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Yarrickshad wrote:I'd say most are competent tacticians, not brilliant and the fluff supports that argument.

Which fluff, exactly? That's what I am interested in - I've read a lot of people talking like that, but none have so far supported it with any actual studio sources. I'm quite willing to adapt my perception of the setting, but not based on mere interpretation - as that is something I can provide for myself. The vast majority of Imperial commanders is not selected due to displaying a certain aptitude for command - as is the case on the Gateway World of Cadia - but simply due to bloodline, brutality or charisma (depending on the world/society). There isn't even a formal "Guard University" where these people could go to learn. In the case of many Hive regiments, the Imperial Guard basically picks up a gang leader from the street, pins a couple rank bars on his shoulders and hands him a copy of the Tactica Imperialis with the task to read it whilst they're in warp transit. Here, a regiment whose commander is recruited from the nobility is probably even better off, for despite that upstart's likely arrogance and thirst for glory, he will probably have at least devoted a certain amount of time to study the art of war years before being handed command.

Also, no waste of life is considered "unnecessary" in service to the God-Emperor of Mankind. Green of the Last Chancers had to learn this the hard way, whilst Chenkov still leads his armies. That is telling.

I very much agree that Commissars and Schola-educated NCOs or staff officers would be quite helpful to any noble thrust into command of a regiment, but this does not truly mean that said commander is open for advice. In the end, as long as he wins his battles, no one will care if he lost 10 or 10.000 men in the process. Such is life in the 41st Millennium.

As I was re-reading the 2E IG Codex for this thread I also found that the distance of 10.000 lightyears (the averade deployment distance for newly recruited Guard regiments) can be traversed "within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft". Added to this, however, come assembly in staging areas and the occasional stop at other Imperial worlds to take on additional supplies and munitions. "By the time ships have been moved into position, munitions collected and troops assembled, the response time over this distance is in the order of between 30 and 120 days, typically about 75 days. This is the standard response time for raising of Imperial Guard armies, though for prolonged conflicts troops may be brought in from much further away. [...] If victory is not swift, the Departmento Munitorium will draw in regiments from beyond the normal 10 thousand light year range, including troops from worlds in the relatively peaceful Segmentae Solar and Pacificus."

So, yeah, warp travel in the setting as per GW doesn't take that long as some Black Library novels or other licensed products may suggest. A freshly raised regiment's shipboard training will be limited accordingly. That said, 75 days is probably sufficient time for basic training - especially given that most regiments will already sport a certain amount of experience from their time as PDF, depending on what equipment they used. Perhaps it would be more fitting to see IG basic training as some sort of "adjustment period". That said, the 5E 'dex also points out that actual fighting experience from regiments prior to being tithed is at a "modicum", and even this only applies to "many" and not all ... and includes formal training or even just instincts gained from the respective population's culture.
The same applies to their officers - three months to read up on and study the Tactica Imperialis isn't exactly a lot, though as pointed out above, most officers will have access to advice from individuals with more training or even actual combat experience. If they are willing to take it.

Here's also an in-character letter that came with the 3E Codex:

"Dear Sebastian,
Well, we're finally here. Zaro's World. From when I left the farm, it's been about three months, though it's hard to tell, what with travelling on a starship and everything. It took about two weeks to get the regiment mustered and then we had to wait another week after that for the Navy to arrive with the transports. That's when we all swore our oaths to the Almighty Emperor, to protect mankind and defeat our enemies. I don't know how many of us are in the regiment but it took two whole days to shuttle us up, with two hundred men to a shuttle, one every hour or so. Once we were on board, they split us up into training groups and gave out weapons and other kit. [...]"

@Lynata: Most BL novels concentrating on IG have relatively competent officers in charge, especially the protagonists). Tactics vary and are spread throughout the hierarchy, but it's not generally suggested that the IG is made up of useless buffoons.


Gaunts Ghost (First and Only): Even the ones that use the lives of their men careless actually tend to get the job done in the end, otherwise they wouldn't have been promoted at all.

IG Codex: The manner and character of officers is explored here, generally incompetent officers (this is the lower levels, from Major to Lt) can easily find their way into a position of command, but rarely last long. The enemy or the commissar see to that.

Gaunts Ghost (Necropolis): The IG tank commander displays a brilliant ability to co-oridnated his attacks which decimate the opposing armoured columns. A PDF armoured regiment elsewhere tasked with a similar option does manage to stop the enemy on their side as well, but only with a similar killl-death ratio.


Generally, new regiments suffer from what you've described (getting into command on merits other than ability) a fair bit, especially if their culture would encourage it. But combat experience swiftly changes this, one way or another.
There's not really much to go on from a Warmaster/General level of command, but in Gaunts Ghost Warmaster Slaydo was viewed as a stunning tactician, while his protege makes several crippling mistakes from the moment he takes the mantle (one such mistake resulting in the destruction of Tanith). The general of the 8th army though is viewed as competent enough, if struggling with a serious lack in resources.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Lynata: Most BL novels concentrating on IG have relatively competent officers in charge, especially the protagonists). Tactics vary and are spread throughout the hierarchy, but it's not generally suggested that the IG is made up of useless buffoons.

Ah, that's what I thought. Black Library's individual author interpretation and artistic license again. Thanks for that clarification.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But combat experience swiftly changes this, one way or another.

This is one point where I do agree. The IG is a "make or break" army - though there are no doubt instances where incompetent officers remain in charge simply because it is them who hide in command bunkers whereas more idealistic peers die charging with their troops, the irony being that the former will absorb the latter's regiments' survivors into their own murderous formation.

It was the current codex where it states that its the elite of the pdf. Which implies they should be fully trained. Imo i see it as being equivilent to the national guard. Their not full guardsmen, but can be deployed into combat with little additional trainings. Which page 10 of the codex agrees with stateing that many regiments already have some experience, including formal military training.

As for leaders the codex states that some are drawn from military acadimies, some are nobles, some are the biggest and the toughest in the regiment, and some are promoted from the ranks. And in the pcs entry states that incompetent officers are quickly punished.

@lynata since you seem to not take bl books as canon i have only used the codex to simplify the arguement.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Imo i see it as being equivilent to the national guard. Their not full guardsmen, but can be deployed into combat with little additional trainings. Which page 10 of the codex agrees with stateing that many regiments already have some experience, including formal military training.

I agree on this being the standard. The latter is actually something I mentioned above, though "many" of course does not mean "all". Take note that the 5E Codex points out that not every Imperial world has an official military, some being defended only by tribal clans or hive gangs. Sure, this is experience as well (and may actually be quite valuable depending on where a regiment recruited from such populations will fight), but "thug life" is still quite different from an orderly military campaign.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As for leaders the codex states that some are drawn from military acadimies, some are nobles, some are the biggest and the toughest in the regiment, and some are promoted from the ranks.

This can actually be condensed in only two options. Either you're a noble, in which case you may have went to your planet's PDF military academy or not, or you're part of a regiment that was drafted from an equal chances society such as some feral tribe or a hive gang where "might makes right" or Cadia where everyone starts out as a Whiteshield and can work his way up to the top.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:And in the pcs entry states that incompetent officers are quickly punished.

Well, people think Chenkov is incompetent, yet he still leads his armies. Whereas Green does not. That's what I'm saying: The Imperium has a different understanding of what is incompetent and what is not. Waste of life is acceptable as long as victory is achieved. Penal Battalions actually have a quota for how many men they should loose as a minimum. If you take that hill, better make sure you're getting enough of your own men killed, else the General might think you're slacking!

I will say that the size and scope of the Imperial Guard prohibits sweeping absolutes. The IG codex itself says that Guard come in all forms, shapes, and sizes.

Remember that this is a dystopian future where it is a powerful fascist theocratic state that is ponderous and uncaring. death is common. progress is not.

I personally have read the Forge world books and regarded them as being irritating (the guard almost always appear as totally outclassed by whatever they are facing and millions die apparently needlessly. The level of incompetency is staggering at times, but anyone who has a good knowledge of our history knows that we as a species are so very capable of that.

On the other hand are the far more liberal doses of sympathy, tactical acumen, intelligence, and so forth that show up in lets say... dan abnett's books. The very titular character is a guard commander who was promoted by merit, survives with an elite relatively small unit and not only cares for his men, but is tactically able to pull off miracles. They pretty much take on ANYTHING and win. People like that arise from time to time in history as well.

I personally think that the guard are capable of swerving either way but are usually not brilliant, facing foes that outclass them pretty seriously, and they have very few advantages to multiply their force. They are in the middle of these two extremes most of the time.

Battle can be seen as an equation.

Attrition(sheer manpower) x force multipliers (manuever, technology, morale, terrain, ect.) = damage inflicted

The Imperium does not have the ability to give the vast majority of its men much if any force multipliers. So the commanders do the ONLY THING that leads to victory and the very survival of some of their men, their planets, themselves, and the imperium itself... they increase their manpower to the point where it will overcome any force multipliers the enemy may have.
IT IS NOT a matter of callousness towards their men.
IT IS NOT irresponsible.
IT IS NOT a fail tactic.
A good analogy is the USSR vs Germany. Germany kicked the USSR hard but the USSR ground the invaders down under sheer manpower and resolve. The Germans had far better weapons, experience, equipment, supplies, air support, training, generals, and momentum on their side. Go look at the casualty figures on the eastern front during WW2. The Germans lost around 4.3 million men. The USSR lost over 10 million. That is just the dead, not casualties. Roughly double those figures for full casualties. In many ways the soviets merely ground Germany into a pulp and then almost single handedly took down Nazi Germany.

As one who studies military history and strategy, it becomes clear that from a purely unemotional standpoint that this is the manner in which the Imperium does most of its business with respect to the IG.

Does this make it anymore dystopian? Perhaps. But it is still hell to serve in the guard and you are not one in millions, but one in billions if not trillions. Then you are lined up against CSMs, Tyranid Monstrosities, the souless horror of the necrons, the witches of the eldar and so forth. Then factor in the fact that noone will care if you die except perhaps your squadmates. You will never go home. You are threatened by commissars daily, are expected not to run from a carnifex, obey your possibly slowed officers without question, and one day die for this system and for the way of life of trillions of people living in pseudo slavery if not authentic bondage and under the most depressing circumstances conceivable.
My verbose thoughts.

Lynata wrote:

Yarrickshad wrote:I'd say most are competent tacticians, not brilliant and the fluff supports that argument.

Which fluff, exactly? That's what I am interested in - I've read a lot of people talking like that, but none have so far supported it with any actual studio sources. I'm quite willing to adapt my perception of the setting, but not based on mere interpretation - as that is something I can provide for myself. The vast majority of Imperial commanders is not selected due to displaying a certain aptitude for command - as is the case on the Gateway World of Cadia - but simply due to bloodline, brutality or charisma (depending on the world/society). There isn't even a formal "Guard University" where these people could go to learn. In the case of many Hive regiments, the Imperial Guard basically picks up a gang leader from the street, pins a couple rank bars on his shoulders and hands him a copy of the Tactica Imperialis with the task to read it whilst they're in warp transit. Here, a regiment whose commander is recruited from the nobility is probably even better off, for despite that upstart's likely arrogance and thirst for glory, he will probably have at least devoted a certain amount of time to study the art of war years before being handed command.

Also, no waste of life is considered "unnecessary" in service to the God-Emperor of Mankind. Green of the Last Chancers had to learn this the hard way, whilst Chenkov still leads his armies. That is telling.

I very much agree that Commissars and Schola-educated NCOs or staff officers would be quite helpful to any noble thrust into command of a regiment, but this does not truly mean that said commander is open for advice. In the end, as long as he wins his battles, no one will care if he lost 10 or 10.000 men in the process. Such is life in the 41st Millennium.

As I was re-reading the 2E IG Codex for this thread I also found that the distance of 10.000 lightyears (the averade deployment distance for newly recruited Guard regiments) can be traversed "within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft". Added to this, however, come assembly in staging areas and the occasional stop at other Imperial worlds to take on additional supplies and munitions. "By the time ships have been moved into position, munitions collected and troops assembled, the response time over this distance is in the order of between 30 and 120 days, typically about 75 days. This is the standard response time for raising of Imperial Guard armies, though for prolonged conflicts troops may be brought in from much further away. [...] If victory is not swift, the Departmento Munitorium will draw in regiments from beyond the normal 10 thousand light year range, including troops from worlds in the relatively peaceful Segmentae Solar and Pacificus."

So, yeah, warp travel in the setting as per GW doesn't take that long as some Black Library novels or other licensed products may suggest. A freshly raised regiment's shipboard training will be limited accordingly. That said, 75 days is probably sufficient time for basic training - especially given that most regiments will already sport a certain amount of experience from their time as PDF, depending on what equipment they used. Perhaps it would be more fitting to see IG basic training as some sort of "adjustment period". That said, the 5E 'dex also points out that actual fighting experience from regiments prior to being tithed is at a "modicum", and even this only applies to "many" and not all ... and includes formal training or even just instincts gained from the respective population's culture.
The same applies to their officers - three months to read up on and study the Tactica Imperialis isn't exactly a lot, though as pointed out above, most officers will have access to advice from individuals with more training or even actual combat experience. If they are willing to take it.

Here's also an in-character letter that came with the 3E Codex:

"Dear Sebastian,
Well, we're finally here. Zaro's World. From when I left the farm, it's been about three months, though it's hard to tell, what with travelling on a starship and everything. It took about two weeks to get the regiment mustered and then we had to wait another week after that for the Navy to arrive with the transports. That's when we all swore our oaths to the Almighty Emperor, to protect mankind and defeat our enemies. I don't know how many of us are in the regiment but it took two whole days to shuttle us up, with two hundred men to a shuttle, one every hour or so. Once we were on board, they split us up into training groups and gave out weapons and other kit. [...]"

BL novels show most commanders as competent such as the Cain and Gaunt series and considered fluff, especially Gaunt since it has found its way into the codex and timeline.

Lord General Militants are selected for active command based on bloodline, experience and service. Men/Women of this rank are given additional training to help him/her acclimatise to their new role.

Generals are selected by the munitorum from regimental officers judged to be most competent.

Colonels would usually have served in their planets PDF before being recruited into the Guard and as such the men's loyalty is to their colonel, regimental officers are "advised" not to throw the lives of their men away with impunity, those who sacrifice their soldiers needlessly tend to end up in the Penal Legions. That is from Lexicanum, I'll try and find a more solid source later on. However it is worth noting that in Necropolis an high ranking officer was executed, his incompetence costing the lives of many men. And in Straight Silver where a platoon commander was nearly executed for recklessness which saw his entire platoon annihilated.

Barthol Van Voytz, Lord General of the 9th army group had quite a few things to say about Aexe Cardinals use of trench warfare.

*Slaydo (Ghosts)
*Macharius
*Solon
*Dravere (Ghosts)
*Creed
*Harazahn (Medusa V)
*Sturm (Ghosts)
*Voytz (Ghosts)
*Zyvan (Cain)
*Kasteen (Cain)
All notable competent commanders.

I can't argue with regards to warp travel but Guard training is exactly that, an adjustment period. Since most already have some experience or training the DM won't usually have to teach them much more other than what to expect when they reach their destination. Officers are briefed on expected enemy resistance, terrain and various other pieces of info and strategies. Soldiers will be given environmental, advanced weapons and equipment training.

@UrbanCowboy:
I have a particular dislike of the IA books (especially The Taros Campaign), I find that their information is wrong and contradictory.

Whilst your analogy is sound we also have to consider that the IG is a combined arms force, using many different regiments to counter any advantage an enemy might have and in some cases giving the Guard the upper hand. Infantry very rarely fight without armour, artillery and air support and it is these elements working together that is the true strength of the Imperial Guard, whilst large amounts of manpower is an advantage, it is in no way a war winner. We also have to remember that the USSR had a huge volume of man/woman power, reinforcement was immediate and, in the grand scheme of things, occurred in a small area. The Guard would most likely field the same amount of manpower the USSR had lost but deployed over an entire globe, perhaps across an entire system, without reinforcement for months or even years.

UrbanCowboy: Really, the two reasons Nazi Germany lost the east front were essentially:

1: The Nazis weren't prepared for the climate.
2: The Soviets were able to ramp up their production of weapons and tanks while the Nazis were proving they weren't prepared for dealing with the harsh winter climate.

The Soviets came back from a near-defeat due to these two reasons, with better tanks, better trained and equipped troops, and better tactics and pushed the Germans back to a final victory.

If you want to compare Guard to the Soviets, then PDF is the Soviets during their time spent trying to stall the German advance, and the Guard is the Soviets in their counter-assault which won the war.

Melissia wrote:UrbanCowboy: Really, the two reasons Nazi Germany lost the east front were essentially:

1: The Nazis weren't prepared for the climate.
2: The Soviets were able to ramp up their production of weapons and tanks while the Nazis were proving they weren't prepared for dealing with the harsh winter climate.

The Soviets came back from a near-defeat due to these two reasons, with better tanks, better trained and equipped troops, and better tactics and pushed the Germans back to a final victory.

If you want to compare Guard to the Soviets, then PDF is the Soviets during their time spent trying to stall the German advance, and the Guard is the Soviets in their counter-assault which won the war.

Who is comparing Soviets and Guard? They are nothing alike.
Ideals, lidership and some aspects yes, but generally no. Guardsman are PROFESSIONAL SOLDERS. Most Soviet solders in 1942 and 1943 were recruited and sent to the front immediately and they have live training ( like in that movie Stalingrad ), but those are the troops that push back Germans afterward because they were excellent solders for city fight.
And what Melissia already said: Soviet in 1941, 1942 and the beginning of 1943 would be equal to PDF, Soviets from late 1943, 1944 and 1945 would be equal to the Imperial Guardsman.

And the 2 main reason why Nazi Germany lost was:

1) They weren't prepared for winter at all. Their infantry wore light uniforms in a middle of December and their tanks were literary cracking because of the -50 Celsius.
2) On 1 German Tiger came 20 T-34. On 1 German solder came 5 Soviet, Soviets had more Airplanes and artillery. Now do the math...

Please don't devalue this thread with novice generalisations about the Eastern Fron of World War II... professional historians can't even agree on it, let alone we amateurs.

How do you know they aren't professional historians?

Brother Coa wrote:1) They weren't prepared for winter at all. Their infantry wore light uniforms in a middle of December and their tanks were literary cracking because of the -50 Celsius.
2) On 1 German Tiger came 20 T-34. On 1 German solder came 5 Soviet, Soviets had more Airplanes and artillery. Now do the math...

Oh you're saying you agree with me? Good, now get back on topic

If you think this here disagrees with what I said... you reaaaaly need to read it again closely. Then read what you posted. Then read what I posted, a third time.

Melissia wrote:Oh you're saying you agree with me? Good, now get back on topic

If you think this here disagrees with what I said... you reaaaaly need to read it again closely. Then read what you posted. Then read what I posted, a third time.

What

If I disagree with you I would told you that. I was merely taking your post and adding several more facts. Sorry for that


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:Please don't devalue this thread with novice generalisations about the Eastern Fron of World War II... professional historians can't even agree on it, let alone we amateurs.

Oh please... 5 year old kid would knew the outcome of the war if you showed him how many Germans were there and how many Soviets + British + Americans + Resistance movements etc...

Coolyo294 wrote:How do you know they aren't professional historians?

+1
haven't you read my book?

I don't, but I think I can safely assume that even if the two of them were professionals, those of us who'd feel the need to chip in (and tbh, I'd probably be among them) wouldn't be.

I mean what are the odds that all those subscribed to this thread are historians, eh?

Who other than historians would be arguing about irrelevant nonsense like this?

Nerds with too much time on their hands.

Coolyo294 wrote:Nerds with too much time on their hands.

And people who are so impressed with the universe that they want to know a little more...
Liek Star Warr, you watched first movie and it was so good that you wanted to know what will happened next? What was the Clone Wars? How can Jedi do all that? How was Darth Vader came to be? What will happened next?...
Same is for Warhammer 40000... we are all curious what our beloved universe has to offer us ( beside C.S. Goto and Matt Ward anyway... ).
And beside all that I still have the time for my normal life...well no life and kids yet, but I am anyway to young for that...

Coolyo294 wrote:Nerds with too much time on their hands.

Exactly, Historians.

Yarrickshad wrote:BL novels show most commanders as competent such as the Cain and Gaunt series and considered fluff, especially Gaunt since it has found its way into the codex and timeline.

And yet both Cain as well as Gaunt were Commissars who were raised in the Schola Progenium much like the Sisters Militant, having undergone advanced training and being prepared for life in the military throughout their entire childhood and youth. That is clearly not what you average IG officer freshly recruited out of a hive gang or a noble's palace is like.
As I mentioned before, Schola graduates are the ones who would make perfect advisors for the officer class, yet they rarely attain a command on their own. It happens (Gaunt, Yarrick), but is very much not the norm, much less at the beginning of a newly recruited regiment's history.

Aside from that, Black Library is a topic for itself... Sadly, Mitchell in particular understood little of how the Schola (or the Sororitas) actually work, so Cain is not exactly a prime example anyways.

Melissia wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Nerds with too much time on their hands.

Exactly, Historians.

So true. History is the ultimate nerd sport.

AustonT wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Nerds with too much time on their hands.

Exactly, Historians.

So true. History is the ultimate nerd sport.

At the risk of irony i think arguing is the ultimate nerd sport.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:Oh you're saying you agree with me? Good, now get back on topic

If you think this here disagrees with what I said... you reaaaaly need to read it again closely. Then read what you posted. Then read what I posted, a third time.

What

If I disagree with you I would told you that. I was merely taking your post and adding several more facts. Sorry for that


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:Please don't devalue this thread with novice generalisations about the Eastern Fron of World War II... professional historians can't even agree on it, let alone we amateurs.

Oh please... 5 year old kid would knew the outcome of the war if you showed him how many Germans were there and how many Soviets + British + Americans + Resistance movements etc...

Well, that's one reason why 5 year old kids are usualy not employed as generals. In 1941 it looked, for almost everyone involved, as if the german offensive would be ultimately sucessful.
The Soviet army's dismal performance in the Winter War as well as the earlier purges lead many to ( in some cases rightfuly ) underestimate them while the possibility of a german victory
at the eastern AND the western front ( where britain fought almost alone ) was very real.
Even the avaiable reserves of manpower between the invading axis powers ( ca 70 million inhabitants for germany, 9 for hungary and about 20 millions for romania ) and the soviet union ( ca 170 million inhabitants in 1939 ), while significant, were not quite as large as it is sometimes thought of, especialy if we consider the loss of huge swathes of populated land in the first six months of the war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AustonT wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Nerds with too much time on their hands.

Exactly, Historians.

So true. History is the ultimate nerd sport.

Actualy it isn't. It is hard work with rather underwhelming chances for something like a decent income or at least a job after years of studies...meh.

Lynata wrote:

Yarrickshad wrote:BL novels show most commanders as competent such as the Cain and Gaunt series and considered fluff, especially Gaunt since it has found its way into the codex and timeline.

And yet both Cain as well as Gaunt were Commissars who were raised in the Schola Progenium much like the Sisters Militant, having undergone advanced training and being prepared for life in the military throughout their entire childhood and youth. That is clearly not what you average IG officer freshly recruited out of a hive gang or a noble's palace is like.
As I mentioned before, Schola graduates are the ones who would make perfect advisors for the officer class, yet they rarely attain a command on their own. It happens (Gaunt, Yarrick), but is very much not the norm, much less at the beginning of a newly recruited regiment's history.

Aside from that, Black Library is a topic for itself... Sadly, Mitchell in particular understood little of how the Schola (or the Sororitas) actually work, so Cain is not exactly a prime example anyways.

That particular sentence was actually about the real commanders in those series, not Cain and Gaunt themselves.

Anyway I found that source.

"Though individual regiments are normally commanded by their own officers (usually drawn from the nobility of their world) this is not always practical when dozens of regiments are mustered. In such cases, a higher level of command is provided by the general staff of the Departmento Munitorum. This staff is generally formed from the best of the officers in the tithed regiments, recommended by their previous service (or family ties in some cases) and they receive additional training to prepare them for the greater role of commanding armies."
p10 Munitorum Manual

Officers punished for incompetence:

"As all Guardsmen will be aware, the prime duty of the commissar is to preserve the fighting spirit and loyalty the the regiment... If the regiments officers are incompetent or lack courage the commissar will remove them by the sternest measures" p16 Munitorum Manual

And the second paragraph of the Platoon Command Squad entry of the latest codex ends with "incompetent individuals are responsible for wasting countless lives and such ineptitude is quickly punished".

One advantage I believe the Guard has as a whole is adaptability, it doesn't do it quick but it is far better at altering to strategic, operational and tactical extremes than any other race, couple that with their ability to fight anywhere and have regiments that excel in any given environment or specialise at a type of warfare is a real plus for the Guard.

History is the ultimate nerd SPORT. we become so entertained by it we demand that someone oath artistic inclination build miniature recreations of our favorite historical figures and thier armies and devise rules in which to play out our fantasies. Arguing is just a hobby, its an occupation if you can convince people to pay you to have your arguments printed.

Yarrickshad wrote:That particular sentence was actually about the real commanders in those series, not Cain and Gaunt themselves.

Ah! Misunderstood you then. Apologies!

The Munitorum Manual is a Black Library book as well, by the way. Again, look at Chenkov, he easily qualifies for "wasting countless lives", yet his victories render him a competent officer. It's just that nobody would call him that based on our contemporary modern perspective. Yet we should not project modern real life values onto the world of 40k, as the setting is notably more dystopian and the value of a single human life is completely different to our own conscience and high ideals.

From the Codex:
"So high is the attrition rate amongst the Tundra Wolves that they have been refounded more than a dozen times in recent decades. Each time, Chenkov and the few remaining survivors of the regiment journey to lead the newly raised unfortunates. Although unimaginative, Chenkov's tactics are doubtlessly effective. [...] Chenkov used his troops to clear the explosives by marching them across the minefields. [...] Chenkov's ruthless command style continues to win the Imperium many victories and though the cost is high, the price of failure is intolerable."

For the Imperium, an incompetent officer is one who looses his battles. It does not matter at all how many troops have to die to achieve a given goal, as long as it is achieved. It's a question of values. Note the difference in the following quote from the same Codex:

"Attempts by Company Commanders to call down close-ranged artillery fire can result in disastrous casualties amongst the Imperial Guard. Whilst the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable."

Yarrickshad wrote:One advantage I believe the Guard has as a whole is adaptability, it doesn't do it quick but it is far better at altering to strategic, operational and tactical extremes than any other race, couple that with their ability to fight anywhere and have regiments that excel in any given environment or specialise at a type of warfare is a real plus for the Guard.

Absolutely. I found this passage of the 2E Codex rather fitting and inspiring as well:

"If an Imperial world is attacked, its first recourse is to defend itself. Interplanetary ships, orbital defence fortresses and ground troops are maintained by each planetary Lord for this purpose. If the attack is impossible to contain, a psychic distress signal will be sent into the warp requesting armed support and as much information about the enemy as possible. Because of the uncertain nature of warp space and psychic communication, a message may take moments, hours, days or years to reach other worlds. This time-lag is not entirely constant or predictable, and a world close to the source of a message will not necessarily receive it before a world that is more distant. Nonetheless, sooner or later, the message will be picked up by an Astropath somewhere.

The first foces able to respond to a distress signal are usually spacecraft of the nearest fleet. Imperial warships can drive away attacking craft or support friendly ground forces. If the distress signal reaches a nearby Space Marine Chapter fortress a force of Space Marines can be sent as quickly as naval vessels. All Space Marine Chapters have their own fleets consisting of some of the fastest ships in the Imperium. Often, a small force of Space Marines is enough to turn back an alien invasion, as long as there are some other human forces left to support them. However, the Space Marine Chapters are not large: an entire Chapter may be able to field only a thousand warriors or thereabouts.

Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or the Space Marines to defeat. In such a case, mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe. The ultimate fighting machine, its task is to hold a front line that stretches across the stars, to wage war for decades or centuries if need be, to act as the bastion of the Imperium against the massed hordes arrayed against mankind."

Meh, at Uni. it's always seemed to me as if History is the ultimate expression of Nerd-Hubris...

IG vets in the fluff salvage and integrate arms and armor off the battle field.

"That Power fist that Sergeant is wearing is painted in ultramarine blue strange. Wait that not a power fist it's power armor!!!"

So yes, it seems feasible to equip a small number of guardsmen with power armor (ah la storm troopers), but no, there aren't any published references to it happening.

Thanks for the reply,

Dan

Oh my, I can't believe I'm hearing this! Marines find it hard to get armour, and in the imperial truth shrouded eyes of a lowly guard, or other citizens, they are demi-gods. Most sets of PA that marines use are hard obtained and have passed through many Astartes hands. You would be lucky to get a shiny new set even if you wanted one. How can anybody even think of doing something like giving it to mortals! Even inquisitors find it hard to get their hands on PA! Even if it wasn't heretical, for a mortal, to use such a device. It would still be impossible for more than a few more powerful leaders to use it. Only legends like Yarrik or Creed could attain such a relic. There is a reason that not all inquisitors use PA.

Madness, utter madness I say!