Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.

When there is a better way they take it, but every good commander will sacrifice 1 billion lives to save 2 billion. Even if you save only one more than you lost I would consider it acceptable losses.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?

A billion people is a small price to pay for the Imperium.

Yeah, when every planet have few billion citizens, and Imperum have million of worlds...
I mean, just look at both Earth WW's - there were massive casualties there, why would Warhammer have less?
For them, billions of losses is nothing, it's something for us with only around 7 billion people.

In that kind of structure there can be no individual - only one whole, and that is the most grimdark to me at least.

Tell that to the Guardsmens' families.Or the family of any dead soldier.

"Madam, I am sorry for your loss. But the fact that Cadia still stand and also those 1000+ planets behind, with countless billions of people, is prove that your husband sacrifice was not in vain."

Deadshot wrote:Tell that to the Guardsmens' families.Or the family of any dead soldier.

So you would rather kill a planet then tell one man's family he died.

As far as the ethical question that seems to have emerged in the thread, I imagine the IG commanders handle casualties the same way our military does. Every commander at every level works to accomplish the mission while minimizing casualties at their level, from platoon to regiment to planetary governor.

As far as the power armored IG bit, the reason I'm asking the question, is because I'm planning on adding a power armored contingent to my Catachan forces. I'm planning on using the rules for the SoB, because they have the stats of elite guardsmen, the flamer heavy weapon selections, and power armor. Other than the acts of faith bit (I'll need to work around that), they should be pretty spot on. The conversions will be fun, but since GW SM models aren't true scale anyway, the base models should be about the right size. In apocalypse games I can even stick them in Valkyries, which would be the balls.

Thanks for the opinions,

Dan

As long as the rules fit I say go to town. I'd buy a tac squad and slap catachan heads on em and call it a day.

Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.

Sometimes there is, and when there is, the IG takes that route.

When you're fighting a Waagh ten-million-orcs strong? The Hive Fleet Cthulhu? Those options are denied you, and victory will be bought at the cost of a very high body-count. The only alternative in this scenario is defeat, which will lead to the loss of even more lives as the civilian population of the nearby systems is systematically butchered.

You're not understanding warfare like the Imperium understands warfare. When the Imperium goes to war, there are, basically, two outcomes. The first is a theatre of war much like we have going on in the world right now, on a much greater scale. One huge army (The Imperium) invades one place (rebel planet). The war ends a month later. The alternative is warfare on the scale of the first and second World Wars, turned up to 11, with millions of men fighting over very large swaths of territory, with possibly tens of thousands dying in a single day's battle.

In such wars, you try to save as many as you can, though that number will be pitifully small compared to the number you must sacrifice to ensure victory.

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:

purplefood wrote:SoB use it all the time and i'm pretty sure Creed outranks them.

Creed outranks Sisters like Creed outranks Astartes or Skitarii. They're outside of Creed's command structure-- the most that Creed can do to the three organizations is ask them to play along with his plans.

Sisters aren't a part of the Guard. Creed, like any other Imperial Guard officer, does not have the authority to order them around.

He might not have authority written down on a piece of paper but very few individuals will refuse to obey an order given by him...

And those few individuals are, you guessed it, Mechanicus, Sororitas, and Astartes.

Whom he has neither authority on paper nor authority in reality to order to do anything. He ASKS them to do it, and then they say in response "hey, you're a great strategist, so sure, I'll play along!"

Psienesis wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.

Sometimes there is, and when there is, the IG takes that route.

When you're fighting a Waagh ten-million-orcs strong? The Hive Fleet Cthulhu? Those options are denied you, and victory will be bought at the cost of a very high body-count. The only alternative in this scenario is defeat, which will lead to the loss of even more lives as the civilian population of the nearby systems is systematically butchered.

You're not understanding warfare like the Imperium understands warfare. When the Imperium goes to war, there are, basically, two outcomes. The first is a theatre of war much like we have going on in the world right now, on a much greater scale. One huge army (The Imperium) invades one place (rebel planet). The war ends a month later. The alternative is warfare on the scale of the first and second World Wars, turned up to 11, with millions of men fighting over very large swaths of territory, with possibly tens of thousands dying in a single day's battle.

In such wars, you try to save as many as you can, though that number will be pitifully small compared to the number you must sacrifice to ensure victory.

You trade ground for lives,and extract them when you can.You can't get to them,then you leave them to take the toll on the enemy,so they have not been sacrifised randomly.Then you Exterminatus the Planet.That is what Kryptman did.

Kryptmann didn't send guard units to the planet he exterminated. He contacted them through astropathic communications.

And Kryptmann's actions were highly controversial even amongst the Inquisition.

Brother Coa wrote:

seems more like slightly heavier carapace but is cool nonetheless; I have an idea for my next conversions now

Wait, I am confused. Are we taking one man's actions and saying that the entire imperial army acts exactly like that one man?

Happygrunt wrote:Wait, I am confused. Are we taking one man's actions and saying that the entire imperial army acts exactly like that one man?

Most of the Guard act like this. They are all trained to serve and protect, and most of them will die to protect Imperial citizens. Just look at Pius, he give his life to allow Emperor to kill Horus. Most Guardsman think of him as a saint and they are gladly making the same sacrifice on the battlefields of the 41'st millennium.

And of course entire Imperial Guard don't act like 1 man. It depends on the commander and homeworld.

Brother Coa wrote:And of course entire Imperial Guard don't act like 1 man.

Nope - but they all wish they were as cool as Ollanius.

Most of the Guard act like this. They are all trained to serve and protect, and most of them will die to protect Imperial citizens. Just look at Pius, he give his life to allow Emperor to kill Horus. Most Guardsman think of him as a saint and they are gladly making the same sacrifice on the battlefields of the 41'st millennium.

Well I can assure you my guardsmen don't act like this! They break and run with the best of them every game they're invovled in. I'm starting to get the impression that they adhere rather to the adage that you don't have to outrun the bear (tyranid), you just have to out run the guy next to you. Of course, they mask this under the more popular adage that discretion is the better part of valour.

But maybe that's just my gardsmen.

Very true.Sort of a King of the Hill thing there.First one to the top dies last.

@Deadshot - Imperial commanders are intelligent and do care about preserving the lives of the men they lead. For every leader like Chenkov, their are 10 more with imagination and a tactical mind-people like Al'Rahem and Creed (but obviously not as good as Creed). The problem is, often massive sacrifice is required to save a planet or system. Imperial Generals being incompetent is as untrue as Imperial Guardsmen themeselves being incompetent.

Pity history only remembers the bad guys.

TrollPie wrote:@Deadshot - Imperial commanders are intelligent and do care about preserving the lives of the men they lead. For every leader like Chenkov, their are 10 more with imagination and a tactical mind-people like Al'Rahem and Creed (but obviously not as good as Creed). The problem is, often massive sacrifice is required to save a planet or system. Imperial Generals being incompetent is as untrue as Imperial Guardsmen themeselves being incompetent.

Chenkov's approach might even be rational under some situations. Yes, most modern militaries try to minimize losses but the Imperial army isn't a modern military. Life is ultimately cheap in the Guard, after all you can always recruit more hivescum if you run out of men, and training varies.
What is requied of all guard commanders is victory. If Chenkov can provide the desired victory with his methods ( by actually making his human wave attacks work, perhaps trough extreme discipline, good support or just plain numbers ) then he does his job. If he just sends his men into the grinder without actualy achieving something meaningful ( life might be cheap, but equipment and the logistical effort to ferry an army from A to B aren't ) then a comissar will deal with him.

TrollPie wrote:Imperial commanders are intelligent and do care about preserving the lives of the men they lead. For every leader like Chenkov, their are 10 more with imagination and a tactical mind-people like Al'Rahem and Creed (but obviously not as good as Creed). The problem is, often massive sacrifice is required to save a planet or system. Imperial Generals being incompetent is as untrue as Imperial Guardsmen themeselves being incompetent.

I'm not sure if I could agree. Imperial commanders are drawn predominantly from the ranks of the nobility - which is a result of the way how IG regiments are raised, which is by taking some PDF as tithe and saying "good job guys, you're Guard now, go board this transport and fly to warzone XYZ". Exceptions such as the surprisingly equal society of Cadia aside, PDF formations would most likely be led by the resident nobility, just like how it worked here on our Earth in the last couple millennia. Leaders are selected not based on tactical genius but bloodline, and their very upbringing is most likely the cause of why they'd pay comparatively little value to human life, seeing it as a resource to be spent to achieve the Imperium's goals ... and a good deal of glory for themselves, their House and their planet. Grimdark.

The above is also the reason for why it makes little sense to raise regiments with power armour. If some noble truly has enough resources to outfit thousands of PDF with such high technology, the Munitorum would obviously prioritize this very formation when the next tithe is due.
"Thanks for giving us 5.000 men with power armour the worth of 25% of your military budget, Governor. I'm sure they will perform admirably in the war for Armageddon."

Yeah ... no.

Perhaps it could work for an IG-internal special projects formation, similar to the 10.000-men-Stormtrooper-Regiment who all get advanced equipment, or the Elysian Drop Troops who have their own fliers outside Naval hierarchy. Somewhat reaching, but not impossible.

Deadshot wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.

Sometimes there is, and when there is, the IG takes that route.

When you're fighting a Waagh ten-million-orcs strong? The Hive Fleet Cthulhu? Those options are denied you, and victory will be bought at the cost of a very high body-count. The only alternative in this scenario is defeat, which will lead to the loss of even more lives as the civilian population of the nearby systems is systematically butchered.

You're not understanding warfare like the Imperium understands warfare. When the Imperium goes to war, there are, basically, two outcomes. The first is a theatre of war much like we have going on in the world right now, on a much greater scale. One huge army (The Imperium) invades one place (rebel planet). The war ends a month later. The alternative is warfare on the scale of the first and second World Wars, turned up to 11, with millions of men fighting over very large swaths of territory, with possibly tens of thousands dying in a single day's battle.

In such wars, you try to save as many as you can, though that number will be pitifully small compared to the number you must sacrifice to ensure victory.

You trade ground for lives,and extract them when you can.You can't get to them,then you leave them to take the toll on the enemy,so they have not been sacrifised randomly.Then you Exterminatus the Planet.That is what Kryptman did.

I don't think you understand the guard, my friend.

The Imperial Guard are a highly trained, disciplined and professional military force who are equipped to a very high standard, equally Imperial commanders are well versed in the art of war. When an Imperial army invades or defends a world they will try and bring it to a swift conclusion with the use of drop regiments, aerial bombardment, blitzkrieg assaults and crippling storm trooper special operations. Usually this will be enough against most foes they will face, with a war ending within weeks. However when fighting an enemy that is tenacious, difficult to pin down or occupy strong defensive positions (Orks, Eldar or any race dug in) then the guard lose their momentum.

Even then the Guard loath to dig in, especially when they have other options open to them. At this point they will move to protracted manoeuvre warfare with mechanized and armoured units, with highly mobile drop troops taking vital positions, striking where the enemy is weak and storm troops continuing with ops to further destabilise and wrong foot the enemy. If the Navy have air superiority then airstrikes will attack supply convoys and artillery soften up occupied positions ready for occupation.

If they still can't break the back of the enemy or the enemy has a distinct advantage then, and only then, will the guard dig in but it is really seen as a last resort unless the army truly specialise in this field. This is when a war of attrition begins and the guard tries to bleed the enemy dry by dying slower than their foe. This type of warfare is almost inevitable against Tyranids and Orks.

It may shock some but the majority of Imperial commanders actually care a good degree about the lives of the men and women under their command, balancing between acceptable expenditure of manpower and the importance of the objective, human wave attacks are greatly frowned upon by any general worth his salt.

This is simple economics, although the Guard have almost unlimited manpower and resources, that manpower isn't all in one place and commanders have a finite amount of resources at his disposal without any reinforcement for years at a time, human wave attacks are a very quick way of getting all your men killed and losing a war.

Infantry will never fight without armour support or air cover from the Navy, each regiment working together to create a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, that is how the Guard win their wars.

The Imperial Guard is as highly trained as the Governor of the world the regiment was raised would allow. The few months of training aboard the troop ship that picked up the tithe are hardly worth bringing everyone up to speed. There is no "galactic IG boot camp" like the Schola Progenium, it all depends on how the troops were formed and trained on their homeworld. Which is why the various Regiments often sport vast differences in tactics.

Where does the idea of the officers' supposed care come from, anyways? Nobody in the command hierarchy of the Imperium gives a grox's gak on wave tactics as long as the Commander in question achieves the mission objective. It's why Chenkov is still in command. Because he is successful.

Imperial officers get into trouble as soon as they start failing to achieve their assigned goals. At this point it is also completely unimportant on whether said officer has thrown too many or too few troops into the grinder - either will be held against him and seen as the cause of his failure.

Personally, I just don't see why some noble scion whose command basically fell into his lap should feel any kind of connection to his troops. Your average commander didn't feel it in medieval Europe or during the Napoleonic Wars, so why should this have changed in 40k where a human life is worth even less?

Wasn't Napoleon practically loved by his troops?

Yarrickshad wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Yjere is honour,but not intelligence.Surely there are other ways to win than throwing away billions of lives?I prefer the SM method,were each man lost is a grevious blow.

Sometimes there is, and when there is, the IG takes that route.

When you're fighting a Waagh ten-million-orcs strong? The Hive Fleet Cthulhu? Those options are denied you, and victory will be bought at the cost of a very high body-count. The only alternative in this scenario is defeat, which will lead to the loss of even more lives as the civilian population of the nearby systems is systematically butchered.

You're not understanding warfare like the Imperium understands warfare. When the Imperium goes to war, there are, basically, two outcomes. The first is a theatre of war much like we have going on in the world right now, on a much greater scale. One huge army (The Imperium) invades one place (rebel planet). The war ends a month later. The alternative is warfare on the scale of the first and second World Wars, turned up to 11, with millions of men fighting over very large swaths of territory, with possibly tens of thousands dying in a single day's battle.

In such wars, you try to save as many as you can, though that number will be pitifully small compared to the number you must sacrifice to ensure victory.

You trade ground for lives,and extract them when you can.You can't get to them,then you leave them to take the toll on the enemy,so they have not been sacrifised randomly.Then you Exterminatus the Planet.That is what Kryptman did.

I don't think you understand the guard, my friend.

The Imperial Guard are a highly trained, disciplined and professional military force who are equipped to a very high standard, equally Imperial commanders are well versed in the art of war. When an Imperial army invades or defends a world they will try and bring it to a swift conclusion with the use of drop regiments, aerial bombardment, blitzkrieg assaults and crippling storm trooper special operations. Usually this will be enough against most foes they will face, with a war ending within weeks. However when fighting an enemy that is tenacious, difficult to pin down or occupy strong defensive positions (Orks, Eldar or any race dug in) then the guard lose their momentum.

Even then the Guard loath to dig in, especially when they have other options open to them. At this point they will move to protracted manoeuvre warfare with mechanized and armoured units, with highly mobile drop troops taking vital positions, striking where the enemy is weak and storm troops continuing with ops to further destabilise and wrong foot the enemy. If the Navy have air superiority then airstrikes will attack supply convoys and artillery soften up occupied positions ready for occupation.

If they still can't break the back of the enemy or the enemy has a distinct advantage then, and only then, will the guard dig in but it is really seen as a last resort unless the army truly specialise in this field. This is when a war of attrition begins and the guard tries to bleed the enemy dry by dying slower than their foe. This type of warfare is almost inevitable against Tyranids and Orks.

It may shock some but the majority of Imperial commanders actually care a good degree about the lives of the men and women under their command, balancing between acceptable expenditure of manpower and the importance of the objective, human wave attacks are greatly frowned upon by any general worth his salt.

This is simple economics, although the Guard have almost unlimited manpower and resources, that manpower isn't all in one place and commanders have a finite amount of resources at his disposal without any reinforcement for years at a time, human wave attacks are a very quick way of getting all your men killed and losing a war.

Infantry will never fight without armour support or air cover from the Navy, each regiment working together to create a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, that is how the Guard win their wars.

For some reason, I've heard this before. Something about IG recruitment where the best and brightest are carried away to fight as guardsmen and the rest act as PDFs. Like, your average guardsmen are actually really good soldiers equivalent of modern marines or something as opposed to GI's in the army.

Retribution wrote:Wasn't Napoleon practically loved by his troops?

Aye, he was very charismatic! He also rose through the ranks in a more "honest" manner in that he started out small as a Lieutenant and gradually worked his way up. In most militaries of various European nations, it was not uncommon to simply "buy" oneself a commission and even a command if you had the money. At least that's what I read about the British Army at that time.

I'm quite sure the Imperial Guard has several "Napoleons" in its ranks - but I'm just as certain that the majority consists of careless nobles who only think of their own reputation. It's just the kind of mindset that feudalism breeds - especially if you look how far 40k takes it (slavery etc).

That artwork is just plain awesome.

Lynata wrote:The Imperial Guard is as highly trained as the Governor of the world the regiment was raised would allow. The few months of training aboard the troop ship that picked up the tithe are hardly worth bringing everyone up to speed. There is no "galactic IG boot camp" like the Schola Progenium, it all depends on how the troops were formed and trained on their homeworld. Which is why the various Regiments often sport vast differences in tactics.

Where does the idea of the officers' supposed care come from, anyways? Nobody in the command hierarchy of the Imperium gives a grox's gak on wave tactics as long as the Commander in question achieves the mission objective. It's why Chenkov is still in command. Because he is successful.

Imperial officers get into trouble as soon as they start failing to achieve their assigned goals. At this point it is also completely unimportant on whether said officer has thrown too many or too few troops into the grinder - either will be held against him and seen as the cause of his failure.

Personally, I just don't see why some noble scion whose command basically fell into his lap should feel any kind of connection to his troops. Your average commander didn't feel it in medieval Europe or during the Napoleonic Wars, so why should this have changed in 40k where a human life is worth even less?

Imperial Guard are recruited from the top 10% of any planets PDF, if the soldiers aren't of sufficient quality the governors life is forfeit. It is good for the governors health to have a proficient military force under his/her command, especially when his/her army must hold their own until reinforced by the Guard. Hive and industrial worlds where corporation and gang warfare is rampant are prime recruiting grounds, breeding vicious killers already well versed in combat. They are already good fighters before recruitment and their abilities are further honed by the guard on route to a warzone.

To put it into perspective, if the Imperium came here they will be taking all of earths special forces first (delta force, SEALS, SAS, Spetsnaz you name it) and work their way down until we meet our quota.

I believe my definition of "care" may be confusing. When I say care I don't mean they shed a tear for every life lost under his/her command or tuck the men into bed with a cup of hot chocolate , obviously they don't, I'm sure they would care about such things as morale and equipment etc as this affects his soldiers' performance. However as I said using your men intelligently is what they truly care about because they only have a finite amount of manpower at their disposal. You can't complete your objective if all your men are dead. Chenkov is a rather rare sort of commander, he is successful because he has a colossal amount of manpower under his command, a luxury very few officers of his rank have, over 120,000 men compared to your average 4 to 10,000.

Because any man/woman worth the title of general knows it's a bad idea to waste the lives of your men for very little gain, it's been like that throughout history, why should it be any different in 40k?

Lynata wrote:

Retribution wrote:Wasn't Napoleon practically loved by his troops?

Aye, he was very charismatic! He also rose through the ranks in a more "honest" manner in that he started out small as a Lieutenant and gradually worked his way up. In most militaries of various European nations, it was not uncommon to simply "buy" oneself a commission and even a command if you had the money. At least that's what I read about the British Army at that time.

Buying a commission wasn't just uncommon, it was basically required (short of being given a field commission which was very rare). And Napoleon and Wellesley were certainly characters, Napoleon was adored by his troops.

I'm quite sure the Imperial Guard has several "Napoleons" in its ranks - but I'm just as certain that the majority consists of careless nobles who only think of their own reputation. It's just the kind of mindset that feudalism breeds - especially if you look how far 40k takes it (slavery etc).

Are reffering to servitors here? I wouldn't call them slaves.

I think comparing imperial guard to napoleon or "medieval commanders" (what does that even mean? mercenary captains, lords,k nights, Kings? Europe or Middle east? what time period? Italian towns? slavic tribes?) I thought it was pretty clear that most imperial guard fluff is based off of early 20th century russia. So why don't we go there?
specifically WW2

-High level generals were very skilled
-a mix of unbelievably brave men and abject cowards
-very little individual initiative (whole company ordered into a river when none could swim despite a bridge built for just that purpose)
-language barriar between eastern Europe and Asian russians
-horrible middle level leadership because of Stalin's purges
-General disregard for human life, viewed as just another resource (one general ran his men through a minefield he knew was there and when asked said he counted the men lost as if they had been shot or hit with artillery, they were all lost to enemy devices, the means was not important.)
-A varied amount of weapon technology and distribution due to previous war failure to prepar. (This one might not be as useful for warhammer)
-vast amount of resources, though poorly utilized

I would like to thank hardcore history for this lesson and if you guys are interested you should look it up, a great 6 hour lecture series