Kilkrazy wrote:It doesn't because it isn't in the suit.

NoseGoblin wrote:You are correct, but the crux of my question, is who holds the original rights? if GW made a "derivative of a Lucas Arts IP, would not Lucas Arts actually own the IP? And if so, what rights does GW have to sue over something that is not their IP?

Kanluwen wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
I sympathized with the desire folks have to see talented sculptors making NEW and different stuff, but I have to disagree with your last two sentences.

Just by Chapterhouse and similar companies existing and making their stuff, my hobby is better. I have never yet bought any of their stuff, but I have the OPTION to buy a Tervigon conversion kit, or a Farseer on Jetbike conversion kit, which GW has thus far failed to provide me and which I am personally unable to sculpt to an acceptable (to me) level of attractiveness. Just by them putting out their near-Salamanders conversion kits, I've gotten to see more and more impressive Salamanders armies at tournaments. Having more options makes our hobby better.

GW shutting down these companies would only make things worse for everyone, IMO. It would deny the fans options to better enjoy GW's games and models, it would deny these little companies their small business, and it would deny GW the sales of models needed to actually USE the Jetbikeseer and Tervigon conversion kits.

I can understand the desire to have the options, but to me it has always felt kind of like they cater to a slothful community, if that makes any sense.

We just don't see the kinds of epic conversions or themed armies we used to, in my opinion. Is Chapterhouse necessarily the cause of this with their pandering to the community when it comes to things like the Jet Bikeseer or the Salamander cloaks, etc? Is Games Workshop responsible because they don't give the players the framework to really do them? No, not really on both counts.

But they don't do anything to really help the situation. It's representative, in my opinion, of a kind of paradigm shift in the community from themed armies and heavy conversion work being the norm rather than the outlier like it is now. Everyone's forces really look the same.

Big P wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

We just don't see the kinds of epic conversions or themed armies we used to, in my opinion.

No you dont... Cos it too bloody expensive to buy all the bits you need from GW!

Someone take the GW-Dripfeed out of his arm... He is ODing.

Kanluwen wrote:

jmurph wrote:Really Kanluwen? Not as much effort? Have you been to any larger events? Because these Adepticon armies look pretty involved:
http://www.gmmstudios.com/gallery/alpha/40k/CHAOS/index.php

And I'm saying that things like that have become the exception, not the rule. I'm not saying that heavily converted and gorgeously painted armies don't exist anymore--because they do.

I'm saying that they've become rare, and you end up seeing more 'stock' armies than anything else.

Kanluwen wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Yes, we've established that you "cannot trademark or copyright a geometric shape".

But I'd suggest that you look up "Trade Dress" and think about how it relates to this situation.

It doesn't.

Kan, you are now arguing with an actual IP lawyer over what is relevant. You're not going to win this one.

And you sure as hell don't know what you're talking about any more than I do, so I'd suggest you take your own advice and pipe down.

NoseGoblin wrote:

asmith wrote:to ask a personal question which you can answer or not- is this why you had to quit making your original "titans".

That is correct, they filed under Trade Dress as the models did not infringe on copyright. If they would have had a copyright case, they would have filed it as they can seek damages for copyright. They cannot seek damages for Trade Dress.

The way my Attorney put it "this is what big companies use to shut down little companies, because it has to be argued in court and costs $$$$"

Kanluwen wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Yes, we've established that you "cannot trademark or copyright a geometric shape".

But I'd suggest that you look up "Trade Dress" and think about how it relates to this situation.

It doesn't.

Kan, you are now arguing with an actual IP lawyer over what is relevant. You're not going to win this one.

And you sure as hell don't know what you're talking about any more than I do, so I'd suggest you take your own advice and pipe down.

I SUGGEST EVERYONE PIPE DOWN OR THE BANHAMMER KOMT!
A reminder. Dakka Rule #1 applies here. Everyone will calm the down and be polite or I will pull the banhammer, along with 10 or so motions to dismiss, out of my butt and start swinging in an apparently random fashion. I kid you not.

lindsay40k wrote:And as an aside, I'm going to further say that Chapterhouse could have used a lot vaguer terminology to tread safer waters whilst losing hardly any trade from the kind of people who will find their website and recognise what they're selling, and agree with the point that GW really could do a lot more to support hobbyists who want to exchange money for shoulder pads with particular geometric shapes on them.

Polonius wrote:And, if my limited research and understanding of Janthkin's prior posts are correct, there is very little "on point" case law here.

Meaning, it's not just that nobody knows exactly how this case should go down. It's that there is actually some unanswered questions of law that could wildly swing this case.

How does "larger armies creating increased pressure on hobby time" make it "understandable that people are going to turn to AM products"? I'm not really seeing a correlation there. Navarro's point was that people do less converting and tend towards stock models with larger armies(which is a fair point).

Eldanar wrote:Just as an FYI, the Motion to Dismiss was terminated by the judge.

Also, GW has filed an amended complaint.

Polonius wrote:And, if my limited research and understanding of Janthkin's prior posts are correct, there is very little "on point" case law here.

Meaning, it's not just that nobody knows exactly how this case should go down. It's that there is actually some unanswered questions of law that could wildly swing this case.

Eldanar wrote:I was going to try to do a brief summary of it later. In general though, GW listed some of its registered items, stated that a lot of items were UK items and not required to be registered, and reiterated its claim that it owns the entire fantasy and futuristic settings along with all derivative works; and that CHS products were inferior, created confusion with customers, resulted in dillution of its brand, and that CHS illegally held itself out as somehow producing accepted products for GW. It also still maintains that CHS and Paulson had some sort of agreement or collusion on the Heavy Walker thingie.
(...)
CHS's motion was for either a dismissal or for a more definite statement on a cause of action by GW. GW submitted the amended complaint, identifying several trademarks and copyrights it holds (which IIRC it did not do in the first complaint), and has basically started to streamline its different arguments. It met the alternative motion made by CHS, and so the judge dropped the motion from consideration.

I'm still not sure the "we own this fictional universe and everything derived from it" argument has a lot of legal legs to stand on. But this has been GW's stated position from time in memorial, and is nothing new.

The dillution and obfuscation type claims might gain some traction though.

The really interesting thing coming up is there is a status conference scheduled to be held by the parties attorneys. I have no idea if this will discuss substantive issues or merely go over a timeline for when the judge wants things done. This really depends on this judge and his particular style.

weeble1000 wrote:The amended complaint isn't substantively different. There are a few paragraphs added, which I'll copy here. Otherwise it is by and large the same complaint. Eldanar has a pretty good handle on it.

This is what I expected to happen. GW would file some cursory amendment and Chapterhouse would renew its motion to dismiss. I think Chapterhouse will renew its motion to dismiss fairly soon. The fight to get Games Workshop to define its claims is ongoing in my opinion.

Here's paragraph 30 from the complaint. The copy/paste is awkward coming as it does from a .pdf.

30. Because many of the characteristics of the many armies used in Games
Workshop’s WARHAMMER and WARHAMMER 40,000 games, such as their language, culture, major worlds, weapons, methods of waging war, heraldry and iconography, and their appearances, behaviors and functions can be found in or derived from numerous Games Workshop books and other publications, as alleged above, only defendants know for certain which of these books and other publications they accessed and relied upon in creating the works at issue herein. However, by way of example, the following exemplify some of the ways in which Chapterhouse infringes Games Workshop’s copyrighted works:

a. Chapterhouse produces and sells a kit to convert a Games Workshop “Carnifex” into a “Tervigon” (both of which terms are original and proprietary to Games Workshop). Games Workshop’s Tyranid Codex describes the Tervigon and provides a representation of it, and Defendant’s conversion kit will create a Tervigon having unique expressions proprietary to Games Workshop, including having the same number of spine pieces and in the same configuration; the same number, type and configuration of limbs; and similar abdomen sacs; all of which are as depicted and described in Games Workshop’s Warhammer 40,000 Tyranids, Fourth Edition, January 2010. However, Chapterhouse may also have referred to and relied upon other Games Workshop publications, including the Tyranid Codexes for 1995, 2001 and 2004

b. Chapterhouse is producing shoulder pads for “Space Marines” that very clearly derive from many of the background works published by Games Workshop for its Space Marine Chapters. Games Workshop’s Space Marine units are classified by specific shapes and icons on their shoulder pads, the features of which are clearly and uniquely defined in Games Workshop’s background works, such as an arrow for the Tactical Squad, the use of Roman numerals, inverted “V” icons and other iconography and heraldry specific to
the Chapter and squad to which a soldier belongs.

c. Chapterhouse is selling shoulder pads for Space Marines featuring symbols and bearing other unique expressions taken from a number of Games Workshop’s Assault and Tactical Space Marine unit types. For example, many of the shoulder pads that Chapterhouse is selling bear not only the unique expressions described above as applying more generally to Games Workshop’s products but also have studs, arrow and cross arrow designs, inverted “V” and Roman numeral icons, as well as icons associated with a number of Games Workshop’s proprietary Chapters, including the Black Templars, Blood Ravens, Thousand Sons, Blood Eagles, Celestial Lions, Exorcists, Flesh Tearers,
Howling Griffons, Imperial Fists, Iron Snakes, Soul Drinkers and Salamander Chapters. Chapterhouse is also selling pads that convert standard Games Workshop Space Marines into characters for other Chapters, such as the Salamander and Fleshtearers Chapters, and which borrow unique expressions relevant to that Chapter which are proprietary to Games Workshop.

d. Chapterhouse’s conversion and armor kits reproduce all or substantial distinctive features of the vehicles and miniatures upon which they are based, as they are specifically configured to fit to Games Workshop’s products, including: (i) the surface decoration of defendant’s Salamander Drop Pod overlays, which is derived from and reproduces Games Workshop’s Salamander iconography; and (ii) defendant’s Rhino Tank Conversion Kits for Space Marine® Dragon or Salamander, the doors, front panels and armor sections of which, in Defendant’s own words, have been specifically designed to “…accessorize the current space marine® rhino model kit. Themed in a dragon or salamander style also good for alpha legion…”

Llew wrote:I can see where GW is arguing, but I think they're going to have a tough fight of it if roman numerals are part of their "unique iconography".

weeble1000 wrote:Llew, don't forget arrows. Arrows are very unique. And who puts markings or iconography on armor besides Games Workshop? And we shouldn't forget the genetically enhanced super soldiers wearing the armor.

Not only is Chapterhouse not going to allow Games Workshop to rest on these "defined" claims, but Games Workshop is moving in the right direction towards summary judgement if it persists in making claims like this.

I expected Games Workshop to do little more than give a nod towards defining its claims, but much of paragraph 30 is frankly surprising. I also like the arrogance of Games Workshop's statement that, "...only defendants know for certain which of these books and other publications they accessed and relied upon in creating the works at issue herein."

Games Workshop must specify what it is accusing Chapterhouse of doing wrong. You can't just accuse someone of causing you harm and then say that they have a better idea of how its happening than you do. If Games Workshop's copyrights were defined and defensible, it could explicitly state which work is infringed by which product.

The above statement demonstrates that even Games Workshop has little idea how the infringement is happening, or that it is unwilling to fulfill its duty of fair notice to the defendant. "Well, we have so many copyrights that the Tervigon conversion kit could be infringing any of them." Well pick one, pick a few of them, pick all of them; but you have to say what work is infringed and how.

It is not a defendant's responsibility to build the plaintiff's case, and it is not right for a plaintiff to make unspecific claims in order to unfairly widen the scope of discovery. Games Workshop is making the accusations and it must be able to state them clearly.

raincity wrote:I'm glad the motion to dismiss was terminated, I think it shows that gws's claim isn't as far fetched as some people claim it to be.
I still find it amazing people are still trying to say chs's work is original.

raincity wrote:I'm glad the motion to dismiss was terminated, I think it shows that gws's claim isn't as far fetched as some people claim it to be.
I still find it amazing people are still trying to say chs's work is original.

GW via Kroothawk wrote:
c. Chapterhouse is selling shoulder pads for Space Marines featuring symbols and bearing other unique expressions taken from a number of Games Workshop’s Assault and Tactical Space Marine unit types. For example, many of the shoulder pads that Chapterhouse is selling bear not only the unique expressions described above as applying more generally to Games Workshop’s products but also have studs, arrow and cross arrow designs, inverted “V” and Roman numeral icons, as well as icons associated with a number of Games Workshop’s proprietary Chapters, including the Black Templars, Blood Ravens, Thousand Sons, Blood Eagles, Celestial Lions, Exorcists, Flesh Tearers, Howling Griffons, Imperial Fists, Iron Snakes, Soul Drinkers and Salamander Chapters. Chapterhouse is also selling pads that convert standard Games Workshop Space Marines into characters for other Chapters, such as the Salamander and Fleshtearers Chapters, and which borrow unique expressions relevant to that Chapter which are proprietary to Games Workshop.

George Spiggott wrote:

GW via Kroothawk wrote:
c. Chapterhouse is selling shoulder pads for Space Marines featuring symbols and bearing other unique expressions taken from a number of Games Workshop’s Assault and Tactical Space Marine unit types. For example, many of the shoulder pads that Chapterhouse is selling bear not only the unique expressions described above as applying more generally to Games Workshop’s products but also have studs, arrow and cross arrow designs, inverted “V” and Roman numeral icons, as well as icons associated with a number of Games Workshop’s proprietary Chapters, including the Black Templars, Blood Ravens, Thousand Sons, Blood Eagles, Celestial Lions, Exorcists, Flesh Tearers, Howling Griffons, Imperial Fists, Iron Snakes, Soul Drinkers and Salamander Chapters. Chapterhouse is also selling pads that convert standard Games Workshop Space Marines into characters for other Chapters, such as the Salamander and Fleshtearers Chapters, and which borrow unique expressions relevant to that Chapter which are proprietary to Games Workshop.

I believe the word they are looking for here is chevron.

derek wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

GW via Kroothawk wrote:
c. Chapterhouse is selling shoulder pads for Space Marines featuring symbols and bearing other unique expressions taken from a number of Games Workshop’s Assault and Tactical Space Marine unit types. For example, many of the shoulder pads that Chapterhouse is selling bear not only the unique expressions described above as applying more generally to Games Workshop’s products but also have studs, arrow and cross arrow designs, inverted “V” and Roman numeral icons, as well as icons associated with a number of Games Workshop’s proprietary Chapters, including the Black Templars, Blood Ravens, Thousand Sons, Blood Eagles, Celestial Lions, Exorcists, Flesh Tearers, Howling Griffons, Imperial Fists, Iron Snakes, Soul Drinkers and Salamander Chapters. Chapterhouse is also selling pads that convert standard Games Workshop Space Marines into characters for other Chapters, such as the Salamander and Fleshtearers Chapters, and which borrow unique expressions relevant to that Chapter which are proprietary to Games Workshop.

I believe the word they are looking for here is chevron.

Using the actual term that has existed for hundreds of years would require them to admit that they didn't invent it.

Kroothawk wrote:Fun fact: CHS has the permission by Michael Moorcock to use the Chaos Star, GW doesn't

Kilkrazy wrote:Do you think it is in the interests of GW to draw out proceedings?

Ketara wrote:Amazing. Are they seriously trying to claim that shoulderpads with studs and arrows infringe their copyright? I could be wrong since its in legalese, but that's what it looks like.