Tau.

Absolutionis - As a fellow Eldar player: Deal with it.

Besides, IG did not get "superfalcons" they got a skimmer transport, thats it. It is nowhere near as survivable as a Falcon with holofields and not nearly as mobile as a Falcon with Star Engines. Yeah, it might be able to carry a somewhat heavier armament and more troops, but I've never really been impressed by a Valk like I have by a Falc. Besides, Valks have been around through Forgeworld for a very very long time. The only real similarity is that its a skimmer transport. Guess what, Tau and Dark Eldar have those too...

Nor did BA get a "super wave serpent," all what it does is ignore the melta effect, guess what necrons have it too, that rule is hardly new. Besides, the stormraven costs almost as much as a Landraider, and is much easier to take down.

Lances are also hardly anything special... Dark Eldar have had them for over a decade.

And really? You're complaining about someone else having weapons function like Vibrocannons? Do you actually ever USE Vibrocannons? I, being an Eldar player... in an area where 50% of the 40k population also plays Eldar... have NEVER SEEN ANYONE USE A VIBROCANNON. So... don't complain.

I think remain stationary would balance a deffrolla that can reach out and touch you from across the table. Sure its like an anti vehicle jaws. But jaws was pretty stupid from GWs part. Sure we have learned to live with it, but it was a bad idea, and one bad idea shouldnt be followed by many more identical ideas. I wouldnt be surprised though if it could do something where it fires the railgun into the first vehicle, and then hits the second one with a krak missile strength shot, and stops there. Losing the ap1 and S10 would balance it out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

micahaphone wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The 15 inch Rapid Fire range is what I have advocated for months as a fix to Fire Warriors.

Plenty of dedicated assault troops have over 12 inch assault range so it does not make the Fire Warrior immune to assault.

Good point, but can you imagine how much some people would complain? "Wat mah spess mehrines can't use the chainssorde to go choppa choppa and make the fish people into sush???? Naoo Fare!!!"

I agree, space marine players are 12 year old silly-billies with no sense of game balance or basic tactics!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sidstyler wrote:"Waah, Eldar aren't the best at everything!"

Yeah, I suppose Tau shouldn't change at all and should just continue sucking so they don't step on anyone's toes.

Sorry if I sound like an ass, I just get real defensive when people start "hating" on Tau. Seeing as how it was my first army, currently my only army since I lack the cash to build another one, and I've spent the past 3 years collecting and playing them. So it's fair to say I'm pretty well-invested in Tau and don't want another gakky codex.

He raises a fairly valid point. A lot of the cool things eldar had have been handed away to other armies. This is largely due to their book essentially being a reprint of the 3rd edition codex in almost all things.

As far as tau sucking, def not. They arent the best army out there. But tau can bring some solid tools to the table and really ruin someone elses day. The problem is a lot of tau players havent advanced tactics in the last few years, so are still stuck scratching their heads when fish of fury tactics dont work anymore. And hammerheads, which were never that great, are just a bad choice.

What will probably happen, as seems to have been the trend, is gw will make a new or obscure choice boss, and broadsides and hammerheads will start to suck. Look at the introduction of the tyrannofex, tervigon, and trygon in the nid book, and the weakening of hive tyrants and carnifexs. I personally hope they keep the book the same. If I start a new army itll be tau or demons, and I like the current codex.

Eidolon wrote: The problem is a lot of tau players havent advanced tactics in the last few years, so are still stuck scratching their heads when fish of fury tactics dont work anymore.

The only other tactic to emerge has been ninja tau, which doesn't even do that well. It's not that the tau players aren't thinking, it's that there isn't anything else that allows them to level the playing field.

Chaos omega - EVER weapon got less powerful at taking down vehicles compared to 4th, even melta are on averae slightly worse off.

The railgun is still THE *at range* Antitank. Melta close range.

From a design standpoint, this is how I see Tau:

We are the army that is suppose to be the shooty army... unfortunately we have some glaring weakness:

1.) BS 3:
Hitting half the time with our elite troops, sure we can raise it potentially to 5 with markerlights but then we have to invest points into a overpriced transport (more on that later) and stationary troops (more on that later)
2.) Cover
We have the option of taking a fair amount of S7 AP4 and S6 Ap2 guns with our elite slots and a lot of S10 Ap 1 with our heavy support choices... unfortunately it is easy to get a cover save in this game that would give back a save to those we paid a heavy price to take away.
Luckily we have a way of dealing with cover. We used to be the only army with a way of dealing with cover but with our new IG, they now can deal with cover by shooting more shots, and forcing re-rolls... All without taking having to invest points into a overpriced transport (more on that later) and stationary troops (more on that later)
3.) Speed
With the new BA codex, the new Tyranid codex, we can no longer rely on our 6" move JSJ or our 12" multi-tracker vehicles to stay out of the deadly assault range. With all our speed, we become a gunline army with only a dozen T3 4+ bodies to duke things out with...
In order to deal with point 1 and 2, we have to take pathfinders... I personally love pathfinders but anyone who has a clue on how the Tau army functions will know to take them out first. Without our Pathfinders we quickly become ineffectual IG when fighting things that generate cover saves (Mech Orks, BA, Tyranids)
4.) Cost
When building a larger list, we are often taxed for we have to spend over 360 points on the following:
A high priority infantry unit consisting of about 5 T3 4+ wounds and an overpriced Transport. Imagine if the Chimeria had 1 more side armor or the rhino had 1 more front armor but had to pay 40 more points. Sure we can pay 5 more to make them obscured but getting within 12" is no longer the problem it used to be, and now we are spending 45 points for it. In addition, Transports by themselves are 2 KP. Imagine for a moment that with all the disadvantages mention earlier about dealing with hitting our target, dealing with cover without pathfinders, and being caught easily. Now we are effectively lose annihilation matches because blowing up a devilfish and wiping the 5 man squad inside gives you 3KP.

On the Position Relay... The only thing GW has not given to anyone else, essentially it is a way to keep our glaring weaknesses off the table.

The only advantage I can think that Tau players have over other armies is that if you win with Tau, you did it by being a better player. Personally I am a little tired of playing an army that only has the advantage when a expert is behind it and a dimwit is behind the opposing army.

Tau are my only fully painted army...I would love for a new 'Dex next year.

Eidolon wrote:I think remain stationary would balance a deffrolla that can reach out and touch you from across the table. Sure its like an anti vehicle jaws. But jaws was pretty stupid from GWs part. Sure we have learned to live with it, but it was a bad idea, and one bad idea shouldnt be followed by many more identical ideas. I wouldnt be surprised though if it could do something where it fires the railgun into the first vehicle, and then hits the second one with a krak missile strength shot, and stops there. Losing the ap1 and S10 would balance it out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

micahaphone wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The 15 inch Rapid Fire range is what I have advocated for months as a fix to Fire Warriors.

Plenty of dedicated assault troops have over 12 inch assault range so it does not make the Fire Warrior immune to assault.

Good point, but can you imagine how much some people would complain? "Wat mah spess mehrines can't use the chainssorde to go choppa choppa and make the fish people into sush???? Naoo Fare!!!"

I agree, space marine players are 12 year old silly-billies with no sense of game balance or basic tactics!

.

I do hope there's some sarcasm in there young man, as an avid marine player (see my Sig) since my 3rd ed beginnings 11 years ago and who just recently used a 19 man GK army to murder an Ork horde plus vehicles, I really don't think 15" rapid fire would be bad at all, frankly I'd rather see every other codex get an update before Codex Space Marines/Wolves/BA, so that more other races get played, hell if Battlesuits weren't so bleedin' expensive I'd already have a tau army, I've wanted one for years, only army that really interests me barring Marines/Nids.

Sorry to preach but that stereotype always hits a nerve

Here here! i would kill for a tau codex myself. I got a nice 3000pts+ of tau waiting in a red and white box in my room.

Personly i would hope for an SAS type unit for elites so if your not wanting to got the whole battle suit way you could do but make it different from being the same unit just with out the armour.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chaos omega - EVER weapon got less powerful at taking down vehicles compared to 4th, even melta are on averae slightly worse off.

The railgun is still THE *at range* Antitank. Melta close range.

The railgun and other AP1 weapons were hit proportionally harder, and definitely much harder than melta weapons were.

And while we're stroking our ego's I have about 10k points of Tau that haven't been used in 2 years...

DEATH89 wrote:
I do hope there's some sarcasm in there young man, as an avid marine player (see my Sig) since my 3rd ed beginnings 11 years ago and who just recently used a 19 man GK army to murder an Ork horde plus vehicles, I really don't think 15" rapid fire would be bad at all, frankly I'd rather see every other codex get an update before Codex Space Marines/Wolves/BA, so that more other races get played, hell if Battlesuits weren't so bleedin' expensive I'd already have a tau army, I've wanted one for years, only army that really interests me barring Marines/Nids.

Sorry to preach but that stereotype always hits a nerve

Of course it was sarcasm. I also play marines in addition to nids and eldar. I just find that anytime some xenos player complains about his codex he decides to bitch about marines being incredibly broken and how stupid marine players are. Logically that statement could just as easily be

"Wat mah tua can't use the polse rifel to go shoota shoota and make the giant people into slag???? Naoo Fare!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

juraigamer wrote:

Eidolon wrote: The problem is a lot of tau players havent advanced tactics in the last few years, so are still stuck scratching their heads when fish of fury tactics dont work anymore.

The only other tactic to emerge has been ninja tau, which doesn't even do that well. It's not that the tau players aren't thinking, it's that there isn't anything else that allows them to level the playing field.

Ninja tau is terrible. If I understand it right you have one squad on the table with some beacon, and then you bring in one unit a turn from reserves until its turn 5 and the rest of your army rushes on? How is this remotely effective. Suicide suit squads arent that great, and they generally put out enough firepower at range to justify losing them. Its a crappy gimmick army. So tau went from full mech fish of fury armies and the other tactic discovered was crappier full mech reserve? Ill just hand full board control to my opponent, the last thing the tau need.

I have found that tau are one of the tougher armies in the game to fight, lots of kroot and less worthless upgrades on your guys is the way to go.

Changes to Hammerhead Railgun rules. Essentially draws a line across table hitting everything in line. Multiple pen through vehicles, only stopped by a glancing hit.

This would actually make me afraid of Rail Guns, rather than pointing and laughing at them. Which is what I do now.

This is a subtle wish, and probably won't be talked about again, but I really wish regular ole Gun Drones were Troop choices (that could take objectives) and were a bit cheaper. Having another viable troop choice besides Firewarriors (nice shooting, but can't keep objectives well and a bit expensive) and Kroot (very cost effective, but paper thin defense unless your guarding a tree). Having a basic troop choice that could jump shoot jump would be great too. Jump away from objective to shoot than jump back to objective to secure it for the win.

Dumping gun drones from your piranhas/devilfishes would be that much better if they could do more than just contest...

Anyone agree?

ajefferism wrote:This is a subtle wish, and probably won't be talked about again, but I really wish regular ole Gun Drones were Troop choices (that could take objectives) and were a bit cheaper. Having another viable troop choice besides Firewarriors (nice shooting, but can't keep objectives well and a bit expensive) and Kroot (very cost effective, but paper thin defense unless your guarding a tree). Having a basic troop choice that could jump shoot jump would be great too. Jump away from objective to shoot than jump back to objective to secure it for the win.

Dumping gun drones from your piranhas/devilfishes would be that much better if they could do more than just contest...

Anyone agree?

I don't like the idea of gun drones as scoring. They're mindless robots and all. I do think that gundrones on vehicles shouldn't count for killpoints though. That would balance them better

ajefferism wrote:This is a subtle wish, and probably won't be talked about again, but I really wish regular ole Gun Drones were Troop choices (that could take objectives) and were a bit cheaper. Having another viable troop choice besides Firewarriors (nice shooting, but can't keep objectives well and a bit expensive) and Kroot (very cost effective, but paper thin defense unless your guarding a tree). Having a basic troop choice that could jump shoot jump would be great too. Jump away from objective to shoot than jump back to objective to secure it for the win.

Dumping gun drones from your piranhas/devilfishes would be that much better if they could do more than just contest...

Anyone agree?

I don't really see how gun drones would change the Tau troops situation that much. Gun Drones are more expensive, less efficient at shooting, roughly as survivable (when you consider the difficulty they would have claiming cover), in general not all that useful these days.

Eidolon wrote:

DEATH89 wrote:
I do hope there's some sarcasm in there young man, as an avid marine player (see my Sig) since my 3rd ed beginnings 11 years ago and who just recently used a 19 man GK army to murder an Ork horde plus vehicles, I really don't think 15" rapid fire would be bad at all, frankly I'd rather see every other codex get an update before Codex Space Marines/Wolves/BA, so that more other races get played, hell if Battlesuits weren't so bleedin' expensive I'd already have a tau army, I've wanted one for years, only army that really interests me barring Marines/Nids.

Sorry to preach but that stereotype always hits a nerve

Of course it was sarcasm. I also play marines in addition to nids and eldar. I just find that anytime some xenos player complains about his codex he decides to bitch about marines being incredibly broken and how stupid marine players are. Logically that statement could just as easily be

"Wat mah tua can't use the polse rifel to go shoota shoota and make the giant people into slag???? Naoo Fare!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

juraigamer wrote:

Eidolon wrote: The problem is a lot of tau players havent advanced tactics in the last few years, so are still stuck scratching their heads when fish of fury tactics dont work anymore.

The only other tactic to emerge has been ninja tau, which doesn't even do that well. It's not that the tau players aren't thinking, it's that there isn't anything else that allows them to level the playing field.

Ninja tau is terrible. If I understand it right you have one squad on the table with some beacon, and then you bring in one unit a turn from reserves until its turn 5 and the rest of your army rushes on? How is this remotely effective. Suicide suit squads arent that great, and they generally put out enough firepower at range to justify losing them. Its a crappy gimmick army. So tau went from full mech fish of fury armies and the other tactic discovered was crappier full mech reserve? Ill just hand full board control to my opponent, the last thing the tau need.

I have found that tau are one of the tougher armies in the game to fight, lots of kroot and less worthless upgrades on your guys is the way to go.

How can Tau players be a bit slow, and have only one tactic which doesn't work anyway, but you find the Tau Army one of the harder ones to play against?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chaos omega - EVER weapon got less powerful at taking down vehicles compared to 4th, even melta are on averae slightly worse off.

The railgun is still THE *at range* Antitank. Melta close range.

The railgun and other AP1 weapons were hit proportionally harder, and definitely much harder than melta weapons were.

And while we're stroking our ego's I have about 10k points of Tau that haven't been used in 2 years...

What happened is that some armies gained the ability to spam cheap armoured vehicles, and some armies gained the ability to spam cheap anti-tank weapons, but the Tau didn't get either.

The tau need to have larger unit caps for FW, I also think it would be cool if they came up with some sort of support drone for them, sort of like how battle suits can purchase drones.

I agree drones should not give up KP's....thats just stupid.

I think the kroot need a change, maybe to their hunting rifle, I think an assault profile could be a start, either way the ox and hounds need a change.

@chaos omega
Yea I was serious, the rail gun already has a sub munitions round, adding a higher velocity round that would require it to remain stationary would give it balance. opponents would still have to fear it as they would have to place all their armored units on their turn with that round in mind. Sure it would then require thought, but on both sides....

DEATH89 wrote:

Eidolon wrote:I think remain stationary would balance a deffrolla that can reach out and touch you from across the table. Sure its like an anti vehicle jaws. But jaws was pretty stupid from GWs part. Sure we have learned to live with it, but it was a bad idea, and one bad idea shouldnt be followed by many more identical ideas. I wouldnt be surprised though if it could do something where it fires the railgun into the first vehicle, and then hits the second one with a krak missile strength shot, and stops there. Losing the ap1 and S10 would balance it out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

micahaphone wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The 15 inch Rapid Fire range is what I have advocated for months as a fix to Fire Warriors.

Plenty of dedicated assault troops have over 12 inch assault range so it does not make the Fire Warrior immune to assault.

Good point, but can you imagine how much some people would complain? "Wat mah spess mehrines can't use the chainssorde to go choppa choppa and make the fish people into sush???? Naoo Fare!!!"

I agree, space marine players are 12 year old silly-billies with no sense of game balance or basic tactics!

.

I do hope there's some sarcasm in there young man, as an avid marine player (see my Sig) since my 3rd ed beginnings 11 years ago and who just recently used a 19 man GK army to murder an Ork horde plus vehicles, I really don't think 15" rapid fire would be bad at all, frankly I'd rather see every other codex get an update before Codex Space Marines/Wolves/BA, so that more other races get played, hell if Battlesuits weren't so bleedin' expensive I'd already have a tau army, I've wanted one for years, only army that really interests me barring Marines/Nids.

Sorry to preach but that stereotype always hits a nerve

Hey man, look at my sig! I'm a marine player, and love it! The wide variety of units and tactics, the customization, they're awesome! But the truth is that everyone, including the whiny people who hardly know how to play, have them. Sad but true. And, yes, battlesuits are fething expensive, which is why (to me) it makes sense for GW to redo them as EVEN BETTER: because each one costs $30, so a squad of 3 is $120 for 186 points on a fairly well upgraded squad.

micahaphone wrote:

Hey man, look at my sig! I'm a marine player, and love it! The wide variety of units and tactics, the customization, they're awesome! But the truth is that everyone, including the whiny people who hardly know how to play, have them. Sad but true. And, yes, battlesuits are fething expensive, which is why (to me) it makes sense for GW to redo them as EVEN BETTER: because each one costs $30, so a squad of 3 is $120 for 186 points on a fairly well upgraded squad.

Well... I buy from a store that sells %20 off... and so can get a squad of three for roughly $55. Anways, they cost $22.50 normally I believe, and even if they did cost $30, 30X3 doesn't equal $120...

But beyond that, they are pretty expensive...

Haha and they say math and science is dead in America.....

Red Corsair wrote:

@chaos omega
Yea I was serious, the rail gun already has a sub munitions round, adding a higher velocity round that would require it to remain stationary would give it balance. opponents would still have to fear it as they would have to place all their armored units on their turn with that round in mind. Sure it would then require thought, but on both sides....

I can all but assure you that no opponent would fear a line of sight weapon that requires you to maintain stationary. Its not really all that hard to avoid an immobile line of death, if it does have to remain stationary, then you basically turn the Railgun into a vibrocannon. I.E. - useless.

Heres a potential problem I see with the tau railgun of death.

Here we have a hammerhead 8, shooting into a trio of rhinos, marked 3, 2, and 1
8-----3 2 1

Blam it nails that first rhino. Only theres a building, or a hill, or smoke in the way and the rhino passes its cover save. Does the shot keep going ot does it stop right there?

Most likely GW will make it stop, or even worse ignore cover – balance fail

No no no. They won't specify in the codex, and we'll be forced to wait for an FAQ to answer it.

Oh yea, you're absolutely right.

micahaphone wrote: snip

If they gave rules for a battlesuit (or stealth suits as troops) army and lower them to Killa Kan prices GW would get a lot of money from me, FW and Kroot dont really do much for me, but then I guess that would be a cross between a sort of tau-wing and ogre kingdoms.

But I guess I'm just banging my head against the wall hoping for something to get cheaper, still makes me laugh that my GK's we're my cheapest army....

Eidolon wrote:Ninja tau is terrible. If I understand it right you have one squad on the table with some beacon, and then you bring in one unit a turn from reserves until its turn 5 and the rest of your army rushes on? How is this remotely effective. Suicide suit squads arent that great, and they generally put out enough firepower at range to justify losing them. Its a crappy gimmick army. So tau went from full mech fish of fury armies and the other tactic discovered was crappier full mech reserve? Ill just hand full board control to my opponent, the last thing the tau need.

I was going to say something before, but it looks like you do know what you're talking about.

As far as the talk of battlesuits goes, I have about 12-15 battlesuits already, but if GW makes a nice new kit for them I'll gladly replace every one of them...and then some.

If the price is right anyway...

The new battlesuit kits will be the best looking models GW has ever put out. With the most options of any kit. But they will be solid pewter and cost 35 bucks each. You heard it here first people.

Eidolon wrote:The new battlesuit kits will be the best looking models GW has ever put out. With the most options of any kit. But they will be solid pewter and cost 35 bucks each. You heard it here first people.

No, they'll be plastic and come three to a box for $58. The box will have all the options (not including drones), but only one of each. One plasma rifle, one missile pod, one fusion blaster, one flamer, one burst cannon and one railgun because they've combined the kit with the broadside.