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Wait, wait, wait.


Wait.......


Was there really 5 pages of responses about a definition that has no game effect, what so ever?

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Wait, wait, wait.


Wait.......


Was there really 5 pages of responses about a definition that has no game effect, what so ever?

It is on page 6.

You get used to it.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Wait, wait, wait.


Wait.......


Was there really 5 pages of responses about a definition that has no game effect, what so ever?

I pointed this out in my first post. And look what happened to me. Look what I became. The madness grips you. It's insidious, it's infectious. You come here make your point, and then you get sucked in. Don't let our fate become yours. Run while you still have the chance. RUN.

the rules restrict us to using 2 ccw's whilst fighting in cc.

The rules do not allow us to use more than two, so if we have more than two, we need to determine which weapons to use, then consult the chart.

That is where the Relic blade comes in.

A SM has a power sword, bolt pistol, and relic blade, the only way to determine what he uses ic CC is to pick between the relic blade or the bolt pistol/power sword to use in cc.

It is two handed. I don't get how this has taken up 6 pages.

OK, six pages in and I don't get the issue: it is a special weapon that says you can't get +1A and you can't use two different special weapons at the same time. What precisely is the model supposed to do with his other hand anyway?

Homer

It's really not. It "counts as a power weapon", not "counts as a two-handed power weapon".

A green apple "counts as" an apple. It does not "count as" a lime.

edit: and there is no issue really. It's just a one handed weapon that can't benefit from another CCW. Just as if it was a two-handed weapon. But it counts as a power weapon, which is one-handed unless it said "counts as a two-handed power weapon". Which it doesn't. If you had a relic blade, power weapon, and bolt pistol you could use the relic blade or you could use the power weapon and bolt pistol when fighting in CC.

This whole thread is getting too heated. Step away from the keyboard, take a deep breath, and go for a walk or something.

There are far more polite ways to disagree, and people here don't seem to be interested in them.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Wait, wait, wait.


Wait.......


Was there really 5 pages of responses about a definition that has no game effect, what so ever?

Oh, the irony, it is lost on them.

I refuse to debate whether it is two handed or not.

But my question for you, all of you, or any of you is:

Why. Does. It. Matter?

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Oh, the irony, it is lost on them.

I refuse to debate whether it is two handed or not.

But my question for you, all of you, or any of you is:

Why. Does. It. Matter?

It matters for people equipped with a Relic blade, a power weapon, and a bolt pistol.

Since you can not use a two-handed weapon with any single-handed weapons, the question is:

how does one determine if you use the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon?

It was to illustrate the point that you have to choose between the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon to make your close combat attacks.

DeathReaper wrote:
It matters for people equipped with a Relic blade, a power weapon, and a bolt pistol.

Since you can not use a two-handed weapon with any single-handed weapons, the question is:

how does one determine if you use the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon?

It was to illustrate the point that you have to choose between the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon to make your close combat attacks.

Yes, but that only matters if you use Kei's convoluted interpretation of equipping multiple weapons. I'm not going to.

DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Oh, the irony, it is lost on them.

I refuse to debate whether it is two handed or not.

But my question for you, all of you, or any of you is:

Why. Does. It. Matter?

It matters for people equipped with a Relic blade, a power weapon, and a bolt pistol.

Since you can not use a two-handed weapon with any single-handed weapons, the question is:

how does one determine if you use the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon?

It was to illustrate the point that you have to choose between the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon to make your close combat attacks.

The funny thing is, that while I disagree with the relic Blade being two handed; the reason you want it to be is perfectly valid.

A few pages ago i was still in this discussion; then I spent the day out with my wife and newborn, returning to almost a full page that I really just couldn't care enough to read through and respond to.

I did, however, notice biccat's response since it was near my last post; and it has to do with what I am about to state.

I can buy into the fluff of the relic blade making it 2-handed; GW has declared in the last few Codices that Fluff = Rules.

However;

The rules later declare the relic blade to "count as" a power weapon(with several other rules). This is what biccat had to say about that:

biccat wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Where exactly is the sentence: a relic blade is a two-handed power weapon?

Because I see: "Relic blades are two-handed swords or axes that are sheathed in an Armour-sundering power field"

and: "A relic Blade counts as a Power weapon whose hits are resolved at Strength 6."

Which are contradictory.

Those sentences aren't exactly contradictory.

It says that a Relic Blade is X (the "fluff" part). However, it counts as Y (the "rules" part). *note that I think the first sentence isn't fluff, especially given the "counts as" language in the second quoted section.

So we know that a relic blade is a two-handed weapon. However, we don't know if it counts as (for purposes of the rules) a 2-handed weapon.

I would suggest that it should count as a two-handed weapon because it is a two-handed weapon. But I suppose you could come down on the other side, particularly if power weapons are defined as one-handed.

The relic blade "being" 2-handed, but then "counting-as" a power weapon is contradictory; you cannot both be X and count as Y; the whole point of the count-as rules is that the item x that counts as y ceases to be x and is considered y in all cases. For example I have a Space marine Sgt model with a power-fist(only power fist on the table), I inform my opponent that I have not paid for the power fist in my list build and that it will "Count-as" a normal CCW in this game(and this is truly how I set my list up); I canot in tha asault phase decide to use that power fist as a power fist instead of the normal CCW that it counts as; because while it is a power fist, it counts as a normal CCW, meaning it ceases to be a power fist.

DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Oh, the irony, it is lost on them.

I refuse to debate whether it is two handed or not.

But my question for you, all of you, or any of you is:

Why. Does. It. Matter?

It matters for people equipped with a Relic blade, a power weapon, and a bolt pistol.

Since you can not use a two-handed weapon with any single-handed weapons, the question is:

how does one determine if you use the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon?

It was to illustrate the point that you have to choose between the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon to make your close combat attacks.

Huh? You get to pick one "special" weapon to use any particular turn. One is a power weapon, which may be combined with an extra CCW, for which a pistol also counts. One is a relic blade, which may, or may not, be two-handed, but regardless cannot benefit from the +1A.

This is really, really explicit in the main book. Whether the Relic blade is actually two-handed or not affects that not at all. You people have been arguing for 6 pages about nothing.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Oh, the irony, it is lost on them.

I refuse to debate whether it is two handed or not.

But my question for you, all of you, or any of you is:

Why. Does. It. Matter?

It matters for people equipped with a Relic blade, a power weapon, and a bolt pistol.

Since you can not use a two-handed weapon with any single-handed weapons, the question is:

how does one determine if you use the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon?

It was to illustrate the point that you have to choose between the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon to make your close combat attacks.

Huh? You get to pick one "special" weapon to use any particular turn. One is a power weapon, which may be combined with an extra CCW, for which a pistol also counts. One is a relic blade, which may, or may not, be two-handed, but regardless cannot benefit from the +1A.

This is really, really explicit in the main book. Whether the Relic blade is actually two-handed or not affects that not at all. You people have been arguing for 6 pages about nothing.

If the Relic blade were 2-handed then it sits outside the rules for 2 Single-handed weapons.

The rule you are referencing is for 2 different single-handed Special weapons.

DR is quite astute in why this matters, if an honour-guard member has purchased a relic Blade, and the relic blade is 2-handed, then he would have 1 2-handed CCW, and 2 Single-handed CCWs; only 1 of which is special. If that is the case, and we extrapolate from the only reference to 2-handed weapons on page 42(that "if a model is using a 2-handed weapon it never gains a bonus attack from a second single-handed weapon") to mean that being armed with a 2-handed weapon and any number of single handed weapon grants us a choice of whether to use the single handed or 2-handed weapons; then the honour-guard member could strike either twice with the relic blade at S6, or 3x with the Power weapon and Bolt pistol at S4(when not charging)

Kommissar Kel wrote:The relic blade "being" 2-handed, but then "counting-as" a power weapon is contradictory; you cannot both be X and count as Y; the whole point of the count-as rules is that the item x that counts as y ceases to be x and is considered y in all cases. For example I have a Space marine Sgt model with a power-fist(only power fist on the table), I inform my opponent that I have not paid for the power fist in my list build and that it will "Count-as" a normal CCW in this game(and this is truly how I set my list up); I canot in tha asault phase decide to use that power fist as a power fist instead of the normal CCW that it counts as; because while it is a power fist, it counts as a normal CCW, meaning it ceases to be a power fist.

But that is not quite right, It is not contradictory. Something can be two handed AND count as a power weapon, Just like something can be a bolt pistol and count as a twin linked weapon when fired.

Being a power fist and counting as a normal close combat weapon is not a good comparison.

Being a two handed weapon and counting as a power weapon is not in contradiction with each other.

The thing that makes it a contradiction is that the fluff states it to be a two-handed weapon(with undefined properties). It then goes on to discuss other things.

Then in a whole new paragraph it tells us that a relic blade counts as a power weapon(with additional defined rules).

Had it all been in the same paragraph i would be right there with you; had the declaration of the relic blade being 2-handed been the last sentence of the first paragraph; I would be right there with you.
How is being 1 weapon and counting as another weapon not the same thing as the relic blade; I am pretty sure that is exactly what I am saying.

Counting-as having a weapon characteristic is not the same thing though(such as the twin-linked example you gave).

2-handed power weapons, are not the same thing as regular power weapons, which are not the same things as 2-handed weapons "Sheathed in an armour-sundering power field".

It can only either be a 2-handed weapon "Sheathed in an armour-sundering power field"(which only has rules for the two-handed weapon part); or a Power weapon(defined as single-handed by the FAQ) that grants S6, and cannot gain a bonus attack for a second CCW(which would be covered by it being 2-handed).

Two-handed and Power weapon can both apply to the same weapon. For Example, a Glaive Encarmine is a two-handed master-crafted power weapon.(P.50 BA codex)

The relic blade counts as a power weapon, and by the first line it denotes it as a two-handed weapon. (It says two-handed sword or axe, but we know swords and axes are weapons)

I do not get where you are getting the "the two handed is fluff" since it clearly defines the Relic blade as a two handed weapon that counts as a power weapon.

Alright I've had enough of this.

Relic blades are really big swords that space marines can use one handed, even though they are two handed weapons, because space marines are boss. However, space marines cannot use their other hand to hold another weapon at the same time, so they simply make lewd gestures at the opponents they are chopping to giblets.

DeathReaper wrote:Two-handed and Power weapon can both apply to the same weapon. For Example, a Glaive Encarmine is a two-handed master-crafted power weapon.(P.50 BA codex)

The relic blade counts as a power weapon, and by the first line it denotes it as a two-handed weapon. (It says two-handed sword or axe, but we know swords and axes are weapons)

I do not get where you are getting the "the two handed is fluff" since it clearly defines the Relic blade as a two handed weapon that counts as a power weapon.

Yes, a weapon can be a two-handed power weapon.

Yes, a weapon ca count as a two-handed power weapon.

No, a two-handed power weapon and a Power weapon are not the same thing.

No, two-handed is not a sub-type, nor additional rule; it is a weapon type(analogous to Rapid fire, heavy, or assault)

The first line also denotes it to be "Sheathed in an armour-sundering power field"; mind quoting the rules for this, I cannot seem to find them?

The very minute you find me the rules for "Sheathed in an armour-sundering power field", is the very minute the two-handed stops being fluff(but, of course it still counts as a single-handed weapon; so will still be a moot point).

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Oh, the irony, it is lost on them.

I refuse to debate whether it is two handed or not.

But my question for you, all of you, or any of you is:

Why. Does. It. Matter?

It matters for people equipped with a Relic blade, a power weapon, and a bolt pistol.

Since you can not use a two-handed weapon with any single-handed weapons, the question is:

how does one determine if you use the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon?

It was to illustrate the point that you have to choose between the Relic blade or the Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon to make your close combat attacks.

Huh? You get to pick one "special" weapon to use any particular turn. One is a power weapon, which may be combined with an extra CCW, for which a pistol also counts. One is a relic blade, which may, or may not, be two-handed, but regardless cannot benefit from the +1A.

This is really, really explicit in the main book. Whether the Relic blade is actually two-handed or not affects that not at all. You people have been arguing for 6 pages about nothing.

If the Relic blade were 2-handed then it sits outside the rules for 2 Single-handed weapons.

The rule you are referencing is for 2 different single-handed Special weapons.

DR is quite astute in why this matters, if an honour-guard member has purchased a relic Blade, and the relic blade is 2-handed, then he would have 1 2-handed CCW, and 2 Single-handed CCWs; only 1 of which is special. If that is the case, and we extrapolate from the only reference to 2-handed weapons on page 42(that "if a model is using a 2-handed weapon it never gains a bonus attack from a second single-handed weapon") to mean that being armed with a 2-handed weapon and any number of single handed weapon grants us a choice of whether to use the single handed or 2-handed weapons; then the honour-guard member could strike either twice with the relic blade at S6, or 3x with the Power weapon and Bolt pistol at S4(when not charging)

Yes. I know. What I am saying is that situation, where you have a choice between 2 attacks at str 6 or 3 at str 4, is true whether or not the relic blade is two handed.

I am well aware of everything you are saying, I am telling you it all leads to the same result. You are arguing about nothing.

Edit: Oh, and that's not "astute", it's "sophomoric".

@Sir_Prometheus. It is and is not moot. There are 2 groups of people. 1 group says that since the model is equipped with 2 special 1-handed CCW and a normal 1-handed CCW, they never get the bonus attack. The other group says that you can choose which two weapons you fight with and possibly can have a bonus attack. For the members of group 1, if it is a single-handed CCW, then you would never get a bonus attack. If it's 2-handed then you could choose to use your other weapons and get a bonus attack. For members of group 2, however, whether or not it is 2-handed is a moot point.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Yes. I know. What I am saying is that situation, where you have a choice between 2 attacks at str 6 or 3 at str 4, is true whether or not the relic blade is two handed.

I am well aware of everything you are saying, I am telling you it all leads to the same result. You are arguing about nothing.

Edit: Oh, and that's not "astute", it's "sophomoric".

Actually sophomoric is not the correct term, please do not use derogatory terms.

DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Yes. I know. What I am saying is that situation, where you have a choice between 2 attacks at str 6 or 3 at str 4, is true whether or not the relic blade is two handed.

I am well aware of everything you are saying, I am telling you it all leads to the same result. You are arguing about nothing.

Edit: Oh, and that's not "astute", it's "sophomoric".

Actually sophomoric is not the correct term, please do not use derogatory terms.

The point, sir, of a derogatory term, is to deride. I had due cause to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:@Sir_Prometheus. It is and is not moot. There are 2 groups of people. 1 group says that since the model is equipped with 2 special 1-handed CCW and a normal 1-handed CCW, they never get the bonus attack. The other group says that you can choose which two weapons you fight with and possibly can have a bonus attack. For the members of group 1, if it is a single-handed CCW, then you would never get a bonus attack. If it's 2-handed then you could choose to use your other weapons and get a bonus attack. For members of group 2, however, whether or not it is 2-handed is a moot point.

OK. Group 1 is wrong. You can have many weapons on the model, and you can use 2 one handed or 1 2 handed weapon each assault phase, as you choose. Everything else works out the same.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I can buy into the fluff of the relic blade making it 2-handed; GW has declared in the last few Codices that Fluff = Rules.

No they haven't.

All gw did was use fluff to explain/faq a rule.

You are basing this assumption erroneously that gw sets and uses precedent.

They do not. That's the only 'precedent' that gw has set and uses.

I now return you to your regular programming...

Plasma siphon only works as GW says it does when the fluff for weapons is viewed as rules(even though their is a box-out of "Plasma Weapons" in the Armoury).

The list of what are daemons has clearly taken fluff into account(and in at least 1 case even that doesn't answer why the unit is considered daemons)

Tyranids special Character rules only function if the fluff that they are their respective base Nid-types is viewed as rules.

Necron "Lord of Fire" specifically tells you that Fluff is rules for what it effects.

Last several books all have at least 1 instance of Fluff = Rules; be that written in to the rules or via FAQ(since the rules would not necessarily function otherwise).

This has nothing to do with precedent; it has to do with trend: they are trending towards Fluff=Rules as a hard stance.

I had due cause to do so.

No you didn't.

Please don't.

Thanks.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:OK. Group 1 is wrong. You can have many weapons on the model, and you can use 2 one handed or 1 2 handed weapon each assault phase, as you choose. Everything else works out the same.

There's a rule allowing you to pick what weapons you want to use? What page number is that on?
edit: Also - can you point me out to the rules that allow models with 3 weapons to participate in combat?

Don't you get to pick if you have 2 special weapons rigeld? Or did I miss the point...

A dude has a TH and a PW somehow, he can pick which one he uses each turn, no?

motyak wrote:Don't you get to pick if you have 2 special weapons rigeld? Or did I miss the point...

A dude has a TH and a PW somehow, he can pick which one he uses each turn, no?

Sure. Now throw in, say, a bolt pistol. Or power weapon. Or chainsword.

Oh right you were asking if there is a rule for choosing between three weapons? My bad. Yeah I got no clue