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And as soon as you pick one of your special weapons, you never get the bonus attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:OK. Group 1 is wrong. You can have many weapons on the model, and you can use 2 one handed or 1 2 handed weapon each assault phase, as you choose. Everything else works out the same.

There's a rule allowing you to pick what weapons you want to use? What page number is that on?
edit: Also - can you point me out to the rules that allow models with 3 weapons to participate in combat?

Quite explicitly -- Page 42, bottomr right hand side.

"Some models are equipped with two one-handed weapons..........with the rules given below for different combinations."

"If a model is using a two-handed weapon.......it may not use it [the weapon] in combination with another weapon."

It then goes on to say that a normal and a special combat weapon may be used, which leads to +1 A.

So, if the relic blades is two handed, then you may use the pistol and powerweapon in combinations, yielding +1 A, or the relic blade by itself.

If the relic blade is a one-handed weapon that cannot benefit from a secodn weapon to get a second attack, then you may use the pistol and powerweapon in combo as above, OR you may use the relic blade in combo with either, but for not added benefit.

IN either case, you have a choice betwee + 1A or +2 str. You people have really been arguing about nothing.

Or, and this is the point you insist you are right on but arent, the very act of choosing means you NEVER gain the bonus attack.

Also, notice how "some models are equipped with two one handed...." is there?

Please show a quote allowing a model with 3 to attack. We'll wait.

Specific allowances, or rules detailing how to handle 2 equipped weapons; does not mean that you can only use 2 weapons.

In fact if you read all of the entries they are for Equipped with those combinations of 2 and you will only ever be using 1 of the weapons(doesn't matter at all which for any pairs of like weapons, 2 normal, or 2 of the same special).

Look again at the normal and Special; you are equipped with a normal and a special, you must use the Special, and you might gain a bonus attack depending on what the Special is, ad if you have a third weapon that is a second copy of the special(which is the same as 2 of the same special anyways).

As the only rule that ever allows you to make a choice in which weapon you attack with is the 2 different, and all possible combinations are based on what the model is equipped with, and as I already said going through all the different possible combinations on your model will enevitiably lead to the most specific rule: if a relic Blade is 1 handed, you never gain a bonus attack with the PW, or the Relic Blade(the pistol simply does not matter); if the relic blade is 2-handed, then you do have a choice granted for using 2-handed weapons instead of the default 1-handed, and the PW and Pistol comes into play to grant a bonus attack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or, and this is the point you insist you are right on but arent, the very act of choosing means you NEVER gain the bonus attack.

There is absolutely NO reason to think that. You're just making rules up out of thin air, and then you're asking me to justify myself?

Nm, I just realized, Sir_Prometheus, was quoting Nos (without the quote box).

Sir_Prometheus wrote:There is absolutely NO reason to think that. You're just making rules up out of thin air, and then you're asking me to justify myself?

Also, notice how "some models are equipped with two one handed...." is there?

Please show a quote allowing a model with 3 to attack. We'll wait.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
now lets go back to your earlier half quote on the basic Fighting with 2 single handed weapons rules:
"Some models are equipped with two one-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for different possible combinations."

Leaving out that they can use the equipped weapons or that the Combinations are those possible changes quite a bit of the rule. If a model is equipped with more than 2 weapons it still has to abide by the rules for all the different possible combinations of equipped weapons; once you have figured out which combinations of weapons the model has equipped you then need to figure out which rules to use; this is not a choice of use; it is the rule that exist for the model in question. Since these rules are contadictory we must then determine which of the rules is most specific.

Since the Normal and Special rules state that "all attacks are made with the Special weapon's bonuses and penalties" that means it will always use the Special weapon(and only the special weapon); but in a case where you are equipped with 2 different specials and a normal you have 2 sets of a special and a Normal(one with each special), the rules tell you all attacks are made with the Special; but which special? For a choice in which special you must go to the 2 different Specials rule, it grants a choice and specifies that you never gain a bonus attack.

The underlined has no basis in the actual rules. all the rules are as specific as each other because it depends on what two weapons that are equipped and they are using, or Fighting with, as per the title of the section.

To claim that the section detailing how to fight with two single-handed weapons means only to use one weapon is contradictory to the whole fighting with two single handed weapons section.

The section details how to fight with two single-handed weapons. It details what weapons a model can use in close combat. it even mentions "If a model is using a two handed weapon... it may not use it together with another weapon"

This establishes a few things.

If you have a two handed weapon and a one handed weapon, you can choose one to use. It also established we need to be using the combination of weapons to fight with. If we are fighting with a weapon, we are using these two weapons.

"all attacks are made with the Special weapon's bonuses and penalties" Says you use the bonuses and penalties of the special weapon. when using a normal weapon in your off hand you gain a bonus attack, so you have to use them both to gain the attack.

Nothing in any of the combinations says or even eludes to only using one of the two weapons, and not using the other one.

The only one that even remotely says you use only one weapon goes on to say they never get the bonus attack for using two different special weapons. that established that you have to be using two different special weapons to fight with, so you are in fact using both, but you have to pick one to apply the bonuses and penalties to that round of attacks.

The "but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons." language is explicitly clear in that they are in fact using two different special weapons.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:OK. Group 1 is wrong. You can have many weapons on the model, and you can use 2 one handed or 1 2 handed weapon each assault phase, as you choose. Everything else works out the same.

There's a rule allowing you to pick what weapons you want to use? What page number is that on?
edit: Also - can you point me out to the rules that allow models with 3 weapons to participate in combat?

Quite explicitly -- Page 42, bottomr right hand side.

"Some models are equipped with two one-handed weapons..........with the rules given below for different combinations."

"If a model is using a two-handed weapon.......it may not use it [the weapon] in combination with another weapon."

It then goes on to say that a normal and a special combat weapon may be used, which leads to +1 A.

So, if the relic blades is two handed, then you may use the pistol and powerweapon in combinations, yielding +1 A, or the relic blade by itself.

If the relic blade is a one-handed weapon that cannot benefit from a secodn weapon to get a second attack, then you may use the pistol and powerweapon in combo as above, OR you may use the relic blade in combo with either, but for not added benefit.

IN either case, you have a choice betwee + 1A or +2 str. You people have really been arguing about nothing.

Can you cite the rules that let you choose among 3 weapons? We've been looking for them for 8 pages in multiple threads.

Oh, they don't exist? Okay, that's what I thought - you're relegated to making up rules. Which is fine - because that's the only way it's playable.

I'm not sure. I know that a BA Glaive Encarmine is a 2 handed weapon, but I don't know the rules for a Relic Blade.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:I'm not sure. I know that a BA Glaive Encarmine is a 2 handed weapon, but I don't know the rules for a Relic Blade.

Read my OP, I quote the SM codex Page 99 that will tell you what it says in the codex.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:There is absolutely NO reason to think that. You're just making rules up out of thin air, and then you're asking me to justify myself?

Also, notice how "some models are equipped with two one handed...." is there?

Please show a quote allowing a model with 3 to attack. We'll wait.

So.....your theory is.....because the main rule book only mentions models equipped with 2 weapons, models equipped with more don't exist? Or maybe that the act of giving a model more than 2 weapons somehow causes it to collapse into a singularity, the wargaming equivalent of diving by zero?

Or that you can have such a model, but it is simply unable to attack, futility trying to swing 3 weapons with 2 hands, and unwilling to put one back in the sheath?

I'm inclined to think you're just being facetious, that a person could not actually think the fact the book mentions two weapons has an effect in a game where characters can clearly have more.

You also, sir, are just constructing rules out of nonsense.

Why don't you try reading the rules for the combinations of 2 weapons?

They each tell you 2 things.

1) whether or not a bonus attack is gained.

2) Which single weapon is used.

For the "No reason to think that" in regards to the 2 different special weapons; yeah, there is 1 really good reason to think that: the plain black and white text that says exactly that.

Allow me to quote them once more(for the 100th time in this thread); BRB page 42, Fighting with 2 single-handed weapons, 2 different Special weapons: "When it is there turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons."

I would say that "NEVER" in there is pretty clear indication that the 1 rule that allows a choice in single handed weapons used, also spicifes that they never gain the bonus attack.

now lets go back to your earlier half quote on the basic Fighting with 2 single handed weapons rules:
"Some models are equipped with two one-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for different possible combinations."

Leaving out that they can use the equipped weapons or that the Combinations are those possible changes quite a bit of the rule. If a model is equipped with more than 2 weapons it still has to abide by the rules for all the different possible combinations of equipped weapons; once you have figured out which combinations of weapons the model has equipped you then need to figure out which rules to use; this is not a choice of use; it is the rule that exist for the model in question. Since these rules are contadictory we must then determine which of the rules is most specific.

Since the Normal and Special rules state that "all attacks are made with the Special weapon's bonuses and penalties" that means it will always use the Special weapon(and only the special weapon); but in a case where you are equipped with 2 different specials and a normal you have 2 sets of a special and a Normal(one with each special), the rules tell you all attacks are made with the Special; but which special? For a choice in which special you must go to the 2 different Specials rule, it grants a choice and specifies that you never gain a bonus attack.

You're going to great lengths to misread the plain English in order misconstruct a set of rules that is unplayable. If you just read what was plainly there, and used common sense everything would be fine.

As has been point out, GW does NOT use a key-word based system. The highly technical interpretation you want to use in order to make the rules gibberish simply doesn't apply.

It's also very convoluted and silly. Please stop.

I never said anything about a keyword system.

There is no rules for 3 weapons; so either you need to determine what weapon you attack with from the possible combinations of 2; or a model with 3 weapons never uses any of them(even if it is just 2 normals and a special).

Please; enlighten me of the plain English, because the text reads as I state: the model uses 2 weapons it is equipped with with the rules in the combinations; each rule only ever uses 1 weapon; and the only rule that ever allows a choice in weapon used also specifies that it never gains a bonus attack.

You have continuously made claims that the idea I laid out is unintelligible, and convoluted; yet you have also claimed that the 2 different Special weapon rule does not state that the model making the choice of weapon to use never gains a bonus attack.

If you cannot find the other half of a sentence allowing a choice of weapon, it is no wonder you find looking a rule specificity to be "convoluted", "unintelligible", and "unplayable"

You must find relentless to be Convoluted as well, since the basic rules state that models cannot move and fire heavy weapons, but Relentless says you can; right?

How about Invulnerable saves?

Or any of the other more specific rules that take precedent over the basic rules.

Please stop.

Now DR: the title of the section is fighting with 2 single-handed weapons; that really means very little to the basic rules that the models are equipped with the weapons they intend to use with the different combinations.

And yes the different Combinations are each more specific then the last, but I have already pointed that out and detailed how they are each more specific then the last 2 pages ago.

Normal and a Special does not ever say you are fighting with(using) both weapons, the entire section is based on what weapons the model is equipped with.

Please cite the text that says you are using both the normal and the special and that the normal is being used to gain the bonus.

Normal and normal only tells us to gain the bonus attack; there is nothing about using either weapon.

Two of the same special states that all of the attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special Weapon's(note the singular-possessive usage here; plural possessive would be Weapons') bonuses and and penalties.

A normal and a special is very specific, in that the Special weapon ifs the only one used(you never ever use the normal weapon), and is dependent on what special weapon is being used as to whether they get the onus attack or not.

2 different Specials also specify that only 1 weapon is used(and once again that the model never gains the bonus attack).

All 4 only use 1 weapon(or none in the case of 2N); therefore models never use 2 weapons.

Again you cannot use 2 weapons to then have to choose to use 1(and 2 different also specifies you only use 1 weapon, not 1 weapon's bonuses and penalties; nor 1 weapons effects; you are totally only using 1 weapon); as you are then once more not using 2 weapons.

The rules are based on equipped.

Kommissar Kel wrote:<Snip>Please; enlighten me of the plain English, because the text reads as I state: the model uses 2 weapons it is equipped with with the rules in the combinations; each rule only ever uses 1 weapon; and the only rule that ever allows a choice in weapon used also specifies that it never gains a bonus attack.

This is incorrect, the text states that they are equipped with two weapons they can use...

Kommissar Kel wrote:Now DR: the title of the section is fighting with 2 single-handed weapons; that really means very little to the basic rules that the models are equipped with the weapons they intend to use with the different combinations.

And yes the different Combinations are each more specific then the last, but I have already pointed that out and detailed how they are each more specific then the last 2 pages ago.

They are each more specific than the last by your reading, by my reading they are as specific as all the others, since they detail how to use two weapons.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Normal and a Special does not ever say you are fighting with(using) both weapons, the entire section is based on what weapons the model is equipped with.

Actually it says you are using two different special weapons, thus the line that says "never get the bonus attack for using two weapons" so if you are not using them why include that line of text?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Please cite the text that says you are using both the normal and the special and that the normal is being used to gain the bonus.

Fighting with two single-handed weapons. Page 42 this tells us we are fighting with two single-handed weapons, AKA USING two single-handed weapons.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Two of the same special states that all of the attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special Weapon's(note the singular-possessive usage here; plural possessive would be Weapons') bonuses and and penalties.

Also not how it says "never get the bonus attack for using two weapons" so that tells us we are Using/Wielding two SCCW's and we must pick one to use the bonuses from.

Kommissar Kel wrote:A normal and a special is very specific, in that the Special weapon ifs the only one used(you never ever use the normal weapon), and is dependent on what special weapon is being used as to whether they get the onus attack or not.

This has no backing of the actual rules. The section titled "Fighting with two single-handed weapons" tells us that we are, in fact, using two weapons we are equipped with.

Kommissar Kel wrote:2 different Specials also specify that only 1 weapon is used(and once again that the model never gains the bonus attack).

only one weapons bonuses and penalties are used, this is backed by the "never get the bonus attack for using two weapons" this tells us we are using two weapons, but do not gain the bonus attack for having a second CCW.

Kommissar Kel wrote:All 4 only use 1 weapon(or none in the case of 2N); therefore models never use 2 weapons.

Utterly untrue. The rules for one weapon are detailed on P.37, the rules for using 2 weapons are detailed on P.42.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Again you cannot use 2 weapons to then have to choose to use 1(and 2 different also specifies you only use 1 weapon, not 1 weapon's bonuses and penalties; nor 1 weapons effects; you are totally only using 1 weapon); as you are then once more not using 2 weapons.
The rules are based on equipped.

See above about using two ccw's

The rules are base on equipped and using, this is the concept you are not understanding.

"equipped with that they can use"

Notice how it says they have to be equipped with weapons they can USE in CC. This tells us they are using/fighting with two single-handed weapons

You are making up rules deathreaper.

Not at all, the section details how to Fight with two single-handed weapons.

In the english language this means you are using two single-handed weapons to attack with.

they say equipped with that they can use, that tells us they are using two single-handed weapons in CC

DeathReaper wrote:Not at all, the section details how to Fight with two single-handed weapons.

In the english language this means you are using two single-handed weapons to attack with.

they say equipped with that they can use, that tells us they are using two single-handed weapons in CC

nope. It never says that and never gives you the ability to choose two before applying results. You are making up rules which are implied.

2 weapons is a subset of 3+ weapons and works fine. You may only choose you have 2sccw. Choosing two weapons then applying a different result is made up and has no basis in the rules.

It boils down to this, The model needs to be able to choose the combination they are going to use, otherwise the rules DO NOT WORK and the game breaks.

Yakface has it almost spot on.

Thank you for the discussion.

Yakface wrote:The rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons on page 42 of the rulebook *ONLY* work if you assume that they refer to the combinations that the model is able to choose to utilize in that phase.

Why do I say that?

Because the list of combinations on page 42 of the rulebook is not exhaustive. For example, Marneus Calgar actually has THREE special weapons (two powerfists and a power weapon). Eldrad has two special weapons and one normal close combat weapon.

If you want to try to claim that these rules dictate how the model is forced to make his attacks, then the entire system breaks down because there are no rules for models with 3 special weapons or models with two special weapons and one normal weapon.

The only way the rules function as written is if you assume that the player controlling the model gets to choose which two weapons his model is going to use and then consult the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons to see how those weapons work together.

So ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine. As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

So you must be able to make up rules in order for the game not to break? Because the rules do NOT allow you to choose.
I have repeatedly asked you for the EXACT allowance to choose, and you have NEVER found it. You have repeated the same inane line that does NOT provide permission, EVEN implicit permission

You are required to make up rules in order to let the game funciton with 3+ CCW guys, so why are you making up rules SPECIFICALLY that allows an additional attack that the rules strongly hint should NEVER be gained?

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you must be able to make up rules in order for the game not to break? Because the rules do NOT allow you to choose.
I have repeatedly asked you for the EXACT allowance to choose, and you have NEVER found it. You have repeated the same inane line that does NOT provide permission, EVEN implicit permission

You are required to make up rules in order to let the game funciton with 3+ CCW guys, so why are you making up rules SPECIFICALLY that allows an additional attack that the rules strongly hint should NEVER be gained?

1) I have shown where you are allowed to choose. its called P.42 and Fighting with 2 CCW's. This details how you can only ever Fight with 2 CCW's, so if we have 3, we must pick 2 to fight with before we move on, it is simple logic that brings us to this step.

2) The "an additional attack that the rules strongly hint should NEVER be gained" is only for models fighting with two SCCW's please do not pretend that this section does not detail how to Fight/Use/Wield 2 CCW's.

Lets go with the majority of voters in this thread for just a second here and ask one question:

An honor guard model, that has purchased a relic blade now has a Relic Blade(2 Handed CCW), Bolt Pistol(1 Handed CCW), and Power weapon(1 Handed CCW).

How do we determine what weapon(s) a honor guard model, that has purchased a relic blade, fights with?

If you are planning on getting a SS, you can never claim an extra attack for two CCWs
Also, how is that model legal?

Relic blade is not a two handed weapon. Since he has two sccw as part of his 3 weapons, you apply the more specific rules of 2sccw.

Which is choose one and never get a bonus. Works fine without trying to gain personal advantage out of a black hole in the rules.

DR: the section of the rules can be titled: "Fluffy bunny slippers" for all that matters, the rules in that section are clear; you quoted 1/2 of the in the last post you quoted them:

DeathReaper wrote:This is incorrect, the text states that they are equipped with two weapons they can use...

Of course, you conveiniently snipped the rule to make it seem like they are useing the 2 weapons they are equipped with.


Fact is, that with the rest of the sentence you see that thy are equipped with 2 weapons; they can then use the weapons with the rules for the combinations. The combinations are all about equipped with; since they all only use 1 weapon.


No the 2 different special weapons does not say you are using 2 different Specials, it never says you use the 2 different; it says you choose 1 and never gain a bonus for using a second weapon(meaning when you have the choice in special weapon, and you have a normal, and you choose to use a normal that can be claimed for bonus with Normal and Special; you cannot ever claim the bonus for the normal in your possession).

Why did you quote that I stated you never use both the normal and special; then start talking about 2 different like it was relevant to the quote?

Again; finish the sentence. If you stop at the word use; your reading is true, when you finish the sentence you see that they are not using the 2 equipped weapons they are using the rules for the combinations of weapons.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Fact is, that with the rest of the sentence you see that thy are equipped with 2 weapons; they can then use the weapons with the rules for the combinations. The combinations are all about equipped with; since they all only use 1 weapon.

Until you actually read the section on 2 Sccw's which says they never get the bonus for using 2 Sccw's (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.)

It is made clear in that section that they are using 2 Sccw's.

and Nke, you did not answer my question, mind going along with the 75% of the voters that say the relic blade is two handed, and actually answer the question?

DeathReaper wrote:
Until you actually read the section on 2 Sccw's which says they never get the bonus for using 2 Sccw's (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.)

No, it says they never get a bonus for using 2 weapons. Special Weapons are never mentioned in that paragraph except in the title.

Happyjew wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Until you actually read the section on 2 Sccw's which says they never get the bonus for using 2 Sccw's (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.)

No, it says they never get a bonus for using 2 weapons. Special Weapons are never mentioned in that paragraph except in the title.

and none of this matters as you must be using two weapons to get that. Till you pick two weapons you can never be using two different special

And in order to use 2 weapons, you MUST choose a special weapon to use, and since you've chosen a special weapon, you do not get a bonus for using 2 weapons.

Happyjew wrote:And in order to use 2 weapons, you MUST choose a special weapon to use, and since you've chosen a special weapon, you do not get a bonus for using 2 weapons.

... and in order to use the choice in two different special weapons you must also be only using two weapons.

Happyjew wrote:No, it says they never get a bonus for using 2 weapons. Special Weapons are never mentioned in that paragraph except in the title.

The title details how a model fights with two Special close combat weapons, that is why Special Weapons are never mentioned, because the title of the section does that, it would be redundant to say special close combat weapon, when the intro says here are the rules for two different special close combat weapons.

They never get the bonus for using two weapons, that section is talking about special close combat weapons, so in that sentence two weapons is synonymous with two special close combat weapons.

This is not debatable.

Tri wrote:

Happyjew wrote:And in order to use 2 weapons, you MUST choose a special weapon to use, and since you've chosen a special weapon, you do not get a bonus for using 2 weapons.

... and in order to use the choice in two different special weapons you must also be only using two weapons.

Which means, if a model is equipped with 3 1-handed CCW, and only 1 is normal, then you MUST make up a rule in order to attack in close combat.